Keith Olberman at perhaps his worst- Kennedy assassination

Gary Mack pushing the Oswald story and Keith admitting to buying the Oswald Myth. Even going so far as to concur with Posner. :puke:

The story was something about the fenceposts from the grassy knoll.

And his question about Oswald working in the depository before the parade route was announced ... well, sheesh, Oswald's background with Naval Intelligence, CIA and FBI could certainly have something to do with that. Especially since the Dallas Mayor, Earl Cabell, was party to changing the parade route at the last minute to go by the TSBD -- and Cabell was the brother of Gen. Cabell who JFK fired in 1961 from the #2 position at the CIA following the Bay of Pigs debacle.

It blows me away. Posner with his johnny come lately tale.
I'll have to check on this Gary Mack- I don't remember him from the tons of reporters/ commentators.

Then I saw Oliver Stone's "JFK" and decided it had to have been Oswald. The smell of raw bullshit was much too heavy in my nostrils to continue believing it.

KO is a smart guy and I respect his opinions even when he differs with me. If he doesn't belief that JFK was killed by __insert favorite thugs here__ then that's fine with me.

When I finally got around to reading some of the conspiracy books, the reasoning was so BAD I just had to wonder. Is this the best they could come up with? Apparently. I'm going with Oswald until someone comes up with some solid argument for an alternative theory. What I read is along the: If A = B, then A = C lines.

...House Select Committee on Assassinations, and the releases of information from the National Archives as ordered by President Clinton.

I'm still surprised to find any self-professed thinking person hasn't spent some time going over that information to make an informed decision about the JFK assassination instead of swallowing the swill known as the Warren Commission Report.

The late Harold Weisberg, famed early researcher on the JFK assassination, was the first to uncover Oswald's "Crypto" clearance which he held while a Marine radar operator assigned to the CIA's U-2 program operating out of the Atsugi Air Force Base in Atsugi, Japan. Weisberg wrote several excellent self-published volumes on the JFK assassination including the "Whitewash" series, "Post Mortem" which described the autopsy in detail including the notes the autopsist burned in his fireplace before turning in a second set of notes, and "Never Again". In another volume, Weisberg detailed Oswald's activities in New Orleans to include the so-called pro-Castro handbills that had been printed by a CIA front company, his relationship as a paid informer for the FBI, and his relationships with Clay Shaw and David Ferrie.

In a personal phone conversation I had with Mr. Weisberg before his death, he told me that Posner had asked to review Weisberg's extensive files for a book he was writing on the JFK assassination. Posner spent all of an hour in Weisberg's basement doing little more than jotting notes on the labels attached to Weisberg's filing cabinets. Weisberg later wrote a book entitled "Case Open" where he completely destroyed Posner's piece of trash known as "Case Closed".

According to documents uncovered by U. S. Army Major John Newman, and enclosed in his book entitled "Oswald and the CIA", Oswald had a CIA 201 Personnel File which clearly indicated that Oswald was an employee of the Agency.

Oswald's so-called "defection" to the USSR should also raise a TON of red flags for anyone serious about learning the truth about the JFK assassination. Despite his involvement with the U-2 program he was allowed to state to U. S. embassy personnel in Helsinki, Finland, that he was defecting to the USSR. He then passed easily into the USSR and went to work in a radio factory in Minsk. Upon his return to the U. S., we are told that he was allowed to bring his Soviet-born wife and daughter into the country with hardly a question being asked.

As to the assassination itself, the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle allegedly fired by Oswald was in poor shape as testified to by FBI firarms experts. The scope was loose and had to be shimmed to be aligned properly, the trigger movement was unpredictable, and the bolt-action tended to stick causing delays in firing. The FBI firearm experts refused to fire the rifle until it was repaired. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for the weapon the Warren Commission claimed was the JFK murder weapon, is it?

We are also asked to believe the so-called "Single-Bullet Theory", that the nearly pristine round allegedly fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano created four wounds of entrance and three wounds of exit in two grown men without any discernable damage to that round. The major piece of evidence/testimony that destroys the "Single-Bullet Theory" is the fact that the wound in the front of JFK's neck just below the Adam's Apple was one of ENTRANCE, a wound that was used as the starting point for JFK's traceotomy as testified to by Parkland medical personnel. The holes in JFK's necktie and collar were actually slits caused by the scalpel used by Parkland personnel to remove JFK's shirt and tie...they were NOT caused by a bullet exiting the front of JFK's neck as stated by the Warren Commission Report.

Even more evidence found with the presidential limo refutes the official story. Photos were taken of the limo before it was shipped off to Detroit to be completely rebuilt by order of LBJ. Those photos clearly show a hole in the passenger side of the windshield, and a circular dent in the fron windshield frame above the rear-view mirror. If Oswald was allegedly the only assassin, where did those defects in the limo come from?

I could go on, but I really have to question why, or how, anyone would allow themselves to be duped by the official Warren Commission Report.

Thank you for coming into the thread to set a few things straight.
It is so difficult to keep all aspects of this case in line. I have a good base knowledge of the case, but the detractors always want to argue specifics and play gotcha.
You are like the cavalry! :patriot:

the same person/group who got Oswald that job also had to be the one that planned the route. That his prior belief in how it might have happened was thrown off by that timing.
He didn't say that was impossible that someone had done both.

JFK II: The Bush Connection
A thorough, documented, criminal indictment of George Herbert Walker Bush, establishing beyond a reasonable doubt his guilt as a supervisor in the conspiracy to assassinate John F. Kennedy. This is the best documentary about the murder of JFK that I've ever seen. This is above and beyond anything you've ever seen on the subject. The evidence is here and it is conclusive. View Video Here http://jackblood.netfirms.com/home/multimedia.shtml

The best documentary on JFK I ever seen..also, dial-up warning it took me 6 hours. It's a 93 minute video.
Well worth it !!!

:thumbsup:

your opinions? I beleive what see. My eyes weren't lying. Poppy Bush and his (CIA) buddies murdered JFK.
Let me know what you think....

On dialup, so I'll get back to you next week- joking. :)

Shooting from the hip, I always thought it was Nixon somehow. Like Garrison would say, you have to look at who benefited. Tricky Dick was always in the background looking at Kennedy with one of those power hungry looks. Of course one can not leave out Johnson who has some role in the conspiracy and subsequent coverup. It was only in the last 5 years that I learned more that places the tentacles of the crime family on the scene. The background players who really benefited have taken over the country and loaded us down with gibberish to sidetrack any thorough investigation.
Current conspiracies that are unsolved include the election debacles and 911.

I smell some rats!

If there's no conspiracy, how come the bastards who now rule America have such strong connections to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy?

Case in point: George Herbert Walker Bush:



More info:
http://www.internetpirate.com/bush.htm

That's a very important and well-made documentary video. Thank you for the link, DemInDistress!

after watching JFK II ,the Bush Connection I can die in peace knowing Poppy Bush (CIA) and the Plumbers,
E.Howard Hunt,Sturgis,Nixon went,a female companion and others killed JFK. That video is awesome all one needs to do is connect the dots. Why didn't Oliver Stone see this? If you watched it fish, then I accomplished a goal. I see no conspiracy theories here. That bullet hole in the presidential limo, where did it come from? that bullet hole in the windshield frame, where did that come from? shots hit the grass areas,concrete,and other stray shots missed JFK. Plus Poppy had a reason, look how connected that Bush Crime Family is. Their family history reads like a traitors nest ready to reap billions all the while in control of the power. I'd like to see a news corp. like "Frontline" do an investigation using this video. would raise some hairs...

Secret Government. Big Oil. Narcotics. Precious Metals. Money laundering. The Mafia. NAZIs. Eugenics.

The name Bush is affixed to each of those subjects.

We must make Mr. and Mrs. America aware.

We must see those responsible indicted, tried, convicted and punished.

Then we can go in peace.

I can't believe how many posts here are buying the official story and claim to be experts.

It seems there is some new push for the last few years to get everyone believing it was Oswald. I guess it is the last ditch effort as more evidence is lost and the misinformation has througyly trumped the truth.

Thank You!
:applause:

It's difficult to understand how people who want to knock the socks off of Bush don't believe the rise of the right is tied to what happened in Dallas.

Let them believe what they want, but the truth is the assassination was the result of a conspiracy.

Lone nut gunmen don't have the authority to change the motorcade route to pass by the very spot the lone nut got a job two weeks earlier; the office and ability to alter the evidence in the case; and manipulate the press coverage from the beginning to the present day, helping cover up the truth for 42 years. Only those who've successfully staged a coup d'etat can do all that.

Let's do a round-up on these traitorous turds. Who are those who don't want to investigate helping?

I can't believe the number of lone nut trumpeters that are here. With 2/3 of the population believing there was a conspiracy you would think we would be at around 90% here at good old DU.
Apparently the media droning has gotten to many and I can only feel sorry for them.

They want the truth, they can't handle the truth!
I was watching the video from above and it quit part way through. Now my :tinfoilhat: is really pulsing. MSN helping to cancel the truth. :rofl:

Is it already here somewhere?

Source:

http://www.internetpirate.com/bush.htm

Translation of the above 29 November 1963 FBI/Bush memo, without all the tags and mimeograph blots:





Translations on 22 November 1963 FBI/Bush memo:

is spinning after watching this documentary. :crazy: Thanks for the link, btw.

I'm glad I didn't turn it off during the music video intermission.

I don't know, but mediaplayer is not doing it for me.
I'm looking around, but may have to change players.
What is everyone else using and does it still download?

Here is Octafish's thread from last month:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5456280

Great video from what I have seen though.

I get the impression he thinks the case is unresolved because of evidence tampering, and finds himself tipping over to Oswald for lack of good proof otherwise. Like most Americans, he is waiting for any final confirmation.

Won't it be great when time travel is invented? We'll go back and resolve all these mysteries finally.

heh

in the Posner book

thatif it was a larger conspiracy, then they planted Oswald in the Book Depository and he took that job long before the Kennedy trip, much less the motorcade route, was planned

This is an absurd issue for numerous reasons, but two in particular:

1. who says Oswald was always part of the plot, if he was in on the plot at all? He could have been selected as a patsy once the route was known.

2. it could easily be coincidence that the route went by his place of employment. If he was in on the plot and a different route was selected, he could have been instructed to phone in sick and go wherever the route went.

THAT is why I say KO is being an idiot.

if time travel were available, would you go back and change what happened?

to the obvious?

The selling of the fence posts from the grassy knoll is indeed ridiculous, but those who claim conspiracy are most certainly looking in the right direction.

Keith, if you are reading this... WAKE UP!!!!!!!! The Posner book is part of the whitewash, as is everything aired by the Discovery Channel regarding the assassination. Did a little deeper and you'll understand that Oswald really was the patsy he claimed to be.
Aside from the JFK2 movie, check out Mark Lane's "Plausible Denial". And of course, Octafish's BFEE threads. :wow:

throw you smart, logical people off track. They coached him up for years on being a smart, respected guy so people like you would respect him, yet the REAL reason for his existence was to TRY to throw you off track by then having him say Lee Oswald killed Kennedy......

Congrats to you for not falling for the plot. You're just too smart and......LOGICAL..... to fall for the planted..... Keith Oberman.... red herring attempt.

and went straight to the company line.
:)

that Oswald didn't shoot JFK. I respect anyone who doesn't spout it.

nt

...and/or that presented by Marquette's Professor McAdams on the Internet in support of the Warren Commission? Or are you referring to the bogus case presented by the Warren Commission Report?

You don't have "tons" of anything, IMHO.

and I was shocked that so many people here buy into it being a conspiracy.

I do not. Obviously. And was glad to hear KO has see through the blather.

and Keith can buy into whatever he wants. He went down a few notches in my book er opinion.

the grassy knoll doesn't work because the shot would have come from the side. And how did they get Oswald hired at the book depository before anyone in the world knew what route JFK would take that day?

So many flaws, so little time. The conspiracy theory has more holes than does the single gunman theory.

I was a criminal defense attorney for many years. In every case I worked on, EVERY CASE, there was a piece of evidence that just didn't fit. I learned then that you have to take the facts as you find them, sift through them and then come up with the most logical answer. That always meant you had to ignore something. The piece that didn't fit. You just find the way that answers the most questions.

Oswald did it answers the most questions. Even if not all of the pieces fit.

And...in the last analysis? It makes much more sense to move on and live in the here and now.

but I have an uncanny ability to sense bs. The Warren Commission was a whitwash.
I have studied a lot of this over the years and was 4 when it happened. I'll never buy the official line, sorry. You can move on if you wish.

Does the Select Committee on Assasinations hold any weight with you. It's findings include that a conspiracy was very possible.

:hi:

Almost all of the witnesses said shots were fired from the knoll, not from the depository.

That's probably why everybody went to the knoll to see who fired the shots.

Actually only a few said the shots came from the grassy knoll. The entrance wound was on the back of his head and indicated a trajectory consistent from Oswald's location. Their was no wound that would have had the trajectory needed to have originated from the knoll. His body fell back when shot which would seem to indicate the bullet came from in front of the car however it's a well known fact that body's fall all kinds of directions when shot and often towards the direction the bullet came from. This is due to muscle contractions. Sorry all the investigatory programs I have watched on TV back up the Warren commission very convincingly.

I'm sure they do back it up.

That is what they are profiting from, they would have been run out of town on a rail if they ever told the truth.

The horror of it all is that It is NOT the true story and most of America knows it is not. That is why Poppy Bush pushed so hard to keep the myth alive about JFK by putting his no good son illegally in office to keep the tracks clean.

I recall buying it hook, line and sinker until I was able to look at all the documents that Octofish and others put out there.

Her latest memo about the "info" provided by GHWB to the FBI, polished it off for me. Central character GHWB. If you track his deeds from that day to this, it is clear to me that "fat meat is not greasy" on what we have been told.

Your point:
"Sorry all the investigatory programs I have watched on TV back up the Warren commission very convincingly."

perhaps the conspirators would have made plans for various parade routes? :shrug:

the inability of many people too accept..... parsimony. When confronted with with different "explanations".... always accept the most simple one.

Re "Them" getting Oswald at the Book Depository.... I think he got the job there prior to Kennedy's Dallas trip even being planned.

Too me, this issue distinguishes morons from non-morons. It's a great barometer, IMO.

at the book depository before anyone in the world knew what route JFK would take that day?

If there was a conspiracy it would have to be what Keith said... the same people who got him hired had say in the final route.

N/t

...to be duped by a government that has lied to the American people every chance they get? I'm also suprised that a self-professed "criminal defense attorney" would allow themselves to accept the official version of any case, much less the JFK murder case. Sad to say, but you remind me a bit of Arlen Specter, the so-called "inventer" of the "Single-Bullet Theory".

Additionally, without a clear picture of how things really happened in the past, we'll never have a clear picture of how to proceed in the future.

Badgeman? Way too small to be a person. Storm drain? Shot is physically impossible due to line of sight. Railroad overpass? Only if someone has a cloaking device. Entry wound in the *front* of Kennedy's neck? Only if Gov. Connely shot him. Other grassy knoll shooter? See cloaking device. Either that or he's The Flash.

I don't know what drives the hardcore conspiracy people, but they will keep on trying, completely blind to what a lot of their scenarios imply.

It makes the most sense.

It's easy to believe a conspiracy when you limit yourself to one, biased source. Quite simply, in summary, the physics just don't work for the entry and exit wounds to be from anywhere but the book despository. It has to be from behind because of the nature of the entry and exit wounds. As someone who has shot animals, I know what entry and exit wounds look like. You can logically deduce where from behind it was not since there were throngs of people in most locations that could also be possible.

In the chaos and confusion of that day, many mistakes were made in the autopsy on Kennedy's body. But the medical photos and X-rays confirm that there were only two shots that struck the president and both came from the rear. Four separate government investigations have so concluded. The last one, the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1978-79, had the largest forensics panel reexamining all the evidence.

As for the president's backwards head movement, the second and fatal shot -- as seen in the enhanced Zapruder film -- makes it appear that the shot came from the front. But experts explain that two things are happening in that split second. As the fatal bullet destroys the president's brain, he goes into a neuromuscular seizure and his body starts to stiffen up. At the same time that the bullet wound explodes out the right front side of his head, and as that blood and brain tissue moves out, it forces him in the opposite direction, the jet effect, back and to the left, violently.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/conspiracy/

and the brain is missing.
Hmm.
I have not limited my reading and I've shot animals before too.
Explain why Jackie was out on the trunk picking up brain and skullcap?

Notice the explosion in the front of the skull? That is consistent with an exit wound, not an entry wound. Also, if you look at this:

You see that his head explodes in grand fashion while of course the vehicle is moving forward. The brain matter sprayed all over the place and some is clearly seen landing on the trunk. The vast majority explodes forward.

...established ballistics theories. The forward momentum of the bullet impacting JFK in his right-front skull drives JFK's head backwards and to the left. Zapruder was standing at a location that was nearly 90 degrees perpendicular to the limo when he filmed the event, but a shooter behind the fence on the Grassy Knoll, to the right of Zapruder, would have been at the correct angle to shoot JFK as noted by JFK's reaction seen in the Zapruder film. The exit hole from this wound was in the right rear of JFK's skull, a would clearly seen by the Parkland medical personnel. Additionally, several other films have surfaced since the Warren Commission was written, and they verify that a piece of JFK's skull was thrown backwards onto the driver's side of the trunk, a piece that Jackie retrieved and later handed over to the medical personnel at Parkland.

You also must not know about the testimony of the medical personnel at Parkland Hospital who stated in their sworn statements that the wound in the front of JFK's neck below the Adam's Apple was one of ENTRANCE, not exit. That is also reinforced by the fact that the holes in JFK's necktie and collar were SLITS caused by the medical personnel who removed JFK's shirt and tie by cutting them loose with a scalpel.

You claim you've studied the JFK assassination, but evidently you haven't gone very far in your self-proclaimed search for the truth.

under every rock. And who would conspire with a Lee Oswald? They guy was acomplete moron who could barely read.

But........ some people would observe an acorn falling off a tree and rather than ascribing it's fall due to gravity and the Fall season they would think that a group of meanies shot a ray gun at the acorn's stem and caused it's fall........... Logic at work.

because, in the end, he's gonna die before a trial.

The fact that Oswald dies, to me, is the ultimate flashing light - and why I will never accept that he worked alone.

Is that why he worked in the U2 program? And hung around with cia types?

The govt would have us believe there's terrorist under every rock - and that they will protect us from those illusive enemies, provided we sacrifice our freedom.

to do the right thing, in spite of some much evidence to the contrary.

Back 6 pages on Google is the boycot of the 6th Floor.
http://www.prouty.org/boycott.html

Some time ago I had submitted the Col. Prouty CD-ROM to the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas, for review. To make a long story short, I have been told that because it does not conform to the "Lone Assassin" theory they will not look at it. (or stock it in the bookstore).

Gary Hack who represents the Sixth Floor will not even look at the CD-ROM.! He has not replied other than his repeated, "you will be notified if we accept it"

I have since found out the Sixth Floor has an agenda to support the Warren Report. I was not aware of this myself and was very surprised. This is more evidence of the continual cover-up.

I suggest and urge that anyone thinking of visiting the Sixth Floor Museum in the near future to decline. At least until they change from the official "Lone Assassin theory" that Lee Oswald shot JFK, and at least show more that one side to the story. For those of you active on internet newsgroups, I hope that the topic be can be brought up and discussed especially for anyone going to Dallas this year

---

I used to believe in a conspiracy. But study and logic convinced me otherwise. Analysis of bullet fragments. Modelling of trajectories. Oswald's own behaviour and history of violence and mental instability. ALL of these point to shots from the 6th floor of the book depository, to Oswald's rifle as the weapon used, and to Oswald himself as the probable assassin.

The conspiracy theories, on the other hand, are mostly based on selectively interpreted and misinterpreted bits of data that are NOT evidentiary, on misunderstanding or distortion of the evidence, and on contradictory and unreliable eyewitness testimony.

but all that I have seen would turn your whole post around. The evidence does not support the magic bullet theory no matter how many Jenning's specials and computers simulate it. There were more fragments found in the bodies than what was missing from the magic bullet.
Oswalds history was all doctored. Looking back at the old evidence makes it look like a cheap photoshop of him with the gun. One would have to ignore his pro/anti Castro positions and the fact that he claimed to be a patsy. Those words stand out for a man who was not allowed to have a fair trial.

Why did the president's brain disappear and could not be cross sectioned. I believe that the autopsy was a fraud and the real entry and exit points were obliterated.

The Oswald theories are based on selectively interpreted and misinterpreted bits of data.
Eye witnesses, heck most of them are dead or otherwise scared quiet.

:hi:

amen.

Analysis of the fragments in Connally's wrist shows they came from the so-called "magic" bullet, which passed mostly through soft tissue. And Connally was seated inboard and below Kennedy, not directly in front (as usually incorrectly shown by conspiracists), which means that the trajectory works for one bullet to have actually wounded both men as believed.

Analysis of the OTHER fragments recovered (from Kennedy's head wound and the floor of the car) reveals they came from ANOTHER bullet, which can only be the fatal headshot. This is something that those claiming "more bullet fragments found than missing" overlook or deliberately ignore.

It's the conspiracy theories that the evidence doesn't support (unless it's misinterpreted to do so).

I love this sentence:

"This is something that those claiming "more bullet fragments found than missing" overlook or deliberately ignore."

The answer is clearly 'deliberately ignore.'

People believing in the Conspiracy Theory's seem to always conveniently forget the scientific facts from NAS and other scientific studies when they go against their nutty theory. Thats the problem with people reading a couple of conspiracy books that cloud the truth and brain wash people until they wont even take the time to look at what SCIENCE and not people trying to make money off books have found.

nt

On the Warren Commission:

"Go back to bed America, your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed America, you government is in control again."

More Hicks on the Kennedy Assassination:

"Talking about Kennedy, people come up to me: 'Bill, quit talking about Kennedy, man. Let it go. It's a long time ago - just forget about it.' And I'm like alright, then don't bring up Jesus to me. As long as we're talking shelf life here."

"I was just down in Dallas. You know you can go down there to Dealey Plaza where Kennedy was assassinated. And you can actually go to the sixth floor of the School Book Depository. They have the window set up to look exactly like it did on that day. And it's really accurate, you know, 'cause Oswald's not in it."

"Some Christians wear crosses on their necklaces. You think when Jesus comes back he wants to see another fucking cross? That's sorta like Jackie Onassis wearing a sniper-rifle pendant." (paraphrased poorly) but i do love Hicks.

Keith, honey? Three words: Magic. Bullet. Theory. Emphasis on that first one. Think real hard. Maybe...read the fucking book again. With your BRAIN ON.

Basically, these will penetrate all light bone and tissue in their path while suffering very little if any damage. The penetration and lack of damage to bullet with Oswald's second shot isn't very surprising.

The shot to Kennedy's head blew apart - along with the front of his skull - because the back of the skull is actually pretty heavy bone and more than enough to crack open a copper bullet jacket. It then spawled through his skull and blew out much of the right front side in grand fashion.

One link that tells about him:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/112404_kennedy_insult.shtml

clip-
So we have George H. W. Bush telling the FBI that he did not know the source of the information but knew that a John Bircher named James Parrott, who was the same age as Lee Harvey Oswald (24), wanted to kill President Kennedy in Houston. Bush did not know much about Parrott but gave the name of two Republican Party officials in Houston. Of course, Bush's Zapata Off-Shore Drilling Company had been a CIA front since 1960 and had supplied the Bay of Pigs invasion (code named "Zapata") force with two of his company's ex-U.S. Navy landing craft, renamed the "Barbara J" and the "Houston." In any case, Bush's phone call to the FBI was a false lead, and Parrott was cleared. However, Bush's phone call creates more questions about him than about Parrott. First of all, there is no evidence that Bush was in Tyler when Kennedy was shot. There was no Caller ID in those days that would have allowed Special Agent Kitchel to know, for a fact, that Bush was calling from Tyler. Bush's wife, Barbara, claimed he was in Tyler but Bush once said he may have been in Port-au-Prince, Haiti that day. But Bush himself admits to the FBI that he was booked into the Sheraton Hotel in Dallas on November 22.



Good background article and why would they fence off the Kennedy Memorial? This was a year ago.

One more quote from JFK


JFK inaugural address January 20, 1961

... theory, but if you think Oswald was a lone assassin you are living in some kind of dream world.

You can only stack up so many coincidences and oh-gees before a story becomes simply unbelievable.

has cost your credibility very much with me.
Thanks for playing and sorry to have to present it to you this way.
You need to review the real events.

Jesus. It's still 2005, right? 'Cause it feels like 1968 on this board at the moment.

I felt like the world was closing in on me.
I'm going to write Keith. He is helping to delude more people with his own delusion.
Many here are really shocking me. It's Posner, Pristine Bullet, Oswald. :rofl:

:pals:

You have yet to post any credible evidence based on real science. Either give some real evidence that has been tested or do the world a favor and stop posting misinformation.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/conspiracy/acoustics.html

4 times at that.


:think:

:rofl:

It's you against the NAS. I will take them.

As you know, "Proof" is hard to come by. It has been 42 years and most of the good evidence was buried on that fateful day. Like windshield, blood spatters, brains, etc.
I guess your looking for something to refute your beloved Posner and the NAS.
I'm not saying this is the definitive piece but here is something.
http://www.jfk-fr.com/fil_423-0.php

clip-
On the basis of these and other problems, some researchers reject the work of the HSCA's acoustical experts and instead accept the findings of a special panel of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS). But there are problems with relying on the Academy's work. Not only did the NAS panel members fail to examine items of evidence that supported the HSCA's findings, but they conducted their work in secret and would not make their raw materials available so other experts could try to duplicate their work. In addition, the NAS scholars utilized a faulty transcript of the dictabelt recording, and, according to W. Anthony Marsh and others, found it necessary to manipulate the times of the transmissions on the tape, in one case by almost a minute, in order to reject the HSCA's conclusions (Marsh). On the other hand, critics of the acoustical evidence claim that the NAS study is superior to that of the Select Committee's, and that the NAS panel members were just as qualified as the HSCA's scientists, if not more so. It should be pointed out, however, that the NAS panel members were NOT acoustical experts.


not accoustical experts -hmm

clip-
Gary Cornwell, the former deputy chief counsel for the HSCA, likewise takes issue with the NAS study. Note: Cornwell refers to the NAS panel and report as the NRC panel and report, since the panel was actually assembled by the National Research Council (NRC), whose members are drawn from the NAS. Says Cornwell,

The findings of Bolt, Beranek and Newman--like almost everything in the Kennedy case--have subsequently been questioned by the FBI, and by a panel assembled by the National Research Council (whose members are drawn from the Councils of the National Academy of Sciences. . . .). According to a "Notice" on the first page of the NRC report, the committee that studied the BBN findings "was chosen for their special competence and with regard for appropriate balance"--not because they were acoustics experts, which they were not.

I personally found it interesting not only that the NRC found that it had conclusively disproved the Select Committee's acoustical report and that there was no need for further study, but also that--remarkably, and just as with the findings of the Warren Commission--there was not a single dissent among any of the panel's members. (It may or may not also be relevant that, among the most vocal of the panel's members was a scientist who, before joining the panel and reviewing the acoustical study in detail, had taken strong positions in support of the Warren Commission's findings. . . .)

"your beloved Posner"???? I could care less about Posner I quoted the NSA. Posner is only mentioned briefly in the Frontline articles.



You are bringing up the first NAS study. You forgot to mention they have a new one:

"We did find some errors in our original (1982) report, but our errors were small errors that did not change our conclusions," says Ramsey. "In Thomas's report we found significant errors which clearly reverse the findings of his report."


"Ramsey says the rebuttal of Thomas' report will be published in the same journal, Science and Justice, as early as January 2004. "There is a little more tightening to do," says Ramsey. "We are a bit worried that the report may be too technical for this publication, but we'll see."



Also, that article is full of shit and it's eight years old:

Revised and Expanded on 11/25/98.

First of all those attacking the Nat. Academy of Sciences findings are probably in the same league as the Religious Right who has attacked the NAS frequently about their findings on Evolution.

All that nutty article is designed to do is muddy the waters and sell BS to anyone who will believe it. The latest NAS study was completed last year. Come up with some current data not something eight years old. I will take Frontline which gives both sides over a German conspiracy websites BS any day.


Sorry, try again.

There really is a lot of new information coming out, yeah right. :crazy:
The article calls into question the NAS and therefore I stand by it.

In case you missed it - not accoustical experts.

Keep moving the goal posts - the article you keep posting says this-

Ramsey says the rebuttal of Thomas' report will be published in the same journal, Science and Justice, as early as January 2004. "There is a little more tightening to do," says Ramsey. "We are a bit worried that the report may be too technical for this publication, but we'll see."

So where is their new tightened up story then?

It is not all about accoustics to me anyway. It is about lies and distortion. Let's talk about David Ferie or Clay Shaw or the Tramps.

Didn't Peter Jennings do a one hour show on the assassination, and spent a good time on the acoustics? I am no expert but the jist of it was that The motorcycle with the mike open had to be in a certain position to show there were more than three shots. Pictures found show that the motorcycle was 90 yards behind where it had to be to support four shots. Something about echoes, I believe.

... I'm not talking about the ones you are talking about. But I'm totally disinterested in a debate about it, its all be hashed out a million times.

I am just reiterating what the Nat. Academy of Sciences has shown. I went into this with an open mind and looked at both sides. It's clear that based on REAL science and not information meant to sell books Keith Olberman is probably right. When I say probably I mean a 95% chance of being right.

It has become a cottage industry...making money for many people. If the "mystery" were suddenly solved alot of people would be out an awful lot of money!

An Evil Cabal has taken over the US and many are still looking for the truth.

The part about money is completely right, the criminals would lose much of their war bucks and all of their power.

If you like living under this regime, then welcome to it.

it seems like the Nazis have taken over.

nt

It all makes sense now... :wow:

Mr. Posner's book is replete with so many errors, omissions, and inaccuracies that he could give Ann Coulter a run for her money on written dishonesty. A good start to the debunking of his work of fiction, "Case Closed," can be found here: http://www.assassinationweb.com/ecc.htm

As for fanciful "computer analysis and re-enactment" from the PBS Frontline piece, the old adage still applies, "Garbage in, Garbage Out."

At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_bullet_theory , there's an objective look at the most magical bullet ever fired.

The pristine bullet could not have done that much damage and still look like that. Amazing that Jack Ruby found it on the stretcher.

From the Wikipedia link:
clip-
After this "single bullet" theorized trajectory, causing seven wounds while breaking two major body bones and depositing lead fragments along the way, the bullet appears nearly pristine. Its tip was still perfectly round (a small slice was later removed for analysis testing). Its body is flattened and curved on only one of six rotated views side. It has visible rifling barrel grooves.

in my mind is the bullet hole in the windshield. I don't recall the exact information, but I think the limo was rushed somewhere to Michigan to have a new windshield put in. The man who worked on it was interviewed and stated it was there for that reason.

The downward trajectory from the TSBD could not explain the bullet in the windshield.

Fix the limo and wipe up all the blood and brains. What kind of a crime scene investigation is that. That spells cover up loud and clear.
Step 2 - kill the witnesses
Step 3 - pull the wool over the public's eyes

The windshield was struck by a fragment or fragments from the bullet that killed Kennedy, which massively fragmented on impact with the dense bone of his skull. This fragment cracked but did not penetrate the windshield of the vehicle, which was slightly pushed OUTWARD from the impact, and there were lead traces on the INSIDE, not the outside. A shot from the front couldn't have done that.

Which is what everything in my previous posts is based on. If you find evidence and scientific analysis "not credible", then I can only infer that you reject anything that doesn't line up with what you want to believe.

...statements made by people that had actually seen the damage to the limo.

You're welcome to your opinion about the physical evidence, but it is by no means definitive. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be using the Warren Commission Report as your source, even though subsequent uncovered documents and evidence makes the WCR look exactly like the whitewash it was intended to be.

My source for this bit of info is from the 1978 House Select Committee on Assassinations report, which states:

"(128) The CE 351 windshield, made of two layers of laminated, tinted glass, has two separate fracture areas. (See fig. 5.) In the first (I), the point of impact is located 13 3/8 inches down from the top edge and 22 7/8 inches to the right of the left edge (the measurements were made from the front side of the windshield). No fractures were noted on the inside surface of the glass. On the outside surface, some fracture lines radiated out from the point of impact. The presence of fracture lines on the outside is indicative of a foreign object striking the windshield from the inside.(74)"

Oh, and here's a photograph, taken from the outside, which clearly shows what would appear to be a gouge (but NOT a hole) on the INSIDE of the windshield.

Distance iew first, for visual reference:



And close-up.

...CE = "Commission Exhibit", as in WARREN Commission, just in case you didn't know that.

You're going to have to use a lot more than that to be able to tell me that I'm wrong. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you may have been just poorly informed, but now it appears that you're posting remarks that are deliberately misleading.

If you want to talk about Warren Commission exhibits, perhaps you may want to discuss CE349, which clearly shows a circular dent in the frame above and to the right of the rear-view mirror. Perhaps you may want to explain what you think that is:

<>

And how about CE350M? Care to explain that, too?:

<>

Note where the centre is. Draw a straight line from there to the rear of the vehicle, where JFK was seated (on the opposite side of the driver). Now consider the angle of deflection of a ricochet from a bullet fragment striking the INSIDE of the vehicle's windshield. The dent in the mirror is entirely consistent with such deflection. Simple physics.

And I find the existence of a memorandum from the Ford Motor Company technician who examined the vehicle stating there was "no perforation" more compelling as evidence than your assumptions which totally ignore such evidence.

...the windshield was replaced after it was photographed for CE350 and the other CE photos, and before it arrived at Dearborn? Here's a summary of the details...on 11/26/1963, Arlington Glass personnel arrived to replace the windshield. According to the White House Logs, they first took about five minutes to measure it, then returned to install it. Mr. Davis of the SS took the old windshield, which the men had to push out with their feet.

Interesting, don't you think? Particularly since the limo wasn't driven to Dearborn to be completely rebuilt until 12/20/1963.

Now who's ignoring evidence?

See post 128 for a copy of the memorandum (giving details of examination on 23 November 1963).

...now you're just being dishonest. Why is that, exactly?

or to READ what I said...you'll note that the date given for this examination is three days PRIOR to the replacement of the windshield, which renders it totally irrelevant. Surely you're aware that November 23 is BEFORE November 26 and not after?

and basically the first time I have heard such nonsense.
You should get a prize for that.

The windshield busted by a fragment of his skull. I guess you are then saying that the man who replaced the vindshield with a hole was a liar?
He was in "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" series.

Not a skull fragment. Bone doesn't leave traces of lead, last time I checked.

And here's a Ford Motor Company memo which statres "no perforation" in the windshield of the vehicle.

But on another track didn't we already have more bullet fragments then we could account for from the pristine bullet?

Average weight of Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5mm bullets from the same manufacturing lots as those used by Oswald is between 159 and 162 grains. The weight of the so-called "pristine" bullet (which is far from pristine, by the way, but is deformed at the base, slightly bent, and has rifling striations that match Oswald's rifle) weighed 158.6 grains, and the lead fragments recovered are so miniscule that their total weight, added to the weight of the so-called "magic" bullet, is well within the expected total weight range for 6.5mm Carcano rounds.

Not to mention that neutron activation analysis of the fragments recovered from Connally's wrist matches them to the so-called "magic" bullet.

The other fragments recovered (from the interior of the vehicle and from JFK's head wound) were shown to come from a second bullet, that which inflicted the fatal headshot.

...and how much did they weigh? We'll never know because Connally's widow refused to allow the fragment(s) to be removed at the autopsy for use by JFK researchers.

Additionally, how many fragments were cleaned out from the alleged wound track through JFK and Connally?

One overwhelming fact is that JFK's back wound located about 5.75 inches below the middle of his neck and about one inch to the right of his spine, did NOT go through his body, and could be probed to the depth of the tip of a little finger. In order for the "Magic Bullet" to have worked, he would have had to have been struck high on the right shoulder or neck to allow for the correct angle through his body into that of Connally below and just to the left of his right armpit.

The other overwhelming fact is that the wound in the front of JFK's neck below the Adams Apple was one of ENTRANCE, not exit as claimed by the Warren Commission.

From the Zapruder film Connally is seen holding his hat in his right hand. Despite the fact that his wrist has supposedly shattered by the "Magic Bullet", he CONTINUES to hold the hat for quite a few more frames with no descernible change in his grip until he falls over into the arms of his wife. Don't you think he would have lost his grip on that hat if his wrist had been shattered when the Warren Commission said it was struck by the "Magic Bullet"?

Several faulty assumptions, actually. The estimated weight of the fragment left in Connally's femur was "a fraction of a grain". The estimated total weight was 1.5 grains or so. Which makes your contention that those fragments CAN'T have come from the "magic" bullet dubious at best.

And there were no fragments recovered from Kennedy, because the bullet transited soft tissue.

As to Connally's holding on to his hat, even with a wounded wrist, you're apparently ignorant of involuntary neuromuscular response. And of his wife's testimony that he continued to hold onto the hat with the same hand all the way to Parkland Hospital.

I'm STILL waiting for you to say something that's backed up by a shred of evidence or credible analysis.

but anyway, here is more on the windshield. Tough to find BTW.

http://www.h1bvisasucks.com/H1BDiscussions_issue_rico.htm

clip-
Detroit's Connection - Henry Ford used Al Capone's folks to bust the unions. Note also that Sr. Ford Mgr Edward Whitacre Jr. saw the JFK Limo at his plant two days after the JFK Mob/Pres Johnson hit. The Secret Service ordered him to replace the from windshield. This showed a bullet hole that entered into the car from the front to the back. The Secret Service ordered them to destroy this evidence. This information would have been physical evidence that would dispute the official Warren Commission report.

The original windshield still exists and is in the National Archives. See my other posts with photos of damage to the windshield and eyewitness report from Ford Motor Co. tech who examined the vehicle in Washington DC on 23 Nov. 1963 as evidence that this supposed bullet hole did not in fact exist.

You will question my beliefs and I will question yours. I seriously question anything from the Warren Commission.
This information came from "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" which was originaly shown on A&E network. The first 5 parts originally came from Britain and have been edited for the History Channel for more commercials.
In the 5th part they talked to Christian David from the Corsican Mafia who claimed that 4 were sent from there for the job. I don't know quite where those results lie now.

Part 6 was about Judy Baker (hope I'm getting the names right here) who claimed that Ferie and Oswald and the boys were working on cancer causing virus' that would be used to kill castro.

The point of going to the extremes, is that there is obviously more to this story than the patsy.

but if you choose to reject all of the physical evidence merely because it was cited by the Warren Commission, you're not left with much basis to build any kind of case on.

And circumstance makes conspiracy HIGHLY unlikely. Oswald started working at the book depository well before JFK's visit to Dallas was announced. The changes in the motorcade route were dictated by last-minute changes in JFK's itinerary, and the route was only finalised three days before the assassination. It's beyond the realm of believaility that there can have been a conspiracy so wide-ranging that it managed to set up everything that happened just so Lee Harvey Oswald could be set up to take the fall.

There was much disinformation then as there is today. One link I read today said that no fingerprints of Oswald were found in the "snipers" nest.
Oswald also worked out of the fair play for Cuba office and also distributed anti Castro literature..
I also heard that the secret service guys were boozing it up the night before and I don't think the route was ever designed with security in mind.

The fact that nobody can build a case with all the dead witnesses should give you a clue.

I won't throw it all out if you don't either.
fair? :toast:

:hide:

How is it that ALMOST ALL of the brain tissue which leaves the President's skull is going the same speed as, if not slower than, the limo? Notice how it quickly settles back and away from the President. Notice how hardly any tissue EVER moves ahead relative to the grass in the background.



If the shot came from the rear, the speed of most of the tissue would be the speed of the limo PLUS the forward momentum caused by the would-be rear entry impact. But, as you can see, most of the tissue is actually left behind by the slow-moving limo.

I have just proven, beyond reasonable doubt, that the bullet did not come from the rear.

Comments?

Small particles have virtually no wind resistance.

He's clearly shot from behind. That is not an entry wound on the front right side of his head. No gun in the world creates entry wounds that big without blowing his head completely apart or blowing the limo up. That's because entry wounds are only as big as the diameter of the projectile - as nothing has acted on the bullet yet to cause it to expand. It doesn't matter how stupidly overjuiced your gun is. Exit wound will be bigger than entry wound.

If you want an entry wound that big, you're talking an anti-tank rifle, probably with some sort of explosive shell. And that would have completely decapitated JFK and probably killed Jackie as well.

over multiple frames, as they hang suspended in the air. Why did they wait so long to observe that torrential wind?

JUST WATCH THE VIDEO FOOTAGE. A small child can figure that one out.

As for the president's backwards head movement, the second and fatal shot -- as seen in the enhanced Zapruder film -- makes it appear that the shot came from the front. But experts explain that two things are happening in that split second. As the fatal bullet destroys the president's brain, he goes into a neuromuscular seizure and his body starts to stiffen up. At the same time that the bullet wound explodes out the right front side of his head, and as that blood and brain tissue moves out, it forces him in the opposite direction, the jet effect, back and to the left, violently.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/conspiracy/

Take a look at the post above as well. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5562446&mesg_id=5564434

The "experts" below reject the jet effect THEORY.

"Josiah Thompson notes that the neuromuscular-reaction theory conflicts with what is known about human reflex actions:

The extremely small time factor combined with the relatively large mass of the President's head would tend to rule out such an explanation. The fastest reflex action known to science--the startle response--takes place over an interval of 40 to 200 milliseconds. Beginning with an eyeblink in 40 milliseconds, the response wave moves the head forward in 83 milliseconds, and then continues downward reaching the knees in 200 milliseconds. The change in direction we observe occurs in 56 milliseconds (1/18th second), and involves not the negligible mass of an eyelid but the considerable mass of a human head moving forward under an acceleration of several g's. (59:93)

As for the jet-effect hypothesis, ballistics expert Larry Sturdivan gave testimony to the HSCA that tended to refute the theory, and he himself seemed to implicitly reject it. Among other things, Sturdivan pointed out that the right-frontal explosion seen in the Zapruder film would not have had sufficient force to rapidly propel JFK's upper body backward and to the left (1 HSCA 423). Furthermore, Sturdivan noted that whatever force was created by the right-frontal spray would have pushed Kennedy straight to the left, not backward and to the left. Some proponents of the jet-effect theory appeal to Newton's third law as support for the idea, but physics instructor Ken
Degazio has refuted this suggestion (10:367-368)."

http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id81.htm

Notice the explosion in the front of the skull? That is only consistent with an exit wound. Entry wounds don't do that.

Also, notice that he moves forward when first shot and then back. The forward motion is due to the impact itself while the backward motion of his body is due to a nervous system reaction to being shot.

Officer Hargis riding BEHIND JACKIE was splashed with brain material.

Mr. HARGIS. Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going,"----

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol6/page294.php

Follow the link to see where Hargis headed after the limo sped off. Here's a hint: it wasn't TSBD, although to be fair, he thought the shots might have come from there or else where he actually went due to "activity" at this site.

Also, if Jack was shot in the back of the head, then why is the official exit wound on the side of his head? IMO, the exit wound should be in the facial or temporal area, not above the right ear. OTOH, a frangible bullet would require no exit wound as it explodes on impact.

Most went forward. You have to bear in mind that the front of his skull exploded from the exit wound and sent brain and skull matter flying every which way.

... or is that just your opinion? Autopsy photos show the front of the skull intact. The right side of his head exploded.

Officer Martin had brain matter on him. And he was to the LEFT OF HARGIS who was back and to the left of Jackie.

Mr. Ball.
Did you notice any stains on your helmet?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; during the process of working traffic there, I noticed that there were blood stains on the windshield on my motor and then I pulled off my helmet and I noticed there were blood stains on the left side of my helmet.
Mr. BALL. To give a more accurate description of the left side, could you tell Us about where it started with reference to the forehead?
Mr. MARTIN. It was just to the left---of what would be the center of my forehead--approximately halfway, about a quarter of the helmet had spots of blood on it.
Mr. BALL. And were there any other spots of any other material on the helmet there besides blood ?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there was other matter that looked like pieces of flesh.
Mr. Ball.
What about your uniform?
Mr. Martin.
There was blood and matter on my left shoulder of my uniform.

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol6/page292.php

... and to the left with some of it landing on the trunk. Skull fragments were found in the street to the back and left, also.

Also, the bulk stays in the car and indeed right in his seat. Almost all the matter goes forward or to the sides of Kennedy's head. Some gets blown well above his head, but you can clearly see that this is coming from THE FRONT OF HIS SKULL. If the bullet came from the front, the explosion of brain matter would be coming out the back. I've hunted and shot animals. I know what entry and exit wounds look like.

Their is absolutely NO WAY that bullet came from the front. The probability is 0% based on the x-rays and clearly by the film you posted.

what I described. It is impossible for a bullet to enter from the front and cause the effect that the bullet did. It simply doesn't happen. If it caused that big of an impact on the front of the skull, it would have blown his head to pieces and possibly more than just his head.

...in which they used balistic gel placed over human bones to simulate the "magic bullet" theory. They created life size manniquins using ballistic gel and human bones and placed them according to photos and forensic evidence. They then had a guy take shots using the same type of rifle that Oswald used from the same elevation and distance. They matched up pretty well with what happened.

I think it called Beyond the Magic Bullet but I cannot be sure.

The television show "Myth Busters" debunked the magic bullet theory some time ago. One question still remains though; Did Oswald work alone?

As far as the forensic evidence about how many shots were fired and who shot them, I think it's absolutely crystal clear that Oswald fired the only shots. As far as who he was associated with or if he worked alone? Who knows???? Thats a good question.

...allegedly found in the Texas School Book Depository? You do know that the FBI firarms experts refused to test-fire that rifle until certain repairs were made, don't you?

Do you also know that a tree that was present on November 22, 1963, in front of the TSBD blocked "Oswald's" view from the sixth floor to the moving presidential limo until AFTER the first shot was fired?

How about where Oswald was found in the 2nd-floor lunchroom of the TSBD calmly drinking a soda by a police officer within 60 seconds of the shooting? Oswald was not sweating nor was he breathing heavily from what must have been a rather strenuous zig-zag route across the sixth floor that was piled high with boxes of books, and a five-floor descent to the lunchroom.

Did you also know that the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle could NOT be broken down to fit either the dimensions of the paper bag that the Warren Commission claimed that Oewald fashioned from wrapping paper, nor fit from the palm of his hand to his armpit as claimed by the only Warren Commission witness?

Oswald was nothing more but a convenient patsy, just as he publicly claimed while in handcuffs.

...and bone matter that should have been sprayed all over the inside of the limo's windshield, dashboard, and the secret servicemen sitting in the two front seats. In fact, neither of the secret servicemen testified to being sprayed with human debris. One would think that would have been permanently registered in their minds, and would have been mentioned in their sworn statements.

It mainly hits the back of the seat in front of Kennedy and towards the governor and also towards the sides, including on Jackie, and a small amount sprays up. It is difficult for the brain matter to spray much farther forward than it did since it was relatively small particles to go that far forward when they are competing against the wind and momentum of the car. There is simple physics involved here. If I was more of a physics student, I'm sure I could do the math for you.

Now, look at the evidence here for just a moment:


Now let's conduct a logical exercise regarding this evidence.
-Would you admit that the explosion of brain matter is clearly coming from the front of his skull? Since there is no way to conclude this is not the case, the answer is probably yes.
-Would you admit that the evidence is that there is a bullet path from the back of his head to the front of his head given where the wounds in his head are? I'm not yet saying that the wound actually came from the back.
-Would you admit that the explosion in the front of his skull causing the erruption of brain matter that we see on the film is consistent with an exit wound and not an entry wound?
-Would you then admit that because there is an entry point in the back of his head in alignment with the exit wound in the front of his head that it is clear that the shot came from behind?

Now before you attempt to say that is not an exit wound, I would tell you that it is physically impossible for it to be the reverse with the exit wound being in the back and an explosion of that sort being at the point of entry. The ammunition needed to cause such an effect would have blown up far more than just the front of his skull.

Now, while I am saying that the shot came from the book depository since the physical evidence does suggest as much, it is possible that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy that involved shooting from the book depository. He certainly did have many enemies in high places so it is possible. Given the strange circumstances involved with many of the other events surrounding the investigation and what of course happened to Oswald I am not ruling out a conspiracy. All I am saying is that the shot did indeed come from behind and the only logical point from there is the book depository.

...and I totally reject the notion that the shot that hit JFK in the head was from the rear. The Warren Commission wants us all to be good little sheep and buy the official story, but that boat was sinking before it left the dock.

If you want to believe the official line about the fatal headshot coming from the rear, feel free to do so.

The fact is that nothing about that shot is consistent with a shot from the front. It simply doesn't work.

Hargis to the left and back of Kennedy got smacked with the material. He's not forward or to the side of Jack. He's behind and to the left. The matter even hits the LEFT SIDE of Martin's windshield and helmet even though he is also left of Hargis. The material discharges out of the RIGHT SIDE OF HIS SKULL, not the front and it goes off in all directions.

relatively small amount of brain matter sprayed up into the air while much of it clearly has a forward direction to it. This amount that was sprayed up into the air flies backward because the car moves out from underneath it and there is wind carrying it as well. If the shot came from the front, virtually everything would have sprayed straight back, not to mention that the exit wound would have been towards the rear of his skull and it is not.

...forward, the Secret Service agents riding in the front seat would have made some reference to the spray hitting the inside of the windshield, the dashboard, Connally, and Mrs. Connally. No sworn statements from those people ever mentioned any forward spray, and no photographic evidence exists showing any human debris on the inside of the windshield and dashboard.

But, we do know that the motorcycle police officer to the left-rear of the limo was struck with debris, as was his windshield and the bike itself. We also know that Jackie climbed out on the trunk and retrieved a small piece of skull that had been blown out of the back of JFK's head. Additionally, we know there was a defect in the right-rear of JFK's skull because of the sworn testimony of the medical personnel at Parkland (which was a trauma center at the time specializing in gunshot wounds), and the testimony of others at Bethesda.

You simply don't accept the arguments because you have a very closed minded view of the matter. The photographic evidence is there for clear observation and I have already explained what you are talking about.

To reiterate, the brain matter's direction is clearly forward immediately after impact. The dispersion points towards the seat and area in front of Kennedy and to the sides immediately around there. However, when the matter exited, some sprayed up into the air far above his head and was carried away by wind and the momentum of the car moving away from it. If the bullet was coming from the front and exiting towards the back of the car. As can be seen in the photograph and film, the bulk remained in the area in front and to the sides of Kennedy. If the bullet had been travelling from front to back, due to the nature of the car moving forward, virtually no brain matter would have moved towards the front at all. It would not have looked like this:



You know, you can have a conspiracy without trying to use physically impossible arguments as the basis of the conspiracy. It's possible Oswald was hired by others you know or planted there just to take the fall for the investigation.

conspiracy theories are nothing more then the examinations of facts..... after the fact, and comming to a conslusion that is different to popular beleif.... its not something to call someone a wacko about unless there is evidence to DISPROVE their facts. i imagine darwinism was once considered a conspiracy theory

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

Am I saying that you're all wrong? No. Am I saying that it was just Oswald who did it, that the official story is correct? NO.

I don't know what really happened. Your theories are as good as--no, better than--mine. I'm inclined to think there was a conspiracy.

The thing that bothered me is that SO MANY DUers ARE WILLING TO AGREE THAT THERE IS MORE TO THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION THAN THE OFFICIAL STORY, BUT THOSE SAME DUers RIDICULE ANYONE WHO QUESTIONS THE OFFICIAL STORY OF 9/11, CALLING THAT PERSON A "TINFOIL HATTER"!

Sorry. It just pisses me off when I see anyone unquestioningly accept anything from the * administration.

...the official 911 story while questioning the official line about the JFK assassination?

If you're going to make a blanket statement like that, you ought to name names.

used the expression "tinfoil hat" to dismiss ANY explanation of 9/11 which was at variance with the official story.

But I think there is a natural tendency among people to want to identify themselves as "the sane, normal ones"--not anyone who might believe anything a little different.

More important than just slapping down a list of names of every poster who's ever ridiculed any explanation of 9/11 other than the official Bush explanation, one important sign that people don't question the official Bush 9/11 story is: the fact that all threads/articles questioning the official story are shut down, locked, and hustled off to the special "9/11 forum".

We don't have, for example, a special Plamegate forum. Or an Iraq war forum. Or a Dick Cheney forum. Or a Jeff Gannon forum.

But we do have a 9/11 forum. Apparently b/c it's just not allowed to express serious alternatives to the official Bush 9/11 story.

on 911 or anything else.
As you know the Kennedy Murder is a big topic on it's owm and we're 42 years out. The clock is running.
In another 42 years, some will be all over the 911 lies.
I do find it a little weird that the information is dropped to the basement 911 forum, but the subject can get quite carried away and just as with this topic, the opinions vary widely.

I consider myself sane, normal and that the b*shies are the insane, abnormal, and unthinking cultists.
Hope that helps!
:freak:

:cry:

Do you know how OLD I'll be then?? And it will be way, way too late to put Bush/Cheney in prison, and way, way, too late to keep them from killing more soldiers needlessly....

We can't afford to wait that long!!

JFK's assassination was important, but I believe this is even more important!

:cry:

Do you know how OLD I'll be then?? And it will be way, way too late to put Bush/Cheney in prison, and way, way, too late to keep them from killing more soldiers needlessly....

We can't afford to wait that long!!

JFK's assassination was important, but I believe this is even more important!

Priscilla Johnson McMillan and the CIA
http://www.jfk-info.com/pjm-cia.htm

You may wish to peruse www.assassinationscience website along with reading the new book

A Farewell To Justice by Joan Mellen

www.joanmellen.net/

Oswald's intell background along with the intell community's sabotaging of the Garrison investigation ... Oliver Stone was correct, and even Gerald Posner is now saying I hear, that the CIA DID have a role in covering up the assassination...

Olbermann should have mentioned that Posner took the CIA's lack of involvment in a coverup as a 'given'. That an active involvment in a coverup would entail subverting even the "evidence" that Posner used in his 1993 book Case Closed is self-evident, even a seasoned journalist like KO should have checked into and mentioned, is deplorable.

Hey, maybe KO could interview Joan Mellen on his show ? "Fair and Balanced" and all that is something MSNBC would want to do, right ? Not to mention the New Orleans CIA media outlet during the times of the '60s was an NBC outlet that Mellen mentions...naw, that wouldn't have anything to do with this now would it ?

...where he completely destroyed Posner's book, point by point?

Maybe you should do that before posting stuff that just makes you look silly.

If I subjected every single outlandish claim to a detailed and scholarly analysis, I'd still be stuck on "A" for "Atlantis, Aliens Built."

It's so sad, this thread. Lets keep him alive for a moment.

"And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

(Inaugural speech January 20, 1961)
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/johnfkennedyinaugural.htm

Here's Eisenhower and Kennedy


With Johnson


Arguing with Krutchev


What if he'd lived on? What then?
And his brother too.

Pictures from here - free and copyrightless:
http://teachpol.tcnj.edu/amer_pol_hist/_browse.htm

The what if is what keeps me going. The results of this assassination continue to reverberate to this day.

I consider myself a Kennedy/Wellstone democrat and will always be left wondering.
:thumbsup:

I also wrote Keith in the hopes that he will present more on this topic.
I like Keith, but siding with Posner and Oswald set me off.
Anything else going on? :9

the CIA essentially controls all of our "mainstream media",

then we will not get an honest answer, at least from "main-stream" media, will we?

except that it was rogue elements of cia and also mafia and pure old cold war politics. Some wanted to attack Cuba and they are still around to this day. It can't be pinned so neatly on any one group or person.
If this were Star Wars, they would be the Dark Side.

aka official story?

that it actually was possible. Believe me, I believed many of the conspiracy theories about the grassy knoll and the coverups, etc, but I have seen what I deem to be convincing evidence to the contrary since then and since I have decided to look into other sources than just conspiracy sources.

My own experience in hunting also tells me that the entry and exit wounds were consistent with what the "official" story was. It is possible that Oswald was brought in by a conspiracy that set him up as the fall guy, but the shots did come from his location. I have no doubt about that anymore.

Poppy was in Dallas.

J Edgar Hoover put it in the record for a reason.