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12/6 *** DEBATE *** Death Penalty & Stan Tookie Williams - For or Against?

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:07 AM
Original message
12/6 *** DEBATE *** Death Penalty & Stan Tookie Williams - For or Against?
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 10:21 AM by nofurylike
Have you really thought about it? Have you really made up your mind?


IF YOU FAVOR THE DP, perhaps you might want to listen to this interview, and reconsider your stand on the death penalty?

IF YOU ARE AGAINST THE DP, this might encourage you to become more involved in abolishing it.





Second Hour - the case of Stanley "Tookie" Williams

We'll take another look at the case of Stanley "Tookie" Williams, who's scheduled to be executed at San Quentin State Prison. Tom Hayden will be joined by California Assemblymember Mark Leno, who is a sponsor of the Assembly bill calling for a moratorium on the death penalty.

Listen to the interview @

http://www.pacifica.org/programs/sundaysalon/051204.html



(NOTE: This interview provides a very detailed discussion of all aspects of the death penalty, including the effects of the lethal injection. If you are willing to call for another's death, at least have the guts to learn how that person you want dead will be killed.)


Stan Tookie Williams is scheduled to die by lethal injection on Dec. 13. Gov. Schwarzenegger will hold a clemency (life w/o parole) hearing on Dec. 8.


Please contact Gov. Shwarzenegger in support of clemency:


Phone: 916-445-2841

Email: governor@governor.ca.gov

FAX: 916-445-4633

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814


Please see this previous thread. Much information:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5519400


Thank you!

*edit to fix link
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. "Never again will I raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed..
... in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world, the U.S. government."

- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.



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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
84. nofurylike, thanks for keeping this topic active!
Violence begets violence!

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #84
133. thank you so much, FrustratedDemInNC! it does. a chance to break
the cycle of violence even the slightest bit, and we're back at the eye for an eye part. forever cycling.

so sad. it's got to start somewhere.


peace...
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. Sign the Petition!
http://www.californiamoratorium.org/

I join the call for a moratorium on executions in California because I believe: 1) there is a risk of executing innocent persons; 2) there is discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, geography, or economic status, and 3) unfair and unreliable death sentences are caused by inadequate representation by defense counsel and/or improper and arbitrary conduct by the police and prosecution.


thank you
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
135. note: that petition is for California citizens only. sorry for confusing.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. PErsonally, I think lethal injection is too good for most who deserve the
DP.

Hanging would be more appropriate in many cases, such as Timothy McVeigh.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. thank you, Walt. i wish for you that no loved one is ever framed or
misjudged for capital murder, as so often happens.


peace
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...of J.Temperance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Stanley Pigshit Lower Than Whaleshit Williams WASN'T framed
He killed FOUR people, including three members of one family.

So he's going to die AND he deserves it. In seven days Williams will be wormfood. And good riddance.

Perspective.
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
65. That kind of rhetoric is not progressive, maybe repressive, here's why
Feuds or vendetta can be avoided if we are a nation of laws.
If we are a nation of laws, then rule number one has to be not to kill. Yet, ironically, the U.S. kills more that CHINA, per capita, an atheistic government with a history as bad as the U.S.'s history of war and bloodshed.
We who try to civilize government think about the wrongly accused as well as the victims of crime, and the dilema is in the details.
So anti-death penalty advocates have a very difficult case, made difficult by the type of rhetoric you have demonstrated. AND that place we all can indulge in our minds, for reducing others to such lowly non-human objects, is what the military uses to brain wash recruits and the police can also capitalize upon to justify acts of attrocity.
If there is a place for such violent retribution,as you advocate, it's not against a criminal condemned to death or a life sentence, who can only be freed by extraordinary re-trial, after years of imprisonmentbut. Maybe such barbarism as you espouse, for victims' families in the heat of the moment after learning of their loved ones dying at the hands of a killer, is appropriat. After years of mourning and suffering their loss, exercising a death penalty has different meaning for we who have suffered such a sensless loss.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #65
136. humble gratitude, Sparkman. eom.
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #65
242. A nation of laws has consequences for
breaking them. A jury of 12 people, found Mr. Williams guilty, a verdict and sentence that has stood up over 25 years of debate, appeals and legal pleadings. To include the latest "must re-open" appeal to the California Supreme Court. If you disagree with the death penalty, then your time would better spent trying to get it thrown out in general, rather than trying to sway folks towards clemency for this man. In my opinion, this man is a monster. He has demonstrated no remorse whatsoever for these crimes. His Jail-house redemption again, in my opinion, is a sham. It is nothing more than a feeble attempt to get the mercy that he denied to 4 innocent people. He nearly wiped out an entire family for the sum of 600 dollars, and killed another man for just over 100 dollars, and then mocked and laughed at the man's last gasping breaths.
Will his death accomplish anything? Will it act as a deterrent? Will it bring the victims back? To the first two questions the answer is no, and to the last one it is a definite NO. But what it will do, is uphold the laws of the nation and state, that tried, convicted and sentenced the man to death. He has had due process, and 25 years to make amends, if he hasn't done so by now, he isn't going to.
I am not always for, or always against the death penalty, there are times when it is appropriate, and there times when it is not. This case is one of the times when it is appropriate.
Is it vengeance? Quite possibly, but as an imperfect human being, I admit that I am not above revenge. Executing this man in revenge for the four INNOCENTS that he murdered, is certainly a more valid reason than he had when he executed his victims. All without due process, all without clemency, and none were given the opportunity for redemption that he has had, and failed to take advantage of.
No, Mr. Williams, should not be given clemency. Pure and simple, the man should die, and deserves to. If he has truly found salvation, then that is between he and whatever god he subscribes to.

Argue the merits of the Death Penalty if you must, but do not present Mr. Williams as a victim, he is far from it.
You want to know more about Mr. Williams
read this site

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #242
260. The greatest philosopher let the adulteress go, not stoned to death. Mercy
is the highest human act, it requires more from us than anything else requires because we must put aside our lust for vengence. In a society like the U.S., where killing is accepted and promoted to further our gross national product, killing and guns and violence thrives.
Vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord.
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #260
262. key words...
Sayeth the Lord.
I am not the Lord. I am an imperfect human being. If Mr. Williams is truly redeemed, and has salvation, then he will be exiting this world to a better place, and in reality then is being done a favor, no?

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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #262
264. Making decisions of life & death, elevates one to status reserved for ...
dieties. Delusions of divinity, god complexes and all that. just reporting on what I've read in a few scriptures.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
75. Won't the poison Kill the innocent worms?
But i'm with you. Show him the same mercy that he showed his victims.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Please provide us with
evidence that he was framed or misjudged in his original trial or in the numerous appeals (listed below):

PROCEDURAL HISTORY AND APPELLATE REVIEW
To date, Stanley Williams’ case has received extensive legal scrutiny in both state and federal court. Since his conviction in 1981, Williams has pursued multiple appeals and habeas corpus petitions. In each and every instance, in both state and federal court, his conviction has been affirmed as appropriate and just.

• On April 18, 1980, the trial court granted Williams’ motion to substitute his hand-picked attorney, Joseph Ingber, as attorney of record in place of Gerald Lenoir.
• On January 21, 1981, the jury trial commenced and on March 13, 1981, the jury returned guilty verdicts of four counts of first degree murder and two counts of robbery. The jury also found the special circumstance allegations of robbery-murder and multiple murder to be true. Lastly, the jury found true the special allegations that defendant Williams personally used a shotgun and that a principal was armed with a firearm.
• On March 17, 1981, both parties having rested without presenting evidence at the penalty phase, argument was presented on behalf of the People and defendant Williams as to whether the penalty should be death or life imprisonment without possibility of parole. Following arguments and instructions of law by the Court on this issue, the jury, on March 18, 1981, returned a verdict of death as to each of the charged first-degree murders.
• On April 15, 1981, defendant Williams’ motions for a new trial and for modification of the verdict and findings imposing the death penalty were heard by the Court and denied. The trial court then sentenced Williams to death on counts 1, 2, 3 and 7.
• On April 11, 1988, on automatic appeal to the California Supreme Court, in the cases of People v. Stanley Williams, Crim. No. 21977, and In re Stanley Williams, Crim. No. 23806, consolidated under Case No. S004365, and published at (1988) 44 Cal.3d 1127, the imposition of the death penalty was affirmed and defendant Williams’ first habeas petition was denied following an evidentiary hearing.
• On January 18, 1989, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ second state habeas petition in Case No. S008526.
• On that same date, January 18, 1988, defendant Williams filed his first federal habeas petition in the United States District Court in Case No. CV89-00327SVW. The district court held that petition in abeyance while defendant Williams returned to the California Supreme Court with his unexhausted claims.
• On April 11, 1994, following another evidentiary hearing, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ third state habeas petition in Case No. S011868, published at (1994) 7 Cal.4th 572.
• On June 21, 1995, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ fourth state habeas petition in Case No. S039285.
• On December 21, 1988, defendant Williams returned to federal court and, following an evidentiary hearing, the United States District Court denied defendant Williams’ amended habeas petition in Case No. CV89-00327-SVW, and published its order at (1998) 41 F.Supp.2d 1043.
• On December 17, 1999, defendant Williams’ subsequent Rule 60(b) motion to reopen the judgment was denied, and the order was published at (1999) 1999 WL 1320903.
• On September 10, 2002, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit denied defendant Williams’ direct appeal and Rule 6 (b) motion in Case Nos. 99-99018 and 00-99001, published at (2002)306 F.3d 665.
• On September 9, 2004, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals amended the opinion and denied defendant Williams’ petition for rehearing and suggestion for rehearing en banc, published at (2004) 384 F.3d 567.
• On February 2, 2005, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals denied defendant Williams’ subsequent petition for rehearing and suggestion for rehearing en banc, published at (2005) 396 F.3d 1059.
• Finally, on October 11, 2005, the United States Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ petition for writ of certiorari in Case No. 04-10500. As this historical accounting proves, Williams has benefited from a detailed and exhaustive review of all of his legal claims and each court has affirmed the guilty verdicts and affirmed the death sentence. In doing so, our courts, both state and federal, have given appropriate and serious consideration to Williams, consideration which Williams so violently denied each of his victims.

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. what did you think of the radio show? eom
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I listened to the interview.
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 11:41 AM by hiaasenrocks
I made notes and I've cross-checked the information with the information with the trial evidence. I'm ready to debate.

Why have you refused to talk about the trial evidence for six days now?

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

And, please, answer this finally, won't you? You repeatedly refuse to answer questions in the "debate" threads that YOU START. Why is that?

How about we start with the first point you raised this morning? Please provide factual evidence that this defendant was framed or misjudged by the original jury and the numerous appeals. I'm eager to see what all of these judges did to railroad this defendant. So let's have it. Please stick to verifiable facts as you do so. Thanks.

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. i'd like to, i've tried to, but i keep finding that no amount of
information or facts will ever meet up to the word of your beloved State spokesman. it is hopeless trying to discuss with you.

step out of that, and hear, and it might be possible.

my first reply - hardly my "first point" - was wishing that none of walt's loved ones are ever famed or misjudged, such that they would have to face walt's or your severity of judgment. i wish that for you and yours too.

that is about the death penalty, not about stanley williams in particular.

thank you
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Can you provide a link to
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 11:54 AM by hiaasenrocks
any post where you've tried to debate the facts with those of us who have been posting information and asking questions about your position?

This has been going on for six days now. Along with several others here, I've been asking questions, Walt Starr has been asking questions, and Silverhair has been asking questions. I can't find a single thread in which you have addressed the facts in the case.

You repeatedly advance the idea that he was tried by an all white jury. You've been debunked on that at least ten times now, yet you continue to post it.

You repeatedly state that he didn't receive a fair trial, yet you refuse to talk about the evidence for that. You won't tell us how the numerous appeals in many, many courts over 25 years have missed some information that you have. How did all these courts screw up?

You repeatedly start "debate" threads, but you don't debate the evidence.

I'd like to see some factual evidence here, not smears and unsubstantiated claims.

May I suggest we start with these?

1. One expended twelve-gauge shotgun shell was recovered by investigators during the crime scene investigation at the Brookhaven Motel.

2. A twelve-gauge High Standard slide-action shotgun bearing serial number 3194397, was traced to Williams. In addition, a federal “Firearms Transaction Record” records Williams’ purchase of the shotgun, on February 25, 1974. Williams signed the transaction record and used his California driver’s license for identification purposes when he purchased the shotgun.

3. A firearms expert testified that the expended twelve-gauge shotgun shell that was recovered by investigators at the Brookhaven Motel, was fired from Williams’ shotgun, to the exclusion of all other firearms.

4. Two expended twelve-gauge shotgun shells were recovered by investigators during the crime scene investigation at the 7-Eleven. Although these two shells lacked sufficient identifying characteristics to be conclusively matched to Williams’ shotgun, the firearms expert testified that they were consistent with having been fired from that weapon. Moreover, the firearms expert did not find any dissimilarity that would exclude trial exhibits 9C and 9D from having been fired from Williams’ shotgun.

5. A jury of nine caucasians, one black, one Filipino, and one Latino found Williams guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in four homicides, and unanimously voted for the death penalty. Appeals in numerous courts before many judges over a quarter of a century have all concurred with the original jury's findings.




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...of J.Temperance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Hey man, there IS no link
We already know that, don't we?
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. There must be a link!
She said she has tried to debate the facts of this case with us. I must have missed that, but I look forward to the link she provides.

Although, she could just take any one of the posts below and try to debate them. But she won't. "Debate" to her means "Read my propaganda and agree with me!"
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. this thread is provided for you to debate. people were very upset that
the original thread was not for debate.

can't please you all, either way.


peace
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Okay.
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 12:39 PM by hiaasenrocks
Can you please provide a link showing where you engaged in a debate of the trial facts? You said you had tried. Just curious where it is... I have yet to see you address the trial facts. This thread is yet another example of you asking for "debate" and then not even engaging in it.

And there are plenty of posts in this thread for you to address. I look forward to the "debate."
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. I'll debate it in any damned thread put up
You are not the thread police. You do not get to decide that one thread is for debate and another is strictly for supporting a mass murderer getting off.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. that is exactly my point. eom
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. No, actually, that was another poster's point
You start redundant threads, a practice long considered to be "Spamming" on internet message boards.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
59. I agree!
This "I love Tookie" bullshit has been going on for too damn long.

We have wasted so much time talking about Tookie and very little about his VICTIMS!!

The VICTIMS of this crime is what we need to focus on....windbagging for Tookie is a disgrace to their memory!
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. You are exactly right.
A byproduct of the Tookie Groupies' misinformation campaign is that they are denigrating the victims.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #60
88. Does opposition to the DP make one a "Tookie Groupie"?
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 03:44 PM by FrustratedDemInNC
We do NOT diminish or minimize the tragedy of victims simply because we're opposed to the DP.

The deterrence argument
Scientific studies have consistently failed to find convincing evidence that the death penalty deters crime more effectively than other punishments. The most recent survey of research findings on the relation between the death penalty and homicide rates, conducted for the United Nations in 1988 and updated in 2002, concluded: ". . .it is not prudent to accept the hypothesis that capital punishment deters murder to a marginally greater extent than does the threat and application of the supposedly lesser punishment of life imprisonment."

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. No.
I'm talking about people like Sapphire Blue and nofurylike, who have repeatedly promoted theories that this defendant is innocent, even though they refuse to discuss the trial evidence.

As for your argument about deterrence, would you suggest doing away with all punishment that isn't a deterrent? If you are going to use the "it's not a deterrent" argument, please be consistent.

That anti-DP argument is weak. Jail isn't a deterrent, so what would you suggest doing with violent criminals?
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #90
101. hiaasenrocks,
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 04:57 PM by FrustratedDemInNC
I can't compare legalized murder to any other sentence.

"Stan, the many death row prisoners, experienced racism in the
criminal justice system. His prosecutor kicked off all
African-Americans from serving as jurors in Stan's trial,
resulting in Stan being convicted by an all-white jury.

This prosecutor also made numerous racist remarks during the trial,
comparing Stan to a "Bengal Tiger" in the San Diego Zoo whose
natural jungle "habitat" was the equivalent of South Central
Los Angeles."

I don't know how anybody can ignore the above facts given the history of racism in this country.

Tookie Williams maintains his innocence of the murders but has admitted and apologized for his criminal gang activities. I have read all the facts and believe it would be a tragedy to execute this man.

The only person that knows the truth is Tookie Williams - how would any of us feel to find out he was innocent after execution? It's happened many times in the past - clemency is the answer. Redemption is possible.
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. There was a black man & 2 other minorities on the jury.Not all white. n/t
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 05:02 PM by indie_voter
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Correct. And here's the proof of
the black juror. A simple review of the facts of this case (not the propaganda from Tookie's website) will reveal the truth.

XIV.
JURY PANEL
In his petition for clemency, Williams makes the allegation that the prosecutor
“removed the only blacks from Stanley Williams’ jury. (Petition for Executive Clemency,
Dated November 8, 2005, 10). This statement, apparently made to suggest there was a racial
element to the trial, is factually incorrect. In fact, the documented evidence demonstrates
conclusively that there was a black juror on the case, and that that juror not only voted for guilt, but also voted for death.

Attached as an exhibit is a certified copy of the court minute order listing the names and
seat numbers of the respective jurors. (P. Exh. 16). Also attached as an exhibit is a certified copy of the death certificate of Juror #12, William James McLurkin. (P. Exh. 17). In that death certificate, the race of Mr. McLurkin is clearly listed as “Black.” In addition, Juror #1, Larry Sabala, has provided a sworn affidavit which confirms that one of the jurors was black. According to Mr. Sabala, “one of the jurors who served with me was a black man. It was obvious to everyone that he was a black man.” (P. Exh. 18).
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. It is my understanding that the particular juror was of more than one...
... racial heritage, but appeared to be Filipino (I think it was Filipino... I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong). It was not known until after the trial that this particular juror was also of black ancestry... again, it was not apparent that this particular juror was of black ancestry during the trial, which, in effect, essentially supports the claims that it was the racist prosecutor's goal to keep blacks off the jury. Had he known of this particular juror's ancestry, perhaps this would also have been a dismissed juror.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Wow, talk about wild speculation. Is that all you have? n/t
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. You refuse to even acknowledge racism exists in this country.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. Where did I refuse to admit racism exists in this country?
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 05:40 PM by hiaasenrocks
Go ahead, show me the link.

I'm white and I have a bi-racial niece. Her father is black. You don't think I see the looks she gets? You don't think I've seen the treatment my sister gets from people when they realize her husband was black? Of course there is racism in this country.

Please stick to the facts. And stop promoting the lie that this defendant was tried by an all-white jury and the prosecutor "kicked off" all black jurors.

That has been thoroughly debunked here a number of times, most recently when you advanced the lie. Please do some research.
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #108
118. Juror #1 provided a sworn affidavit on this matter
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 06:16 PM by indie_voter
" In addition, Juror #1, Larry Sabala, has provided a sworn affidavit which confirms that one of the jurors was black. According to Mr. Sabala, “one of the jurors who served with me was a black man. It was obvious to everyone that he was a black man.” (P. Exh. 18)."

The jury which convicted Tookie Williams was not all white.


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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #118
121. Link to the "sworn affidavit", please.
When was it dated?

What was the purpose of this "sworn affidavit" if it was so obvious that the juror in question was black (or of black ancestry)?
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #121
123. Link to the DAs response to Clemency request
Where the affidavit is part of the response.

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

The purpose of the affadvit is in response to claims like yours, that people didn't know he was black.

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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #123
126. She has refused to read the trial evidence for
over a week now. Just like "nofurylike" and the other Tookie groupies.

Good effort on your part, though. :)

There's a decent chance she will respond with a smear of the prosecutor. We'll see....
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #123
128. Nov. 2005... CLEARLY long after the trial; the juror was DEAD.
His race was on his death certificate.

P Exh 18 does not appear to be included in the link that you provided, only a reference to it. When was it dated (the affidavit)?

If it was so obvious that the juror in question was black, why the need for an sworn affidavit providing another juror's opinion that it was obvious that he was a black man? One could only surmise that this particular juror did not appear to be a black man.
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #128
130. Nov 2005 is when the response is dated, not the affidavit
Neither you nor I know the date of that. Perhaps we should email the DA's office and ask?

Why the need for the sworn affidavit? To respond to claims by Tookie and his supporters that the jury was all white. It wasn't.

How long has Tookie been claiming he was convicted by an all white Jury? I don't know?

I appreciate your passion, our strongest disagreement is Tookie is some type of victim of racism or a miscarriage of justice.

There are many people out there who are, I think this Tookie hysteria does them a great disservice.

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #130
134. The affidavit APPEARS to be in response to the recent appeal.
IF so, it would have been dated very recently. Why, if the juror in question, was so 'obviously black', why would anyone conclude that all blacks were dismissed as jurors? It would be much too easy to disprove such a conclusion.

Have all of the other jurors sworn that the juror in question was 'obviously black'? Has anyone, other than this lone juror, provided such an affidavit?

If he was 'obvioulsy black', this would have been pointed out decades ago, especially during the trial, instead of it being pointed out decades later, after the information was discovered on the juror's death certificate.

I see the racism that has tainted this case. Others don't.
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #134
137. Who has concluded that the jury was all white?
News accounts during the trial? Trial spectators?

Or perhaps Tookie himself who was looking for an angle? When did he first claim the Jury was all white?

If he didn't, who did?

Why claim such a thing when it is easily disproved?

MHO, If he throws out a claim that enough people want to believe (because of evidence of others having had such a situation, tainted Jury, etc) and gather enough supporters, the myth then becomes it's own reality regardless of fact.

When the truth comes out, most people won't even hear about it, or if they do, will make excuses for it.

Tookie was not convicted by an all white jury. Now that it is proved that he was 'wrong', why hasn't he cleared this up with his supporters?

This false premise (all white jury) is repeated everywhere.

I disagree with your premise, racism has tainted THIS case. That doesn't mean it hasn't in others.

I think the jury returned with the just verdict. Guilty.

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. Thank goodness the juror in question had a drop of black blood.
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 07:35 PM by Sapphire Blue
<Edited to add: As documented on his death certificate.>

It proves there was no racism. :sarcasm:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. Here Ya Go, In Case You Forgot
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #138
141. The only thing it proves is
the claim that Tookie was convicted by an all white jury is false.

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #141
142. Odd that no one knew this (that he was of black ancestry)
... at the time of the trial, that it was believed that he was Filipino... until the information regarding his death certificate was publicized.

indie_voter, you will never see what you refuse to look at. Keep believing whatever you want if it helps ease your conscience, helps maintain your closely held beliefs.

Up is down.

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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #142
143. Do you have proof that his race was not known?
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 08:03 PM by indie_voter
News reports?? Anything? How do you know people didn't know?

If what you claim is true (nobody knew the juror was black or of mixed race), contact the Tookie defense team, Juror 1 can be charged with providing a false affidavit.

Sapphire Blue, you will never see what YOU refuse to look at.

Keep believing a murderer is a man of peace.

Up is down indeed.

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #143
171. You will obviously continue to deny that the trial was tainted by racism.
Just as I will continue to believe that this man is now a man of peace.

Your view contributes to racism thriving in the legal system.

My view allows a man to stay in prison, where he can encourage young people to leave/avoid gang life.

I can live w/my views, as, apparently, so can you.

I really have nothing more to say.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #137
146. nine judges on the 9th circuit court of appeals did.
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

RAWLINSON, Circuit Judge, with whom PREGERSON,
REINHARDT, THOMAS, WARDLAW, W. FLETCHER,
FISHER, PAEZ, and BERZON, Circuit Judges join, dissenting
from denial of rehearing en banc:
In this case, a prosecutor, publicly castigated by the Supreme Court of California for his pattern of racially motivated peremptory jury challenges, removed all blacks from Williams’ jury. In declining to take this case en banc, our court bestows an implicit imprimatur upon the trial court’s denial of a constitutionally mandated jury selection process.
In my view, the panel opinion contains two errors: (1) failure
to issue a certificate of appealability (COA) to Williams despite his satisfaction of the standard for the grant of a COA, and (2) misapplication of the standard of proof to establish a prima facie case of Batson error. By increasing the burden of proof necessary to make a Batson prima facie showing, the panel cleared the way for attorneys “who are of a mind to discriminate” by exercising their peremptory challenges to excise prospective African-American jurors from the jury box. Batson v. Kentucky, 476 U.S. 79, 96 (1986).
I dissent from the denial of rehearing en banc not only because every defendant is entitled to a jury that is unbiased and untainted by racial discrimination in the jury-selection process, but also because the very legitimacy of our system of justice depends upon continued vigilance against such prac-tices.

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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #146
149. Thanks, could you post the link to the rest of this?
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 08:39 PM by indie_voter
I would like to read it in it's entirety (the decision and the dissent)

Do they say they believe that it wasn't known by the prosecutor that one of the jurors was black? Is there any testimony from others that this juror did not (edited to add not) appear to be black or said he wasn't to his fellow jurors, friends, etc?

I really would like to understand better where this all white juror claim came from.

Have Tookie's lawyers been claiming that the jury was all white from the first appeal?

Many thanks!

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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #146
167. nofurylike, thanks for posting the facts.

"In this case, a prosecutor, publicly castigated by the Supreme Court of California for his pattern of racially motivated peremptory jury challenges, removed all blacks from Williams’ jury. In declining to take this case en banc, our court bestows an implicit imprimatur upon the trial court’s denial of a constitutionally mandated jury selection process."


Recently, there seems to be quite a bit of history revisionism at play regarding this case. The prosecutor compared Tookie Williams to a "Bengal Tiger", a metaphor referencing his residence in South Central.

That is a racial slur, pure and simple. Do we find these actions acceptable by the prosecutor in yesterday or today's society? This must not be tolerated, regardless of the defendants' alleged crime.


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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #167
169. thank you, FrustratedDemInNC! it is INTOLERABLE!! it is RACISM, pure
and simple! and WE MUST NOT TOLERATE IT!!

thank you so much! you speak so clearly!


solidarity
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #146
245. The other 13 didnt....
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 04:28 AM by KC_25




















edited 15 typo to 13
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #134
244. It is obvious why the sworn affidavit is needed..
It is to counter all the claims that he was convicted by an all white jury. That is a big "No, Shit". If there werent accusations abound, there most likely would not have been an affidavit? No?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #121
176. your reasoning is spot-on, Sapphire Blue. i'm sorry it is not grasped by
so many.

but please know that it is grasped and appreciated by many of us.

peace
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #176
253. why it is not grasped...
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #121
243. the purpose of the sworn affidavit was
was most likely to counter all the claims that Mr. Williams was convicted by an all white jury?
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #118
124. On a related note, I wonder when the pro-Tookie folks are
going to explain to us how it is impossible for jurors to be unbiased toward defendants of another race.

That's really what their argument hinges on.

I guess blacks can't be fair to whites. I guess Asians can't be fair to Hispanics. I guess no whites should ever sit on a jury unless the defendant is white.

The cry of "racism" in this case is a desperate, last-ditch effort to confuse the issue because this defendant's supporters are completely unwilling and incapable of discussing the evidence. That has been demonstrated here in hundreds of exchanges in the last week or so.

They have been duped by a PR stunt that relies on misinformation and unfounded smears.

Typical.

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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #124
263. The "specifics" for me are meaningless ~ DP is Barbaric!!!!!


and that is all I need to understand.

I am not a judge or a jury, I only get to say what is in my heart.

I am not here to debate "the specifics of the case."

I do not EVER need specifics to be oppose to the Death Penalty.

I love my family with all my heart and if something happened to them --I would NEVER ask for the Death Penalty. NEVER, under ANY circumstances.

It is BARBARIC and it will not bring my love ones back nor will it stop others from being BARBARIC criminals!

I am in no way trying to avoid debating "the specifics "with you.
If you know anything about goclark, I will speak my mind, as you do! :)

It is a complete waste of my time and yours because there is nothing that anyone can say to you , or others, who see it in their heads that they should be FOR the Death Penalty.

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #108
144. thank you, Sapphire Blue. it is record that the majority of the judges on
the 9th circuit court also could not tell that any juror was Black. considering the prosecutor's (twice reprimanded) history of race-based jury selection, i imagine he would have stricken that particular juror, could he have known.


peace
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #144
145. Do you have a link? Thanks in advance. n/t
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #145
150. yes. on the following Ninth Circuit Opinions page, scroll down to
Feb 2, 2005 - Williams vs Woodford.
second page.

the actual document link is too long for DU, but opens on the court page.

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/Opinions%20by%20date?OpenView&Start=1&Count=100&Expand=1.11#1.11


peace
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #150
154. Thanks! n/t
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #154
156. you're very welcome. i find that a very heavy document. i look forward
to hearing what you think.

thank you!


peace
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #156
161. LOL! Yes, it is a very heavy document
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 09:36 PM by indie_voter
It is the dissent, so the majority believed otherwise.

I haven't read it by any means, so far, it seems to be arguing that three other black jurors were improperly not allowed on the jury.

I am still trying to understand the all white jury claim when there were non white people on the jury (non white of course is not the same as black. I would also like to understand more about the dead juror, see a photo, understand if his family & friends thought of him as African American? Did he hide it, was he of mixed race? ).

I look forward to discussing this more with you when I've read it.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #161
168. bested again. i trusted you, so, i am weaker than you. an easy fool.
do you feel good?

nine JUDGES dissented the denying of his due legal process.

thirteen denied them to him.

i understand that you do not care about that. but it does not make it less true.

nine JUDGES are who said "ALL Blacks" were removed from the jury.

thirteen said that it was okay to remove ALL BLacks.

do you think they were ALL blind that there was one Black person on the jury?

or was it that one juror had African blood that was not visible?

either way, the precedent for jury 'scrubbing' is an outrage.

but you do not care about that either, do you?
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #168
170. That is right, the 9 judges dissented
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 11:06 PM by indie_voter
the denying of his due legal process. Thirteen judges thought he was not denied due legal process.

I am trying to understand the original point under discussion, that

"everyone thought the juror wasn't black"

Did the 13 judges who didn't dissent not know one of the jurors was black too?

Did they (the full court) know the racial makeup of the jury? What information did they have about the jury? Did they know there were non whites on the jury (not black, but not white either, Tookie's site says Latino and Filipino. Is the filipino the dead (supposed black) juror? Or is the dead juror a different one?)

I am trying to understand why they were "all blind that there was one black person on the jury".

People have claimed the jury was all white, it wasn't. Now the argument has changed to there were no blacks on the jury.

There is evidence there was, however, it is unclear that people knew he was black, regardless of Juror #1 sworn affidavit.

Does this make Tookie innocent, I don't think so. I think he is guilty.

Does this prove jury scrubbing, not yet. This dispute of the dead juror's race and what the prosecutor knew about his race is something I personally would like to understand. I am very confused if there were three minorities (1 latino, 1 filipino and 1 black) or two (1 latino, 1 mixed race, filipino/black).

Now is Jury scrubbing an outrage? Yes.

Do I care about that? You bet, especially as a non-white (and non judeo-christian, a double whammy. ;)) minority. LOL! I've experienced my share of prejudice to know it exists and it ain't pretty.

I just do not see Tookie as a victim of racism or a victim period. He is a dangerous killer.

I respect the anti-dp stand, but not the movement to turn tookie in to a victim of racism, miscarriage of justice and/or a peacemaker.

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #170
181. 13 judges said it was okay that all blacks were removed. that's ok? eom
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #181
187. did they know the racial makeup of the jury? That it wasn't all white?
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 11:46 PM by indie_voter
(they meaning the full court not just the dissenters) That is what I am trying to understand.

All blacks were not removed. There was a black man on the jury. The argument is now that nobody knew he was black. Including the ninth circuit. What did they know about the rest of the jurors?

Did the ninth court know about the latino and the filipino? Is the filipino juror dead or is the juror who is said to be black a different one?

What evidence was put in front of the court re: racial makeup of the jury?


I keep reading about 'all white jury' even in the dissent and I don't understand because the jury was not all white, the save tookie site even admits that.

I am looking for mention of the racial makeup of the jury in the dissent, and will keep slogging through trying to figure this out.

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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #181
248. But all black jurors werent removed were they?
Nope
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #108
147. Wrong, as usual.
It has been posted (With references) several times in this thread that he was an OBVIOUS black. There were THREE minorities on the jury.

You continue to ignore the facts and instead post lies.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. PLEASE stop promoting this lie about the jurors!
If you would do some research you would find that there was one black, one Hispanic, and one Filipino on the jury. It wasn't an all-white jury, and the prosecutor did NOT "kick off" all the black jurors.

You are (possibly unwittingly) promoting a lie. Do the research. This lie has been debunked at least 10 times in these threads about this defendant.
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #103
265. It cant be a LIE if it SUPORTS tookie!
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #101
155. excellent point, FrustratedDemInNC! where there is any doubt, ANY even
suggestion of doubt, that case must simply be out of the question for DP!

as an abolitionist, i feel ALL should be, of course. but with ANY doubt, it should be automatically out of the question, while states still have the DP.

thank you!


peace
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #88
139. thank you for that information, FrustratedDemInNC. it is very important.
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
76. Have you listed, anywhere, exculpatory evidence, or are you one sided 2
Juries have been equally convinced by the state, and several hundred exonerations, some posthumously, also have occured.
Even if this guy is guilty, executing him now, years after the crimes, has a very different significance for those of us who have lost loved ones to murder. Progressives have our dilemma, opposing state sponsored killing of innocents abroad and then what do we say about the problematic justice system's propensity for exections and district attorney's who have demonstrated extraordinary reluctance to review exculpatory evidence post conviction?
Risking the barbaric act of execution, or justifying it, seems to go against our sense of fairness, especially after reviewing the statistics of the class and race status of death penalty recipients.

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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #76
93. I have posted, numerous times now, the
evidence from the trial and the many, many appeals this defendant has received.

If you are morally opposed to the DP, that's fine. I have respect for that position.

My problem is with the people who are promoting theories that call this defendant's guilt into question, and they REFUSE to discuss the trial evidence and the fact that he was found guilty and a jury voted unanimously to sentence him to death, and numerous appeals over 25 years have all concurred with that original jury's findings.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
48. nofurylike, I sincerely hope that everyone replying to this thread answers
... this question. As you said, "if you are willing to call for another's death, at least have the guts to learn how that person you want dead will be killed."

This is a devastating interview, a devastating commentary on our so called 'civilized' society. How on earth can anyone support the DP? Regardless of whomever is to be executed, the DP is barbaric. It is barbaric.

May God / Goddess / Allah / Jehovah / YHWH / the Creator / Waheguru / the One have mercy on us, awaken our souls and restore humanity.

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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. How will you know if people are answering her? You have
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 12:56 PM by hiaasenrocks
been putting people on ignore if they disagree with you. You two are totally incapable of addressing the trial facts.

I am one of the people you put on ignore, so you won't even see this message.

So much for being open-minded. Oh well...
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. it is a devastating interview. thank you, Sapphire Blue. for all you do!
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. If it's devastating, why won't you discuss it
along with the trial facts? Sounds like you think this is a slam-dunk. Let's see it.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #53
77. Where are all the answers to your question: "what did you think of...
... the radio show?"

So many replies to this thread; has anyone listened to the interview, and responded to that question? Can anyone defend this barbaric death penalty? Does anyone even have the guts to listen to the interview, seeing that so many support the DP? Does anyone have the guts to look at what they defend???

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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #77
85. You can't see the answers because you
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 03:38 PM by hiaasenrocks
put people on ignore if they disagree with you!

Who doesn't see through this bullshit?
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #77
94. I listened
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 04:54 PM by indie_voter
MHO, the DP has problems in the way it is meted and the way it is carried out.

Does it need an overhaul? Yes. However, I believe it has it's place in society (for the most heinous of crimes like killing children, old people and serial killers like Bundy) but respect those who don't agree.

The doctor describing how the lethal injection worked was compelling in conveying the pain the person might suffer, the problems with not allowing monitoring, etc.

However, how about the painful way Tookie's victims died? The last moments as a bullet smashed through them?

Were they told if they didn't fight, they wouldn't die? What about their pain and suffering.

Killing Tookie won't bring them back, I grant you that. However I am very tired of hearing Tookie described as 'a man of peace', or a 'peacemaker'

He is a murder, a co-founder of a violent gang.

He wrote a couple books yet will not turn against his gang. If he cooperated and 'snitched', he could save far more children than the few books he has written (along with his ghost writer). Why won't he?

I heard very little about the victims in that interview (a throw away line or two from Hayden I think it was), it was all about poor oppressed Tookie. Perhaps the first segment should have been about the lethal injection, the second about Tookie in particular.

There are two debates here. Tookie as the oppressed man who an injustice has been visited upon and the DP at large.

MHO Tookie Williams is not a very good poster child for arguing against the latter.


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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #94
117. I appreciate that you listened.
We disagree on the necessity of a DP. IMO, life w/o parole is sufficient. Again, that is my very strong opinion.

The pain of all murder victims, the terror felt by murder victims, their last moments, all so horrific. Their suffering should never have happened. That it did is an atrocity.

We agree that killing Williams, who was convicted of four murders, will not bring any dead people back. Neither will it undo any of horrors suffered by any victim. The DP serves to continue making the state a barbaric state.

Yes, he co-founded the Crips... in reaction to the already existing gangs... trying to fight off those already existing gangs... and he turned into exactly what he despised. He did not invent gangs.

You may be tired of hearing Stan Tookie Williams described as a peacemaker. Nevertheless, I will not tire of saying that, despite whatever he did in his past, he is now a peacemaker. As a peacemaker, he can, and is, leading others away from gang violence. He is preventing further victims.

My concern is for the future... I wish for no more gang violence, I wish for no more victims, I wish for no more barbarism, not by the individual, not by the state, not by the country, not by anyone. And this is what I work for.
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. I disagree he is a peacemaker
Why won't he give anybody who asks all the information they request on the inner workings of the Crips? Why won't he (to use his words) "snitch"?

He could lead more people away from gang violence if he could provide information on their inner workings and help dismantle them.

Why won't he do that? Why is gang loyalty more important?

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #119
125. Perhaps his loyalty lies w/saving others from gangs...
... either as members, or as victims.

I have heard his explanation as to his not being debriefed... debriefing is not required for members of street gangs, only of prison gangs. The Crips are a street gang. As he has been in prison, and no longer active in the Crips for these many years, he would have little information that would even "provide information on their <current> inner workings" that would "help dismantle them".

I am not defending, nor am I condemning his choice to not "snitch" in regard to street gangs. He has made his choice on how to contribute to lessening gang violence.
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. How does he know what is of use and what isn't?
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 06:48 PM by indie_voter
He should cooperate to the fullest extent. He could have valuable information and not even know it.

It doesn't matter if it isn't "required". He has a moral obligation to provide whatever insight he can to those who are trying to dismantle these gangs.

He made the choice to put gang loyalty over helping the authorities in any way he can. How many lives could he save if he gave the authorities all the information they want/need?

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #127
129. That he would be more effective by providing info to the authorities...
... is your opinion.

He has made his own choice as to how he can be most effective, how he can best help to save lives. He is the only one responsible for his choices in answering to his moral obligations. Whether you or I agree or disagree with him is beside the point.
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #129
131. Sure it is, just as it is yours that he is a peacemaker.
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 07:07 PM by indie_voter
He has refused requests from the authorities to provide information. He is not cooperating with the authorites.

You don't know that he couldn't be of any help, any more than I know he could be.

He could prove that he wouldn't be by offering up everything he knows, to show good faith.

Why won't he? Why is not being a 'snitch' more important than offering up any piece of info he knows, small it may be?



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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #125
246. why didnt he "snitch" so many years ago..
I am listening to the interview, and I am completely and utterly unmoved. This "barbaric death" is certainly better than the one that he dished out to at least 4 people.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #77
165. I listened. I still favor DP slightly,

I think DP should be used sparingly.

In Tookie's case, I don't know if I would have voted for the DP if I were a juror, but the actual jurors did.

I am unconvinced of his redemption. He apparently won't help authorities solve CRIP crime and name gang members because of his sense of dignity.

Dignity. That just astounds me that he uses that word to defend his unwillingness to fully confess to his and his organization's crimes.


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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #48
78. Lethal Injection is too damned humane if you ask me
Impalement for mass murderers is probably too good for them.
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ptolle Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #78
213. get that from church didja walt?
I suppose you'd like to return to the days of public drawings and quarterings?I'm going to quit now, before I get started on what's too good for some people and who those people are.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #213
261. Nope, but hanging of mass murderers in the old style would seem justified
to me any way.

I am not a Christian.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #48
95. Sapphire Blue, excellent point.
We are the only industrialized country still practicing this barbaric act. Amnesty International couldn't agree with you more.

"The death penalty is disgusting, particularly if it condemns an innocent. But it remains an injustice even when it falls on someone who is guilty of a crime."
Giuliano Amato, Prime Minister of Italy, 14 September 2000, commenting on a scheduled execution in Virginia USA

--------------------------------------------------

Executions are known to have been carried out in the following countries in 2004:

AFGHANISTAN, BANGLADESH, BELARUS, CHINA, EGYPT, INDIA, INDONESIA, IRAN, JAPAN, JORDAN, KOREA (NORTH), KUWAIT, LEBANON, PAKISTAN, SAUDI ARABIA, SINGAPORE, SOMALIA, SUDAN, SYRIA, TAIWAN, TAJIKISTAN, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, UZBEKISTAN, VIET NAM, YEMEN

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-sentences-eng


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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
81. Is anyone answering this question?
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 03:10 PM by Sapphire Blue
Has anyone had the guts to listen to this compelling interview?

Could anyone have the guts to defend the DP, to defend their support of it, after listening to this interview?

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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #81
91. I listened to it, but you
refuse to discuss the case with people who disagree with you. You put us on ignore, and that's why you keep running around here asking "why won't people answer this?" It makes you look stupid.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #91
173. talk about stupid
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #173
221. Good grief, your posts are laughable.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 12:47 AM by hiaasenrocks
Are you EVER going to talk about the trial facts?
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #81
252. I have listened
alot more peaceful death, than he dished out on the others...

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
82. Could it be that this question, like the racist application of the DP,
... is another question that will be ignored???
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #82
92. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. Statistics.
Let's compare those figures to the population of Whites vs. African Americans.

Whites - 75.1%

African Americans - 12.3%

The numbers speak for themselves!

The color of a defendant and victim's skin plays a crucial and unacceptable role in deciding who receives the death penalty in America. People of color have accounted for a disproportionate 43 % of total executions since 1976 and 55 % of those currently awaiting execution. A moratorium of the death penalty is necessary to address the blatant prejudice in our application of the death penalty.



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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Will you comment on the
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 04:35 PM by hiaasenrocks
fact that blacks are seven times more likely to commit homicide than whites?

This is a taboo subject, I know. People get labeled "racist" for citing this stat. But it's a fact.

What impact do you think that has on their representation on death row?
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #97
115. It needs to be discussed.
New Age Racism: “We Made the Corrections, Now Get On With It”


Why are African-Americans twice as likely to be unemployed as whites? Why is the poverty rate for blacks more than twice the rate for whites? Why do nearly one out of every two blacks earn less than $25,000 while only one in three whites makes that little? Why is median black household income ($27,000) less than two thirds of median white household income ($42,000)? Why is Black families’ median household net worth is less than 10 percent that of white? Why are blacks much less likely to own their own homes than whites? Why do African-Americans make up roughly half of the United States’ massive population of prisoners (2 million) and why are one in three young black male adults in prison or on parole or otherwise under the supervision of the American criminal justice system? Why do African-Americans continue in severe geographic separation from mainstream society, still largely cordoned off into the nation’s most disadvantaged communities thirty years after the passage of civil rights fair housing legislation? Why do blacks suffer disproportionately from irregularities in the American electoral process, from problems with voter registration to the functioning of voting machinery? Why does black America effectively constitute a Third World enclave of sub-citizens within the world’s richest and most powerful state?

Convinced that racism is no longer a significant barrier for blacks because there are African-Americans in high policy positions and serving as anchors on the Six O-Clock News, most whites find answers to these questions inside the African-American community itself. If serious racial disparities persist, if black continue to live both separately and unequally, white America and even some privileged blacks (e.g. John McWhorter of the Manhattan Institute) think, its because of their own choices and because too many blacks engage in “self-sabotaging” and related “separatist” behaviors. “As white America sees it, “ note Leonard Steinhorn and Barbara Diggs-Brown in their excellent study By The Color of Their Skin: the Illusion of Integration and the Reality of Race, (2000), “every effort has been to welcome blacks into the American mainstream and now they’re on their own.”

Predominant white attitudes at the turn of the millennium are well summarized by the comments of a white respondent to a survey conducted by Essence magazine. “No place that I’m aware of,” wrote the respondent, “makes people ride on the back of the bus or use a different restroom in this day and age. We got the message; we made the corrections – get on with it.”

-more-

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=30&ItemID=2784


This is an excellent article - I hope you will read it.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. Excuse me, but with all due respect
you have yet to address the points I raised in ANSWERING your post. Do you have anything to say about that?

For what it's worth, I have read that piece before. But I will do so again, in the interest of being fair in this debate.

I find it curious that you won't answer, in your own words, the points I raised.

I hope you will be able to refrain from making comletely unfounded personal claims about my beliefs, as you did in a previous post regarding my view on racism. I answered you, and explained how you are totally wrong, and I also asked for proof of your accusation. Are you going to provide that proof?
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. One more stat.
45.9% of homicides are committed by whites, 52.1% by blacks. (Most recent figures from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.)

source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

12.3% of the population commits 52.1% of the homicides. Don't you think that has an impact on the death row "over representation"?

Again, I know people won't like this, and some will call me a racist, but these are the facts pertinent to this discussion.

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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #96
178. Speak FrustratedDemin NC! Speak!
Now , those are the numbers that make African Americans KNOW that there would be no problem if the same JUSTICE that is handed out for the 75 % is anything like what is handed out for us.




Wise Words of FrustratedDemin NC:

"Whites - 75.1%

African Americans - 12.3%

The numbers speak for themselves!

The color of a defendant and victim's skin plays a crucial and unacceptable role in deciding who receives the death penalty in America. People of color have accounted for a disproportionate 43 % of total executions since 1976 and 55 % of those currently awaiting execution. A moratorium of the death penalty is necessary to address the blatant prejudice in our application of the death penalty."


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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #178
197. Thanks, goclark!
The numbers speak volumes - see post below with more info on those figures. Racism is alive and well in this country.

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #178
259. thank you for these numbers, goclark! (finally saw them) IMPORTANT!!!!eom
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #96
190. outstanding, FrustratedDemInNC! i've been waiting for someone to
debunk that. i just don't have the math acuity or numbers to do it, but it's so glaringly off that it's been diggin at me.

thank you!


peace
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #190
196. If you had no idea how to handle
the data, then why were you so sure it was wrong?

This post of yours proves that you hold fast to beliefs, even when you have no idea why you have those beliefs. Actually, all of these Tookie threads prove that.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #196
212. it doesn't take much to see you were way off. i just couldn't take time
to gather the stats.

most know that whites outnumber blacks by what is shown here. you just demand such accuracy, i waited for someone who could do that.

thank you for asking
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #212
214. Thanks for your blazing insight.
That post matches all the rest you've contributed.

So...when are we going to discuss the facts of the trial?

Let me know. I've been waiting for you to do that for about six days now.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #96
194. Numbers
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 11:37 PM by FrustratedDemInNC
Population in U.S. -2005

Whites - 75.1%
African Americans - 12.3%


Death Row Inmates - 2004

White - 1,851
African Americans - 1,390


There are 6.25x more Whites than African Americans in the Unites States.

This means that there's a 4 1/2x greater chance of an African American being on death row than a White.

Stanley "Tookie" Williams has made a huge impact on thousands of inner city kids living in poverty stricken areas. He's written books on the danger of gang violence and promotes a peaceful, hopeful alternative to drugs and crime.

We are the only industrialized country that still allows the barbaric practice of legalized murder. Tookie Williams will continue to contribute to the younger generation with his writings and messages, execution would be a tragedy.

Redemption is possible.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #194
195. Still ignoring some of the data, I see, FrustratedDemInNC
45.9% of homicides are committed by whites, 52.1% by blacks. (Most recent figures from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.)

source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

12.3% of the population commits 52.1% of the homicides. Could this have an impact on the death row "over representation"?

I know people won't like this, and some will call me a racist, but if we are to have an honest debate about this, then we may as well use the data pertinent to this discussion.

And why won't you answer the question at the following link, or retract your baseless personal attack? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5527516&mesg_id=5531286

You seemed pretty sure of yourself...until you were asked to provide evidence. Let me help you out here. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE. And you don't even have the guts to retract that statement. That really speaks to your character.

Why do you have a problem with sticking to facts?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #82
237. no, not ignored. lied about. eom
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #82
251. check this site out
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
79. I've read the trial info and I'm convinced of Tookie's guilt.
All the children's books in the world won't make up for what he did, especially since he's never acknowledged his guilt or asked for forgiveness. Whether he's executed or lives the rest of his life in prison, he and the families of his victims will have to deal with that.

As for the death penalty itself, I have mixed feelings about it.

My brother was a correctional officer at San Quentin and knew Tookie Williams personally. I know for a fact my brother was psychologically brutal to Death Row inmates and I suspect he was physically brutal as well. My brother alleges Tookie engaged in gang activities long after his "change of heart" and probably still does to this day. Who knows whether or not this is true? :shrug: For me the point is moot because Tookie is a murderer who remains in denial and unapologetic.

Our father taught my brother to beat up on the weak, which included his little sister and animals. From what I've seen, there's been no change of heart. It's just easier to exert power over people behind bars and get paid for it. Like I said, I don't know for sure how my brother treats the inmates physically, but I know he does whatever he can to torment them emotionally. My brother used to take pride in the fact that he would be happy to drag the inmates "kicking and screaming" to the gas chamber. He walked past their cells singing, "Plop, plop! Fizz, fizz! Oh, what a relief it is!" This was in reference to cyanide pills dropping down in California's old gas chamber.

So, does the death penalty make monsters of us all? I don't know. I think my brother had a tendency to be monstrous before he became a correctional officer. He's outgrown beating up on his little sister. I don't know if he's outgrown torturing animals. He certainly doesn't care about animals. And I know he doesn't care about inmates because he views them as animals, as do many of the posters to this thread. I've seen how taking such a position diminishes the humanity of prisoner and guard alike.

I'm leaning toward not supporting the death penalty at all, but I have mixed feelings about capital punishment because 1) it is not uncommon for those on Death Row to kill again while in prison, 2) it is not uncommon for those on Death Row to be innocent of their crimes, 3) "life in prison" doesn't really mean life in prison, 4) executing criminals takes a toll on those whose job it is to carry it out, forcing them either to view the inmate as sub-human or to grieve for the loss of a human life, no matter how warped that life was.

I would be for abolishing the death penalty if 1) "life in prison" really means life in prison, 2) correctional officers get special training to deal with very violent inmates to prevent violence directed toward other prisoners and staff and 3) correctional officers understand the risks of dealing with very violent inmates and receive hazard pay and insurance.

I wish the system would weed out people like my brother, but instead, it attracts them. The way these correctional officers treat the inmates probably makes the inmates more prone to violence.

My brother has no doubt realized I didn't think his little "jokes" on the Death Row inmates were funny, so I'm not likely to hear more about what goes on behind the walls. Luckily, he doesn't work at San Quentin anymore, so it may have given his views some time to soften. I hope so, for my brother's sake, as well as the sake of the inmates.

Respectfully Submitted,

Ladyhawk Threadkiller
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. Thank you for your thoughtful post n/t
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
184. Yeah, framed...
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
182. I prefer a firing squad.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #182
199. So does Saudi Arabia.
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 11:49 PM by FrustratedDemInNC
We also seem to be spreading our version of democracy to Iraq, as well.

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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #199
208. point being?
Seems to me like firing squads would be ideal. Quick, not too messy, inexpensive.
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...of J.Temperance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. I deleted my Clinton thread because we had ANOTHER Clinton thread
I'm tired of these MULTIPLE threads DEFENDING a FOUR TIME KILLER.

Jesus H. Christ...I'll be glad when the motherfucker is dead on December 13th...and then the threads will also stop.

Four innocent people...stick the needle IN Stanley already.

As Walt Starr said, it's too easy a way out for him. But it's all there is, so put the SOB down first thing on December 13th.

And NOBODY bother responding to this post. I'm not even bothering, it's impossible to have a rational discussion.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
6. His Life, His Victims
December 2, 2005

As We See It: Williams: His life, his victims



On March 11, 1979, Stanley "Tookie" Williams broke down a door of the Brookhaven Motel in Los Angeles — according to a jury — and shot hotel owners Yen-I Yang and wife Ysai-Shai, and their daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, who was visiting from Taiwan.

A jury also convicted Williams of murdering Albert Owens in a Whittier 7-Eleven around the same time.

Williams is scheduled to die by lethal injection on Dec. 13, unless his life is spared by California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

A variety of death penalty opponents as well as political activists and a number of entertainers have come forward to call on Schwarzenegger to spare Williams' life. They argue that Williams is a changed man — and one who can teach even from a prison cell that young people should avoid the gang life and the world of violence.

Bruce Gordon, president and chief executive officer of the NAACP, has appealed to Schwarzenegger, saying the following in a written statement: "I am convinced that our community is best served if Stan is alive and contributing to the guidance of our youth. He is a one-of-a-kind human asset who needs to exercise his unique ability to touch the lives of young people."

Of course, Gordon did not bring up the names of his victims, nor did he discuss what contributions any of them could have made.

Is Williams a changed man? Does it matter even if he is?

Some question whether Williams has truly expressed remorse. Rather, he holds to his innocence, even while he authors children's books encouraging alternatives to a life of violence.

However, the evidence against him is overwhelming. The evidence included his own words following the slayings, as well as physical evidence of a shotgun — and eyewitness accounts. Defense claims have included a charge that African Americans were left off the jury — despite the reality that there was an African American man on the panel that ruled unanimously as to his guilt.

Whether he has expressed remorse or whether he is a changed man really shouldn't figure into Schwarzenegger's decision. The death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent, and if it's used, it should be applied as a penalty for actions taken. Williams' remorse or his children's books don't bring his victims back to life. They don't change his actions and the duty of society to punish him appropriately.

A separate question is whether the death penalty is appropriate at all. We have long felt that the death penalty ought to be part of society's arsenal in its efforts to defend peace and order. But recent disclosures of erroneous convictions have made us wonder whether our society can be certain that only guilty people have been put to death.

That's a separate issue. Perhaps state law should change with regard to the death penalty.

But capital punishment remains the law of the land, and the overwhelming evidence is that Williams murdered innocent victims in a way that's consistent with the law calling for punishment by death. Unless Schwarzenegger vows to put an end to all death penalty cases, we see no logical reason for him to spare Williams' life.

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2005/December/02/edit/stories/01edit.htm

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
38. the power to grant clemency is also the law of the land. eom
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I don't recall anyone saying it wasn't the law of the land. n/t
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
8. Crips founder Williams deserves death sentence

Crips founder Williams deserves death sentence



Last Updated: November 28, 2005, 07:50:00 AM PST

As the Dec. 13 execution date for Stanley "Tookie" Williams approaches, opponents of the death penalty have begun organizing high-profile protests to save the life of the co-founder of the Crips street gang. Little concern has been expressed for the four people Williams was convicted of killing in 1979.
Williams, 51, continues to deny his guilt despite overwhelming evidence, including testimony from his accomplices. His defenders say he has redeemed himself by turning his life around in prison and being active in anti-gang efforts. While his recent work is admirable, it doesn't come close to balancing out the violent deaths of a 7-Eleven clerk and three members of a family that ran a motel in Los Angeles.

Williams has had his conviction reconsidered in a lengthy appeals process, and the results have never changed: He is still convicted of killing four people in two separate robberies with a shotgun that he had purchased.

There is a movement under way to create an image of Williams that is at odds with the facts. For starters, he has not been a model citizen, according to authorities who have kept records on him since the awful murders.

Williams tried to escape prior to his trial in 1981. Then he threatened the jury that convicted him. He was involved in a violent fight with another inmate at San Quentin two months after his arrival. He threatened correctional officers and twice threw chemical substances at his guards.

To this day, Williams refuses to be debriefed by prison authorities about the actual activities of his gang. He says that would make him a "snitch." Does that suggest Williams wants to make up for his gang activity? Sounds like he's still a gang member.

In a written statement, Los Angeles County District Attorney Steve Cooley says Williams' recent turnaround must be weighed against the gang that he helped create. The Crips are violent and predatory, and chapters are now active across the nation and in several other countries.

While many reasonable and sincere people oppose the death penalty, California voters have repeatedly supported its use. Tookie Williams was fairly tried and convicted, and he should get the punishment that our state's court system says he deserves — death by legal injection.

http://www.modbee.com/opinion/story/11529891p-12266430c.html
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...of J.Temperance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. You're wasting your time...the Stanley Williams Fan Club
Won't listen to reason. They've had I don't know how many threads about this pigshit...NOT ONE thread about HIS four victims.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. True, they never talk about his victims. To these
people, this defendant is the real victim.

It's sick.

Looking at the other threads, they never answer questions about the victims and they never engage in debate about the evidence in this case: http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

Remember the victims murdered by this defendant:

Albert Owens, 26
Tsai-Shen Yang, 63
Yen-Yi Yang, 63
Ye-Chin Lin, 43
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...of J.Temperance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I think we should have a thread about the VICTIMS...don't you? Post
Post your message there...but do it as a separate thread by ITSELF. Go on, those four INNOCENT people deserve it.

Jaysus, we've already had at LEAST twenty threads about poor 'ole Stanley soon to be wormfood haven't we?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. that's a good idea. it would be very sweet if you made a thread for them.
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
186. here ya go
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #186
201. So poignant and tragic. Thank you for posting this. n/t
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #186
203. They don't care about the victims.
Tookie is the real victim to these people.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. We could, but I think it's clear from some of the
comments that most of DU isn't even interested in this case. Probably a good thing that this four-time murderer is being ignored. I don't want to clutter up the topics list with more threads on this. I'll continue to post about the trial facts, the appeals process in this case, and the victims in the threads started by others.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. I am one of "these people" who believe that the DP is Barbaric


just as the War In Iraq is Barbaric and GW is Barbaric for starting it.

Who killed more innocent people, GW or Tookie Williams?

Rotting in jail for the rest of your life is far more punishment than DEATH.

How many have said,, "Oops, I won't do this crime because I will get in big trouble."

I do not wish to debate any "Liberal Democrat" on this issue.

I am simply offering my view.

I saw an interview this morning, it was a Catholic Priest at the Rome.

I was surprised that he said that Tookie could show his forgiveness by living and doing good work from his JAIL CELL.

Well, we can be confident that if Tookie is put to death all the other criminals will hear about that and vow to NEVER do anything like Tookie --- NOT.


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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I respect your anti-DP stance.
If you have moral objections to it, I can understand that.

I am taking exception to the person who started this thread, because she is repeatedly advancing theories that this defendant is innocent (one example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5519400&mesg_id=5521159) and then she runs from "debate" about his guilt even when she ASKS for debate. She has been soundly debunked in many threads and never addresses the points raised by people who do not share her view.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Thank you for understanding my Moral Objection
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 12:21 PM by goclark

I am 100% sure that the starter of this thread shares my passion for the Moral Objection to the Death Penalty.

As I see it, if it is MORALLY WRONG than that should be the end of the debate.


GW was MORALLY WRONG for getting us into this war.
We could say he did it to "make sure Amerika has more oil, to protect us from those people that are Muslims and want to hurt us or maybe we needed to find WMD."

Any of those reasons fly in the face of the MORAL VALUES that America The Beautiful should be about -- America is better than that reasoning.

Thanks for understanding my position.

It is hurtful when we can't debate our liberal thoughts in a polite tone.

WE are not the enemy, the enemy is GW and the Crooks that rule us at the present time.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I agree on almost all counts...
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 12:26 PM by hiaasenrocks
the only thing I disagree with you about is the position of the person who started this thread. While she may indeed be morally opposed to the DP, she is advancing theories that call this defendant's guilt into question, and she won't debate the trial evidence.

Other than that, we agree.

I'll stand with anyone who opposes * and his administration on their unjust war against Iraq, their relentless desire to "fix" everything with tax cuts, and their criminality and corruption. Other than these Tookie Williams threads, my most active posting was in the Fitz threads. I still feel confident that Fitz's ultimate target is Cheney and I'll be happy to talk about that in another thread. Very interesting stuff, imo.
:toast:
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. very well said, goclark. thank you! eom
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
122. If I were to think any other way it would be to think like Bully Bush


and he is not my moral yard stick, nor is the groper.

Would GW believe that the DP would solve the problems in the Urban areas -- Sure Would( since we don't vote for him anyway and he kills our babies and seniors with CUTS every day!)

He does nothing to "Keep Hope Alive,Nothing!"

He killed more innocent people in Iraq and in NO by his lack of attention and giving a "Good Job Brownie" to his croony, than all the Crips and the Bloods killed in our community since they have been in existance.

If anyone should want Tookie to get the DP it should be the African American Community and there are rallies every day to "Save Tookie."

Why is that? Because the African American community sees the INJUSTICE in America slapping them in the face everyday!

We can see straight through a bigot in a heartbeat.

If we believed that Tookie could be given the same "Justice" as Kenny Boy Lay, Jamie Foxx would not be out there with Alfre Woodard begging to give Tookie Clemency.

It also amazes me to hear White People telling US how we need to feel about an issue. We( minus Condi and Company) usually know which way the wind is blowing as soon as White People try to tell us what we should do and how we should feel.

This is the 21st Century, not 1864! We are no longer slaves and will see with our eyes WIDE OPEN, from our prospective.

GW is the enemy NOT Tookie! Tookie is tucked away in jail for the rest of his life while GW gives Tax Cuts to the Rich and bird flu to all the rest of us.

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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #122
132. Excellent post, goclark.
Your words of wisdom need to be repeated constantly.



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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. R... Well said... n/t
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wixomblues Donating Member (372 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. Facts proving guilt:
Here is the biggest indicator of his guilt. The gun that was used to murder the family, a shotgun, was owned by Tookie. Now, his defenders will tell you that it was found underneath the bed of someone else, who later testified against him, at trial. That is true. But here are the facts.

the gun was found underneath his step dad's bed. Tookie lived with his step dad. And he purchased the gun. It was found to be the murder weapon, the only possible weapon, for the motel murders. In regards to the seven eleven shooting, it was once again a match, but not the exclusion of all other weapons.

Ok, the jury. Not all white. there was one black person on the jury, and two other minority groups.

Also, the "snitch" in the county jail. He delivered notes written by Tookie to the police. You can read them here:

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

If you think he is innocent, read this document, and come back here. Also, after you read it, go to Tookie's site, and look at how he/they use doublespeak and misleading information to address the fact that he's guilty. They, on Tookie's site, are using repub tactics, doublespeak, and outright deception.


Now, I am against the death penalty, and I signed the petition. But it enrages me that people think this clown is innocent. He is guilty, he is scum, and he should rot in prison. Don't buy the hype. He's a horrible person who has not taken responsibility for his crimes.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Thanks for that post. I think your position on this case
is an honest and reasonable one. I disagree with you on the DP, but I respect your position. I just can't respect the people (like the OP in this thread) who use lies and misinformation to cast doubt on this defendant's guilt, and then run from questions and debate, even after ASKING for debate. Puzzling.
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wixomblues Donating Member (372 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
74. It took me forever to find this information.
Google searches on Tookie all go to the Pro tookie sites. There is almost no information about the facts.

Either you, or someone else, posted the link to the prosecutor's page. After reading that, no reasonable person could think he's guilty.

And rest assured, he will die this month. And I will not feel bad. I'm only anti death penalty to the extent that I would never feeling comfortable taking someones life in cold blood. However, it doesn't really bother me when a convict dies. I think the whole process is a waste of time, but it's hard for me to get passionate about the people on death row. Especially when so many of their supporters feel the need to lie, obstruct, and deceive. The worst case being the Mumia crowd. All of these websites, Tookie, Mumia, just show one side, and don't even do it honestly. It's annoying how many people jump on a bandwagon, without examining the facts behind the case. I understand that some, or most, or anti-death penalty, with a passion, but if a cause is noble, you shouldn't have to mislead people in order for them to get behind it.

Can you think of anyone else that's done that.........
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #74
250. here is some more
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BIG Sean Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. Exactly!....The earth is better off without this scum...eom
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
188. Nice read...
to bad I had to show up to this thread(read: weep for the killer ceremony) late.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
9. Our real heroes don't kill black kids
A superb article on this case:

Our real heroes don't kill black kids

Celebrities and community activists are dishonestly painting romanticized portraits of men such as Stanley Williams.

December 4, 2005 latimes.com

By Joe R. Hicks, Joe R. Hicks is a social critic, commentator and vice president of Community Advocate Inc. He formerly directed the activities of the Los Angeles Human Relations Commission and Southern Christian Lead

LURKING BEHIND the question of "Should Tookie die?" being pondered by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger are the troubling attempts by some of Stanley Tookie Williams' supporters to present the Crips' purported co-founder as a role model for inner-city youth.

The effort is molded after the campaign to turn Mumia Abu-Jamal, a convicted cop-killer, into a political prisoner. Abu-Jamal now sits on Pennsylvania's death row with his case grinding its way through various levels of appeals. Two decades ago, Abu-Jamal was involved in a confrontation that resulted in the point-blank execution of Philadelphia Police Officer Daniel Faulkner. With eyewitnesses and the murder weapon on hand (Abu-Jamal's own gun), the prosecutor called it "the strongest homicide case I ever tried." A jury of two blacks and 10 whites took just six hours to render a guilty verdict.

The mists of political mythology (the bullet that killed the officer was a different caliber than Abu-Jamal's gun; someone else shot Faulkner; the police framed Abu-Jamal, etc.) now obscure a case that over the years has become a prime cause for the nation's leftist activists, including, of course, the Hollywood Left.

The list of celebrities advocating on behalf of Abu-Jamal includes Maya Angelou, Martin Sheen, Jesse Jackson, Spike Lee, Paul Newman, Tim Robbins and Oliver Stone. Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been contributed to the legal defense of Abu-Jamal — whom novelist Alice Walker bizarrely likened to Nelson Mandela.

Mythology and misguided celebrities also surround Williams, who was convicted and sentenced to death for the killing in February 1979 of Albert Owens, a clerk at a 7-Eleven store in Whittier, and for the murder one month later of Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, Yen-I Yang and Yu-Chin Yang Lin at their family-run motel in Los Angeles.

The facts are as clear as Williams' crimes were senseless and gory. The sawed-off shotgun used in the murders belonged to Williams. Others involved in the crimes fingered him as the shooter. Several witnesses testified that he bragged about the killings in gruesome detail. The jury that convicted Williams was racially mixed, and nothing indicates that his defense team was less than excellent.

Williams' appeals have been denied by the California Supreme Court, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (the most liberal appeals court in the nation) and the U.S. Supreme Court. Last week, the state Supreme Court heard a last-ditch appeal from Williams' attorneys and again rejected it.

The strongest case for clemency is made by Williams' activities in recent years while on death row. His supporters say that no matter what he may have done in earlier years, his later actions indicate that he has redeemed himself. This view was expressed in a slanted made-for-television movie "Redemption," in which Jamie Foxx portrayed Williams as an innocent man.

This is an argument that his own defense team wisely avoids making in its clemency petition to the governor — choosing to base its arguments not on evidence so many have already found conclusive, but on Williams being a changed man.

I applaud Williams' efforts, while incarcerated, to steer youngsters from the ruthless gang life. But the people who dishonestly paint folk hero portraits of men such as Abu-Jamal and Williams (and even of 50 Cent, the thug and drug dealer-turned-rapper whose chief claim to fame is surviving being shot nine times by a rival) would do far more good by hitting young people with another message: that personal responsibility and accountability must be a part of civilized society.

In 2003, when L.A. experienced a 23% drop in homicides, 39% of the city's 505 murder victims were black and 36% of the homicide suspects were black, though only 11% of the city's population is black. For five straight years, about 40% of L.A.'s homicide victims have been black. If the celebrities and community activists supporting Williams began lifting up real community heroes — such as teachers, police officers, members of the clergy, hardworking parents or veterans of the Iraq war — maybe we could begin to change the dynamics of neighborhoods suffering from the predatory effects of Tookie wannabes.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-op-tookie4dec04,0,2958733.story?coll=la-sunday-commentary

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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
11. Regarding the pro-Tookie argument: "He was nominated for a Nobel Prize!"..

Who doesn't have a Nobel Prize nomination?


By Eugene Volokh, Eugene Volokh is a professor of law at UCLA Law School.

MANY advocates of clemency for Stanley Tookie Williams note that he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize and the Nobel Prize in literature for his anti-gang work, which includes writing children's books. How could a convicted murderer and co-founder of the Crips be nominated for such prizes?

According to Nobel Prize nominating rules, any "professor of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology" and any judge or national legislator in any country, among others, can nominate anyone for a Nobel Peace Prize. Past nominees include Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Benito Mussolini and Fidel Castro. Any "professor of literature of linguistics," among others, can nominate anyone for a Nobel Prize in literature.

Naturally, many nominees have real merit. But being nominated by one or a few of the hundreds of thousands of eligible nominators is little evidence of such merit. This is especially so when the nominee is a source of controversy, and when it may seem that nominating him may prevent his execution.

It would surely be helpful to readers if news stories mentioning Williams' nominations — or, for that matter, any Nobel peace or literature prize nominations — stressed how unselective the nomination process is.

We're used to prize nominations signifying relatively broad acclaim, as for an Oscar. When a nomination means nothing other than a recommendation from a professor (or even a few professors and a legislator), that should to be made clear.

Besides, a convicted murderer's nominations for Nobel prizes shed little light on the complex question of whether he is sincerely contrite, whether he has done good deeds and whether his life should be spared.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-op-tookienobel4dec04,0,5637705.story?coll=la-sunday-commentary
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
191. Thank you for pointing this out...
I had remembered reading that just about anyone (including dear ol' Adolf) can and has been nominated (but, obviously not awarded) the Nobel Peace Prize, just couldnt remember where I had seen it.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #191
198. And Arafat as well. Good company, huh? n/t
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #198
207. Funny you should mention Arafat...
some on the rather extreme actually mourned his passing.

(I even recall seeing a makeshift memorial setup by the Green party on the local news!).
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
12. People are arguing that he was found guilty b/c of race....
Will you explain how racism accounts for the following in this case:

1. One expended twelve-gauge shotgun shell was recovered by investigators during the crime scene investigation at the Brookhaven Motel.

2. A twelve-gauge High Standard slide-action shotgun bearing serial number 3194397, was traced to Williams. In addition, a federal “Firearms Transaction Record” records Williams’ purchase of the shotgun, on February 25, 1974. Williams signed the transaction record and used his California driver’s license for identification purposes when he purchased the shotgun.

3. A firearms expert testified that the expended twelve-gauge shotgun shell that was recovered by investigators at the Brookhaven Motel, was fired from Williams’ shotgun, to the exclusion of all other firearms.

4. Two expended twelve-gauge shotgun shells were recovered by investigators during the crime scene investigation at the 7-Eleven. Although these two shells lacked sufficient identifying characteristics to be conclusively matched to Williams’ shotgun, the firearms expert testified that they were consistent with having been fired from that weapon. Moreover, the firearms expert did not find any dissimilarity that would exclude trial exhibits 9C and 9D from having been fired from Williams’ shotgun.

5. A jury of nine caucasians, one black, one Filipino, and one Latino found Williams guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in four homicides, and unanimously voted for the death penalty. Appeals in numerous courts before many judges over a quarter of a century have all concurred with the original jury's findings.

Let's just start with those. I eagerly await your answers. Thanks in advance.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
15. I'm totally against the DP, so the specifics of this case
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 11:17 AM by hlthe2b
don't really enter in. But, one does have to wonder why we fight so hard for some genuinely reformed killers on death row and less so for others (Karla Faye Tucker comes to mind). I can't sign the moratorium petition because it is for CA residents. But, I'm with you.

A moratorium on the DP is the only answer. I doubt Schwartzenegger has the honor and guts to do so, but to look at his political motivations--IMO it would be the ONLY way to salvage his dying political career. I dare say DEMS would give him a second look if he did so (and moved to shift leftward on policy). The hard RW is never going to embrace him anyway.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. good points, hlthe2b. i have to hope the gov will have the guts.
did you get a chance to hear the radio show?

"The hard RW is never going to embrace him anyway." excellent point!

we fight hard every time. sadly, it is impossible to keep up with opposing the DP while fighting for the rights of individuals.

it's only more visible to some DUers this time, because it is happening on DU. it has other times, too. but i didn't know how to do this those times.

thank you

peace
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
52. no, didn't hear the radio show....
I seriously don't believe Schwarzenegger is dumb. Whether he can see the forest for the trees, may be another matter. You'd think his proximity to Kennedy philosophy would have rubbed off on him just a little-subliminally.

Good luck, Californians. As so often in the past, you can be the start of a national trend (and a good one with a DP moratorium)
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
174. To tell you how much I oppose the DP, I don't

believe that Saddam should get the DP, nor should the NeoCons that started this trumped up War.

It is Barbaric!

You are right, "A moratorium on the DP is the only answer."

And when the moratorium is over, perhaps we will have healed as a nation enough to say, "NO MORE"

PS/ Arnold could let Tookie off 25 times and this Liberal Democrat would NEVER vote for the groper.

PEACE
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
18. Information for this debate:
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 11:42 AM by hiaasenrocks
For all of those considering joining in the effort to save "Tookie" Williams, I urge you to read the following document (in .pdf format) here:

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

The link above contains all of the trial information, including photographs of items in evidence at the trial and subsequent appeals.

This is important information to consider, and addresses most of the myths of the Save Tookie movement. This is the information (actual trial evidence) that the OP refuses to debate. Very telling.

Consider the evidence. Make up your own mind. Remember the victims:

Albert Owens, 26
Tsai-Shen Yang, 63
Yen-Yi Yang, 63
Ye-Chin Lin, 43
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
26. Against the death penalty, and won't debate it. n/t
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. thank you, Paradise. i don't really see it as debatable either. but
there has not been one thread advocating for clemency that wasn't turned into a chance for the blood-vengeance gang to do a little hootin and howlin for blood.

so, now they have a thread actually welcoming their rants, and look how nasty they are to me for giving it to them.

sheesh.

oh well.

thank you for checking in on your very strong stand against state killing.

please keep on!


peace and solidarity!
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Please try to be serious about this case.
No one is "hootin and howlin" for blood, unless you call posting the trial facts and the numerous appeals process "hootin and howlin."

As I've made clear in any number of posts over the last several days, your arguments are based totally on emotion and hysteria. You create posts that promote theories that this defendant is innocent, and you won't debate the trial facts. Why is that?

And now you're saying we're being nasty to you? Please, drop the persecution fantasy.
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #45
255. kind of thought that would happen,
and that's why my stance was not up for debate
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
36. Capital punishment world-wide...
Death Penalty Outlawed

Andorra (1990)
Angola (1992)
Armenia (2003)
Australia (1984)
Austria (1950)
Azerbaijan (1998)
Belgium (1996)
Bermuda (1999)
Bhutan (2004)
Bosnia-Herzegovina (1997)
Bulgaria (1998)
Cambodia (1989)
Canada (1976)
Cape Verde (1981)
Colombia (1910)
Costa Rica (1877)
Côte d'Ivoire (2000)
Croatia (1990)
Cyprus (1983)
Czech Republic (1990)
Denmark (1933)
Djibouti (1995)
Dominican Republic (1966)
East Timor (1999)
Ecuador (1906)
Estonia (1998)
Finland (1949)
France (1981)
Georgia (1997)
Germany (1987)
Greece (1993)
Guinea-Bissau (1993)
Haiti (1987)
Honduras (1956)
Hungary (1990)
Iceland (1928)
Ireland (1990)
Italy (1947)
Kiribati (1979)
Liechtenstein (1987)
Lithuania (1998)
Luxembourg (1979)
Macedonia (1991)
Malta (1971)
Marshall Islands (1986)
Mauritius (1995)
Mexico (2005)
Micronesia (1986)
Moldova (1995)
Monaco (1962)
Mozambique (1990)
Namibia (1990)
Nepal (1990)
Netherlands (1870)
New Zealand (1961)
Nicaragua (1979)
Niue (n.a.)
Norway (1905)
Palau (n.a.)
Panama (1903)
Paraguay (1992)
Poland (1997)
Portugal (1867)
Romania (1989)
Samoa (2004)
San Marino (1848)
São Tomé and Príncipe (1990)
Senegal (2004)
Serbia and Montenegro (2002)
Seychelles (1993)
Slovak Republic (1990)
Slovenia (1989)
Solomon Islands (1966)
South Africa (1995)
Spain (1978)
Sweden (1921)
Switzerland (1942)
Turkey (2002)
Turkmenistan (1999)
Tuvalu (1978)
Ukraine (1999)
United Kingdom (1973)
Uruguay (1907)
Vanuatu (1980)
Vatican City (1969)
Venezuela (1863)


Death Penalty Outlawed for Ordinary Crimes
Albania (2000)
Argentina (1984)
Bolivia (1997)
Brazil (1979)
Chile (2001)
Cook Islands (n.a.)
El Salvador (1983)
Fiji (1979)
Israel (1954)
Latvia (1999)
Peru (1979)


De Facto Ban on Death Penalty

Algeria (1993)
Benin (1987)
Brunei Darussalam (1957)
Burkina Faso (1988)
Central African Republic (1981)
Congo (Republic) (1982)
Gambia (1981)
Grenada (1978)
Kenya (n.a.)
Madagascar (1958)
Maldives (1952)
Mali (1980)
Mauritania (1987)
Morocco (1993)
Myanmar (1993)
Nauru (1968)
Niger (1976)
Papua New Guinea (1950)
Russia (1999)
Sri Lanka (1976)
Suriname (1982)
Togo (n.a.)
Tonga (1982)
Tunisia (1990)


Death Penalty Permitted

Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe



Blue: Abolished for all crimes

Green: Abolished for crimes not committed in exceptional circumstances (such as crimes committed in time of war)

Orange: Abolished in practice

Red: Legal form of punishment


http://www.answers.com/topic/capital-punishment
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. thank you so much for providing that info, Peter Frank!. we have so much
work to do!

peace and solidarity!
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
42. I don't hear anyone saying they don't care about the victims
Execution of Stanley Tookie Williams will not bring them back. It will not prevent any future murders. Keeping him alive might, because of the work he is doing.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Some of the Save Tookie Groupies around here have been
posting about this case for the better part of a week or so, at least. There isn't one post about the victims.

The argument that he should be spared so that others will benefit from his work assumes that he is the only one capable of achieving that goal. There is no reason to believe that others can't continue doing anti-gang work after justice is served on December 13th. In fact, when justice is served on December 13th, a clear message will be sent: If you murder four people and a jury (and numerous appeals) confirm your guilt and sentence you to death, you will pay a price for your crimes. Let the potential gang-bangers see that message.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. good point, emlev. thank you! eom
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
43. Against DP but Tookie deserves no special consideration
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 12:41 PM by slackmaster
I oppose the DP because people by nature aren't smart or objective enough to employ it with zero possibility of executing an innocent person.

Tookie Williams is racist scumbag, a violent predator, and a con artist. As an Agnostic I've never been impressed by jailhouse religious conversions, and writing a few childrens' books with anti-violence messages does not excuse the terror that Mr. Williams' creation, the Crips gang, has imposed on millions of people in Southern California for decades.

End capital punishment for all, not just Tookie Williams. He makes a piss poor poster person for an otherwise worthy cause.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
57. "End capital punishment for all..." yes. thank you. eom
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. What do you think about that poster's assessment of
Tookie Williams, the person?
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
61. Good points
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 01:12 PM by indie_voter
Personally, I am pro death penalty for the most heinous crimes (killing children, serial killers like Bundy, and a crime like Tookie's).

However, I respect the anti-death penalty position.

I just don't understand the posts which paint Tookie as a victim.

He has committed horrible crimes which he won't even admit to let alone show remorse for, he refuses to turn against the crips by offering names and organizational information and there is evidence he still has a strong voice in the gang.

He is a terrible person who (mho) has conned many good people.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Well said. n/t
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. I find it DISGUSTING
That people are DEFENDING a MURDERER...An ANIMAL!

What about his VICTIMS???

Tookie is EXCATLY the reason why we have the DEATH PENALTY!

I am really shocked... yeah, Tookie is a GREAT person now... Uh huh. :eyes:
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. But..but...he wrote BOOKS
for children even.

I can't imagine the horror his poor victims felt as they knew they were going to die. What a mess.

As for Tookie, if he is so reformed, why hasn't he turned against the Crips? Why hasn't he offered important information on the inner workings of the gang.

He could save many more children by helping the police dismantle gangs like the crips (they could use information they learned from him in other cases) than with a couple books.

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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. There is also information
That I read...here on DU that he continued running the Crips up until 10 years ago from his jail cell!

I cannot believe that people are actually DEFENDING this animal!

Not only did he have FOUR VICTIMS of a VIOLENT MURDER by his OWN HANDS...what about the COUNTLESS acts of violence commited by HIS GANG that HE STARTED?

Amazing....simply amazing....

We are better off with out this ANIMAL!!
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. He has sold a grand total of 332 books.
According to Book Scan.

This is all just part of the PR stunt.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. EXACTLY!
I could give two shits if this person wrote a fucking book or the BIBLE!

That still does not shake the fact that he viciously killed 4 people and started a violent gang!

Fuck his books!
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #63
72. Claims that the death P. is wrong itself, is my claim. ESPECIALLY years..
after the victims' family learned of their loved one's suffering and death. We progressives work for justice, while the tragedy of prison executions of the innocent, and for the barbarism of state sponsored killing of the guilty, and the needs of victim's survivors, and the deterent to crime of such a penalty, defines our dilemma. It's very tough to advocate peace and oppose state sponsored killing in our name abroad, and support the death penalty. It seems inconsistant and unnecessary to kill a murderer who has been convicted and imprisoned, when the execution is years after the crime.
For those of us who have lost family members to a murderer, the execution, dated years later, takes on a different meaning than that which we thought at the time of trial, even when some of us publicly proclaim advocacy for the execution.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. I can respect that...
Really I can..

What is getting me is the " Tookie is a GOD " propaganda that is being spread! If you want to stop state sponsered executions, Tookie is far from a poster child to do so.

His supporters are asking for clemency based on his innocence, to me that is just sick!
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
67. Another way: "Restorative Justice"
Google this term for lots of information. Google "Restorative Justice" and "violent crime" for specific info about how restorative justice can be applied in cases of violent crime.

I suspect I share with everyone posting on this thread the belief that violent crime is abhorrent and that it must be stopped. Waging war doesn't stop terrorism. Executing convicted felons doesn't stop crime. If it did, it would have worked already. New solutions are needed.

As the bumpersticker says, "We're creating enemies faster than we can kill them."
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Re: "executions don't stop violent crime"
Neither does jail. Should we abolish jail, too?

What's your point?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #67
241. that is an exciting possibility, emlev! thank you for introducing me to
it!
must learn more about that.


peace!
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
70. And you don't think this person shoud DIE???
Read this:

Williams was convicted of murdering four innocent bystanders with a sawed-off shotgun in 1979. There was nothing peaceful or compassionate about the way Alvin Owen, Thsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang and Yee Chen Lin died. Owen was a white teen-age clerk at a 7-11 convenience store, shot twice in the back of the head -- execution-style -- as he lay unarmed on the floor during a hold-up. A witness testified that Williams mocked the gurgling sounds Owen made as he lay dying. "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him," the witness quoted Williams.

The Yangs were Taiwanese immigrants who, along with their daughter Yee Chen Lin, were gunned down during a motel robbery two weeks after Owen died. Half of the daughter's face was blown off by the shotgun blasts, former L.A. County Deputy District Attorney Robert Martin told me in an interview this week. Williams called them "Buddhaheads," Martin recounted, and robbed them of petty cash.

Williams has yet to apologize to the victims' families. When the trial ended, Martin told me, Williams muttered to the prosecution team, "I'll get every one of you m-----f-----s."

Spoken like a Nobel laureate. :eyes:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin112200.asp

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
83. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. Did you also post this on...
... the 'other' site? So nice of you to come to DU and share your blood lust.

Have you had the guts to listen to the interview?
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. This is the part where Sapphire Blue
will now discuss, for the benefit of us all, the specifics of the trial evidence.

Drumroll, please....

(This is obviously :sarcasm: because she is totally incapable of discussing this case without using misinformation, baseless smears and hysterical rants.)
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freestyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
87. I'm against it period. It degrades society and kills innocent people.
I just can't see how killing people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong does anything but make us a nation of murderers. Sometimes families have closure after an execution and sometimes they don't. It does not serve as a deterrent. We do not live in a perfect world, so it is highly doubtful that everyone that has been executed, or everyone that is on death row, is even guilty.

I am a Marylander. Yesterday, we executed someone. The man had committed a heinous crime, murdering someone in front of their grandchildren. Now we have murdered him. Maryland is not a better place a result of this.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
98. Against DP, but also against special exemption for Williams
I'm against the death penalty, but I'm also against making a special case of Williams, so unless the penalty is prohibited for all in California I have nothing to oppose.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
100. I support the execution of the mass murdering con man known as Tookie.
Thank you for providing the means for me to contact Arnold and tell him so.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
105. Only one of the kids in my classes today knew who Tookie was.
I am on the substitute teacher list for our local high school, and am called about 2 or 3 times a week. Today I was asked to come in. I decided to take about three minutes at the beginning of each period and spend it on current events - Tookie. I asked each class if any of them know who Stanley "Tookie" Williams was. When no one knew, I would try giving some hints so that if somebody knew but just wasn't remembering I would jog their memory.

During the entire day, only one girl knew. And she knew because she stays up on current events, NOT because of any anti-gang programs, or because of his books.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. I guess none of your students
were among those who purchased the 332 copies of Tookie's books that have been sold.

:nopity:
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Ekirh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. Can you help me?
I've actually been trying to find a link to the number his books that been sold. Where did you find that? It's probably in this thread and I just keep on skimming over it.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. Sure.
It's referenced in this article: http://www.dogonvillage.com/african_american_news/Articles/00000373.html

And if you have access to BookScan, you can also research it there.
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Ekirh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. One Thing Really Struck me reading that
"No one is reading his books, least of all his two sons, one of whom is serving time in San Quentin. The other was just arrested on charges of aggravated rape."


Seems like he couldn't even lead his own children on the right path . . dont' know how you can really have faith in him sending others on the right path. Then again . . he isn't the best role model to draw from. Not to mention I don't particular know how much fathering you can do while in prison. . . but still that excerpt just struck me. Made me a little sad actually.

Again we are on opposite side of the D.P. but I think we both can be in agreement this is not an innocoent or a completely reformed man.

I'll give him credit for writing the books may he did have good intentions in them. Not his fault they didn't sell well. However, I think some are over-exagerating the impact he has had. Not to mention the fact he won't give details or information on the gang he formed. . . once again is a huge strike against him.

I can't help wonder about those on death role whose guilt is more questionable must feel knowing such attention will probably never be given to them.

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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #107
120. Not even one book for each of his victims
No doubt that the crips have killed far more than 332 people.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #107
224. Is that really how many have been sold?!
:wow:

Mein Kampf sells better
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #105
206. Can you elaborate where you were when you had this discussion?
State, city, racial demographics of the school?
Urban/suburban community?

I just don't want your story dismissed as anecdotal.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
106. MSNBC poll, 67% No Clemency, 33% For clemency, 18,162 responses
As of 4:23 CST
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Clara T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #106
148. We are a brutal people
The majority of Americans favor the death penalty.

I am happy to be in the minority. Polls can also mean mob rules. I wouldn't even support the death penalty for Warren Anderson or Dick Cheney who have killed far more than Mr. Williams. Would you?
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #148
153. He is a brutal person.
And Dick Cheney is one person I wouldn't mind supporting the DP for.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
151. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #151
152. Hmmm....
Very interesting!

Maybe so.

I'm going to do some sleuthing.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #151
192. Good point. There simply can't be two people
who are that misinformed.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #151
204. This type of accusation is against DU rules.
Is it that difficult for you to believe more than one person can feel so passionately about the same thing?

Your remark was really out of line.
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
157. AGAINST
See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5516917 for a complete essay on my views regarding Christian hypocrisy and the death penalty.

I am against the death penalty.

Especially in a case like this, where it seems that the criminal will actually effect positive change if granted clemency. Nevermind the fact that the man ought to have a retrial.

(snip)

What bothers me is the total disconnect between the words of Jesus Christ and the political beliefs of his purported followers. Her attitude or 'fry em all and let God sort em out' strikes me as not only conventionally unfeeling and shallow, but also as offensively unChristian, even to me, someone who is largely anti-Christianity.

Was not Jesus's message, essentially and transformatively, about forgiveness? Was not Jesus willing to die himself so that others could be brought to the right path, be redeemed? Are we not exhorted by both Bible and pulpit to take up our cross and follow Jesus, to ask 'What Would Jesus Do?' and to be ever-ready to turn the other cheek, err on the side of forgiveness, and pray for the repentance and conversion of others, people just like Tookie Williams?

...

(snip)
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #157
159. StellaBlue, thank you so much for the link to your powerful essay!
It is, indeed, an incredibly powerful statement.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #157
162. *** KICK *** for StellaBlue's outstanding post (#157)!!!
:kick: :kick: :kick:
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #162
211. thanks!
:hi:
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #157
236. this is a deeply moving and enlightening article, StellaBlue! thank you
so very much for posting this!

i love this:
"err on the side of forgiveness"

thank you

peace

peace and solidarity!
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #157
249. read this site
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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
158. Firmly against letting the state have the power to kill.
Way too many innocents ahve been killed, and no other industrialized country has the death penalty. It's disgusting. Better to just lock them up for life than allow state-sanctioned murder.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
160. from the NAACP
What Stanley Tookie Williams Will Do With the Rest of His Life
If granted clemency, Williams will work with the NAACP on programs to reach at-risk youths
December 6, 2005

http://www.naacp.org/news/2005/2005-12-06.html

NAACP President and CEO Bruce S. Gordon visited Williams at the San Quentin Prison for more than two hours. Gordon said, “Stan gives us a unique opportunity to help save lives by turning around some of these young people who are inclined to join a street gang. He can speak with credibility unmatched by most youth workers and counselors. He has agreed to work with the NAACP to create and implement a violence prevention curriculum for at-risk youths throughout America .”

The NAACP is urging Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to grant clemency for Williams who is scheduled to die by lethal injection on December 13, 2005 .

-snip-

In conclusion, Williams states, “I know that to whom much is given, much is expected. If Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger grants me clemency, I will accept it as an obligation to society to spend the rest of my life working to reverse the cycle of youth violence. It is my desire to help save society from producing more victims. Here and now, I bear witness that God’s bequest of redemption has replenished me with a mission and revealed that the impossible is possible.”

The NAACP has called for a moratorium on executions until questions about the reliability and fairness of capital punishment have been answered and it is certain that the process does not discriminate. There are documented cases that show the death penalty has been applied differently depending on the race of the offender and the victim.

-snip-

***
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
163. Is this a discussion of the death penalty, or of TW's conviction?
They are not the exact same issue.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #163
166. I thought it was meant as a discussion ot the interview, which covered...
... both; did you listen to it?
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
164. I am against the death penalty. As for the case of Tookie Williams he
can do so much more to prevent more kids from following his footsteps...

http://www.tookie.com/booktemp.html

I wrote Schwarzenegger...


In general, unless the "criminal" has a mental condition, the criminal should be allowed to contribute to society from prison.
A mentally unstable criminal, should be institutionalized and given the help he needs. They probably have needed help years or decades ago until they committed the crime.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #164
175. Well said, rumpel!
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 10:55 PM by FrustratedDemInNC
"They probably have needed help years or decades ago until they committed the crime."

This issue is overlooked in today's society - race and poverty are key factors in crime recently exposed to the masses by Hurricane Katrina. If we invested in prevention programs instead of illegal wars, crime and poverty could be reduced dramatically.

Legalized murder is a barbaric practice - violence begets violence. It needs to repeated and repeated and repeated.
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jim3775 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
172. There is a big PR effort going on here
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 10:52 PM by jim3775
I am against the DP and I don't think Mr. Williams should be executed, but the more I read about this case the less of an opinion I have for Mr. Williams.

Mr. Williams has hired a publicist; Barbara Cottman Becnel who was also the "editor" of his book. I suspect that there is a major PR effort going on here.

At first glance it seems like a good story; "he is helping people from prison", "he is writing books for children", "he was wrongfully convicted by an all white jury", "he was nominated for a Nobel prize" etc. but the truth is much different than what nofurylike has been writing in her posts.

There is strong evidence to convict him, he was convicted by a racially mixed jury, he refuses to admit to his crimes, anybody can be nominated for a Nobel prize, he never helped the police fight the monster he created and his books haven't really helped anybody.

If he cooperated with the police and exposed his gang connections he would have saved more lives than his book ever could.

Nofurylike's constant disinformation does all DUers a disservice. We need accurate facts not PR flacking if we are to engage in a honest debate (something Mr. Williams supporters don't seem to want).

I see no reason why Mr. Williams should get any special consideration from the government.

This post over at Americablog got me thinking about what I wrote above: Ford caught posting propaganda on AMERICAblog
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #172
179. Thank you!
What we have going on here is not a friendly debate about the death penalty. What we REALLY have is a bunch pro-Tookie propaganda.

I posted a thread about his VICTIMS, I asked for a moment of silence, I got a whole seven responses.

C'mon people... Can you not get past the DP issue for one moment to try and understand what a MONSTER this person is?

I am not 100% in favor of the DP, in fact I believe the system needs much improvement, but to sit here and have a LOVE fest for a convicted killer who happened to write a few books and find "God" is disgusting!

His victims didn't get the chance to plead for life.....

Think about that....
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #172
183. BRAVO!
There is strong evidence to convict him, he was convicted by a racially mixed jury, he refuses to admit to his crimes, anybody can be nominated for a Nobel prize, he never helped the police fight the monster he created and his books haven't really helped anybody.

If he cooperated with the police and exposed his gang connections he would have saved more lives than his book ever could.


LOL!! You've summed up this interminably long thread well.


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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #172
185. Its not that big of a suprise to me that...
people who actively support, rally, and devote their time and money to serial murderers and gang leaders tend to not have a full grasp on many things, not the least of which is "honest debate".
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #172
189. Great post! n/t
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
177. I'm against it.
Rather have a thousand guilty men, no a MILLION guilty men GO FREE than kill an innocent man.

I'm sure not in favor of killing thousands of innocent persons like it is now in the hopes of getting that one guilty one!
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #177
235. great statement, TankLV! thank you, and for words to put to it! eom
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
180. Tookie deserves whats coming to him...
and I hate being associated with people who care more about convicted murderers than their victims.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #180
215. What if?
Don't you think it's possible to be opposed to the DP without diminishing the victim's tragedy? Murder is always wrong and that includes legalized execution. Nobody is minimizing the victims or their families in this crime.

When does it ever end? The cycle continues as we see on a daily basis. Too many innocent people have been executed, NC has a history of racial lynchings and civil rights violations. I hope your hatred extends toward those issues, as well.

Violence begets violence. Peace is possible. Redemption is possible.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #215
218. I can understand (though disagree) with people who object to the DP
on purely legal and moral grounds. My beef is with those who have put so much time and effort into trying to potray this man as a saint or something.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #218
219. Fair enough!
I appreciate your thoughtful reply.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #219
225. If I may continue...
I do reckongize that the justice system in this country/state has legal and judicial problems, and is in need of reform.

Hell, I would even be willing to have a (temporary) stay on death cases until the system gets fixed up. Everyone who supports the DP should reckongize the need to make damn sure the system works.

In the mean time, Id say that its best to look at these things on a case by case basis, and I believe that this case is an example of the system working well.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #225
230. I respect & appreciate your opinion.
It's important we discuss these things even if we don't agree on every issue. I just read an article today that 60+% of the folks in NC agree with a temporary stay - great news for the state.


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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
193. I encourage everyone who is interested in this case to
do their own research. Seek answers to the questions you may have about this case. That's the fair way to do it.

As part of the evidence, I would suggest that you take into account the fact that the Save Tookie side has relied on misinformation and deliberate obfuscation of the facts. In addition, they refuse to discuss the facts of the trial and the numerous appeals this defendant received. They have been called out on this misinformation campaign probably hundreds of times at this point, and they steadfastly refuse to address these posts. It's all here on this website for everyone to see.

Considering the above, it has to make you wonder how strong a case there is for this defendant. If it were clear cut, if there were any serious doubts to be had about this case, they wouldn't need to engage in the spinning and lying.

Just something to consider.

(And I know this post only applies to people on the fence. If you are anti-DP on moral grounds, I can respect that. But nofurylike and SapphireBlue are advancing theories that call this defendant's guilt into question -- with exactly no verifiable evidence for their cause.)

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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #193
205. tisk tisk tisk
can't you see who the real victim is here? I mean, can you blame a guy for starting a violent gang, maybe he just wanted to start a children's book reading club and things just kinda got out of hand. :sarcasm:
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #205
209. Yeah. You know, I have been wondering...
Since I am not in favor of saving a four-time murderer, I guess that makes me a bad person. Worse than Tookie, I'm sure.

Remember the victims!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5532042
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
200. IMPORTANT! Clemency bid to include claims of errors in trial
Clemency bid to include claims of errors in trial

BY JOHN SIMERMAN
Knight Ridder Newspapers
Dec. 06, 2005

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/13339771.htm

WALNUT CREEK, Calif. - What the jury saw was a musclebound hulk in a 4X jacket. What they heard about was barbaric: two cold-blooded robbery murders within 12 days, four dead and a suspect who was said to laugh hysterically as he mimicked the gurgling last breaths of one victim.

Who they heard it from: an alleged accomplice granted immunity, a jailhouse informant, an acquaintance with a checkered criminal past, a friend who later claimed police beat him into testifying.

A police expert tied a shell casing from one crime scene to a slide-action 12-gauge shotgun owned by Stanley "Tookie" Williams, but there were no fingerprints, no pictures, no bystanders to finger him. And no DNA that could bolster or silence his claim of innocence.

A quarter-century later, the trial that landed the Crips gang co-founder on death row draws renewed focus as his Dec. 13 execution date nears. While his backers highlight his tale of atonement and anti-gang outreach from prison, debate over his 1981 prosecution is bound to play out in the Capitol on Thursday as Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger entertains his case for clemency.

-snip-

***
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #200
202. Nothing new. All of that has been addressed.
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 11:55 PM by hiaasenrocks
"Claims" of errors. Sigh.

Listed below are the facts of the judicial history of this case, and the appellate reviews. Various courts and numerous judges have said over and over, for about 25 years, that the trial was fair and no exculpatory evidence was withheld or overlooked.

Please stick to the facts and stop this misinformation campaign.

PROCEDURAL HISTORY AND APPELLATE REVIEW
To date, Stanley Williams’ case has received extensive legal scrutiny in both state and federal court. Since his conviction in 1981, Williams has pursued multiple appeals and habeas corpus petitions. In each and every instance, in both state and federal court, his conviction has been affirmed as appropriate and just.

• On April 18, 1980, the trial court granted Williams’ motion to substitute his hand-picked attorney, Joseph Ingber, as attorney of record in place of Gerald Lenoir.
• On January 21, 1981, the jury trial commenced and on March 13, 1981, the jury returned guilty verdicts of four counts of first degree murder and two counts of robbery. The jury also found the special circumstance allegations of robbery-murder and multiple murder to be true. Lastly, the jury found true the special allegations that defendant Williams personally used a shotgun and that a principal was armed with a firearm.
• On March 17, 1981, both parties having rested without presenting evidence at the penalty phase, argument was presented on behalf of the People and defendant Williams as to whether the penalty should be death or life imprisonment without possibility of parole. Following arguments and instructions of law by the Court on this issue, the jury, on March 18, 1981, returned a verdict of death as to each of the charged first-degree murders.
• On April 15, 1981, defendant Williams’ motions for a new trial and for modification of the verdict and findings imposing the death penalty were heard by the Court and denied. The trial court then sentenced Williams to death on counts 1, 2, 3 and 7.
• On April 11, 1988, on automatic appeal to the California Supreme Court, in the cases of People v. Stanley Williams, Crim. No. 21977, and In re Stanley Williams, Crim. No. 23806, consolidated under Case No. S004365, and published at (1988) 44 Cal.3d 1127, the imposition of the death penalty was affirmed and defendant Williams’ first habeas petition was denied following an evidentiary hearing.
• On January 18, 1989, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ second state habeas petition in Case No. S008526.
• On that same date, January 18, 1988, defendant Williams filed his first federal habeas petition in the United States District Court in Case No. CV89-00327SVW. The district court held that petition in abeyance while defendant Williams returned to the California Supreme Court with his unexhausted claims.
• On April 11, 1994, following another evidentiary hearing, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ third state habeas petition in Case No. S011868, published at (1994) 7 Cal.4th 572.
• On June 21, 1995, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ fourth state habeas petition in Case No. S039285.
• On December 21, 1988, defendant Williams returned to federal court and, following an evidentiary hearing, the United States District Court denied defendant Williams’ amended habeas petition in Case No. CV89-00327-SVW, and published its order at (1998) 41 F.Supp.2d 1043.
• On December 17, 1999, defendant Williams’ subsequent Rule 60(b) motion to reopen the judgment was denied, and the order was published at (1999) 1999 WL 1320903.
• On September 10, 2002, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit denied defendant Williams’ direct appeal and Rule 6 (b) motion in Case Nos. 99-99018 and 00-99001, published at (2002)306 F.3d 665.
• On September 9, 2004, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals amended the opinion and denied defendant Williams’ petition for rehearing and suggestion for rehearing en banc, published at (2004) 384 F.3d 567.
• On February 2, 2005, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals denied defendant Williams’ subsequent petition for rehearing and suggestion for rehearing en banc, published at (2005) 396 F.3d 1059.
• Finally, on October 11, 2005, the United States Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ petition for writ of certiorari in Case No. 04-10500. As this historical accounting proves, Williams has benefited from a detailed and exhaustive review of all of his legal claims and each court has affirmed the guilty verdicts and affirmed the death sentence. In doing so, our courts, both state and federal, have given appropriate and serious consideration to Williams, consideration which Williams so violently denied each of his victims.

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #202
210. obviously you did not read it.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #210
216. Stop making crap up, PLEASE.
I know that's your M.O. but this is getting old.

I read it. There is nothing in there that hasn't been reviewed by a judge or an appellate court, nothing new that hasn't been addressed over the last quarter of a century of appeals. Like this defendant's RECENT claim that he was involuntarily drugged while in jail. Uh huh.

You've been duped and you have no factual basis for your position on this case. Your hundreds of shallow posts prove that.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #200
217. And here we are, a quarter century later and the 'jury'...
... (read: lynch mob) still sees what they did then.

Yes, I was aware of this 'witness' who was beaten into 'testifying' as he did... later recanting the 'testimony' as false, and also apologizing to Mr. Williams. In Stan Tookie Williams' case... a quarter century ago... racist cops beating/torturing the 'witness' to force him to 'testify' against Mr. Williams.

A quarter century later...

bush's/Rumsfeld's military beating/torturing Iraqis to force them to 'confess'.

A quarter century later...

Racist cops pulling guns on and beating the citizens of New Orleans while uttering vile racist slurs at these citizens.

Racists in uniform... some choose to defend & support them. Disgusting.

I hope that Gov. Schwarzenegger has enough of a conscience to look fairly at Mr. Williams' clemency appeal, and does the right thing... by granting clemency.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #217
220. Wow, talk about a RED HERRING
:eyes:

What, if I might so humbly ask, does Iraq and New Orleans have to do with all this?
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #220
223. They have run out of propaganda.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 12:59 AM by hiaasenrocks
Now they have to talk about Iraq and New Orleans, two subjects that we all probably agree on in terms of disasters.

This entire fucking Save Tookie campaign is a disaster.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #217
222. i know you're aware of it, absolutely. but now knight-ridder is. it's
a very big deal. no MSM has uttered what they finally did now.

peace and solidarity!
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #222
226. You're right, this IS a big deal. Wonder if it will open any eyes?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #226
229. i am as skeptical (putting mildly) as you. please do not let some who
haven't even the courage to learn otherwise and graciously change their minds, be any measure.

they won't read or understand it, unless they want to know the truth of it all.

i just had to share it with you, because you have done so very much.

and inspired me when i needed that so.


peace!
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #222
254. sigh...
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #254
257. That is a powerful and informative link. NT
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #217
227. please let me say this. i agree with all what you say in that post. all
you are feeling is absolutely understandable and spot-on, Sapphire Blue.

i agonize to see it. and how real.

just please accept the importance of this being in any MSM.

you have done so much and it is YOURS to feel some tiny little bit of:

yes. okay.

then, on we work.

hang in, please.

:hug:


peace...
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #217
232. What's that old saying?
The more things change, the more they remain the same.

A common theme intertwined around the world, hatred and racism will continue until we can address the cause and make honest changes.

I second your statement: "I hope that Gov. Schwarzenegger has enough of a conscience to look fairly at Mr. Williams' clemency appeal, and does the right thing... by granting clemency."

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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #200
228. Powerful article, nofurylike!
Thank you for posting.

This information can't be ignored. If anything, we need to understand the system isn't always honest or just - history has a way of reminding us of those facts.

In the last 5 years, hatred has increased targeting blacks, minorities, gays, women, etc. Poverty and crime will continue to rise until we address those very issues, it's guaranteed.

History can be the best resource as we promote ending legalized executions. How can we as people afford to take the chance of killing one more innocent person? If there's the slightest doubt, we are guilty.

The DP is NOT the answer, Tookie Williams work in prison will continue to save thousands of inner city children with non-violent messages.

There are too many discrepancies in this case to ignore. Tookie has admitted to gang activities yet refuses to admit to the murders even if it means his death.



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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #228
231. thank you so much, FrustratedDemInNC! there is no question thiings
are bad and worse here, these days even more.

we have gigantic struggle to face!

to have even one single MSM get it is so much more than most would have believed possible...

thank you! for ALL you do!!


peace and solidarity!
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
233. 336 Books is *NOT* equal to an apology
Williams PR machine has really done a number with this handful of books.

You'd think that his books were in every childs hands throughout American.

In reality, the damage that Williams has done to America through his murders and the founding of his murder gang FAR FAR outweighs a couple boxes of books.

Williams will meet justice soon, a quarter century to late.

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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #233
234. I thought it was 332 books?
dont matter if its a million; if there is a Hell, its going to be recieving a distinguished guest very soon.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
238. NO Death Penalty. Instituted by THE STATE. Ever.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 02:46 AM by LibInTexas
You kill my wife. My friend. My child. My dog. You die. By my hand. I do not need your help.

Do not enlist me in your revenge. Or legitimize it because it is the STATE doing it. I am the STATE too. As are we all. I am not a part of your revenge.

Plus far more suffering will be exacted on a criminal who has life in a cell with no freedom. The release is death.

Plus there are too many proven innocent after the STATE killed them. In my name and yours.

Civilized countries do not have the death penalty.

There is only one type of person who should be put to death by the STATE. A Hitler or Stalin type who has been captured and cannot be counted on to not escape and wreck genocide again. But that is rare. Even Charles Manson is still sitting in prison stewing in his madness and never going to be free to kill again.

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
239. PLEASE EMAIL CALL FAX THE GOVERNOR!!!
Phone: 916-445-2841

Email: governor@governor.ca.gov

FAX: 916-445-4633

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814


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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
240. PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION FOR CLEMENCY!!!!
Please sign the petition for clemency
http://www.petitiononline.com/stw4804/petition.html

65,372 signatures now

Another petition
http://www.petitionthem.com/?sect=detail&pet=2240

26,428 signatures now


thank you!
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #240
247. Done.
I fear it will do no good though.

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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
256. HURRY! Only 5 shopping-days left, till EXECUTION! n/t
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 06:47 AM by Paradise
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
258. 12/7 *** DEBATE *** Clemency hearing tomorrow; For or Against DP?
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
266. *** I want to sincerely thank everyone who has posted on these threads.
... especially those of you who have posted unkind remarks... about this cause in which I dearly believe, the man for whom I advocate, and, in some cases, remarks directed against me.

So many of you are quick to point out that Stan Tookie Williams co-founded the Crips, was/is a "thug", believe he is guilty of the murders for which he was convicted. So many of you are quick to deny the racist aspects of the trial, the racist application of the DP.

Yes, he was most assuredly a "thug".

Yes, he co-founded the Crips (in reaction to already existing gangs.)

Yes, he was convicted of killing four people.

Is he a "thug" today? I don't believe that he is. Others disagree w/me.

Is he active in the Crips today? I don't believe that he is. Others disagree w/me.

Did he commit the murders for which he was convicted? I don't know. Stan Tookie Williams is the only one who knows the true answer to that question. I believe his answer. Others disagree w/me.

Were there racist aspects in the trial, are there racist applications of the DP? I believe that the trial was tainted by racism. I believe that the DP is disproportionately applied to blacks. Others disagree w/me.

Throughout these threads, I have seen some exceptionally vile hatred, I have seen blood lust, I have seen a blind overwhelming desire for vengeance on behalf of the victims. My soul weeps for these four victims... and every other victim violent death... all victims of horror, all victims of tragedy... yet I don't advocate vengeance, I don't crave anyone's blood. Others disagree w/me.

What I wish to thank you for, dear fellow DUers, especially those who have been unkind in posting, is teaching me that I need to work on my own faults. I need to work on 'turning the other cheek'. I need to work on 'loving my enemy'. I need to work on 'forgiveness'. I need to learn to be merciful to everyone. Under all circumstances. Always.

With thanks to you all, I will strive to do those things.


In gratitude,

Sapphire Blue

(NOTE: I first posted this on the new (12/7) thread. Since this thread has not yet been locked, I have also posted it here. Again, my thanks to DU.)



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Aretha Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #266
267. You and the Tookie threads
Spamtastic!
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
268. Can we get a Special TOOKIE Forum?
Or maybe just one dedicated to mass murder/book authors who have been nominated for the Nobel prize?....There we could discuss Tookie and Adolf Hitler.

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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
269. Locking
OP request
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