You know, some of you people are full of shit

You claim to be "liberal". Tolerant. Progressive. Caring. Thoughtful.

Yet I see a lot of hatred and questionable character.

Enough with the "Fry Tookie" threads.

Enough.

I remember the Reparations threads. It was the same.

Practice what you preach.

Either you're for humanity and what's right, or you're not.

We were inundated for days with pro-Tookie spam.

Now the other side of the equation is being laid out for all to see the evil the man did.

Don't like it? Click the X.

:nuke:

Mr. "Fry his ass and his seed" Starr.

He's gonna get a needle stuck in his arm.

I bet a MILLION dollars you wouldn't say that anywhere except the safety of your computer and keyboard. Am I right? Hell I KNOW I am....

I'd say it to any Tookie Groupy's face any day of the week.

Tookie is an evil man who will face his comeuppance on December 12.

But you wouldn't say it to anyones face. Not this topic or any other. I can tell.

about that other vile evil murderous bastard, Wesley Cook.

and I'm pretty good at reading people, Walt.

:eyes:

I leave you to CatWoman...she is w-a-y more than a match for you. Parting shot. Since you are from Chicago I hope you liked Governor Ryans Commuting. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! And he is a republican. Aren't you?

he imposed a moratorium so all DP cases could be reviewed.

And, it was the right thing to do.

More than a dozen were exonerated. Completely innocent. 167 had their sentences commuted to life.


:snip..: CHICAGO, Illinois (CNN) -- Outgoing Illinois Gov. George Ryan announced Saturday that he had commuted the sentences of all of the state's death row inmates and said he would "sleep well knowing I made the right decision."

Good job tracking that down, Lincoln.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/11/illinois.death.row/

'Ol Walt is full of beans, he knows it, and so do I.

He utterly full of beans and shit tonight. There's a lot of hot air in his posts tonight.

To you , murder is perfectly acceptable as long as the person getting murdered is someone you think deserves it.

any more than I consider an abortion at 6 weeks gestation murder.

The way I figure, the average person on death row is just that, A PERSON. That is something you seem to gleefully ignore: humanity.

you lost me there Walt

state-sanctioned murder which puts us on the level with Iran, Saudi Arabia and China. What great company. Murder is murder is murder. Period.

between what some people deserve and giving this "government" the power to decide and administer it. Capital punishment is so final, and serves politics more than it does justice.

When things are about "comeuppance", maybe something will be done about the people responsible for 2000+ dead American troops in Iraq. Or thousands at risk because they can't afford health insurance. Or undocumented "detainees" dying in secret prisons. These are real, ongoing "capitol" crimes.

I'm not thirsty for anyone's blood, but if I were, I'd go for the most "successful" criminals to quench it.

Huh!

or ignorant of what he did and the pain it caused to oppose execution.

Unless technology has changed and execution restores the dead to life, what does society gain from killing?
Is sterile cold hearted killing actually better?

"who cares."

THAT is what perfectly sums up your mentality. The guy should get a just punishment, as in not get murdered for murder. Please....

went through at the hands of that young man. how can you expect me to respect his life.

him, but disrespect doesn't mean there is a need for further wanton killing. Hate him all you want, but murdering someone will never get us anywhere.

There is no way he can hurt anyone else. If anything, he is actually making the most of what he has of his life. Why kill someone in those circumstances?

gang members on the outside to reach out and touch someone. you nor I have any idea what his demeanor will be if his sentence is reduced to life.

You've been watching Goodfellas too many times.

Is this what it has come to? As long as he has a pulse, he is a menace to society? What? The fact that you have no idea what his demeanor will be makes the death penalty so disgusting. You are not living in reality, he does not pose a threat to anyone while in a prison. Even if he was let out, you'd be hard-pressed to make him look like a threat.

Subject: sure he can, he can kill other inmates, guards, or ask one of his
Message:
gang members on the outside to reach out and touch someone. you nor I have any idea what his demeanor will be if his sentence is reduced to life.

The pro-Tookies did not want the man free, they want him to stay behind bars without parole, which means he will die in jail.

for his crime(s).

murder is murder is murder.

be it by an individual, or the state.

too bad that's way over your head.

put a fucking sock in it.

The state carries out justice.

Vengance and justice are entirely different concepts. Now, you may well support the role of the state as an instrument of vengance, and I can respectfully disagree.

But to sully the term justice with the concept of state licensed killing is sad. Walt, I know you well enough to be quite sure that you are capable of far better than this.

If the death penalty had ANYTHING to do with vengeance, the families of victims would determine the punishment.

Since we have an adversarial system with a jury of peers which determines whether the DP will or will not be applied, it is about JUSTICE!

I'll inform all the innocent people who were given the death penalty that it was simply "justice" that killed them. :puke:

I'll also be sure to tell Leonard Peltier that he is in prison because of "justice".

I have a suggestion for you: WAKE UP.

Any vigilante could say the same thing. When the lines of "justice" and "murder" become negligable, you need to stop and think a second.

So anything the state does is "justice", regardless of the reality? Great thought process. Blindly saying the state is right, no matter what the facts are. That is exactly what leads to injustice.

Really, the nerve!

:eyes:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

love. you. :loveya:

GIVE EM HELL CATWOMAN!

Might people with opposing viewpoints also feel strongly? Might we find a more productive mode of discourse than "fuck you"'s?

until I educated myself, courtesy of intelligent, compassionate DUers.

Hey, we disagree on the issue and I'm O.K. with that. I'm fine with you stating your case. I just don't see where the hostility's coming from.

fuck you is reserved specifically for you.

However, I really don't feel hostile tonight. Maybe you could hurl childish insults at me another time?

:hi:

:hi:

I can do that now if you prefer.

thanks, though...

that. me I would be pissed.

...and I've been around here long enough to not take one night's exchange too seriously.

:)

Just asking - what does deter?

Not everyone murders people without provacation for fun or bidness.Not everyone gets off on committing torture or pedophilia. Some people do this shit because they got no self control and no desire to empathize with others and cannot feel shame,they have no consience..The people who do these things are not to be trusted with existance.They ABUSE other human beings for a thrill.They are morally dead inside.

If making the society I share with others safe enough to exist within means killing off the sociopaths who cannot be rehabbed because they cannot feel shame guilt or love stops the danger than so be it.. Killing off people who cannot be trusted around other human beings because the criminal socopath cannot control himself enough to NOT HURT others is NOT evil it's actually in the case of a sociopath who cannot be trusted,MORAL...

Torture rape and domination is evil.Keeping a person in a little cell for the rest of thier life is torture. Death is preferable to that.

TRhere is a REASON why most human beings do not torture ,rape or do such acts. The person who is able to respect freedom and the consent of others and human rights knows how to not abuse others..Because he empathizes with others,he will not be a danger to humanity and break the trust of our society because his character and his inner locus of control restrains him from within..

A sociopath has no such limits.
A sociopath cannot be trusted.

anyone who thinks someone's life is worthless and basically dead, and therefore can be murdered without pity, is insane.

The policy you support does exactly what you foolishly preach against. "they got no self control and no desire to empathize with others and cannot feel shame..." Thanks for describing yourself pretty well.

Oh, and it's called life without parole. Thanks for playing.

anyone who thinks someone's life is worthless and basically dead, and therefore can be murdered without pity, is insane.

IF they are a rapist,a tyrant, a pedophile or a torturer
They ARE worthless and cannot be trusted.They harm that is what they use thier life for choosing to inflict Harm.
I have boundaries limits on what I TOLERATE

I do not TOLERATE criminals who choose to rape abuse kids sexually or be a tyrant or torturer..Because I do not wish to be in a society that tolerates such things.Sometimes you have to excecize judgement refuse to TRUST and have clear BOUNDARIES.

The policy you support does exactly what you foolishly preach against. "they got no self control and no desire to empathize with others and cannot feel shame..." Thanks for describing yourself pretty well.

Your type of"tolerance" is sick. Your tolerance and misplaced pity is what gets innocent people victimized.Victims who have DONE NOTHING except be in the sights of a power tripping asshole who chose to hurt them for kicks..

Oh, and it's called life without parole. Thanks for playing.

Life without parole.. Well ...when life without parrole really means LIFE live until you DIE in jail,and not get 10 years off with good behavior or plea bargain off 20 years off a sentance if you rat out another criminal, or suck the right political ass.

If criminals can work the system and get away with crimes without doing time,when murder gets 5 years rape 2..Justice is not being done.How long is life in prison REALLy?.



6/5/05 - DR inmate admits to a another murder during escape

An inmate sentenced to death for a killing committed during a 1999 escape has written a letter to a newspaper confessing to another killing. The slaying to which Kenneth D. Williams confessed would make him responsible for the deaths of four people, including a Springfield, Mo., man killed after Williams escaped in 1999. Williams, 26, says in a 5 1/2-page letter to the Pine Bluff Commercial newspaper that he shot and killed Jerrell Jenkins, 36, of Pine Bluff on Dec. 13, 1998, the same day that he fatally shot Dominique Hurd, a cheerleader at the University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff. Police had listed Jenkins' death as unsolved. "I take full responsibility for my actions and whatever consequences my peers see fit," Williams wrote. Williams said he was a born-again Christian and wanted to confess his sins. He was convicted of kidnapping and killing Hurd and of kidnapping and assaulting her date. He was sentenced to life in prison without parole. He escaped on Oct. 3, 1999, while serving that sentence at the Cummins Unit of the state prison system in Lincoln County, Ark. After 57-year-old farmer Cecil Boren was slain at his home near the prison,....


http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/LWOP.htm

http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/cabuse4.htm

The justice system is not just.So if they get out why?

If they cannot be trusted..they cannot be free. One way to make sure a person you cannot trust cannot harm again is to KILL them.

self-delete

Not a big deal.

decide. we need to be more involved in our government. we need to seek jury duty. we need to question authority to make sure justice is carried out. the only fear I have with the death penalty is that we will kill an innocent person, but other than that I really don't think death is the worst thing a person can experience.

I think the fear that those people experience at the hands of tookie far exceeded the their deaths. can you imagine seeing someone kill your wife and daughter and being helpless to fight for them. Wow.....

I am against the death penalty mainly because I cannot, in good conscience, support a system that is flawed, because, in the end, somebody's life is at stake. I am sure the majority of them deserve any fate that they get, but it is a fact in this country that we have executed innocent people and people who were mentally retarded. The first one too big a risk to take I think, and I believe the other is immoral.

I am also pretty religious and I don't feel comfortable supporting an institution that ends the life of somebody. I am just uneasy over that. I used to be a little more pro-death penalty. I am in limbo in many ways now. I can see why we have it, I can also see why we shouldn't have it. When I say it isn't up to us to decide, what I mean is, I don't believe it is up to Mankind to decide. My spirituality leads me to believe that state sanctioned executions are against one of the commandments. So my conscience wrestles with the concept of whether it is a just thing or if it is flat-out murder. My faith doesn't allow me to tolerate the latter.

:applause: I wish I had said that, i kinda wanked out in another thread for fear of being flamed...CatWoman, you rock!:headbang:

I spoke my mind with mostly reasoning. Pure reasoning was ignored by those who so strongly desire to be an accomplice in murdering another human being. CatWoman told it like I wanted to. Watch the Mods lock this thread but keep that death loving thread by KC-25 going! I despise the thought of murder to punish murder. How far removed from civility.

(edited to add: referring to the thread getting locked)

I hope that it is not locked. However, I don't doubt it to be a distinct possibility in light of all the hateful blood-lust by those whom, I am sure, will derive great pleasure -- both privately and publicly -- at seeing this man murdered and their perverted, thoroughly debased, form of justice aptly administered.

Some of the posts of late are typical of the 'other' sites. Are they now acceptable here? Is this really a progressive/liberal site?

Wouldn't be surprised at all if the 'other' sites are cheering the 'Kill Tookie' threads/posts here. Must make them proud that so-called Dems/progressives/liberals are exhibiting such blood lust.

As much as I hate this, I suppose it is healthy in some ways. Maybe some of our views -- which I confess I believe to be MORE humane -- will rub off on them and make them think. You know, I used to be for the death penalty till one of my foster parents pointed something out to me -- IT DOES NOT DETER. Once I got that through my thick skull after doing hours of research I was divided on it. Then I lost a loved one a few years later to a murderer and rather than reverse to my former staunch stance for the death penalty, I instead rejected it all together. Partially out of the fact that it is not a deterrent, but mostly because I don't want anyone to have to feel the pain I feel/felt... ever.

Clikc it and the thread is on ignore.

in the spirit of free speech and whatnot. That is Bush bullshit. If you don't like what you see or hear, click the "X" and ignore it. Just swell.....

If you don't like it, take it up with him.

There is no free speech on DU. This is a privately owned web site and your freedom of speech ends where your post begins. This is a fact of life. Your speech is only protected from action by the government. By participating on DU, you agree to your speech here being censored.

If you can't have free speech on a DEMOCRATIC site, then where the blue fuck can you?

Posts are deleted when you do not follow the rules, thus you cannot say anything you choose.

It is somebody elses perogative to delete whatever I said. But I DO have free speech. Unfortunaetly so do you.

your speech is not free.

Also, get enough deleted posts, and you get a tombstone.

whatever happens after I SPEAK it is not my business.

your speech is not free.

Also, get enough deleted posts, and you get a tombstone.

no more text, Walt.

and the moderators are then FREE to delete it, or give you a tombstone.
You DID get to exercise your FREE Speeech first. If you wish to continue, you will observe the owner's wishes, or they will throw you OUT of THEIR house, but only AFTER you exercise your free speech.

perhaps you will tell me what I said that was objectionable. Maybe I won't say it anymore. But I won't promise. Once again, if there is ANY place for free speech, it would be a Democratic web site.

That was meant as a response to WS (post 62?) claiming that there was NO Free Speech on DU.
My Bad.

:shrug:

Tookie's ultimate masterpiece.

Maybe he will write a children's book on those sweethearts.

one he works everyday to reverse the damage done by them.

Don't let that effect your blood lust... and venom.

expressed my remorse for what I had done every time I was up before the Board.

I think Tookie will do more harm dead than alive but he can never be excused with a jailhouse statement of remorse.

Let him spend the rest of his life in solitary with his peaceful thoughts for companionship.

Screw him.

.

my oldest brother just got out of prison. He was locked up over drug charges.

i cry for him. He's having a hard time.

and I don't know what to do.

My oldest brother was shot 5 times in the back by an off duty policeman working security. That was in 1973, and I miss him every day of my life. I truly hope that your brother gets through this rough time, and that you will be guided to help him in whatever way he needs. Peace and love to you both.

I'll keep him and you in my thoughts. Keep givin'em hell. :hug:

He will NOT tell the police what he knows. That keeps him on the side of evil. So I do not believe his so called redemption is real.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

you must have been away the past couple of weeks.

:eyes:

You see Pro- Tookie, I see Pro State sponsored killing.

State sanctioned murders?

That's fucking disgusting.

it carries out justice.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Excellent!

:(

Just a red X

copy and paste the properties into your browser.

My ISP must be having a DNS issue currently.

:(

...do we all not have the blood of the innocents on our hands?

That is something I want to avoid at all costs, even if it means some horrible people
who do horrible thing don't get what you call "justice".

Justice = Killing?? I don't agree.

The state does make mistakes, justice is not blind, and letting the state make irreversible decisions is madness, sir.

BTW. Never a dull moment when you are on thread, Mr. Starr. Good evening.

Just don't call them a "Freeper", HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yay

so we don't have to fight it in Iraq.

Me like that!!

'Nuff said.

:thumbsup:

:toast:

this being a progressive site.

I have to say being pro-DP and aggressively so fail my PC test.

So what?

Just calling it as I see it...

Sadly true.

for a poltical strategy, so it's of little surprise to see them flop around on other issues too.

strategic value, i wonder if they ever if they have any consistant set of morals.
and the answer seems to be no. thanks for the reminder, bill.
more bullshit.

and then you have others who see morality or the lack of it as a way to win a game. Sure, politics is a high stakes game, but, then again, football is a billion dollar industry too. I see some people who talk about certain humanist perspectives as if those values are an old quarterback who needs to released or traded. Not me. I am a Dem because I believe in certain rights and tenets. I don't sacrifice those beliefs for nothing. If I have to I'll vote for a less than ideal candidate, as I thought Kerry was, but I won't all of a sudden flip-flop on women's rights or some vital issue like that because of a potential political strategy. At some point, a person should believe in value other than expediency.

i've seen it time and time again on a small scale with groups. 3/4 of the volunteers are women, yet somehow a guys climbs up top with a bullhorn and his "strategies" . too many of the ones who make the climb easily find it easy to discount the needs of those below, no, they want to sell this magic strategy. Ego like that can breed a certain indifference, i've found. i'm certainly seeing it here.

reactions to the Robert's nomination was telling. I was pretty disappointed in some of the ideas expressed at that time.

by men feeling comfy enough to take this gamble. women are hurting alreadyin this country by serious limits to their reproductive freedom, it ain't theoretical, it's life. and it ain't the first time. i make it a strict condition on any volunteering/ contributing i do now. no mamby pamby semi-appeasing the religous right works for me. we are 1/2 the popluation, not pawns in your stupid game. our lives are not moves for you to play later. they are to be respected now, and always. that's the strategy, or i'm calling your ass out in public as loudly as possible and asking where you stand. men have to be willing to stand with us, and for us as equals.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5560689


With all of the "Save Tookie" threads in the past week, maybe it's good that an opposing viewpoint is getting this much exposure.

OUCH!!!

Gynecological references are your idea of biting sarcasm?

:eyes:

*bows*

second, to repeat - you're full of it.

Committing Murder does not keep others from murdering.

So is the view that the death penalty is not murder.

They're both OPINIONS and, the last I checked, that was one of the things that was appealing about this place - the freedom to express opinions.

abortion.

I am of the opinion that neither the Death Penalty nor abortion are murder.

I am further of the opinion that killing an enemy on a battlefield during war is not murder.

The "it's not a deterrent" argument doesn't work. Jail isn't a deterrent either, apparently.

So by this standard do we abolish jail? I never get a response from anti-DP people on that question (at least one that is consistent with their original position).

three weeks ago, maybe two, no anti DP person responded....

since none of it works anyway.

...for being brave enough to say exactly what I was thinking.

:yourock:

I feel there's a dearth of "As an Anniversary Present Let's Throw Mark Chapman in the General Population at Attica for A Few Nights" threads.

Speak the truth. :smoke:

:applause:

YOU GOT MAIL!

But I'm on a roll her, Hon

:hi:

purpose is for revenge. What gives the state the right to murder someone? Take shrub, for example -- he actually mocked a woman about to be executed. Is that justice?? If it is, fuck justice. Sounds more like a cold hearted murder to me.

It's racist and it glorifies the very violence it expects to deter.
It legitimizes murder.

And there's nothing more absurd than putting death rowers on "suicide watch." How dare those people circumvent the state's power to kill!
:eyes:

Here's where I stand on some of the major issues, and I'll list them in order of importance (to me).

-For universal government-funded health care for everyone
-For strict environmental regulations
-For fighting al Qaeda
-Against the war in Iraq
-For tax cuts heavily weighted to the middle class
-Against tax cuts for the rich (I generally start this at 100k for a single person, and it goes up from there depending on the number of family members)
-For government funded job training and placement
-For unbridled free speech (against any and all forms of censorship)
-Against any religion in schools and other government organizations
-For the death penalty in clear-cut cases
-Abortion: I'm actually somewhat neutral on this one, don't really care either way, but to be honest I lean toward restrictions on it (and it never plays into my decision in elections)
-Against school vouchers
-Against gun control for most guns, would favor banning some
-For higher teacher pay (federal gov't should kick in some big $)
-I believe we should have instituted a sort of WPA program in the devastated hurricane areas, funded heavily by the fed gov't, and the people who live there should have been given FIRST priority to work in their area and earn money (this would have rebuilt the area, and provided jobs and income to those who lost everything)

That's enough now.

Anyone want to tell me if I'm liberal, conservative, moderate?

And you sound pretty liberal. :toast:

So you don't want to put any innocent people to death?? ME NETHER (what could be worse?).

The only way to do that is to have no death penalty. Have you heard, It's been posted
somewhere on the site. The GOV. lies and is corrupt. I think it's in LBN.:-)

There are clear cases. After reviewing this case (http://da.co.la.ca.us/pdf/swilliams.pdf), it's my opinion that the defendant in this case we're discussing is guilty. Numerous appellate rulings over the past quarter of a century have concurred with the original jury's finding as well.

which isn't a bad thing.

You speak for me. I am starting to really resent some of the people who are so adamant to see someone murdered. It makes me physically ill that they would call themselves progressives when they would regress to such barbaric "justice."

The Mods had damn well better be fair about keeping this thread up -- they allow the murder advocacy thread to thrive.

Good job, CatWoman. :yourock:

Looking at some of the 'other' posts of late, one might might think they accidently went to the 'other' site.

Progressives. Liberals. Hah! LYNCH MOB is what they are.

I prefer to call them blood thirsty savages divorced from reason and reality.

The death penalty accomplishes nothing but temporary relief to those who think they've achieved justice. In the long run does more damage because of what it does to the victim murdered in the name of the state's mistaken notion of "justice."

Lock them up for life, fine. But no way should the state have the power to kill, period.

On a different topic, I see quite a bit of ant-Semitism and Israel haters on board here. Even posts saying that Jews have no right no a homeland. Makes me :puke:

I hate fascists of all creeds, whether they be Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. But blaming Israel for the Iraq war and many other of the world's ills is just plain wrong. If Jews don't deserve Israel, then read up on history and learn that "Americans" don't deserve to live on this North American continent and go back to Europe or wherever your ancestors came from.

What I can not respect are the lies and misrepresentations that the Tookie Cookies have told on this forum in support of him. Telling the truth, even if it hurts part of the cause you support is one of our shared values. Because if one loses credibility, then you eventually lose everything else.

Even when the lies have been pointed out repeatedly, the Tookie Cookies ignored the corrections and continued to post the same lies. That is not engaging in debate or dialog, it is mere propagandizing.

Sadly,I'm often one of them.

I have been appalled lately by the lynch mob mentality rampant at DU of late.

To be tough on crime-
To be sure in my mind-
That I possess the truth-
That I have no ghosts from my youth-
That I'd never chew the bones-
No matter how hungry I got-
No matter how far from home-

I'm the Death Penalty Man-
Spread the word when you can-
It's over now, so easy for me to say-
Pull the plug, no more delay-
Now I've got the power in my hands-
As I pour away your precious sands-
As you are placed in the chair-

-Alone

As if it's just a penalty.



rec'd

There are a wide range of political opinions on the political spectrum. You can certainly be liberal, but not for the bleeding-heart "cause du jour," every time. Each situation has special circumstances, and balancing them is what makes the whole person.

"What's right," is SUBJECTIVE, and for you to claim that it's not, means that you are taking it upon yourself to make an authoritarian pronouncement of "what's right." Thanks, but I've had enough authoritarianism, from the right wing. Maybe THAT's the real problem: not that enough people aren't "lockstep," but that too many are.

Since this thread is about the death penalty, I should add that it's no good comparing the hypocrisy of pukes, with their war, and their "pro-life" stance, and being anti-death penalty and for freedom of choice. Only if you're a libertarian, or the Vatican, does any of that make sense (and only insofar as you do not beleive a fetus has rights). Otherwise, exceptions, rationalizations, arbitrary and subjective assignments and excuses are par for the course.

To say that a person should receive the death penalty for a crime is no more arbitrary than designating a fetus without human rights. You see what you want to see, and you make it fit into one worldview.

You're making too much sense and you haven't ONCE told another member "fuck you".

Seriously, I believe you're exactly right. We all have views that conflict and our justifications for those conflicts are subjective. We'd do well to keep that in mind.

if you ate regularly.

:rofl:

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

But thats just my personal opinion.

We've got dozens of Tookie worship threads, and a handful of punish tookie threads...and thats ok.

But I do find it ironic that the Tookie loyalist cry foul when someone post a different opinion.

And this -- besides KR-25's thread -- is the first I've posted in one of these. I'm no Tookie "loyalist," but I deeply HATE the idea of state sanctioned vengeance and murder. To so strongly call for his death is as surely as bad as putting the needle in his arm one's self.

You proably didnt realize it, but I wasnt addressing you specifically.

But make no mistake, Tookie has a devoted following, both on the streets and online.

Don't presume to speak to me in such a disrespectful and dismissive tone, Fescue. I was providing an alternative view to you, so that you might see that just because someone opposes this murder does not mean they believe in the innocence of this beast. I simply think he should be studied so as to lead to a way of getting rid of the factors that create men like him.

If there are those that support him, then perhaps it is they, and not you or me, who are in the right. I do not know. What I do know is that state enforced murder is immoral, barbaric, and without true purpose or use.

"Don't presume to speak to me in such a disrespectful and dismissive tone"




As for "I simply think he should be studied so as to lead to a way of getting rid of the factors that create men like him"

So putting him to death is bad because we should be using him as a lab rat instead?

Even if studying him is a viable option, we've had 25 years to do so and there is little else to learn...Sometimes evil is just evil.

Where did I use the term "lab rat"? You tell me where. I said he should be studied. How else is the sickness to be understood and cured if it is not looked up with an objective and probing eye?

I suppose you are more comfortable with another 25 years going by with more deaths -- to include his -- than to talk to this man, study him, and see what the root causes were of his deviant behavior. There is NOTHING to be learned in the last 25 years because there has been no sustained effort -- if any at all -- to study him. Furthermore, how do you KNOW that there is "little else to learn." What evil has the man wrought since he has been in jail? Tell me -- since you think there is "little else to learn."

I would rather have this man studied and endure a little discomfort than see more innocents killed by the likes of him that will surely come after the fact because NOTHING has been done so as to eliminate the factors that create and contribute to such people. I suppose you would rather see more innocents killed just because you have to see this man killed now? No, I think you more honorable than that, Fescue. Surely, there is no harm in keeping him alive the rest of his life than what has been done by keeping him alive the last 25 years. Tell me, am I to understand that that you see putting him to death as justice, but studying him with the aim of actually preventing more murders is somehow wrong? I would hope not.

But he denies his guilt. He refuses to work with police on inner workings of his murder gang.
He refuses to name and testify against fellow murderers.

He is unrepentent. He refuses to redeem himself.

The value in keeping this monster around is limited.

And at the same time, California justice has dictated that its time for him to face punishment.

On balance, its time to carry out justice.

I don't necessarily agree; however, you have your stance.

You failed to answer my questions however..

Either way, I will address your "points."

The inner workings of his "murder gang." Could you quantify that statement by telling me what you mean by "murder gang"? And if you mean the Crips, have you recently read up on how weak they've become as a result of the passage of time and the efforts of former members?

You say that "he is unrepentant." Has he said that he is not sorry? I seem to remember that he has said just that.

You say that "he refuses to redeem himself." What, pray tell, in your mind is the kind of redemption that he should practice? It seems that his other efforts are probably about the most he can do from a prison cell.

You say, "The value in keeping this monster around is limited." I suppose that even if one life could be saved by keeping him "around," you would not deem that valuable enough? Who knows how many lives have been saved and/or effective because of his actions since he was rightly locked away?

So, you believe that California justice is on-the-ball enough to not make any mistakes? Do you feel that the justice system should dictate or initiate further inquiries into what caused his behavior in the first place? You seem to hold an awful lot of confidence in the "California justice" system. What makes you so sure that they've done all that they can to understand this individual so that there are not more of him being created right now?

Do tell me something, what does, "On balance, it<'>s time to carry out justice" mean exactly?

I'd put the needle in his arm myself with a clear conscience.

I won't stoop to your level. You've bloodlust. I'll have none of it.

i guess it's easier to say things in the style of a keyboard commando . . .

The hate on this Board is really causing me to re think why I even come here.

I did not come here for my thoughts to be abused.
I could be abused in Freeperland or by listening to Rush everyday.
I could be abused by watching GW kill innocent people in Iraq.


I came here for my thoughts to be respected.

That does not mean that people have to agree with me, but I should not feel like I am being attack by the RIGHT WING.


Those that are Anti DP are not the enemy.
Those that are Pro DP are not my enemy either.

Why are we wasting precious time saying hateful things to each other?

People that wish to fill this board with hate need to wake up and realize that we all need "a little respect."


Tookie can live or die on the 13th and we will all have to work together as Democrats.

Shall you like to bathe in his blood afterwards?

his sentence means he will be released. At least from what I've seen. :eyes: They'd do well to educate themselves.

He will be in prison for LIFE.

I've seen some who say things like "I think he should die, NOT be freed!!" as though that's what people were arguing.

That shows how damn ignorant they are then. I'm somewhat saddened to hear of that level of stupidity on DU, but it is not the first time I have seen or heard tale of it.

Either you're for humanity and what's right, or you're not.
Who, prey tell, is deciding for us all what's "right"?

I see a lot of hatred and questionable character
You said it!

I may be for the death penalty, I may be against it, that's not even my issue at the moment - my issue instead is intolerance, hatred, bigotry, prejudice, being told what to think....well, you get the idea.

As a person who has considered suicide, death is not a penalty. Life can be a penalty or punishment. Life in jail more so. Killing someone for killing someone is so, well, primitive. Make them live, and perhaps they will regret their actions. If not, they will have been deprived of an "easy out." After all, everyone dies eventually, so where is the "punishment" in that.

Since he'll in effect be receiving Clemency.

but the death penalty in general. Life in jail can be so much more a punishment than simply killing a criminal. I did not say we had to be more than humane to murderers, but to descend to their level is not an answer.

I thought that went out back in the first grade.

In order for your comparison to work "it" would have to be the same in both cases.

And, as best I can tell, the state of California isn't planning on shooting and killing four people during a robbery spree.

And it doesn't count as murder.

In one case, a citizen took it upon himself to go on a robbery spree and murder four people.

In the other case, there's an established legal system that gave this defendant a preliminary hearing and a jury trial followed by about 25 years of appellate history before numerous courts, and now he's being considered for clemency.

Sorry, but I don't think these are comparable at all. I guess we'll have to disagree here.

Right.

Killing is wrong! You are a criminal! So...we're going to kill you!

If you believe those two examples are the same, more power to ya. Thanks for this enlightening debate.

Have a good evening.

:hi:

:bravo:

And that is why he finds himself "suddenly" in this situation.

Please. An elementary school teacher wouldn't accept that as an excuse for anything.

and thousands of time by proxy.

Ok so Sadaam tortured people. Let's torture him!

Its really a simple matter of justice delayed.

But hey, at least you're honest.

I just know what the people of California have voted for.

You'll just have to learn to accept that your hero will soon meet justice.

useless! Awww...too bad.


I am against the Death Penalty in all cases. ALL cases. Period.

He really appreciates his loyalist trying to save him.

Go ahead. Search the archives and find me declaring Tookie's innocence! Find me claiming him to be my hero!

And here I thought you were a great debater

(I did find your last minute qualification cute though)


<snicker>

into a hole by making assumptions.

You are posting to defend Tookie against death.


I'll give you a chance to save face.

If you want Tookie to face the DP say so.

If you want Tookie to receive Clemency say so.

Tookie is depending on you!

and speeds away.

That's what you get for being purposely obtuse.


I am against the death penalty in all cases. ALLLLLLLL cases. So I would like to see Tookie get life in prison. But not because he is Tookie. I don't believe he is innocent, but I don't know. But even if he as guilty as hell, nasty as sin, hated kids, I'd STILL want him to have life in prison. I don't know the man, and don't particularly like him or dislike him. But he's human. And Im not about to sink to the level of murderer because he did it first.

If that method suits you better.

That you tried to say Tookie was my hero even if you weren't sure it was correct to bolster your own argument.

But...nah.

I cant imagine why.

Against the death penalty in all cases...

You're funny though. You say Im a Tookie fan, when I say Im not, you accuse me of "distancing myself".

Jesus christ.

Then bully for you.

Then you accuse him of avoiding you.

So yes, I'll insult your cowardly behavior.

that we have been spammed with over and over.

...that had him say that he was NOT a tookie "supporter" but that he was merely was anti-DP.

You inability to differentiate the two is shocking.

you cant seperate the two.

If that makes you uncomfortable, you should evaluate why you feel that way.

Because I am NOT SUPPORTING CONVICTED KILLERS.

Jesus tap dancing christ, did you take stupid pills today? You can't honestly tell me I support Tookie's action and Tookie himself just because I want him to rot away his life in jail, can you?

If you are working to save Tookie and his peers from the death penality, you absolutly defend him.

Do you defend his crimes? Of course not. Do you defend the man? Of course.

Tookie, his lawyer and his publicist last best hope is folks like yourself saving him from the DP. This is defending him boiled down to its essence.

Nor am I in that group that you label his "supporters".

I cannot support the DP. I reject it as form of justice. So do understand when I take offense when you tell me I support people like him.

a bit passive for something you seem to feel passionate about. no?

...abolish the DP.

You seem to be hung up on highly simplistic thinking.

Tookie is the case that is easy to argue against, but you still have to argue it, even though you personally feel he is a monster. I will not let my emotions rule me.