Re: Dean and Kerry--What's more important, "framing" or telling the truth?

"The idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong.”

-- DNC Chairman Howard Dean, in an interview with WOAI Radio in San Antonio, TX.

"And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the-of-the historical customs, religious customs."

-- Sen. John Kerry, on Face the Nation.

Damaging? Political fodder for our enemies?

Or just the damn truth.

Thoughts?

Its nice to see a great military experts like Howard Dean and John Kerry show their support for our troops.

and goodbye

far better than letting them continue to die for nothing, actually

by incompetents.

but it's the truth... and any politician who claims that lying to the troops, to convince them that their suffering is for some noble cause, is a treasonous, troop-hating bastard

to speak truth.

Then ask, now how do we convince apathetic voters to get out and vote, how do we convince independents to make a decision to vote dem, how do we snag swing voters, and how do we rally our own base to go out and vote at the polls?

If we ask the second question and assume that we will accept nothing less than the truth for starters, then the only question is getting our message across. That's framing.

it makes my head spin. Yellow magnets aren't showing support. Support the war? Sign up. Let me guess...bad back? Right. That seems to be the G.O.P. "I'd fight but..." excuse of choice.


on edit...I almost forgot...Welcome to DU.

the hell out of a war based on lies.

Bush and his cronies lied to the American people and to Congress. There's a name for that.

"Its nice to see a great military experts like" is a desecration of the English language


Second:

Don't overstay your welcome.

5 deferments Cheney?
Grounded and AWOL Bush?
I didn't grow up with a phone so no recruiter called me in high school Hannity?
Too many "minorities" so no room DeLay?
"I believe it was titled, bin Laden determined to attack inside the US." Rice?
"Well, Who knows?" Rumsfeld?
"I did NOT have a boil on my ass" Limbaugh?
C'mere Kitty, kitty, kitty Frist?
I'll take another polish sausage Hastert?

Or someone else you had in mind?

Kind of blows your mind in print, doesn't it? :hi: :thumbsup:

or criticize the POLICIES (emphasis on policies) that require our troops to intimidate, abuse and injure Iraqi civilians.

Finally soldiers are not perfect and they are not immune from my criticism or that of anyone else. I'm sorry that they've been put in such an unttenable situation, but that doesn't mean that they actions are immune from criticism.

Kerry, unlike your heros Bush and Cheney, is a highly decorated war veteran, who actually learned what a guerrilla war is when he was in Vietnam. He was sensitive and perceptive enough to see the damage done by well meaning soldiers, such as he was, when they stopped people (on the canals in his case) and searched for weapons. Their inability to speak the language or fully understand the culture, per his observations made life harder for the Vietnamese. In one of his journal entries, he mentioned seeing a small boy glaring at them as they stopped boats - he understood but was sadden by the fact that this child hated them.

Kerry has mentioned the idea that the US should transfer the functions of policing and search and destroy to the Iraqis. This will relieve the soldiers of what is one of the most deadly activities (especially for foreigners not understanding the language and thus missing hints of danger) while stopping an action that is increasing anti-American hatred. Would you be terrorized if soldiers who didn't speak your language broke into your house and started to look around?

Dean saying we can't win depends on what you mean by win. In the traditional sense, we already won.

lol

Bye troll.

Congrates on the troll LittleClarkie, consider it a badge of honor. ;)

Howard Dean's ability to Govern up against George Bush's?

My God....:wow: No Contest

It isn't easy.

Americans have done far too much following and to little debate. However, we need to debate potential solutions and not just parrot words back at one another. Dean and Kerry are pushing the debate forward and thats a good thing.

in a world of public opinion and politics. In that world persuasion matters.

In fact, in the real world persuasion and framing matters.

Let’s try this, I’ll try to explain by example what I mean about the importance of language and framing:

Which is better:

“Get off your lazy asses and do something for your country.”

Or:

“Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.”

How about this:

“ 87 years ago some old guys founded this great nation. Now they are all dead. But, anyways, we were fighting like cats and dogs, and a shit load of soldiers crumped in this old corn field and well, here we are, today. Honoring these dead guys.

In case you are worried, we will dedicate this worthless farm, at little or not cost to you the tax payer, to the dead guys that were, until recently, laying around here drawing flies. Now this is scared ground. I guess.

Just remember, that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth, and you all know what that means? Yupper. Vote for Honest Abe. Thanks for being here. Laters. I’m off to lunch with Mary Todd and that hunk in union blue, James, my man and bed warmer for the last few years. Cause when I say civil union..I mean civil UNION! Ta!”

Or:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.


Sit bluedawg sit!

something is never said.

against cleverly phrased lies.

the elections are not in a vacuum. not only do we have to tell the truth, but we have to counter our opponents cleverly crafted lies and be persuasive.

I am tired of spin, you can not run this country on spin, our country
is teetering on collapse, it's almost as if running the country has
become a reality challenge show. I want Dr. Dean, Wesley Clark and
John Kerry and John Murtha to tell the truth and help us get control
of the country before it goes over the cliff.

I pretty much ignore broadcast journalism -- a TV news director once punched me in the mouth for remarking at a party that "television news is a contradiction in terms" -- and had you not posted the remarks I would have missed them. Thanks again.

As to the consequences of the statements, I think we as a nation have gone far beyond the point where normal considerations such as "damaging" or "political fodder" have any relevance at all. Internationally the United States is nearly as despised as Nazi Germany was -- and for many of the same reasons, including the fact it is obvious to Europe both Iraq and the aftermath of Katrina are merely the opening offensives of an onslaught to elevate the U.S. corporate oligarchy to global omnipotence. Domestically the Bush Administration is finally being recognized for what it is -- the ultimate achievement of American capitalism, tasked with unleashing the tyrannosauric savagery that has always been implicit in capitalism's core values -- with the result that a growing number of U.S. citizens are awakening to the truth articulated by Gore a few weeks ago: that never in history has American liberty been in such jeopardy.

In this context, truthful criticism (no matter how damning) is vital. In the eyes of the world we could not look any worse than we already do -- and such criticism will at least make it clear not everyone is marching in lockstep with Bush, his corporate masters and their JesuNazi stormtroopers: a point that needs to be made not only abroad, but to rally the people here at home.

numbers? Perhaps our message?

This is fodder for the right and can really make Americans angry.




This can also upset Americans as it sounds slam-bang we’re dead over there negative.




I agree with those who understand the importance of words.

It is lethal for democrats to imply that American soldiers terrorize anyone.

American soldiers terrorizing kids and children, women. Huh?

Or that we can “Never Win”.

We never win.

We can never win.

What is the point of this freaking line of thought?

This is our chance to win over hearts and minds, why not do the best job we can, not any old job we can?

Let's see if we get a bounce from it. A bit too soon yet.

while making your opponent look as bad as he truly is. while winning over hearts and minds.

I'm Ok with the tactic, the execution concerns me.