Burning the flag bothers me

I don't give a damn if it sounds right-wing, left-wing or in-between. It represents a country I love. This country no doubt has gone to hell in a hand basket under this administration, but burning the flag doesn't make it all about them.

I understand the symbolism of free speech involved with it and definitely respect that, but it seems the anger used when burning the flag is at the country overall and not just the government.

Even though this administration tries to drape themselves in the American flag and tout "My country 'tis of thee," and "you're either with or us or against us," they are not the know-all and see-all of what makes America great. (they obviously don't know a damn thing) Yeah, they've screwed it up in the last five years, but there are many of us desperately trying to right the wrong they've so harshly inflicted on this nation. John Murtha is one that comes to mind. When I think of him, John Kerry, Max Cleland, FDR, my veteran parents and so many more who have fought and continue to fight in the best interest of our country, not only does it make me proud, but it makes me want to continue to fight the corruption so prevalent now.

The rwing is good at using their pseudo-patriotic and "christian" playbook to lace-up their full attack and unfortunately it usually works. Why continue to play on their turf?

But by the same token, don't restrict the rights of others. And really, if you think about it, the fact that it does bother you suggests that flag burning is an effective statement. At least it gets your attention.

edit-- why can't I spell?

you are right about it getting attention. All the wrong kind of attention. The majority of Americans are so horrified at flag burning, they believe those who do it are anti-American fringe lunatics and would not even consider WHY the flag burning was taking place. It's just another one of those counterproductive demonstrations that turn more people off to the "cause" than attracting anyone to your side.

It should remain a right of free speech, but those who do it should not be be surprised at the reactions of the majority to it - it's not going to be good. Imagine a flag burning at halftime during the Super Bowl. You'd be damn lucky to get out of there alive. No one is going to stop to ask you why you're doing it.

Have you?

They burn tattered flags for local residents.

The American Legion disposes of unservicable flags on Flag Day, June 14. It's a pretty nifty ceremony.

As for protests, I'm betting most people haven't seen it except on TV.

and some of them, even fairly violent -- the FTAA protest in Miami in Nov. 2003 springs immediately to mind -- but I have never seen anyone burn an American flag in protest. Except on the news, of course, where they show the same three or four clips over and over again.

I think the majority of protestors either aren't interested at all in burning flags or realize that it doesn't help their cause a bit.

THAT bothers me.

that bother mex( and that is just one on a long list.

and sell beer with the D-cup models wearing them?
Just curious, seen these babies selling in K-mart and no one says shit.

that's what I see.

and to me more offensive. at least the burners (as rare as they are) are doing it to get people to think, instead of the old purchase and forget. burp.

especially when I see someone covered from head to toe. It's usually a disguise for their bigotry.

but i say don't touch the burner till you go after these guys first.

Fred Phelps came to Canada and burned a Canadian flag on the steps of parliament - no one really cared, except for one mountie who gave Phelps a ticket for having an 'uncontrolled fire in a public space'.

Phelps has since been banned from entering Canada for hate speech, but not because of the flag thing - because he advocated killing homosexuals. (groups like the Clan are banned here, along with other terrorist organizations.)

In order to preserve a symbol of this country? Sacrifice the Constitution in order to preserve Old Glory? What is the use of flying the Stars and Stripes if what makes that symbol great is ripped to shreds?

Sorry, but I would much rather preserve the Constitution. For me it boils down to the First Amendment. And even though I don't like Neo Nazis marching in this country, I will protect their right to do so, because the First Amendment is part of what makes this country great, not a piece of cloth on a flagpole.

the First Admendment is important to me as well. This isn't a discussion about BANNING the flag burning, it's a discussion about what it represents as a WHOLE and that DOES INCLUDE the Constitution.

Enumerated in the Constitution. Including the First Amendment, freedom of speech, freedom of expression. Putting more boundaries on the First Amendment though will simply render the flag an empty shell, devoid of meaning, a piece of cloth that would only represent what this country was.

I would rather preserve the Constitution in order that the flag can continue to symbolize every little thing this country stands for.

1. SHould people be able to burn the flag?

2. Should people choose to burn the flag?

I would submit that the answer to the first question is probably yes; as distastful as i find it, burning the flag is covered under freedom of speech.

I would submit that the answer to the second question is probably no; burning the flag serves no purpose to me, and desecrates a symbol many Americans find pretty important.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

By advocating that we should keep our right to burn the flag intact I am in no way advocating that we should all go out and burn a flag. Frankly, I've never seen a flag burned in protest in this country, at least not live and in person.

But maintaining that right to express ourselves in such a way is vital. The old slippery slope arguement, today we ban burning the flag, what's next, banning speaking out against our president because, as many RW fanatics maintain, that to is unpatriotic.

and understand where you are coming from.

As a protest statement. The flag burning issue is just another overdone Repub wedge issue. Nothing to see here - now get back to the mall.

:applause:

But lack of choice and freedom bothers me more.

that the very thing the American flag stands for is the right to burn it. It's a difficult point for most people, and too difficult for many.

and it is a two-fold situation that means different things for different people.

disposing of tattered or soiled flags.

I wouldn't advocate burning a flag to annoy people, in fact I'd probably counsil against it. At the same time, I'd advocate against an amendment to the constitution to prohibit flag burning.

for political ends by attempting to amend the Constitution (& this isn't the first time that has been done)
You have every right to find the act offensive.

the point that I guess I wanted to make.:)

Personally, what happens to a piece of cloth isn't that important to me. I would never burn a flag in protest because 1) it's counterproductive, and 2) it's not my style to deliberately incite the ire of someone else. (At least, it usually isn't my style. Apologies to anyone who might have been on the receiving end of a "bad day" post.)

To me this issue is unimportant enough that I hope the Democrats will denounce flag burning so the pubbies can bring up the next wedge issue that hopefully will be equally ignorable. The Dems need say nothing but that they think flag-burning is a bad way to make a statement, then (hopefully) start on issues that have meaning like living wages, health care--you know, things that actually matter.

Jesus H. Christ on a trailer hitch! I've wasted three paragraphs on this issue and even though they're poorly written, I'm not gonna edit them. Deal with it.

Just what is an American flag? Is an American flag all previous historical flags? Is it OK to burn them? Is the flag legally,only the current official fifty star flag? What if I made a flag with fifty-one stars in it's field identical to the fifty star flag but with the extra star, would there be an uproar if I burned that?

course, just the standard letter of why she would support an amendment. I asked if the flag has to be made of fabric. What if it's paper, like those cupcake decorations? I asked if I sewed one using red, white, and blue prints, would it be a flag? I asked about all those tattered and faded car decals, would the person that owned the car be arrested? What if I burned a picture of the flag? You know, a symbol of a symbol?

Any amendment would just be stupid! I took down and rolled up my American flag immediately after Bush's 2002 SOTU address. I will never fly it again as long as we occupy Iraq. I will not pledge alliance to a flag until the US of A ceases to be a fascist state. You can pass any laws you want, but I will not acknowledge your right to suppress my rights as set forth in the Constitution.

The occasion I chose was the summer solstice 2005. The certificate even says so. That flag is in my office, hanging upside down.

It represents this country as a whole - its history and its future. It represents the ideals of democracy, not specific fights or arguments within that democracy at any given time. It represents what our Founding Fathers had in mind when they established this country. It stands for the higher ideals that we aspire to, not the mistakes we've fallen into. When someone burns a flag - anyone - that says to me that they hate America the country - not that they hate a president, a policy or a law. I'm "America the country" and so are you - that's what they are burning.

I support free speech totally but I'm offended by flag burning. If you have a problem with an elected official, if you don't like a policy, if you disagree with an administration, then demonstrate, march, burn an effigy of them. Definitely speak up - that's a basic cornerstone in a democracy. But, have respect for the country you are trying to change. You obviously have enough love for the country to care enough to stand up and do something when you see things going awry. So why be self-defeating and burn a symbol of that very same country?

:thumbsup:

The Flag is what it is for you, for me, for others. You are free to say what it means to you, and I encourage you to do so.

However, here in the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, you are required, as an American, to accept and allow other free Americans to voice what that Flag means to them. And just as some people speak in English and others Spanish, some wax poetic and some spout numbers, some will interpret the Flag in ways the differ from your own.

Some will burn their Flag. Their Flag. Not yours. They've no right to touch your proudly waved Flag, just as you've no right to smother theirs.

That takes bravery, to allow others to do so. That's what free speach is all about. Letting others speak their minds, their hearts, their souls. Knowing that, in doing so, your OWN mind, heart and soul can speak out, just as freely, just as proudly. In the crosscurrent of messages our founding fathers had faith that Truth would win out over rhetoric, that the honest common man would be heard over the dishonest ruler, and that wisdom would listen, understand, and thus find the path to justice.

Only a coward fears free expression. Only a fool ignores it. Only a Tyrant would outlaw it.

there are members of my family, including my father & stepdad, who have served this country in various wars/conflicts, and when their service was over, the flag was held in such high regard within my family. as an african american, i grew up in a very patriotic & VERY democratic household. and i agree with another poster who said the flag is not the exclusive property of one party to the detriment of the other. i also agree that this is nothing more than a wedge issue. imho, dems should not take the bait on this one, and live to fight another day on much more important issues that affect the day-to-day lives of ordinary people.

...that wasn't on TV, over in some foreign country?

?

?

it is just a non-issue

Gay Republicanism is FAR MORE RAMPANT than flag burning.

represented on Du..

is a good demonstration of more rampant gay Republicanism than flag burning.

:puke:

Sorry about the visual.

no appology needed thankfully.

The flag burners don't even have meetings.

I liken it to hearing painful truths.

Consider it a view into the national psyche. How do you know if people are happy about the nation? How do you know HOW happy people are with the nation?

Freedom is speaking your mind. Bravery is allowing others to be free. Our nations founders understood this. The NeoCons reject it.

Our ideals and unwavering determination to live up to the gifts of the Founding Fathers cannot be held in your hand.

Neither can they be burnt, except into the consciousness of those of us who refuse to give up fighting for them - in all ways which are not physical.

The day you can free yourself of your attachment to specific material symbols is the day you can begin to appreciate the magnitude of the Great American Experiment.

:eyes:

It must have been so incredibly painful for them to mentally separate themselves from their own Mother Country - Britain. That was their home and ancestry. Their flag, their king, their fellow citizens. Their incredibly rich and varied history, tradition, customs, etc.

And once they crossed the Rubicon, committing treason and separating themselves FOREVER from the land they sprung from - that must have caused a psychic wound as deep and wide as the Atlantic itself. They were truly orphans on their own, men without a country.

Huge risk, huge gamble and it didn't pay off for most of their lifetimes.

You can never reduce the greatness of their sacrifice to a colored piece of cloth. They would be hugely disappointed to think you ever did.

I'd like to see some statistics on this. How often are American flags really being burned? It seems almost like an urban legend to me - I've never seen it & it seems like most other people haven't either. It reminds me a little of all the "bra-burning" feminists supposedly did in the 70's - it became an iconic image used to discredit feminism, even though it probably never happened. The whole flag-burning issue seems like an easy way to discredit anti-war activists or protestors as unpatriotic & hating America; without even needing evidence that it's a real problem.

bra burning...not that's true freedom:applause:

According to something I got from the ACLU this past year there was exactly one documented case of flag burning in the entire United States last year. And for THAT they want to amend the Constitution to take away the freedom of a particular form of political speech.

when others do. That's what freedom is all about. As far as the flag is concerned,IMO it's piece of cloth and nothing more.

I still get choked up at watching "It's a Wonderful Life," so call me a sap:)

cheap ass piece of Chinese cloth at that.

Why would anyone want to burn a flag anyway - I've never seen it. If they make it illegal, burnings will go up 100000 % I predict.

So did Larry Flynt and 2 Live Crew and Howard Stern and tons of other people.

But the First Amendment allows for all of these.

Simply ask, "Why do Republicans hate freedom?"

Why are people even talking about this crap?

The only time I'd think burning a flag was a good idea is if they made it illegal. Making free expression illegal is offensive and I will not stand for it. Catch me if you can.

The flag is a piece of cloth. The sole reason we hold the flag dear is that it is a surrogate for the Constitution. What people need to understand is that it is utterly meaningless to protect a piece of cloth if one undermines that for which the piece of cloth stands.

I support the Constitution. If somebody burns a flag as a statement of displeasure for the USA, that's political speech. No damage has been done to anybody or anything other than cloth. But if one waters down the principles for which people have fought and died for to save a piece of cloth that is utterly repugnant to me.

sweatpants, etc.

People who choose to burn the flag in protest understand what the flag means, the symbol that it is to Americans and (IMO) have given the flag a level of respect (in a weird sense).

People who sit on flag blankets at 4th of July picnics, or wear flag t-shirts to bars or wear flag baseball caps (backwards...ugh) in my mind have no idea what the American flag represents.

I don't plan on burning any flags as I do hold the American flag in high regard. I cringe every time I see a flag polo shirt or 'baggies' on people walking by. x(

This woman needs to do some hard jail time for Hillary.

Since H. Clinton is co-sponsoring this inane bill.



Jail the General I say



Not to mention tasteful Trademarking of a man's last words on a 9-11 flight imprinted on a flag.



Or the flag sewn into Bush-Cheney gear made in Burma...

burning them, I mean? I've seen this done, but never a flag burning--except in images from other countries.

Just curious.

I haven't seen anyone burn a flag in quite a while.

At least, not any US citizens...

can't recall that I have actually witnessed one.

is because the fundies and reich wingers are out of ideas, and need to keep feeding that sense of victimhood among their base.

Look out! Its the flagburners! And the communists!

and while it bothers me, I don't think it should be an issue that demands banning. Wedge issue again and some have taken the bait.

I have never had the inclination to burn the flag and I don't think I probably ever would... but reverence for, or glorification of the flag certainly doesn't "stir my heart up into a patriotic frenzy".

I guess if I'm an idealist, it's that I'm just waiting for the world depicted in John Lennon's song "Imagine". No country... no need for a flag. Pretty simple.

(Well that and disposing of them properly.)

It bothers me too but if someone is that pissed off and thinks that's how s/he wants to show how pissed they are they're within their rights to do it.
Playing on their turf is getting drawn into these debates over symbols and events that rarely take place, IMHO. I mean, is flag burning rampant or something?

Someone above said there is like one incident a year of flag-burning. It's a non-issue. But if Congress actually tries to ban it, they'll be protests on the Capitol steps w/people burning the flag; protestors doing it at anti-war rallies, & other just looking for 15 minutes of fame. Then we would finally get to see actual news images of a flag-burning. Ironically, prohibiting flag-burning is probably the best way to encourage it!

I'd say not to an outside observer, particularly in a supposedly democratic republic such as the US, where the government is assumed to be acting on the will of the people.

And you ought to consider what the flag might represent to someone who burns it as an act of political protest. It may represent the ideals of America (an America that's never really existed, I might add) to you, but it also represents two centuries of treachery and oppression of Native Americans, slavery and Jim Crow, and a lot of other unsavoury things besides. Patriotism is just as much a form of blindness as any other prejudice, in my opinion.

US. It's not their country. For each and every one of us the flag means something different and by being able to express it makes my point.

While I agree that there is much history in this country that is "unsavory," it's a two-fold issue 'cause there are those who have fought bravely and won (Rosa Parks comes to mind) to see the good in what that flag represents.

it IS going to matter to people living outside the US, especially given a long history of US military intervention and interference in the politics of other sovereign nations (in South and Central America for a century now, the Middle East for the past fifty years, et cetera). May not be their country, but I'd say they certainly have as much right to their opinion as you do to yours given the history involved. The US doesn't exist in a vacuum, after all.

a broader issue which should be a thread all on it's own.

that is the whole point. YOU (or anyone else) don't get to decide what is and what isn't "allowed" speech simply because something "bothers" you. This is the nature and the challenge of real freedom.

"it bothers me" makes my point:)

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you can put the fire out. Carry an extinguisher around at all times. I'm almost 60, have been in the trenches of the front lines of liberal progressive work since I was 20 and in all that time and in all those circumstances, I have never seen a flag burned. Now, I have seen a bunch of tattered things hanging from peoples homes and businesses and I was taught that that was sacrilegious and a desecration of the flag. I was taught that wearing the flag in clothing was a desecration, but today, flag ties are big with the rw's.

Hillary needs to get a grip, change parties and be done with this nonsense.

Neither do I care for commercial or political exploitation of the flag. However, I don't demand the Constitution be amended to match my exquisite sensibilities.

"Free Speech" goes beyond symbolism.

I have never seen a flag burned at a protest. I have seen one defaced, and the person who did it got quite an earful and quickly removed the defaced flag. Involving the authorities never crossed my mind. The Constitution clearly protected his expression however distasteful or misguided I may have found it.

We are already so far gone down the road to a fascist police state. We do not need to go any further. What's next loyalty oaths and religious tests, which are also unconstitutional. The duty is to uphold and defend the Constitution, not to any other national symbol.