Do you see any way out of this mess?

To an outside observers, me being Canadian, it seems like the Dems are calling for troupe withdrawal and the 'repugs' are calling for "staying the course". To me both seem like a recipe for disaster, we obviously shouldn't have gone in in the first place. Withdrawal seems to me to lead to chaos in the middle east and the founding of a terrorist state and many more deaths, more than under Sadam. Staying will only lead to a long drawn out "simmering" war that will consume both American and iraqi lives without end in sight. Personally I can't see any way out of this mess.

On the other hand if we get out, they might not feel compelled to fight us any more and may clean up their own country. At the very least, we have helped create the next muslim state. Time for us to get out.

I think that staying there is making things worse.. but it's hard to imagine America tendering the kind of honest apology that would be necessary for the international community to get involved at the levels that would be necessary to get our guys outta there.

Bush friendly multinationals have a hold on the oil, and like a kid with their hand stuck in a cookie jar.. are loathe to let go.


edit:"i before e".. sheesh

Only The Rapture Will End It

According to moi, only when there's no oil left to steal away... by the Enron-crook types who hijacked the Treasury forever.

situation even 1% better then the damage we have caused by invading the country in the first place. The Iraqis are not loyal to their government, the surrounding countries have and will continue to meddle there and we don't even know who we are really fighting there. I know this administration likes to put a face on the enemy but I simply don't buy that one terrorist leader is driving all the violence there. Staying will be costly and leaving will be costly. Which price are we Americans willing to pay?

it shouldn't be up to us. 80% of Iraqis already want us to start planning to leave, and this cuts across most factions. The whole idea of a democracy is to be self-governing. We shouldn't stay there and play God, otherwise its: "oh we'll let you play democracy, but you want to be independent? Forget it."

The way to do that is with nationalized oil industry. Privatizing it for the west will just lead to long term instability and gripes.

You cannot have peace in a country when you "mercantile" it for your own good (USA)before all else.

except there is no way the current administration will accept that

In addition, we MUST have UN involvement

industry they are making the same mistake they made when they didn't support democracy but only the dictator who would give oil the best deal.

got to be the dealmakers - instead of Cheney and his oil advisors. Would have kept people busy trying to get a piece of the pie.

Now any oil company that annoys someone - they will just have to call it an outside exploiter and make it wrong.

At least if oil had remained national for a bit people could have agreed how ownership would be distributed when it went private. Now it is Chalabi calling the shots.

with *bushco, beg for forgiveness from iraq and the world, and spend the rest of our existence as a country making amends and atoning. that MIGHT begin to allow daylight to shine on us again......... but even with that, i'm afraid we've got a ton of grief coming our way.

get out, or stay the course. There's got to be a better way. There is a better way but we aren't discussing it. Why? Because the bushites are spinning the argument. What about a plan for gradual withdraw. How about a plan where slowly the Iraqis takeover control of their own country? It is not happening because the bushites are too incompetent to mange anything. Like Katrina and New Orleans, they have cronies and thieves in charge who can't plan, can't organize, can't lead. All they know how to do is politic thru the media and steal from the treasury.

As long as bush* is in the White House, we will have no true discussion of the problems and solutions in Iraq.

they're not planning on going anywhere - not quickly or slowly, not now or ever. witness the 14 permanent bases they're building in iraq. you think they plan to hand those over to the iraqis? they lie without compunction.

no matter what we do now, we're screwed, blued, and tattooed.

with specific milestones that need to be met

The problem is we are in the middle of a civil war, perpetuated by us, but only the Iraqii people can get themselves out of this

We need to have the U.N. involved

The problem is the people in control right now want permanent bases in Iraq, and that will be a catalyst for violence

When you get in a "i can't see a way forward." befuddled state of mind,
"stop". Go shoot some hoops.

The way is to show the world that justice, truth and the rule of law are
things the United States respects. And until bush is impeached, and his
posse disgraced, "we" draw fire by being a criminal aggressor ourselves
draped in flag cultism. Until the people depose an obviously criminal,
dangerous and incompetent executive, war will come to the doorstep, a
tide of power seeking to balance a vacuum for justice.

Stop...
Then look to justice.
One thing at a time,
any culture interested in justice
is well able to bring about an end to strife.

There is no way out of the mess. The only good option would have been
to not step into the mess in the first place. Before the war, the
peace protesters made this clear, but we were dismissed as "focus
groups".

The damage that has been done is permanent, and we've pissed-off
even *MORE* people who have memories of grudges stretching back
thousands of years, so it's not likely they'll forget their
new grievences with us very soon.

Tesha

always manages to get people to pay attention and get their priorities straight.

but won't happen. Nationalize oil, all contracts and monies to rebuild Iraq should go to the Iraqis, and the UN with multi-national troops should be installed as US & British forces are slowly withdrawn. Stabilization could probably occur over a 5 to 10 year period. As long as the people remain unemployed and the different factions are fighting for the "spoils", there will be bloody conflicts.

It is true that total abandonment would be a disaster. But, because the U.S. invaded, and is the source of the death, destruction and antagonism, the U.S. can't be physically present as part of the solution. Some sort of international force of nations that were not parties to the invasion is needed to keep peace while the infrastructure is repaired and civil society develops. The U.S. does have a heavy moral obligation to pay for all the rebuilding and to support people whose relatives we killed. Our physical presence is an ongoing disaster and affront to the people of Iraq.

I'm not sure why people don't seem to get or understand this. We aren't the only troops available to police Iraq until their country is stabilized. In fact, there are plenty of non-Western UN nations who can do the job quite well, without the added element of agitation created by a Western presence. It just won't be profitable for those responsible for starting the war in the first place to do so. Thus, they feed us a false binary - stay the course or total withdrawal. Both of those options are horseshit distractions. We could withdraw every American (and Canadian) in 24 hours if we really wanted to, but that prevents oil and war reconstruction profiteering as well as our establishment of permanent military bases in Iraq.

The longer we stay, the more terrorists we create, the more destruction we cause, the more lives we end.

It doesn't matter when we leave, Iraq will erupt into a civil war as soon as we're gone, simply due to the fact that any governmental entity that is set up under US auspices is going to be considered illegal and illegit by the Iraqi people, and they will destroy it once we're gone.

So let us leave now. Pull out, pay out some serious reparations, give them humanitarian aid and assistance, and let the Iraqi people determine their own course. Yes, it may wind up a terrorist state, but it will be a state with fewer terrorists in it than if we stay.