I would like for one person on DU to make a convincing argument for

the death penalty, particularly in the case of Tookie Williams.

I haven't seen one yet.

How is this man's death going to benefit our society as a whole.

Please leave out the revenge crap...killing this man isn't going to bring those dead people back--ever.

Stephanie

Some call it closure, I call it an unhealthy response. But what do I know, I've never had a loved one taken from me in this way. I'd like to think I'd take the high ground, but one never knows.

To tout ourselves to the world as an enlightened progressive society and sanction this barbaric punishment is ludicrous.

I’ve worked in the medical dept of several prisons. Offenders live a miserable existence.

Incarcerating an innocent person is a terrible injustice, so what do we call executing an innocent person?

But if someone killed a loved one of mine in cold blood, I would do everything in my power to make sure they paid with their life.

and paid for by the public.

If you want to hunt someone down...whatever. That's Clint Eastwood stuff, and although a normal response...not for this thread.

Its about ending evil that damages society.

What, he has been on death row about 20 years? How many appeals? It would be more cost effective to allow him to live on to old age than for him to have the huge and high profile appeals. Amnesty International has compared such costs and its a no brainer in these budget strapped days.

of parole is a far greater punishment. however, if someone hurt a member of my family i would probably want to rip their eyes out of their head with my own hands.

...I hope someone would stop me before I could do just that. Nothing can change my anti-DP stance, but if the victim were (God forbid) a loved one, I would be out of my head with rage, and not making rational decisions.

At the same time, I've instructed my family, repeatedly: If I am ever murdered, PLEASE argue AGAINST killing my killer.

I think they would respect my wishes. Impossible to know for sure.

The death penalty is a sign of a weak society ruled by the basest of animal instincts. I have no love of Tookie Williams, or any other murderer. But a society that can't device a justice system that rises above the crimes we are punishing isn't a true society, it's just a mob.

Singapore just executed a 25 year old Australian for drug smuggling. So there are worse places.

imprisoned, but that's me. I'd rather take the chance on dying at once and then being free than take the chance on dying in prison and never being free.

There are no good penal systems. I've always had a fondness for colonies like Devil's Island or Australia. Send a prisoner to a far away land and let them survive on their own skills, rather than stuffing them in a room like calves waiting to become veal.

But I guess we have to do something. I've always thought fining someone a percentage of their income for a set number of years would be a better system, except in the case of true threats to society. It would pay for itself, at least, and it would encourage law enforcement to go after white color criminals more than regular people. But I haven't worked out all the nuances yet, and no one has called and offered me the position of God yet, so alas, we'll stick with the atrocities we have, I guess.

injection.

by the way do you remember the whole clinton/monica mess? well ed koch (former mayor of NY) said bill clinton should be caned -- not impeached.

his humour. what i can't understand is his support for bush. he said the country had moved to far to the left. clinton was a moderate so i don't know what he's talking about.

Australian? Was that a woman? I just seem to remember that.

I agree with your take on "a society..".

SINGAPORE - Australian heroin trafficker Nguyen Tuong Van was executed early Friday, the Singaporean government said.

“The sentence was carried out this morning at Changi Prison,” the Home Affairs Ministry said in an e-mailed statement.

bad. Remind me never to go to Singapore.

it probably isn't the issue it was 15 years ago.

Then there was 54 (or more) murders per 100,000 within prisons. At the same time it was more like 10 per 100,000 in the general population. Now I think it's more like 5 per 100,000 in or out.

If the people with life sentences are killing prison guards and other prisoners because they don't care - then the prison system is not really working. Apparently since that time - they separate the more violent ones from the rest (hello!) and have more computerized cells for certain people so that the guards don't have to come in as much contact as they would otherwise.

I think the death penalty is wrong because society shouldn't be using it as if it if Ok to kill people. On the other hand - if there are murderers who actually enjoy killing - there has to be some way to stop them - whether it is through an adequate detention facility or whatever.

(I was just watching the Biographies of the "Boston Strangler" - who escaped at one point from prison - and another show about the "Hillside (LA) Stranglers" and it does make you think about wanting everyone possible inside and out of prison to be protected from people like that.)

working all day doing something that benefits society. No TV, no fun.

And as we know the deterrence part is complete nonsense. And a life sentence is actually often much cheaper for the state than a death sentence.

It's not the same thing as revenge. It's punishment. Don't ask me to defend that argument, cause I don't buy it. Intellectually it makes sense to me, but far far too many people have been given the death penalty, only to be exhonorated later, for this argument to stand up. Some murders really do seem bad enough for the killers to deserve being killed. Osama bin Laden and Jeffery Daumer come to mind.

The problem is that no society can ever insure that this penalty will always be fairly and consistantly applied. You can never be sure that some jury somewhere isn't going to use this tool on the wrong guy. Despite some criminals deserving to die, I don't think any broad collection of human beings is going to warrant the absolute trust of using this penalty fairly.

The question to me is should government have the power to kill them. I say no.

The death penalty is one of those punishments that made sense in a different world. In ancient or medieval times, prisons were rare, and usually reserved for political enemies. Common criminals were punished quickly, not locked away. A thief had his hand cut off. Criminals were fined, maimed, lashed, etc. Death was the ultimate penalty, and you gave it either for the ultimate crime, like murder, or for repeat offenders who were going to become someone else's problem if you didn't take care of them--pirates, thiefs, etc. Murders led to revenge killings by family members, speaking out against the government could lead to rebellions. It was a genuine, though barbaric, peace keeping system.

That's just a different world, though. We have no real purpose to much of our penal or justice system. Laws are passed to make people feel good, not to protect people. You can go to jail for selling porno videos just because someone decides they are offended by them, for instance. We don't know if sentencing is supposed to be about rehabilitation, deterence, or revenge, so our sentencing is completely screwed up. In a murder trial, the family of the victim is allowed to speak before sentencing, to tell the jury how badly they have been wronged. If a victim has no family, his murderer might get a lighter sentence, regardless of the intention of the killer. We don't know what are trying to achieve, even.

We are lost as a society. No wonder filth like Bush can convince us to commit atrocities. We don't stand for anything anymore.

Damn, I'm cynical tonight. Fuck it, let's go bowling.

lets take Jeffrey Dahmer - he was insane, dangerous, could never be let out. like a mad dog. do we keep them around? no, we put them to sleep out of Mercy.

its logical, but i don't quite buy my own assertion, though.

on death row?

where someone recants their "witness" story 15 years after a young man was executed for a murder he not only didn't commit, but had nothing whatsoever to do with. And racism is still a factor. A black man was convicted this week of manslaughter in the death of two "University of Louisville students" (white males.) I wonder if the black man had been a college student as well, if the story would've reflected that? But it sure read well, didn't it?:sarcasm:

Penalty but not for a while now.

It doesn't make sense on any counts except "an eye for an eye"..they should be kept in prison without possibility for parole.

Leave the killing to the criminals.

Costs thousands of dollars to keep him locked up. Burial plot costs next to nothing.


In this case as he already had his appeals.

Cheap.

or are you being sarcastic?

Do I beleive it costs over $40,000/yr to keep a person in prison? Yes

Do I beleive that if you have already spent all the Court costs, that it costs less to put a needle in his arm than to spend the above figure every year for the rest of his life? Yes

But remember the question. The OP wanted a argument in favor of putting this guy to death. There's your benefit. The state of California saves some money.

Is it the right thing to do? Well that is a different question. I don't know if this particulaar individual has any redeeming qualities.

When you calculate in all the mandatory appeals and the court costs and lawyers' fees and added security and evidence retesting and evidence storage.... it's actually much more economical to just lock someone up for the next 50 years of their lives than to jail 'em for the next 15 while they exhaust their appeals.

This site breaks it down some.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7

Not that money should matter in justice but it does and many places that have the death penalty can't afford it. So when they persue it the whole area suffers.

About delivering justice.

I don't give a shit which cost more.

The question is which is fairer to their victims.

From what I understand, the voters of California overwhelming voted to bring back the death penalty.

While Tookie may simply be a book author just as John Gotti was a plumber, he was received a trial, many many appeals and has been found to be guilty all the way.

He's guilty of a heinous crime and the voters have choosen that people who have committed crimes like his, receive this penalty.

Its Democracy and Justice in action.

convicts from organizing and arranging for people outside of prison to be killed (ie. against the families of people within the prison that they want to take revenge on).


http://www.laweekly.com/ink/05/11/features-duersten.php

If you do not, then you can argue that Ted Bundy should still be alive today. You can argue that these sick inviduals that rape and murder small children should be spared. Who are we to judge that a person live or die? Who is to argue that the victims of Ted Bundy or the victims of Tookie Williams or someone else are less important? I personlly do not beleive in capital punishment but I will admit I do not know all the details in the Tookie Williams case...

I don't believe in killing anyone in cold blood. However, I am not concerned about a murderer dieing. Life in prison, or death in a chamber...It really doesnt' seem that different. If we're going to argue over what good it can do, well, this would show everyone that involvement in gangs results in death. A deterrent, if you will.

BBut, like I said, I don't really care. I feel bad for the victims, and I'm appalled at all the support Tookie is getting, considering he never confessed to his crimes. The ninth circuit held up the conviciton, and they are not exactly a "hang em' high" crowd. I would be surprised if clemency is granted if he doesn't confess and apologize.

(Pretending I'm not me...I don't believe in the death penalty)

It'll make me feel good. I'll be happy that this person is wiped off the planet. Since I want him to die, when he does, I'll feel somehow vindicated, like I stood up for his alleged victims. It'll my personal closure, regardless of truth, justice and the hypocrisy some actions bring. Since I care more about my opinion and what I think, than I do about right v. wrong, I can't wait for this guy to die.

See? Convincing...for me (if I felt that way, which I don't).

You never said who I had to convince, but I hope my post makes others think.