Level of devastation in New Orleans: Does the rest of the nation "get it"?

That's the question being asked this morning on WWL radio (870AM, New Orleans, but you can pick it up all over the country sometimes).

Being originally from there and having returned a couple of times since Katrina, I don't think they do.

I've been through my share of hurricanes. Most recently, Category 3 Ivan devastated my current home town. The gigantic debris piles, the blue roofs, the demolished buildings and bridges... we're STILL cleaning up, and it's been well over a year.

I never thought I would see anything like that again. It was the worst I had personally been through (although I was very young for Betsy, and saw the effects of Andrew and Camille shortly after each had hit).

But the devastation that Katrina has wrought on New Orleans simply dwarfs anything in modern history. It puts every other hurricane that anyone still alive can remember to shame (including Andrew and including Camille). Hardly "just another hurricane", it is another order of magnitude altogether.

Besides the thousand-plus dead, many many more thousands are homeless and will likely never return home. Large (and I mean LARGE) swaths of the city are dark, three months after the fact. You can drive through mile after mile after mile on I-10 and see waterlines on the buildings 5 to 10 feet high. The debris fields dwarf anything left by the spate of storms that hit Florida last year (and I think I remember calculating that Pensacola had something like 5 Empire State Buildings' worth of vegetative debris alone).

Only a small portion of the population of N.O. proper has returned. There are few jobs, but perhaps fewer people top fill them. Fast food restaurants, even in the suburbs, are generally drive-through only because they don't have employees. Lines at banks are miles long. Doctors are scarce, even in the suburbs.

The miniature Christmas town display at the recently (partially) re-opened Lakeside Mall has rescue vehicles, blue roofs and "numbered X's" on the little houses, marking live and dead bodies found inside (I think there were zero bodies, so that, at least, is good). But the dark sense of humor is a cover. People are trying to regain some sense of normalcy, but everyone there is still numb.

A city of one million people is suffering from post traumatic stress disorder.

My fear is that, when people see national news stories on the Audubon Zoo re-opening (only on weekends for the indefinite future) and upcoming Mardi Gras parades (a greatly scaled back carnival), they'll think "Good, things are getting back to normal down there." And they'll forget. I fear they're already forgetting.

I didn't even get near any of the worst parts of town, and what I saw stunned and amazed me. This from someone who has been "de-sensitized" by two recent Category 3 direct hits.

I realize there are parts of the world that have recently suffered even worse (Pakistan earthquake, the tsunami). But we're talking about our own here, our country.

I don't think the rest of the nation "gets it".

and I hope this is not ignored by the media. It is our national challenge and we appear to be kind of yawning our way through it.

Basically, one of our most famous cities has virtually been wiped off the coast. I don't think a nuke would have done much worse.

The level of toxins released in the area might not be radioactive, but we really have no idea how bad it is, and that's a measure of just how bad it is. Off the scale. Might just as well have been a nuke, just about, I agree.

It's funny, I keep thinking of myself as persevering about something negative, that I can't get Katrina, and the aftermath that continues, off my mind. I find myself writing about it in posts, being reminded about it whenever I start discussing politics. I don't mean to use it as a cheap example. Heck, it wasn't a "cheap" example, it was a terrible expensive one, a very high price. I feel like I'm the crazy one, that I can't seem to get it out of my head, but maybe I should feel better about that.

Last night when the storms blew through here in St Louis, I was thinking about Katrina again too.

My husband and I watched as New Orleans suffered and was left to die. We watched people desperate for help, waiting, waiting, and grew more and more alarmed as help didn't come. We saw reports, and read accounts, of help being turned away by FEMA.

Now, the country's attention has drifted to other things, and I have no idea how much the rest of the country know about the current condition. I live just north of Houston, so we see more news here about the storm victims, since many have settled here.

As bad as it is for the ones here who are trying to regain some sense of normality, at least, I think, Houston is not a completely alien city, many people from La. have relatives or friends here, if nothing else. I think of storm victims sent to places like Minnesota, or North Dakota, and while intending no disrespect for those states, or their people, I think how strange the food, and the weather, and the everyday speech must seem to those already traumatized.

Then I think of our troops, fighting and dying in Iraq, where we have no business being, and how much better it would be if our National Guard were back in this country, helping to rebuild the Gulf Coast, and doing what it was meant to do. Even if he had done everything else right (which he has not) Bush would be forever damned in my heart and eyes for his abandonment of New Orleans and the rest of the places savaged by Katrina.

i have stood on the trinity bomb site, family members have stood at nagasaki and hiroshima peace park

the bomb crater is not a pimple on the butt on the area of devastation caused by this storm

more people died in the bombings because it's a different situation, it's war, nobody could evacuate

however, hiroshima is one city, nagasaki is one city

we are talking towns wiped off the map such as long beach, mississippi all the way to creole and cameron, louisiana at the texas border

this is what we mean by not getting it

the brain doesn't understand the geographic area involved

i read posts on the internet during the catastrophe of people disputing that 90,000 square miles had been affected by the storm, well, their puny human brains can't comprehend a storm of that size
but i got in my car and i saw it, maybe that's the only way, is for people to see for themselves, when you drive hour after hour and see storm issues, then finally it comes to you the size of the thing

when your weatherman tells you that a hurricane is the power of many, many thermonuclear weapons, he wasn't freakin kidding

even people who care can't picture the size of this thing, it's just too much

I think you're right, it must be beyond imagining. It is really something to hear you speak of actually seeing the results of a bomb, to compare the aftermath. No, I didn't know it was that bad.

When I think about the damage, I just remember driving the highway along the shore, everyday when I went to school there. The first time we got there in March, and it was a beautiful place. After living in Alaska for a few years, it was exotic. I wonder what it must look like now. All I know is, I don't really want to know what it looks like now. That bridge, it was an awesome drive, but scary. I remember having nightmares, after the second trip, about my children drowning, off that huge bridge. In my nightmare, we wound up in the water. I had more than one child then, later, and in my dream the horror was that I couldn't keep them both above water. One of those terrible nightmares you never forget, I remember waking up thinking I was going to figure out how to do that, how to manage to save us, so help me, and I know in the back of my mind I tried to figure out how for days later. Never forget that nightmare. Now I know I never will, because in my mind, it's part of a larger nightmare.

I personally 'get it' because I live on the Gulf coast and I've already been over there and seen it first hand. We have family in N.O. Or rather we did.

The nuke I was thinking of was more H bomb type.. the unimaginable, I guess.

sometimes my brain hurts just thinking abt it

To me, this is the priority for our nation - to rebuild one of our great cities and the surrounding Gulf region that suffered so terribly. . .and yet, this seems like a one-week drama that got played out and forgotten as soon as this Administration figured out the Prez couldn't get a rise in approval ratings by dropping by down there every other day.

If we can't rebuild our own country and the infrastructure, we have no business deploying troops anywhere else or handing out money to any other nation.

to quietly bow out of Iraq. Face saving for GWB if he needed it, but that would have taken wisdom.

I agree. We tend to have short attention spans and wander off, from time to time, but I think most people, if they have any heart at all, are still tuned in to the drastic situation.

Over Thanksgiving break, I helped my grandson work up a college term paper on Katrina and the ecological devastation. When you see the numbers laid out in front of you, it is shocking. Hopefully, Mother Nature can remedy some of the mess, but I truly can't imagine how anyone can put that puzzle back together.

My heart bleeds for those who are trying to restore their lives in NO, and for those who will never come back.

Bless you for writing and for reminding us to remember.

dire as you say, and voices such as yours need to be heard loud and often.

And the media is doing what it does best... ignoring it, letting it fall through the memory hole.
Denying the things which happened, we all know they happened, at least those of us who know how vile and dark mankind under stress can be.
Now they ignore the aftermath, lie about the true number of victims, and carry on with their insane prattle about normalcy.

In six more months the scab will be complete, and posts like yours will be viewed with complete disbelief.

I have seen this happen over and over, stories large and small. If it does not have "legs" it won't get the right treatment and may even miss the history books.

We don't hear anything about FEMA refugee camps either.

For some, it's too much to comprehend without seeing it and others simply don't want to "get it". People want the quick, happy ending that we're promised in movies and on tv, all delivered in a prescribed time frame. Otherwise, we tune out.

Talked to him Sat night. He's sleeping in his car in front of his house. He has to be in town to deal with the insurance. His house is destroyed, there is no power, he's going to find out today if he still has a job. He says you can't imagine how bad it is till you see it for yourself. The worst thing is his wife refuses to move, they are rebuilding their house :eyes:

... like that.

My brother recently slept in his devastated house, on the second floor. The first floor was inundated by the flash flood when the 17th St. levee broke about 100 yards away. He did so so he could meet the adjuster the next morning.

He's moved his kids and most his job 5 hours away.

And he is one of many thousands.

My mind still goes numb when I cross over the high rise going east.It is literally mile after mile of utter devastation, as far as the eye can see. Hundreds of thousands of displaced persons, hundreds of thousands of dwellings and apartments decimated by the floodwaters and wind

Besides which, the media no longer cares as it is 'old news'.

New Orleanians will just have to do this themselves as best they can, over many many years. In some ways, that is good, so that the feds don't try to turn New Orleans into some kind of DisneyLand, but man they sure could use some help and not the obstructionism of FEMA

Hey, if they could do it for one missing girl, they can do it for an entire city! (and still perhaps thousands who are missing, or at least unaccounted for)

to state "the thousand plus dead", when we know that there are ten thousand plus more who are missing, the vast majority of whom are surely likely to have perished.

... acknowledge that most of those are simply unnaccounted for because they've relocated and haven't ended up on that database. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-21-katrina-missing_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA)

Do you have any idea what it is like to put families back together and find friends after a million people simply left on a moments notice? I had time to call my brother and parents, and that was it before the storm. Everyone thought they would be able to return within a few days. I have only recenlty discovered the whereabouts of a few dozen of my friends and relatives, and some, I still don't know. There are still some close friends who are unaware that my mother died as an evacuee in Shreveport.

Undoubtedly, the death toll will rise (and is rising as a few people find loved ones in the worst-hit parts of town). But saying there are 10,000 missing, "the vast majority of whom are surely likely to have perished", is rumor-mongering. That is not simply plausible given the lay of the land in New Orleans, the nature of the storm and the level of evacuation. I am intimately familiar with all of these things. Are you?

I have an uncle that I have heard is alive, but have no actual confirmation of that other than a friend heard it. I have friends who have no idea where they will be living next month, much less next year or after that. Even those that plan to return, are hanging in limbo. It is so sad to see this happening to such a great city.

apologise for doubting your knowledge of the matter.

I assumed that the people who issued the figures of the missing would have sifted out any whose whereabouts could not be traced, without reason to believe that they had died. It doesn't excuse my presumption towards you, but in these kinds of situations, where you know the neocon authorities have, as always guiltily saught to hide the truth, it seems to me to be highly probable that the extreme antithesis of their claims will be likely to be close to the truth. What I had felt were possibly truly wild theories about 9/11, the anthrax business and Katrina now strike me as eminently probable. Is it any wonder if my antenna twitch like mad when I think some innocent soul has inadvertently given the neocons something of a pass in relation to the massacre?

In fact, of course, in some measure, at least, what you say is good news. Sorry again.

... with all the rumor-mongering that surrounds things like this (and with hurricanes, it's especially personal).

It's bad enough that over 1000 have died, and possibly a few more to be found. In my mind, nothing more needs to be said about the failure to protect New Orleans and save these people.

I remember listening to a CNN reporter live on the air the evening of the day Katrina hit. Everyone was thinking N.O. had dodged the bullet. She was calling the anchor desk talking about the repeated trips she had been making with rescue crews (local, of course) trying to save people who were trapped in their attics or on roofs. She was talking about hearing screams for help, seeing bodies, and not being able to do enough. She was crying.

It simply was not realistic to have expected local authorities to evacuate the entire city. Local authorities were there in as great a number as they could realistically muster during and after such a catastrophe. Only federal agencies and the military could have done more at this crucial early stage. The fact that a CNN reporter was out there doing what they should have been doing (and were much more capable of doing) speaks volumes. The arguments that they couldn't go in until "asked" were and are completely ridiculous, and patently and demonstrably false.

Not to rant more. It just gets to me.

Thanks for the (unnecessary) apologies.

I got the strong impression that they were too keen and too competent in relation to their capacity, for the adminstration's purposes. Didn't they want to take over from them - instead of working side by said with them?

The Final Solution aspect of it, though, seemed most graphically illustarted by the martial law imposed, and seemingly enforced, solely on the Afro-American people effectively forcibly trapped and detained in such sites as the superdome; just in case some of them suspected that they might not receive life-saving supplies of water, etc., and went looking for some, or for some kind souls in hotels, for example, to share with them. Or did I get that wrong?

"having a go at the locals". It is, of course, Bush et al and the Right who have attacked the locals.

Your post mentioning the number of deaths just got me thinking about watching it happen that night, when the federal government could have helped, and I just vented about it. Still gets to me (always will).

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then, I can't believe you expect anyone to pay money for it.

Really.

He (sorry don't remember his name) was talking about how the water had picked up everything in his studio and deposited it at the door. They had a hard time getting in because of it.

His aluminum sculptures were all overturned and filled with fetid water. His said the stench was unbelievable!

Water marks are everywhere - inside and outside of buildings...varying heights, depending on how severe it got in that area.

I was thinking this morning listening to this piece, that it would be nice to see some pictures of what New Orleans looks like now (3 months later). What kind of progress, if any, has been made to return NO to a viable and vibrant city again.

And what about places like Gulfport, MS? Haven't heard too much about how clean-up is going there.

I've seen some pics of individual homes and such, but it would be interesting to see a big overview of the city or overview pics of neighborhoods or the waterfront, etc.

i thought of taking photographs but i quickly realized that it was too large to photograph, you can't photograph acres after acres and miles after miles

however, there is a site called google.maps that can help you a little

put in a street or an address, for example, try 888 harrison avenue new orleans

hit satellite to see before katrina

hit katrina to see why that entire neighborhood has been destroyed

zoom in or out for a better look

i drove around there, it's beyond belief, this was a rich neighborhood of fine gardens and houses, now it is nothing but ruins

and that's just a small portion of lakeview

zoom in, zoom out, you eventually discover that the "katrina" map doesn't even cover all of the devastation, it is centered on new orleans

for instance, put in 13152 chef menteur highway new orleans, this is the buddhist temple in little vietnam, all of little vietnam is destroyed and w.out power, the temple has serious damage and is tarped together -- yet it is already off of google's coverage

NO ONE has a complete photo record of the size of this thing, it's just too much

It's really amazing that this isn't getting more national coverage of how the recovery is going down there and asking for further assistance from the nation.

Perhaps if a fair amount of people are returning they don't so much need the manpower down there, but I would think that there would be a HUGE demand for equipment. So much obviously got ruined. It's mind-boggling and baffling.

Thanks for the google tip, btw (I never used that function before).

the wife of our (Episcopal) bishop who has been volunteering on the Mississippi coast as a nurse at a church-run relief center. She said that the devastation was unbelievable and that people were still coming in for assistance by the hundreds.

My parish is organizing a volunteer group to go down there for the first week in January, and I'll be part of it, thanks to being able to cash in some frequent flier miles.

Very cool :-)


(and using your own money/miles to do it too!)

I was just thinking the other day about how we move on so quickly from these types of stories...as if we don't have the attention span to keep caring.

I agree that we need much more media coverage of the ongoing struggles in NO, so that people continue to give and to help.

Like saving his ass.

This administration got all of the "spin" that they could out of this disaster and have now forgotten about it.

I hate to say it, but I think New Orleans is fucked.

They toured through the city and were having a difficult time getting their minds wrapped around what they saw and where and how to even start. They were professional city rebuilding consultants, after disasters, and they said that even watching and researching as much as they had, they weren't prepared. And they didn't travel to the south of NO or Mississippi, just saw the city of New Orleans.

I didn't get it until I saw it, and still cannot believe it. If I were in my 20's and unemployed, I'd be somewhere on the gulf coast living in a tent, eating Food Not Bombs food (or the like) and helping recovery. Alas I am not, but would encourage anyone to go check it out. Go help or even be a witness.

People live like this all over the world, and always have; we don't want to think about the monumental suffering in these far-away places, other than pay taxes for some foreign aid and support the charities of our choice. Having this sort of misery ON OUR SHORES is different in one way, but it's the same in that many don't want to reach out to masses of suffering people when they have their own daily concerns.

To see New Orleans as a third-world place (which indeed it seems upon close examination of the Ninth Ward and some other neighborhoods) is to raise the question: To whom are we attached in kinship? Does the average white middle-class American have more in common with a poor black New Orleanian because they're both American citizens, or with a white middle-class Canadian or Scot?

there seems to be a well-planned campaign in the media to make it about blacks, so that white people elsewhere can be distanced from the devastation

i know three people dead, all white, not yet on the official lists altho they've been buried for some time now, so i will conclude the authorities don't intend to place them on the lists

for what it's worth, the official list that has been released, last time i saw it, had about 49 percent white, 49 percent black, the rest "other" deceased

but you only hear abt poor blacks being displaced or drowned

you do not hear of the entire academic and professional class living in lakeview and to a certain extent in new orleans east being displaced

you don't hear of the mixed neighborhoods of gentilly and the many elderly who died there, white and black

you don't hear of the complete destruction of little vietnam

i have now met people on the internet who think that the dead and displaced of st. bernard parish are poor black people -- they aren't, they are blue collar and small business owning white people

the media is trying to make this abt something that happened to poor, sick, and old people that couldn't possibly happen to YOU

and they seem to have largely succeeded

it's frustrating

the average middle class white person prob. has a great deal in common w. the average middle class white person of lakeview, gentilly, or st. bernard but if he is cleverly steered away from realizing what he has in common -- or even if he is kept unaware that Bad Things are being allowed to happen to middle class white people -- then all your other questions become rather beside the point

the disaster didn't just happen to the poor or to blacks

it happened to everyone, one of my friends who died owned a business, the other couple owned several houses

if i hammer on this issue a lot, it's because no one outside the area gets it that EVERYONE was affected

just another example of nobody gets it, i guess

n/t

I had to add 3 pages after the hurricane. I was told by the mother of a soldier in Iraq: "I was honored to have read it." just leave me your email if you want me to send it.

Mayor Nagin spoke at a 5th Ward church yesterday--to an audience composed of Katrina evacuees. (This article appears on the front page of today's Houston Chronicle; our city's connection to Louisiana goes 'way back.)

First, he said, the city's levee system must be "world class." He said Dutch and German officials were being consulted about how to get the levees to pre-Katrina strength by next year — and to help explore making them stronger.

He also said officials at all levels must provide tax incentives that encourage businesses to locate in New Orleans.

On housing, a topic that dominated much of the public dialogue, Nagin said FEMA officials had begun identifying safe places to set up mobile homes for as many as 6,400 returning families.

Getting people and businesses back to the city is critical, Nagin said, as the city tries to recover from its $200 million deficit. He expressed frustration at delays for federal relief funds, saying the city shouldn't have to "beg" to get back on its feet.

He urged evacuees to help by writing state and federal lawmakers and speaking out to others so they don't forget about pledges to rebuild the city and keep it a colorful, vibrant place.

www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/05/katrina/3487259.html

Many in the audience let their frustrations show.

For the nation at large, Katrina is an old story.

OT, but your Mayor White earned a great deal of good karma when he donated part of the Houston grant to the SE Texas Food Bank, since we not only have Katrina evacuees but are also dealing with our own hurricane. I'm sure you know already, but he gave us $50,000 of the $100,000 that Houston was awarded- and it was sorely needed over here. After Gammage serves 2 terms, maybe we can have Governor White again (tho this time a more successful Gov White!). :)

The Katrina story is old news. We need to find out what Britney Spears is doing. I heard she has a flat belly again.

first hand. My youngest daughter was in her third year at LSU's Dental School, which had the basement and first floor flooded. What was once one of the finest Dental schools in the states has been reduced to mass confusion. She has been upset not only for her only losses and inconveniences but those of her patients who were mainly from the Ninth Ward area of New Orleans.
I was able to take her back to her apartment two weeks after Katrina and it was otherworldly. Boats, of all sizes, from rescue operations were left where they stopped running, cars parked on the raised grass medians to prevent flood damage (to no avail), the inevitable watermark everywhere. Driving around one of the once most populace cities in America and not seeing a single functioning stoplight. Not seeing a single person in blocks of residential areas, but every single building had the eerie "red X" on the front to show it had been visited by a search team. The top quad showed the date, and the bottom quad showed if bodies were found or not, jeez it was eerie.
Then while were in the apartment the only sound we could hear were helicopters constantly flying over every two or three minutes.
Coupled with fact armed National Guardsmen were stationed every two or three blocks apart, it was as close to third world as I can imagine the U.S. ever being.
I love New Orleans,my mother's family is from Kenner. I was born and raised in Louisiana and have lived my whole life here. My wife and I Honeymooned in in the French Quarter. But I don't think it will ever be the same.
Maybe it will be better. It could be better, but not with this administration, not with Republicans controlling Congress.

We live every day knowing that tomorrow we could be hit by "the Big One." I have seen the devistation wrought by earthquakes and floods. Hubby had just driven through the Oakland Cypress Structure before it collapsed during the Loma Prieta quake. And no place is "safe;" Nature always has surprises for the complacent. I can only imagine what N.O. looks like. If I had the resources, both financial and personal, I would go help. As it is, all I can do is send positive thoughts in that direction.

If you haven't been through that type of devastation, you can't imagine it, but MOST progressives, except for an alleged few on this thread :eyes:, feel tremendous empathy and compassion for the suffering.

Even if they can't donate anything tangible. Compassion is free.

I'm a Californian and I agree completely.

Anyone with a heart can empathize. But I really don't think you can fully comprehend it until you live through it, just as I can't understand the aftermath of an earthquake. We are 2 months out from a Cat 3 hurricane which caused little tidal flooding, and yet probably 80% of area roofs have blue tarps over them. Debris is everywhere- in piles by the streets, in people's yards, and still scattered about in places where people have been unable to pick it up yet. Electricity is still not fully functioning in some areas. There are some stores and restaraunts that are still closed, especially the local and smaller ones. There are even entire sections of the 2 area malls that are still closed. There are some businesses that have closed and will never reopen.

Many people are not living in their homes, and in many cases families are not even able to live under the same roof. Instead, they are split up and staying with family or friends who were lucky enough to escape substantial damage to their homes. There are some people who have been unable to return or who have decided not to return to the area. Unemployment is increasing as well.

Insurance companies are fighting payouts tooth and nail, and contractors aren't making things any easier. Forget finding a "good" contractor or one you can trust- it can take 2 or 3 weeks just to get an estimate from the first contractor willing to come to your house.

My area didn't even see the complete devastation that the Delta did, and yet it will never be the same. People thinking or only hoping that New Orleans can be recreated exactly as it was are dreaming. It will never be the same, and neither will much of the Gulf Coast.

andrew, camille, and the rest are a pimple on the butt of this

however, news like re-opening the zoo is important

people don't give or care abt lost causes, they want to feel that their contribution is doing more than throwing dollars into the crapper

i have driven thru some of the worst hit areas of orleans now, i think if this nation forgets, that violence will be brewing in future years, you do not destroy entire educated middle class extended families w.out reaping a harvest, the rumblings from lakeview are small but growing, in the poor black areas i think there is more experience w. being crapped on by the gov't, but in upper middle class and rich white areas, there is no such experience, and i think rage will be an inevitability if there isn't proper compensation and levee protection provided in future years

people are making the comparisons between the outpouring of help for three buildings down in new york and the calls for budget responsibility when uncounted towns and cities are destroyed in louisiana

no, they don't get it

we all know there is not yet a final count of the dead bodies

but i have not even seen a count of the numbers of destroyed towns, and you know there are many from waveland to creole

this isn't just about new orleans, this is about hundreds of miles of coast

nobody gets it who hasn't been here and seen it

To tragedy...

millions collect their insurance and rebuild on the same spot, next to a river, ocean, dry hillsides and even near earthquakes and volcanoes. The "but it is so nice here TODAY" consider everyone else at fault so they must PAY! Perhaps few know that they will pay for this carelessness over and over with every type of insurance policy, and every type of current taxes and more special taxes!
NO should have been left as only the French Quarter and whatever was still usable. To rebuild on the same soggy ground is the stupidest thing any human can think of, but of course the carpetbaggers will move in and buy uninsured properties up cheap and sell them off at high profit margins, and the loop will be complete!

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well thank you anyway for taking the time. :-(

But, average as it might have been, I really went after that attitude I saw, and hurts that it's all gone now. Anyone else that might have held such silly, thoughtless views might, just might, have had a new thought or two about it, if they'd have read it.

I kinda thought that was the reason we're here in the first place. Personally, my thoughts are about all I have to give right now, at this point in my life.

while i appreciate your passion, the person you were debating did not come here to debate, he came here to cause grief to katrina victims, i've encountered him before

yes, i hit alert and i do not apologize, debate is fine w. those who want sincere debate, but not all who sign up are sincere, some join to cause bad feeling and harm the progressive cause

I see your point, but, if not here, where else can we defeat them, or debate them and their ridiculous positions? Some of "them" that come here will learn, eventually after debating us, that their side is indefensible. Let them come here with that party line and that narrow focus. These are arguments and sides they might not hear anywhere else, literally only knowing the party line.

That hardhearted attitude was typical of their side. Their side isn't going to go away because we delete a thread. In winning, or making a point, with that poster, we help to defeat anyone else that comes along.

And if we defeat them out of hand, without even the mods having to step in, it makes us look better. More self-assured, more "in the right". And we get our message out far better, leaving the arguments for others to read later, not just the participants.

It's important. He might have been here only to cause trouble, or he might have been sincere. But either way, his attitude was (editing to say, isn't) unique to him, and the wording and angle of attack was intelligent enough to use to confront the issue.

He made his side sound almost reasonable. THAT is a problem. Those shills aren't the ones I want to ignore. Or delete.

The "offending" poster had an opinion most here don't agree with, and expressed it in a less than tactful way at times. But we are grown-ups here (at least I think most of us are).

I also spent a lot of time trying to convince that poster, and also to make some general points I thought were valid, and now they are all gone.

Technically, I suppose, the language alone could have merited deleting some threads. But I think the arguments (on both sides) should be allowed to stand on their own merit.

And you are right, there were some very good points made during the course of the discussion which should have been allowed to stand. Those who stood up to make their points without attacking should not have had their posts removed. Those posts that attacked a poster and not the message should have been deleted but not every one of those posts in the sub-thread.

the jerk's argument consisted of boasting abt his xmas would be high and dry w. lots of presents around the tree

it was a sick thread and didn't belong here

I think it had merit because there are people that think like that, and, they really don't understand what we're concerned about. It has merit because it's a VERY misunderstood divisive issue in our nation right now that is costing people their welfare and their lives.

It's...worth an argument or two.

With anyone who's willing to take me on over it. That's how I feel. "Those" people? I could have been one of "those" people.

They need a piece of my mind, and your mind, and everybody who cares.

editing to say, okay, my bad, it was a sub-thread, not the whole thread. But it was a very long and involved subthread.

Many of them might share the opinion that N.O. should not be rebuilt.

I think they should be allowed to read both sides of the argument. Maybe we can't convince the original, but perhaps some who are reading...

"Many of them might share the opinion that N.O. should not be rebuilt."

And, along with that, they might never say so, they might not come right out and say it, but they might agree.

How many, who knows? But if it's a problem, a common problem, well, it's a problem I'd like to confront head on, with full speed ahead, ramming speed, knock them over and out. Linguistically, of course.

I had just jumped into the fray to discuss the merits of a port needing workers who lived nearby when the sub-thread was deleted. The offending poster wanted workers to live and commute 60 miles from the port. That part of the discussion was civil, so why should it have been deleted?

It could have been handled better, and if he was the only offender, his posts alone could have been censored. Should have been censored.

It's not as if far too many people don't think just like him, unfortunately. Bad idea to ignore that fact.

I also should have said, that was a great post. Best wishes to you and yours.

</network> Then again, I am an N.O. exile, going on fifteen years now, so maybe I don't count. :sarcasm:

I'm on so many different rebuilding boards it's beginning to cut into my DU time! The many DUers who do "get it" are encouraged to join me and at least one other exiled DUer at:

http://nola.us (run by the same people who were blogging from the CBD during the crisis)
http://www.nola.com/forums/rebuilding/index.ssf (careful! Ugly righty trolls here; think Yahoo! boards)
http://www.rebuildinglouisianacoalition.org (actual movers and shakers posting here; also check out the article under "Urbanism")

I always thought this was what we did as Americans whenever a big job had to be done: just rolled up our sleeves and did it. That, rather than having the fattest bankroll or the pointiest missiles, is what always made us the best. Hey, King Dumbass**, I've got your "national greatness" right here!

edit: url of Interdictor board

:mad:

Imagine most of YOUR city destroyed because the government LET IT HAPPEN!

Imagine the government DEMANDING that you relinquish your constitutional right to privacy or else you do NOT get financial disaster relief - give them full control of all your medical records, legal and academic documents or else YOU DIE!

Imagine land developers and HALLIBURTON coming into YOUR city and telling you how they will demolish entire sections of the city (even though people do NOT want to sell their homes but want to try to rebuild) in order to build pre-fab condos and casinos!

Imagine Donald Trump putting a building right in the middle of your neighborhood and then you are FORCED to leave because of eminent domain or you can no longer afford to pay your rent because it has just been TRIPLED in price!

Imagine most of the best and oldest family owned restaurants and homes in your city being demolished so that a developer can build a giant mall, replete with gross fast food restaurants and box retailers.

Imagine coming home to collect the last vestiges of your belongings only to find out the landlord had THROWN EVERYTHING IN THE STREET and the garbage collectors have already hauled it away!

Imagine losing all hope as your friends and family members commit suicide one by one... recently, a childhood friend's dad committed suicide and I just recently had to stop my dad from doing the same.

Imagine wanting to stay in America because you love it, but you soon realize that you are no longer a "citizen," and have been forsaken by your so-called countrymen (present company excluded), AND not wanting to be an "American" any longer because you can be a third-class citizen in another country, and AT LEAST get medical care.

I wish I could nominate this post.

what an absolute disgrace!!!

it's always darkest before the dawn

right now i'm not real worried abt any developers, that ain't gonna happen unless there is real levee protection, until we get that, nothing else can happen

i doubt there will be any new casinos, altho harrahs should be re-opening, erm, i'm forgetting the date but i'm thinking the february time frame

that's awful abt your dad and your dad's friend, it's easy to say that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem when you are young but when you are older, it's just so hard to start over

i didn't even realize what i was signing with FEMA, that was a lot of information they asked for now you mention it, but what do you do, i assume the IRS and Soc. Security already know my life story, so what is one more

do what you gotta do and never give up

:hug:

Standing up and demanding that such handling of fellow American citizens WILL NOT WASH is quite another. I would LOVE to be able to imagine that happening (actually, what I'd REALLY LOVE to SEE is Americans reconnecting with our core values and putting a FULL STOP on ALL this shit). LIHOP Operation Drown the Negroes (and anyone else anywhere near 'em) was a huge success. We hear NOTHING from the devastated coastline, po' whites, Mexicans, Vietnamese...

Wake up kids. Your *gub'mintMIC done gone destroyed the artifacts of the cradle of civilization. It then turned its LIHOP guns on your own cradle of civilized commerce that reflected all the complexities of the nation while harboring an unparalleled, beloved worldwide cultural gem.

This shit is seriously fucked up. :cry:

Swamperkins! :hug:

This is just so fucking sad.

But I'm certain that Katrina and the drowning of an American city was the end of the Bush presidency and maybe the Republican view of the world at it's height of power. ME first and FU. That's their view. Maybe I'm way over optimistic but that's what I believe. It's on it's way out. It's dying. It's going to take years but that was the end of it.

I DO think of New Orleans all the time and wonder of the people and how it's doing. I read all of Bosshog's posts and Swamp Rat and I actually care as much about NO as I do about Iraq. Probably more. I really am focusing on where I live and spending money here and helping the food bank here. New Orleans made me again feel how much place and home mean and that we must take care of our own, and get a government(oh please Jesus someday)that takes care of Americans first.

You are correct in that the media and the attention of Americans has moved on. But the focus on the war too is connected to Katrina because Americans made the connection of money and resources spent on lies, greed, and ideology instead of on them. I hope they don't forget.

http://www.reconstructno.org

available in English et aussi en francais!

The guy has amassed a compendious collection of rebuilding-related articles, many with a lefty slant DUers will appreciate. He even links to Wet Bank Guide, produced by our very own markus (and featuring some of the finest writing out there, I might add).

No, I'm not from the south.

I've lived on the west coast my entire life and oh yeah I'm white and middle class....BUT!

BUT!

I TOTALLY GET IT and I will NEVER EVER FORGET Katrina. Or the victims of Katrina.

I will NEVER FORGET that Bush Co did NOTHING to help the victims, continues to do NOTHING to help the victims and has done their damndest to try and make the rest of the country forget about Katrina and Bush Cos criminal negligence. :grr:

Ever since Katrina...my heart breaks for the victims and how they've been treated so shabbily. :cry:

And I am haunted by the thought...WHO, WHAT, WHERE is next? :scared:

I say this as someone who only just lived through a Cat 3 myself. After seeing how SE Texas fared with tremendous wind damage but thankfully little flooding, I can't imagine what the NO/Delta area looks like. Like you, we will be cleaning up for the next year or more, and even I can not fully comprehend the suffering visited on the people of the Delta. Unless I compare it to Cameron Parish after Rita, since it was devastated in much the same way, only with a smaller population. But until one lives through it, they can't really even begin to appreciate the aftermath.

to maintain some sanity. Her house was not damaged, but the turmoil affects everything in her life.

welcome to the United Fascist States of Amnesia, where the american dream was nothing but.

our gov't was disgraceful responding to this.
our media was disgraceful responding to this.
our sheeple were disgraceful responding to this.
and they still disgrace all of us thinking, feeling, *believing* americans to this day by their silence.
they gave up america without a shot fired and we live with the consequences.
so tell me, believers in this dream called america, when will you rage?
or is there truly nothing in life worth fighting for anymore?

remember, in the face of evil, silence equals death.