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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:54 AM
Original message
Two-Plus-Two Equals Four
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 12:00 PM by bigtree
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House criticized Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean on Tuesday for saying it is wrong to think the United States will win in Iraq, saying he was sending the wrong message to U.S. troops.

Scott McClellan said President George W. Bush is "focused on our plan for victory," . . .

"I think that on the eve of historic elections, it sends the wrong message to our troops. America wants our troops to win and we have a plan to help them succeed and we know that they will,"
McClellan said.

He suggested Dean had some explaining to do.

article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051206/pl_nm/iraq_bush_dc_1


He picked up the children's history book and looked at the portrait of Big Brother which formed its frontispiece. The hypnotic eyes gazed into his own. It was as though some huge force were pressing down upon you -- something that penetrated inside your skull, battering against your brain, frightening you out of your beliefs, persuading you, almost, to deny the evidence of your senses. In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense. And what was terrifying was not that they would kill you for thinking otherwise, but that they might be right. For, after all, how do we know that two and two make four? Or that the force of gravity works? Or that the past is unchangeable? If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable what then?

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. His heart sank as he thought of the enormous power arrayed against him, the ease with which any Party intellectual would overthrow him in debate, the subtle arguments which he would not be able to understand, much less answer. And yet he was in the right! They were wrong and he was right. The obvious, the silly, and the true had got to be defended. Truisms are true, hold on to that! The solid world exists, its laws do not change. Stones are hard, water is wet, objects unsupported fall towards the earth's centre. With the feeling that he was speaking to O'Brien, and also that he was setting forth an important axiom, he wrote:

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

- George Orwell's 1984


The Bush cabal has to know how deep they are in it in Iraq. But they are forced to find countless ways to explain how two-plus-two equals five there. No matter that everyone, including their own sorry selves, knows that Bush's boasting and posturing just doesn't add up to anything resembling the sad situation on the ground.

I don't think anyone in or out of this administration believes that Bush's Iraq experiment will end in anything other than total disaster, but they continue to try to convince us that with 2600+ soldiers killed to facilitate a tenuous power-sharing agreement masquerading as a constitution, we should look to claim some sort of victory, or some sort of success.

But, remember, we were taught to think for ourselves. We can believe the administration as they try to cover up their failure, their debacle, or we can believe our own eyes and trust our own minds. One-plus-one equals two, and two-plus-two equals four. Anything else is bullshit.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. kicked and nominated!
;-)
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for this reminder
The experiment to convince a person that 2+ 2 = 5 was interesting. It works if handled properly. Personal safety seems to enter the equation. Does a person want to just accept or ponder the question. I have a granddaughter that is so smart I keep accusing her of being adopted, being a C- student myself. She gets what is going on in this country (she is barely 17). She lives with my husband and me as her Mom moved to an area she couldn't feel good about. She loves it here with the family she grew up with, but, misses her Mom/my daughter. My daughter did a good job of allowing her 2 kids to think for themselves and have compassion for others.

Living in Oklahoma makes you see how illogical some people view the world and what is happening. They seem to cluster together and lean on one another for comfort and safety. Gawd they love god. That way they don't have to think and make decision for themselves. The easy route. So, keeping the issues out there as Dean is and a few others is critical.

Victory, winning, what the hell does that mean? So few ask.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I see signs that Americans are tired of being misled by Bush and his ilk
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 02:37 PM by bigtree
I think they are ready to accept that invading and occupying Iraq was a mistake, Bush's mistake. The only ones who feel we need some sort of sugar coating on the war are those who can't accept that they were misled in the first place. They're desperate for some validating moment which will never come. Their original rationale for war was false and every action that followed was tainted by their misrepresentations and justifications for invading. Their quest for validation and excuse for their blunder will go on until their nonsense is buried by the sad reality of the chaos they created.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. One plus one equals three
for some large values of "one".
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. When two or more conservatives gather in bullshit's name . . .
. . . Bush is there with them
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. Dean never once said our troops wouldn't win
Dean said America could not win in Iraq. The more killing our troops do the less chance we can ever win anything in Iraq. Remember our supposed goal is to end terrorism. does anybody believe killing Iraqi women and children will accomplish that goal? Ain't gunna happen...
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. McClellan wants to dilute the meaning of victory by using the troops
as a replacement for the target of Gov. Dean's remarks, which were directed towards the Iraq debacle as a whole, and not intended as a criticism of the soldier's performance in the mission they were given by Bush.

The White House has repeatedly shifted their justifications for the war when their rationale becomes indefensible in face of the facts on the ground. Likewise, their definition of victory is going to follow the same pattern of deflection and obfuscation whenever their lies conflict with reality.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. Victor Hugo wrote in his book protesting the coup of Louis Bonaparte
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 03:41 PM by bigtree

"Now, get seven million five hundred thousand votes to declare that two and two make five, that the straight line is the longest road, that the whole is less than its part; get it declared by eight millions, by ten millions, by a hundred millions of votes, you will not have advanced a step. Well, then, now you are going to be surprised. There are axioms in probity, in honesty, in justice, as there are axioms in geometry; and the truths of morality are no more at the mercy of a vote than are the truths of algebra. The notion of good and evil cannot be resolved by universal suffrage. It is not given to a ballot to make the false become the true and the unjust the just. The human conscience cannot be put to the vote. ...

Thus then, whatever be your figures, controverted or not, extorted or not, true or false, it little matters. Those who live with their eyes fixed on justice will say, and keep on saying that crime is crime, that perjury is perjury, that treason is treason, that murder is murder, that blood is blood, that dirt is dirt, that a rascal is a rascal . . ."

http://lewrockwell.com/long/long12.html
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Mutley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm sick of this 'sending the wrong message to the troops" crap.
Saying that is only a way of trying to silence dissent. I think the troops are perfectly capable of accepting or rejecting whatever 'messages' they might be getting and going about doing what they are supposed to be doing.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
10.  'Why We Cannot Win', from a soldier stationed in Iraq
"Because the current administration is more concerned with its image than it is with reality, it prefers symbolism to substance: soldiers are dying here and being maimed and crippled for life. It is tragic, indeed criminal that our elected public servants would so willingly sacrifice our nation's prestige and honor as well as the blood and treasure to pursue an agenda that is ahistoric and un-Constitutional."

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/lorentz1.html
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Mutley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Huh. Now THERE'S a bad message to send the troops.
The President is more concerned with his image... hmmmmmmm.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. Orwell wrote in an essay published before '1984'
"Nazi theory indeed specifically denies that such a thing as ‘the truth’ exists. There is, for instance, no such thing as ‘Science’. There is only ‘German Science’, ‘Jewish Science’, etc. The implied objective of this line of thought is a nightmare world in which the Leader, or some ruling clique, controls not only the future but the past. If the Leader says of such and such an event, ‘It never happened’—well, it never happened. If he says that two and two are five—well, two and two are five. This prospect frightens me much more than bombs—and after our experiences of the last few years that is not a frivolous statement."

http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/essays/lookingback2.htm
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Dances with Cats Donating Member (545 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. In this day and age
2 + 2 = 22. The world is stood upon its head.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. .
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