"Attack on Christmas" question: Has anyone on DU actually had people

bring this up as a topic of conversation? I live in the Bible belt, in a very pro-Bush area. I've never heard this mentioned, ever.

I think it's obviously a product of RW media, specifically FOX news from Hannity, O'Reilly, and Gibson.

Vaccination ! Quick!

I live in washington and the most out there comments I've heard recently were when my brother in law and I had the following conversation:

B-I-L: "Well, the holidays really are about Christmas."
Me: "Not to a jew."
B-I-L: "Well what is it about to them."
Me: "Hanukkah!"
B-I-L: "No, I think its probably about Christmas to them too."

This guy is 30, Catholic (like myself) and was SERIOUS! He also believes that this whole "Happy Holidays" discussion this year is tantamount to RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION of CHRISTIANS! I was so flabbergasted that I spent the rest of Thanksgiving changing the oil on my car so I wouldn't explode and ruin the holiday.

Its amazing how ignorance spreads.

points, he thinks we should Nuke the Middle East.

He's so... icky. Even my rwing mother doesn't like him.

Maybe your co-worker listens to Rush. He's horrible too, but they put something hypnotic in the radio waves...

O'Reilly is a cranky cranky bastard.
He's a grouch.

At least Rush Limbaugh used to have skits and song parodies on his show. Some of these were fairly clever, even funny. Remember "Spatula City"?

But O'Reilly.
What a downer.

It was a clip from the movie UHF, starring Weird Al Yankovic.

who had seen that movie.

Wow. A thirty year old said that? Excuse me while I pop a blood viesel.

back in 91


A man got angry over a "Happy X-mas" card and claimed it was an attack on Christmas. I remember it because I was surprised by his reaction. This was in Georgia.

Maybe I just never paid attention - and until recently, I'd never heard anyone else make a fuss over it since that once.

I think it ("attack on Christmas") is all just poopy-headed nonesense.

from one of my elementary school teachers. I worked in a store during high school and college and heard complaints from a number of people every Christmas season. Every few years, now, I hear someone making a serious attack on the use of "X-mas." Maybe you run with a more tolerant crowd.

and have only heard it mentioned by my boss who thinks the whole thing's ridiculous, and that people need to get a life!

You have nailed it. Its a product of RW media.

I saw somebody go off on it about a decade ago on an AOL message board, but I think they were role playing and were not serious.

My temporary job in a call center has me taking 120-150 customer service calls a day.

Over the last two days, I tracked by hand the number of customers who made reference to the holidays. Most said nothing.

Of those who did, thirty-three said "Happy Holidays", and four said "Merry Christmas".

It's all they have to talk about and the only issue they can use to raise funds.

Bullshit. Nothing but reich wing propaganda.

I have NEVER seen or heard any liberal/progressive/democrat or whatever attack Christmas. It's just a yearly campaign made by reichsters in order to promote their selfish stupidities.

It has to be winter vacation and all the decorations have to be winter pictures and not christmas pictures. These were rules for elementary schools in Iowa and parents were disgruntled with the restrictions on their kids holiday celebrations

because of PARENTS who complained.

Christmas is as big a part of the break as anything and ALL manner of religious decorations should be allowed.

My wife likes to say (and I agree): "We have freedom OF religion in this country, not freedom FROM religion."

Let the kids decorate with that which makes them happy during the holiday season. Oppression is oppression no matter how you look at it.

And you agree ... ?

Maybe you meant to say, "compulsory freedom from religion."

I personally prefer, "freedom from compulsory religion."

The former, incidentally, is a RW "talking point". Your wife has unwittingly been used to transmit their call to obedience. Not to slight her -- we've all been used at some point.

--p!

The removal of all religion is compulsory atheism. If we are guaranteed the freedom to practice as we see fit then the forced removal of that ability to express ones religion is on parr with compulsory atheism.

The basic point is, choose your religion, go with it, don't force it on others and let everyone practice in his/her own way. Saying "You can't paint a Christmas picture" is the same as saying "You HAVE to paint a Christmas picture."

This isn't a "talking point" its an opinion.

attacking other religious and denominational beliefs as invalid and demanding promotion of only ONE religion's holy days as national holidays should be enough freedom for the dominant group, don't you?

If they went to funding Ramadan celebrations, would you object?

I'm all for allowing children in school to have a certain time in the day to practice their religion but most of the times those "Christmas Tree Projects" are started by the teachers and not the students. Christmas vacation is a title made by school officials not the students. It's very easy to see it as harmless unless you're the 1 child in class that doesn't celebrate Christmas. If the teachers did craft projects for every holiday it would make more sense to me.

Since there are like three black kids in the state of Iowa, outside of Des Moines, I think that's pretty cool.

The removal of all religion is compulsory atheism. If we are guaranteed the freedom to practice as we see fit then the forced removal of that ability to express ones religion is on parr with compulsory atheism.

They not only outlawed practice of any religion, they also persecuted anyone caught worshiping any god or gods, or anything other than the state. Castro does the same thing now, and China only allows a twisted version of religion that puts the state above God.

Personally, I think atheism is a religion itself. It's known as the Church of Freethought.

Why not let the kids and their families make the decision?

Don't buy into the "no-religion is a religion" lie. It's like saying that sobriety is drunkenness, and chastity is sexual promiscuity.

People have a right to their beliefs, but nobody has a right to empower authorities to enfranchise their beliefs -- Commies and Christians alike.

--p!

I believe we have gotten off topic here. I don't care what they call the winter break, I *DO* care that a child was told that they COULD NOT paint a picture relating to Christmas.

The schools should not enforce the celebration or practice of ANY religion, but telling a child that they CANNOT paint a picture of christmas is just as bad in the opposite direction.

I wasn't talking about Castro, or China or the former USSR, I was merely making a point using a little hyperbole.

oh, and here's a little more. It's not so much the Church of Free Thought as it is the Church of Selfishness. Please don't attack my religion just because I'm trying to make a point. It makes you as bad as them.

How very progressive of you.

Guess we know now what you think of religious freedom.

I merely responded to the poster's implication that MY religion was not one of free thought by implying that HIS religion focused only on himself. Childish, yes, but on both of our parts.

Seemed a fair exchange to me. If he wants to practice that religion, more power to him. That's where I stand.

That's how talking points get going. Opinions are harvested, carefully dissected from their contexts, and re-marketed. Your opinion today can become a cliche tomorrow. This also has the effect of shaming people into silence and/or compliance.

In addition, telling kids they can't paint a Christmas picture is 100% against the wording and the intent of the laws. The law is to prevent teachers and administrators from leading religious practices. Kids can pray, wear yarmulkes and kaffiyehs, draw pictures of Santa and Jesus and L. Ron Hubbard to their hearts' content. Here, too, the UltraFundies have played fast and loose, and decided that False Witness was the way to go.

It is difficult to be faithful to one's religion these days, but it's not because of the ACLU -- it's because of the money-changers in the temple. At least half the people at DU are religious in some manner, even if Pat Robertson has condemned us to hell. The fight isn't against religion, it's against the self-appointed bullies of God.

--p!

I see your point, but it was not meant to foster ANYONES agenda (CERTAINLY not Dumya's or the RW), merely to express a personally held opinion. I've never actually heard the idea expressed that way by anyone other than my wife (and I watch a LOT of TV) and I refuse to change any of my beliefs just because someone I don't like happens to hold/adopt the same point of view.

I am really getting sick of this whole debate (not here, discussing is cool, but it has been all over CNN AGAIN this morning). If we truly have freedom of religion in this country why does it matter which store decides to say what in what way or what the hell a tree in a town square is called. Its ludicrous and all it does is lead to people trying to force their religion (or lack thereof) on those around them.

If it looks like a christmas tree, smells like a christmas tree, lights up like a christmas tree - CALL IT A CHRISTMAS TREE! if you aren't christian but celebrate 12/25 as a secular holiday call it an X-mas tree, whatever. If you don't celebrate, don't deprive those who do of something as non-confrontational as a decoration just to do so. Decorations, even if displayed by a city government, ARE NOT the same as saying "worship my god or die". I just wish people would get over it.

Americans, as a matter of fact, as citizens DO have the right to "freedom from religion," but ONLY on behalf of the government. Of course corporations, and small businesses, and little kids in school can take it upon themselves to celebrate whichever holiday they want, in whatever phrasing they want.

But Christmas celebrations, when initiated on behalf of government, can be discriminatory, not only at the scene, but to tax payers who do not wish for their hard-earned dollars to go toward religious indoctrination.

I'm an athiest, and I celebrate Christmas as a big tree-worshipping, secular, solstice, Santa-Claus loving, Jesus-the-philosopher-hailing ball of festivity. I LOVE Christmas, and it has never offended my Christmas spirit to have to be deprived of Christmas decor at the Post Office or City Hall.

The people with whom you're siding don't want any of these reasonable compromises. It is an entirely reasonable compromise to say that OK, celebrate whatever you want, but off the public dime. Believe me, Christmas gets pretty big, even without that. The fundies, and evangelicals, however WANT THE INDOCTRINATION. It's part of their agenda. They are perfectly free to celebrate Christmas, however they like -- but that's NOT what they want. Just remember that.

All I'm really saying is what you said in the first paragraph: Let the children paint a picture of christmas if they want.

As to religious freedom, the first amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

It does not say that a township cannot DECORATE for the holiday of their choice. Decoration is not oppression, persecution, or indoctrination, and it CERTAINLY is not the same as congress passing a law requiring the practice of a specific religion. If the town disagrees with the decorations or what they are called the first amendment ALSO says:

"Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Petition them and make them change it.

try putting up a manger scene with ET figurines next to the white baby Jesus display. Freedom of religion doesn't mean adherence to only ONE religion's holy days and ignoring the others.

You are going to have to make that point a little more clear. When did ET become a religious figure?

And what it means is that no one can FORCE you to celebrate a holiday. It does not mean that a person, organization, or yes, even a government office can't decorate at their discretion.

I say again that forcing the removal of these things is THE SAME as saying you HAVE to display these things. And, ultimately, if equal time will stop the whole debate then lets put a santa, baby jesus, menorah, (insert Ramadan decoration - sorry for my ignorance), pentagram and whatever else you can come up with in every display so people will JUST STOP!

Its the holidays and no matter what religion you are this time of year should be about peace, love, giving, charity, and all the Good things in humanity. It seems this year all we have done is instigate violence and get angry because someone wants to express their point of view. Lets just get over it and have a little "Holiday" cheer.

Merry Christmas.

People are making too much over nothing. I couldn't care less whether the person on the other end of the phone said "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays." I find the latter a bit more inclusive than the former, so if you don't really know the other person, I'd have to rule in favor of "Happy Holidays" for etiquette's sake.

On the other hand, the new term "holiday tree" is just plain dumb. I've been calling it a Christmas tree for 40 years, and I'm not about to change just because some nameless bozo wants to get all PC on me. The fact that Wal-Mart and Target are calling them "holiday trees" just doesn't get much notice from me. I seriously could not care less.

As for public displays, there are numerous symbols, including the aforementioned holiday tree, that should be perfectly OK to include without offending any but the most anal retentive of nutjobs. These would include candy canes, poinsettias, luminaires, icicle lights, snowmen (or snow-person, if one must), and snowflakes. The sky is literally the limit. We do not HAVE to have Nativity scenes, menorahs, pentagrams, or other religious symbols in the public square. I also couldn't care less about the content of public holiday decor, but as long as there are stupid bitches (like Kyle's mom - thanks, Cartman) who do care, the easiest thing to do is to neutralize them in advance. At least this way, you can give them "the look" that says, "you really are nuts, aren't you?"

Happy holidays, and don't let Bill O'Reilly ruin your Christmas.

they get off for New Year's too. . .do they still get to dress up on Halloween?

They get at least 2-3 weeks off! December 25th is, after all, one day.

Republican machine to protect them, as usual. They're always manufacturing reasons for them to be afraid or angry. If they didn't, hell- their base might notice they're being exploited.

And nope- I've never heard this topic brought up in real life. It's a ludicrous idea on it's face.

with repugs, and they didnt know wtf i was talking about. totally confused. i was teasing with a merry thanksgiving, happy christmas and joy holidays. bet they know what i am talking about now. so i got the sarcasm in this battle in before they heard they were suppose to be in battle.

She main-lines Faux News all day long, sadly.

Anyway, my Mother shut down the non-sense quickly telling my Grandmother that people have been saying "Happy Holidays" ever since she could remember. "That's just a made-up controversy. Trying to get you worked up for nothing," my Mother said.

My Grandmother contemplated what my Mother said and then finally agreed that people have been saying "Happy Holidays" since she was a little girl.

It's amazing how many schools don't let kids dress up now because one or two Fundy's complained.

"catapulted."

:eyes:

:shrug: One would think we have more important things to worry about? :eyes:

I must have seen close to 30 nearly-identical screeds at the RW pundit hives like TownHall and RenewAmerica. They all spread the same lies, that it's the doing of the ACLU (which has never sued pro-bono for someone who was upset that "Happy Holidays" wasn't said).

Now that their wise and God-blessed Maximum Leader has been exposed as a "what-me-worry?" Pharisee, the right-wing UltraFundies have gone off the rails. After Rita, Katrina, Cindy Sheehan, Fitzgerald's indictment(s), 2000 dead American troops, and the stagnant economy finally hurting the Rich, it was inevitable. The Konservative Kristmas Kontroversy is part of their dying hysteria.

Can we get a great, big, "HO HO HO!" in honor of the holiday?

--p!

n/t

the right is failing
and it's base is totally luke-warm
they are desperate for a an issue
to rally their troops.
apparently any issue will do.

problem is.. even republicans
won't rally for this lame bullshit.

It's just another moment in
the decline and downfall of
the conservative revolution

Enjoy

Murdock and the Saudis, probably the Bin-Ladens, trying to destroy Christmas. Funny how no one seems to know how much of News Corp the Saudis own.

Today on the marquee of a Christian high school where all the good little godly children learn all about intelligent design, I saw a message announcing their annual HOLIDAY Dance.

Methinks the conservative media and their hangers-on are blowing a bunch of smoke up our asses. The only reason this is a topic dujour is because Faux's John Gibson wrote a book.

What irks me here is that these people seem to think that the inclusion of all religions during the holiday season is an "attack" on them. It's just another example of the racism and anti-sematism that lurks beneath the rosy facade they have wrapped themselves in.

I remember there was a boycott about 4 years ago. 1 customer was in the check out line talking loud enough for others to hear about how stores were taking Christmas out of the stores. It wasn't good enough that there were about 15 Christmas trees in the store. I only had 2 shoppers mention it but it was after buying the clothes. I didn't sent the message to anyone above me because I really didn't care. People complain about a lot of silly things. "I don't like that you play rap music." "The skirts you sell are too short." I don't make the play list and I don't make the clothes.

This year I haven't heard a word. Even though I no longer work retail many of my clients are Church Ministers or Treasurers. I've never heard any of them mention anything about it.

Back in the brainwashing Megachurch I went to, every year back in the 70's and 80's they'd bitch and moan about how Xmas was taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. As usual, they conveniently ignored that X=Chi, aka the Greek symbol for Christ. It didn't fit into their retarded drivel.

My take on it? Fuck them. Christians stole Christmas from the pagans and I will happily hijack it back away from them. Their religion is a fairy tale and they're all ignorant bigots so fuck them and their manger and their wise men.

Give me my holiday tree so I can celebrate the winter solstice, the original meaning of this holiday before those bigoted, bumbling, retarded, religious numbfucks tried to steal it. It was a pagan holiday first, and there is no such thing as god, jesus, mary, joseph, or the three wise men.

It's time those dumbasses got over it and woke up to reality. God isn't dead, because there is no god. THAT is the truth!

Mike McConnell, is a week-end host and I caught a few seconds and he can't believe those stupid people who want to take the 'Christ' out of 'Christ'mas. Where are they getting this stuff? It must be part of a larger agenda to play-up the godless against the good-fearing for the sake of damning 'liberal' as opposed to the 'conservative' values... and who's are better? Certainly not those finks that want to ruin Christmas? Just propaganda, and they are so good at it. Probably brought to you by Karl Rove.

that I have heard is what I've been reading on DU. I don't watch TV news anymore so I probably missed whatever is going on there. My neighbors and friends don't talk about it and I don't hear anything when I shop. I hope I'm not that isolated. However, this could confirm that it's another nonsense alarm from the right.

Because it seems to me ENTIRELY a product of people like Mike McConnell, and NOT a concern of actual people I know.

A customer actually said that to me.

I said to him " This whole thing is wierd, I have always said Happy Holidays to people just out of respect. Why do you think all of the sudden this has become such a big deal?"

He said to ME - hahaha - "Its those left wing activists"!

We went back and forth for awhile, me having to be respectful because I was at work, he was a customer. But I finally shut him up when I told him the Bill O'Lielly story about O'lie selling HOLIDAY ornaments.

Not here. I've yet heard my preacher talk about it or anyone at the Bible study I go to after the sermon. :shrug: And everyone in the college class but my brother and I were for Bush this last time. Of course I don't know if they listen to rightwing radio or Fox. :shrug: People here are starting to put up lights and stuff. My dad said we might put our stuff up tonight. :D

I told him that it was because Bill O'Reilly and John Gibson needed to sell books, and that corporations were saying happy holidays because they want money from everyone, regardless of religion. I also mentioned that the whole "attack on Christmas" had its roots in anti-semitism.

she knows i'm a liberal. she came over to me & started in on how she guessed all us liberals were upset that hastert changed the name of the "holiday" tree to "christmas" tree & started smirking. it was amazing how quickly her smirk disappeared when i said "well really, no one knows why it was changed from christmas to holiday back in 1995 or 1996, but the republicans were in charge then too, so maybe you should ask your party chair?" muffled laughter from eavesdroppers. "besides, the REAL war on christmas is the over-commercialization, people beating each other up for plastic toys to celebrate the birth of the prince of peace." that shut her trap right there...guess she didn't count on me actually knowing bible stuff. :evilgrin:

dg

this fake issue.

No one is going into their churches telling them they can't be Christians, no one is entering their homes telling them they can't celebrate Christmas. If anything, what they are really concerned about is their ability to proselytize in public. Because, they are on a mission to convert others.

I fail to see what is offensive about saying "holiday"; that is generous enough, in my estimation, to consider Christmas a "holy day".

Boo hoo! Some privileged glutton has to hear someone at Macy's say "Happy Holidays! None of them are mentioning the "War on the Poor". How merry will it be for many children this year, who won't be showered with gifts and cookies and pretty decorations and heat and a roof...

Today I overheard someone complaining that "they" want to rename Christmas trees as "holiday trees," and therefore menorahs should be renamed "holiday norahs."

This bullshit is spreading fast this year, a desperate ploy by the right-wingers to paint liberals as the bad guys yet again.

and no one thinks Christmas is under attack, not even the extreme rwers I work with--they do believe it is over commercialized, however. :) So do I!

Happy Holidays All!

basically just laughed at them.

at our Methodist church was basically about it. The pastor actually had everyone stand and say "This is America--Merry Christmas." (Seemed a little odd, wouldn't you say?)

He went on to chide public schools that don't celebrate Christmas, and mocked a school that sang holiday songs instead of Christmas songs. He even said that retailers that don't want to use Christmas in their ads should do it anyway, because without Christmas, they wouldn't make all their money that time of year.

Yes, I'm in Lubbock (2nd most conservative city in the nation) but still, I was amazed...

Made you stand up and say "This is America--Merry Christmas."?! Seig heil!

It's been a long time coming.

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/373941.html

excerpting:

This week, the pastor of Raleigh's Upper Room Church of God in Christ was invited to speak on "The O'Reilly Factor" on Fox News Channel. The pastor, the Rev. Patrick Wooden, pressed his message that retailers and others should use the salutation "Merry Christmas," not "Happy Holidays."

Wooden and his supporters say they see evidence of an anti-religion movement in advertisements by retailers such as Target, Home Depot, Best Buy and Kohl's that don't mention Christmas.

"As a Christian minister, I see the attempt to de-Christianize Christmas as part of a much more sinister plan to de-Christianize America," Wooden said.

in my local fishwrap:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051205/OPINION03/512050327/1040/OPINION

I believe the propaganda has been catapulted!

How weird... That was essentially the sermon! Frightening that so many people can drink the koolaid that way.

I work a cash register. Before Thanksgiving I said "Happy Holiday" to a customer. She replied (rather coldly) "Merry Christmas" I told her I was trying just to get through Thanksgiving. At that point I didn't know O'Reilly was on that tear. I should have known better with that customer. She's always buying the latest Ann Coulter, right wing crap.

editorial yesterday says the whole flapdoodle is silly.

The great fundamentalist boogeyman of the 70s and 80s was "secular humanism" (it still is, but now the fundys get more milage lathering about gays). Standard "this evil cabal ist trying to take over and subvert our way of life. YOU can help by donating to this ministry" line, all to save the world from Carl Sagan and his pals.

Sagan's dead, so there's no secular icon to hold up for the scare-em tactics, so they've gone to the other side of the formula: if you can't hold up a boogeyman, hold up the dear thing the boogeyman threatens! ("One false move and the cute puppy with the big watery eyes gets it!").

You got it, my friend. This is a fabrication, mainly of one Bill O'Reilly. He brought it up last year, he's brought it up again this year, and now the RW nutcases have picked it up, so we'll have to hear it each and every December from now on. Fucking bastard O'Reilly single-handedly fucked up Christmas for everyone by starting this bullshit.