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thefloyd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 08:46 PM
Original message
Pelosi made a mistake with Murtha
Why Pelosi initially decided Murtha's plan was not the view of House Democrats and after further review decided to support is just not a good move. Murtha provided cover to all those representatives to Murtha's left who want Iraq over with. Murtha has well placed sources in the Military so really understands the issues troops face. I really am dissapointed in her.
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Vague post
revise and resubmit is my advice.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Fuck 'em all
Two goddamned weeks for her to come out in support of what Murtha said?

No wonder people think Democrats are weenies.

They ARE weenies.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. I see it as good that she can see the light.
A lot of issues I don't agree with right off but upon further scrutiny I have a compeletly different take on it.
Fuck wishy washy repuke talk.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. HUH??? Where HAVE you been?
That entire Murtha thing was carefully planned, both Houses knew what was going on, Pelosi was marshalling the troops in the House, while Reid was getting everyone on the same page in the Senate.

There was a decision made to let Murtha walk the point on this because any attempts to smack him down and call him "soft on defense" would be met by everything from outrage to ridicule (and they TRIED it with MEAN JEAN, remember?).

Not so much a vague post, but a completely inaccurate representation of what occurred and how it occurred. How do you think EVERY Democrat had the talking points memorized? They took a page from the Atwater playbook, and improved the play!
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SkiGuy Donating Member (451 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Do you think
the press has spun it otherwise though? I do.
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thefloyd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I do
Fair or not our MSM seems to believe a fissure exists in the Democratic party.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. It is becoming less and less important what the press thinks
They're being painted as toadies, cronies, power hungry clowns who get WAY too close to their sources, and they are totally compromised. The print media, especially. Armstrong Williams, Bob Novak, Miller, Woodward, and now Viveca Novak. The television media is a bit schizophrenic about it, alternating between unquestioning, simplistic reportage and fawning, but they are also starting to introduce that curious thing called BALANCE into the equation. For every drooling Tweety, there's a David Gregory hauling up the bullshit flag. Even Anus in the Morning is hauling the Monkey over the coals in a really BRUTAL fashion; and that is a new direction for him.

And the counter-arguments seem to resonate more with the American people, and that is good for our team! Finally, the sentiment of the PEOPLE is being introduced into the news equation--guess corporate media pigs figure that they can't get any advertising revenue if everyone turns off their TV...
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SkiGuy Donating Member (451 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
33. The press
I kind of think it is important. This is how a majority of people get their news. And it isn't even truth. In the words of Cheney, that's reprehensible! I mean we have to get our REAL news from either here or other blogs or research transcripts ourselves? That is just wrong, I don't know many people who make that effort. It's lazy or whatever (many generally just don't have the time)on their part , but they also expect (and rightfully so) that the MSM would tell it like it is or at the very least, tell both sides.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. But I see the tide turning, at least on the cable news shows
There's much more genuine discussion. It isn't perfect, but instead of having incompetent wusses giving the Democratic viewpoint, they are putting the heavy hitters out there. I used to be overjoyed when I would see Barney Frank make the odd appearance, because with one hand tied behind his back while chugging a glass of ice water, he can beat the living crap out of anyone in debate. But for every time I saw him, I saw twenty weaselly guys who did not have their facts in order or let the host or GOP clown ride roughshod all over them.

That is not happening anymore. The hosts are letting the Dems speak; and the Dems are slapping the GOP toadies when they try to play the outrage card, or talk over them. No more mista nice guy!

Don't be fooled, though--the media has not grown a conscience. They understand the mood of the country, and they want to keep their ad revenues. It isn't an accident that CNN and Faux have dropped 20 percent in viewership, and MSNBC has stayed flat...even with people out shopping for Xmas, if they are watching at all, they are watching the station that at least occasionally gives a balanced view of it all.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is why many in the middle say they won't vote Democratic
Edited on Sat Dec-03-05 09:02 PM by Selatius
They point to the fact that Democrats in general can't even agree on a position. The left side and right side of the party are always fighting. (I am not going to point fingers and say who is throwing the first punches in the last several years) As a result, Democrats look like they stand for nothing as a result. I don't know if it's corporate dollars that's causing many Democrats to veer right to please their biggest donors or if it's a lack of strong leaders or even competent leaders, but there's got to be some direction the party has to move in together.
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thefloyd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Exactly
Defense is one issue Democrats should have one position on. Especially when a hawk like Murtha leads the charge. Unfortunately, Pelosi makes democrats seem well like flip floppers. Peolosi is the House Leader and must be decisive for PR reasons.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. You need to read Fineman's article in post 17
You do not have a grasp of what happened between Murtha and Pelosi, weeks before Murtha held his presser. Your premise about the whys and wherefores is simply incorrect.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
31. Absolutely
When John Murtha made his brilliant and courageous statements, NOT ONE Democrat joined with him. Not one.

Friggin' Rahm Emmanuel made a remark the following day about Murtha's "being out there on his own," or something like that, and said something about "we'll have a position shortly."

This is why the Democratic Party is, essentially, meaningless. It's neutered itself, without any help from the Republicans.

Somebody's got to emerge, with a set of balls as big as my hope for the future.
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SkiGuy Donating Member (451 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. Not sure about this but....
You say "Why Pelosi initially decided Murtha's plan was not the view of House Democrats"
Do you mean by her vote against it? Try to clarify your post. It is interesting.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. When did they vote on Murtha's plan?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. THEY DIDN'T--they voted on Duncan Hunter's PARODY of Murtha's plan
The whole premise of this thread is false. Murtha and Pelosi COORDINATED that whole effort, as I said above. Madame Minority Leader was not behind the Eight Ball on this matter, she was in the mix from the git-go. Certainly, among House (as well as Senate members who weighed in) there was a modulation of positions in some circumstances, but the whole purpose of the Murtha throw down was to take the INITIATIVE AWAY from the GOP and cast the Dems as the only ones coming up with LOGICAL solutions. It worked like a charm, frankly.

See this article, and note carefully the bits I have bolded: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10118733/site/newsweek/

Murtha was the one-man tipping point. Initially a strong supporter of the conflict, he had voted for it and the money to pay for it. But on his last trip to Iraq, he had become convinced not only that the war was unwinnable, but that the continued American military presence was making matters far worse. "We're the target, we're part of the problem," he told NEWSWEEK. Back in Washington, he resumed his weekly pilgrimage to Walter Reed Army Medical Center, visiting severely wounded casualties in rehab and agonizing over what he saw there. "I think those visits affected him deeply," said DeLauro. In a long chat with an Irish colleague, he talked about his congressional hero and mentor, another blue-collar Irishman, Thomas P. (Tip) O'Neill. No liberal on defense, in 1967 O'Neill had stunned President Lyndon B. Johnson by telling him that the Vietnam War had become a lost cause. Now, Murtha mused, it was his turn to confront a president with harsh truths.

Which was precisely what the Democratic leadership wanted Murtha to do. A close ally, Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, was anxious to open a second axis of attack on Iraq—and was aware of his growing antagonism toward the war. The two met and agreed that he would make his case in private to the party conference. After that, on his own, he would introduce a resolution calling for withdrawal of troops from Iraq "at the earliest practicable date." Pelosi and the other liberals would keep their distance, while their own Marine charged up the Hill. Framed by long rows of American flags at a press conference, he denounced the Iraq war as a "flawed policy wrapped in an illusion."

Murtha had known he would set off an explosion. He did. His arrival on the House floor was greeted with cheers from fellow Democrats, by dagger glances from Republicans. A near riot ensued. An Ohio backbencher named Jean Schmidt, eager to demonstrate coldbloodedness, was given time by GOP leaders to relate a phone call from a Marine whom she said wanted "to send Congressman Murtha a message: that cowards cut and run, Marines never do." Furious Democrats charged down the aisles, fists in the air, shouting that Schmidt's words had to be stricken from the record. "You guys are pathetic!" yelled Rep. Martin Meehan of Massachusetts, while Rep. Harold Ford of Tennessee charged into the GOP side to confront them. The melee was so intense that it brought the soothing presence of Rep. Tom DeLay from his secure undisclosed location, and Schmidt eventually apologized. By a vote of 403-3, the House ultimately rejected a bowdlerized version of Murtha's resolution, which the GOP had crafted (without Murtha's permission) to sound as cravenly antiwar as possible. Seeing the obvious trap, virtually every Democrat, including Murtha, voted against it.

......As Congress fled the capital for Thanksgiving, and Bush made his way back from a trip to Asia, White House aides were studying the political videotapes to see where they had lost control of events. Among those at fault, they decided, was GOP Sen. Bill Frist, outmaneuvered early this month by the Democrats' Harry Reid, who used a parliamentary trick to force the Senate into a secret session and demand answers on WMD issues. But White House aides concede that they, too, were at fault for having assumed that Bush was personally unassailable and that events—and explanations of them—would take care of themselves. ....The war room now is back, staffed with many of the same people who ran it in 2004, led by the Boy Genius himself, Karl Rove. To answer the charges that Bush "deliberately misled" the country on WMD, the White House is arguing that most Democrats—and most U.N. officials and European intelligence agencies—thought Saddam had WMD, too. Bush aides argue that Democrats saw the same intel and came to the same conclusions Bush did (an assertion Democrats hotly dispute)......But it's unclear how calling Democrats hypocrites will help revive Bush's personal reputation. Rather than undermine Bush's foes, the strategy seems unlikely to do more than remind voters of the undeniable fact that the WMD simply weren't there. And to make their case at all, White House strategists have been forced to use a tactic they studiously avoided in the campaign: deploying Bush himself as the attack dog. "Having the president engaged in the argument is not the first choice," says Sen. John Cornyn, a Texan who is close to Bush and Rove. But the president pressed ahead. "While it is perfectly legitimate to criticize my decisions or the conduct of the war," he told a military audience in Wilkes-Barre, Pa., last week, "it is deeply irresponsible to rewrite the history of how that war began." Then he resorted once again to the argument all presidents unload in wartime: that criticism undermines morale and emboldens our enemies. "These baseless attacks," he declared, "send the wrong signal to our troops and to an enemy determined to destroy our way of life." But even using that weapon can be risky at a time when polls show most Americans doubt that the war in Iraq has made us safer....


Read the whole thing--it spells it all out.





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thefloyd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. So do we
get to use the MSM or not? MSM is not saying this!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Read Fineman's article, the MSM is basically saying what he wrote
Unless you are watching Faux, of course...!
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thefloyd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. They are???
I thought you said the MSM were less and less relevant? Which is it?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Both--they are giving the Fineman version, and then "commenting" on it
Some, like David Gregory, give us the straight poop. Others, like Tony Blankley, give us horsehit over ice cream. But the whole paradigm has shifted slightly--we are now hearing the real story, when before, it was nothing but Kool Aid over ice. Eventually we will get to the point where they stop serving Kool Aid with the news meal, but it has not quite happened yet.
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thefloyd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. No
I remember Pelosi stating Murtha did not speak for all House Democrats or something along those lines. Conservatives will pull troops in 2006, I stated this a while back and only one person agreed with me...Looks like both of us were correct, so Pelosi should have immediately backed Murtha's plan.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. There will be Repubs who will do exactly as Pelosi has done.
Let's hope so, anyway, that some of them may actually come to their senses.

I don't have a problem with Pelosi's careful maneuvering. As a leader, aligning herself sooner with Murtha may have been better, but who knows what kind of deals and what-ifs were going on behind the scenes.

I'm actually disgusted with all of them. It's even difficult for me to show great admiration for Murtha, considering his prior pro-war on Iraq position. Didn't he realize what a pathological liar bush is? Isn't a military man trained to recognize the enemy?

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Please read the article in post 17, upthread--it will explain the strategy
behind Pelosi's plan.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. Okay, I see.
I thought the OP was referring to Pelosi's position vis-a-vis Murtha, aside from the debacle of the GOP-proferred resolution.

Thanks.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. She did not do it for SEVERAL REASONS
The Democrats needed to take the high ground, and HOLD the high ground. They did it in this fashion:

First, Murtha pitched the idea to the Dem caucus. They all liked it.

Second, the Dems appeared to not be cozying up to Murtha, so as not to tip off the GOP that some shit was about to hit the fan.

Third, Pelosi in the House, and Reid in the Senate, got all of their troops on the same page as to what Murtha was going to do.

Fourth, Murtha holds his presser.

Fifth, Duncan Hunter attempts to circumvent the Murtha plan by introducing a Jane Fonda-esque parody of his plan for vote.

Sixth, Mean Jean gets up and trashes him.

Seventh, the House goes NUTS--the Democrats stage a rebellion. The GOP looks like assholes, Mean Jean is marginalized, and the Hunter parody amendment goes down in flames.

Eighth, Murtha goes on TV, again, again and again.

Ninth, Monkey tries to give his side of the story (Plan for Victory) at Annapolis.

TENTH--after we have heard from Murtha plenty, and he has repeated his points sufficiently for everyone to get an earful--PELOSI comes out with her crafted-in-advance response, smacking the crap out of the Monkey's Annapolis misadventure, so SHE can get a chunk of the news cycle and advance the Democratic agenda on the issue.
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. There are just too many Dem voices out there...I am particularly
irked by the ones running for President at this early date who are just adding to the noise.

I agree with you on Pelosi, but she's just typical of how Dems can't keep it together for very long...
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. The only one running for President is Biden, so far
Everything else you hear is JUST MEDIA NOISE. No other candidates have declared. They may be nosing about, but the media is sniffing their crotches like irritating dogs, when they SHOULD be covering this goddamn mess over in Iraq.

Of course, that would require putting themselves in harm's way. Can't have that, and the irritating climate and frequent dust storms wreck havoc on an anchorman's coiffed locks!

Far easier to engage in speculation about who is gonna do what when, despite the fact that they have virtually no information to go on. Frankly, it would not surprise me if they are getting their notes on potential Democratic candidates via fax from the RNC....
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SkiGuy Donating Member (451 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
34. How??
I don't see your validity in saying that Pelosi (dems) can't keep it together (well, in this instance anyway). The press spun it that way, but the press is wrong. Murtha got what he (and the dems) wanted...that is to get talking about ending this fiasco in Iraq.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. The Murtha plan has never been voted on.
The republicans replaced it with one that just said "immediate troop withdrawal".

It worked, because even many Dems think now that this was Murtha's plan. The House of Representatives was clear about it though, and Pelosi was entirly right voting against the REPUBLICAN plan of immediate withdrawal.

Murtha wanted the troops out of harms way "over the horizon" he called it. Close by, but not doing the fighting that they are now, and not being the targets. Perhaps our troops could provide border security and let the Iraqi forces fight it out in the Sunni triangle. Who knows? The republicans did not allow debate or a vote on it.



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tom swift Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. Pelosi/Murtha
If you think that Murtha raised a valid issue, why would it upset you that after hearing the Annapolis speech, Pelosi decided that Jack had a good point. As I heard her, she was not trying to claim Murtha's position was to be that of the House Democrats. She seemed to say she supported him.
Too many voices? That is the Democratic party! The distressing part of the follow-up to Murtha's speech was that it did not engender a debate or discussion. It resulted in the usual Republican attack dog strategy.
There should,I think, be many voices debating the course that's needed in Iraq. Unfortunately, most Dems I've read are either stuck on the arguement about whether we should have invaded or whine about why Fitzgerald hasn't indicted everyone in the administration.
Murtha should be treated as a catalyst for debate, and everyone needs to understand that this country needs a healthy debate about these issues and it is not traitorous to talk about alternatives where the troops can hear it.
If we want to be treated as children by the administration and the media, let's keep acting just the way we have for the last 5 years.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Again, read the article in post 17--which describes events that predated
the Annapolis speech.

Politics is strategy, as well as tactics. Pelosi knew what the deal was before Murtha threw down--it is all explained in the article.

But she needed to WAIT to say "me, too" otherwise HER STATEMENT would have been swallowed up in the Murtha news cycle. This way, the point gets made again, on a different day, and in response to the Idiot Monkey saying he will accept nothing less than VICTORY. PLAN for Victory, my ass!

More like you can Plan for Victory, Monkey, but you'd better PREPARE for DEFEAT.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
26. Yep, I posted on this three
days after it happened and was flamed mercilessly. If every Dem in the House and Senate had JUMPED behind him and his plan, even the Bush Media Hordes would've had to treat it seriously, as that Democratic Plan that they say never exists.
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thefloyd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. GOOD!
I think you were correct then and correct now!!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Read Fineman's article--it was all Kabuki theater. It went off exactly
the way they wanted it to.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Absolutely
Thank you for your clarity. I've been honking about this for the past two weeks, as well.

No one hears.
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SkiGuy Donating Member (451 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
35. Greatest?
This is a good one because it educates everyone as to what really happened.
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benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
36. I'm confused
by your point, other than you are disappointed in her leadership. If that is your point, I tend to agree; she should have stood by Murtha quicker. But I would argue that Murtha has far more clout than Pelosi; therefore, he could stand alone, if he chose.

I admire him for what he did. And in the long run, more stood with him the next couple of days, including some of the senators, such as John Kerry.

We need more vets to stand up and tell the truth. He did. :patriot:
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