WTF is the problem tonight?

It's no secret that GD, under the best of circumstances, is the last place to be for anyone with a thin skin (after all, half the posts in the Lounge are about how scary GD is).

But what the hell is UP tonight, people? I don't mean the passion in GD is high -- I mean the "fuck you!" factor in here has hit an extreme like I have never seen in nearly five years of haunting these halls. And I mean never.

I know, I KNOW: DP is the big issue right now. I KNOW how pissed off both sides are about it. But this isn't the first time such a hot-button issue has incited 300 angry posts in a single thread within half an hour. The difference is, my eyes never quite melted in their sockets as they have tonight.

No names -- I'm not calling anybody out. But what I see is this: Half the DUers on my mental list of Gentle and Practically Christlike Diplomatic Souls are raving lunatics tonight, and the usual raving lunatics have crossed the line into Psychotic Past the Point of No Return territory. Jesuspleaseus, you'd think Donny Rumsfeld just dropped in and proposed we start supplying the IDF with nuclear weapons in order to bomb San Francisco and wipe out all the gay people. And their kittens.

More accurately, it feels like half the people I thought I had a handle on have been replaced by pod people I don't recognize at all.

Did somebody drop acid in the water supply, or what?

in five years I've never seen anything like it.

I have to admit to being a bit surprised. :shrug:

manifesting itself out of this one issue.

it happens.

but I also sense, that the DP and the tookie willimas debate taking much of the attention, plus the Marshalls who shot the bipolar guy...but, i'm at a loss of words...:P mostly! I have 19 coors lights in me, so don't pay attention...

And it's an issue that has nothing to do with what's been chipping away at our souls for all five years.

The person hammered by a boss goes home and kicks the dog who loves him... We always hurt the ones we love... Yada yada.

I hate to see us eat our own. :(

damn frustration.

It's the opposite of bliss, so I guess it's the opposite of ignorance as well. paying attention these days is not for the faint-hearted.

This too shall pass. Kinda.

But I've seen some stuff tonight that... well, if I were on the receiving end of it, I don't know if I could ever completely get over it. I can (and do) interact, civilly and sometimes even playfully, with people who have body-slammed me in the past, but the trust is gone.

But damn, I don't know.

I think some folks may come out with a moral view of each other that may be irreconcilable.

I really think it's OK. There is a certain honesty about it IMO, as unpleasant as it is.

peace :)

:-) Have you ever seen DUer's FUin' back and forth that like that before?

I have a nasty mouth and it honestly shocked me. DUer's F-bombin' the hell out of each other.

May peace return to the land underground.

:)

Since I am getting very weary of politics, I decided to do something different.

I contacted an admin hoping he could douse the flames. People I like on both sides of the DP issue were in complete meltdown. It scared me and I didn't want to join in because I was afraid anything I said would make matters worse.

:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

I can only imagine that many others did the same.

Passionate people, passionate topic.

It scared me too, in the sense that it was coming from some of the very last corners I would ever expect it to come from: a few people I hold up as model DUers, and a number of DUers I just really, really like. In some cases, it shook perceptions I had formed over (literally) years.

When it happens individually (and we all go off the deep end at some point), that's one thing, but when it seems to happen en masse, you don't quite know which way to turn. Or who's your friend. Or if they'll still be your friend the day you discover there's a single issue that can rend a rift wider than the Mississippi.

"In some cases, it shook perceptions I had formed over (literally) years."

I'm learning not to put people up on pedestals because we're all imperfect, but when you expect rationality and instead get a meltdown, it's still unsettling.

I was thinking that the right-wingers must view abortion in the same light as many here view the death penalty. If we can't discuss the death penalty rationally, how can we expect someone who views abortion as murder to discuss abortion rationally? I don't believe a zygote is a human being, but I also feel there should be restrictions on abortion after a certain period of gestation, backed up by strong laws helping unwed mothers and fatherless children. That view probably isn't very popular here, so I've kept my mouth shut for the most part. Now I'm glad I did.

I would post this observation (abortion is just as much a hot-button issue as the death penalty) in GD, but shit! Now is not the time. Besides, those who consider all abortion to be murder either won't speak up or are posting elsewhere on the Internet.

I'm beginning to see that what needs healing most in this country is the way we interact with those who disagree. I'm as guilty as sin on this issue, too.

Anyone have any bright ideas?

On edit: It looks like I did post "this observation" in GD. I thought I was posting in the Lounge. Oh well, I have my asbestos suit handy. :scared:

And there's no reason you shouldn't be free to post your opinion on abortion, or capital punishment, or anything else (that conforms to GD rules) in GD... theoretically. But I censor myself a lot, too, and my self-censorship isn't limited to GD.

When DU was younger, I didn't hold back on my opinions at all. And since we didn't have the smaller forums, everything landed in GD -- but as there were considerably fewer DUers then, it was a rare thing to see a thread go over 100 posts. And it was easier to remember who was who, and where everybody stood on which issue. (My "mental list of DUers" then consisted mainly of those who supported LGBT rights, and those who didn't.) Now I see posters with well over 1000 posts and realize I've never seen their usernames before.

Where was I going with this? LOL

I'm inclined to agree with you: "what needs healing most in this country is the way we interact with those who disagree." It may sound trite to say we're never all going to agree on everything, so we'd better learn to agree to disagree and move on -- but that's what it boils down to, and that's the way it's always been. What makes things different now is that we (DU, the U.S., the world) have moved into territory that's unknown to our generation, and was unknown even to everyone who preceded us for the past century: We're getting a taste of how the Civil War literally pitted "brother against brother." Growing up, I could never understand how mere politics could actually split families -- how petty that seemed! And then "politics" turned out not to be politics at all; I thank IndianaGreen for an exchange I'm sure he's forgotten all about, but I never will: IG made me realize that I needed to stop looking at things in terms of "politics," and realize that what we were really talking about was "core values."

So, when I'm accused (and I have been, in the real world) of interjecting "politics" into every discussion, or of interjecting LGBT issues into every political discussion (and I have been, on DU), I can ignore the chastisement, because I know I'm not being petty; it's my life, and my core values, we're talking about, and I'll never let anyone dismiss those things as irrelevant again.

That's led to a split within my own family, and it's been my choice not to associate with people who deliberately put their pocketbooks ahead of my well-being -- or to whom "blood is thicker than water" means absolutely nothing.

Before the nightmarish * Era began, I knew full well which of them were Republicans, and merely "tolerated" their little cousin's gayness -- but their right-wing "values" and my lack of civil rights never became issues around the table. But after numerous attempts to fend off attacks from the most extreme among them, I've simply removed myself from the situation.

Which brings us right back to DU: I did my embarrassing swansong a long time ago ("I'm taking my keyboard and going home!"), and got plenty of "don't let the door hit you" responses. But here I am -- and just as I've made it a point for my own survival to be aware of who's my friend and who's my enemy in my own family, I choose my playmates on DU just as selectively. I'll interact with anyone -- but I won't let my guard down with just anyone, as I've been baited too many times, by too many people whose greatest pleasure seems to be getting a rise out of others for their own entertainment.

The funny thing is that while last night made me see a few people in a light I'd rather not see them in, I've noticed my feeling toward a few DUers I once condsidered "the enemy" has evolved over the past year or so into a grudging respect, if not more. I don't know if they've mellowed, or I have. LOL

The one example I can give here: Andy Stephenson. When "God_bush_and_cheney" arrived at DU, he and I mixed it up like a couple of mad cats over a few issues, and couldn't seem to find any common ground on anything. He annoyed the hell out of me, and I'm know I pissed him off to no end, too.

In the end, and without either of us ever making a conscious effort to mend fences, things (for me) evolved from that "grudging respect" into full-blown affection and admiration. I miss him a lot -- and the crazy thing is, I probably wouldn't have liked him or missed him half as much as I do if we hadn't started out at each other's throats. So maybe meltdowns can have a positive effect -- although I must say on the record that Andy and I never attacked each other personally. Not once. There's a huge difference between "I think you are 100% wrong about A, B, and C" and diminishing another person's entire existence to a label; e.g., "Because you believe A, B, and C, you are a neanderthal / fascist / idiot / troll / freeper / murderer."

For me, it's not that I put too many (if any) people on a pedestal; that's just setting oneself up for supreme disappointment. More it's just reminding myself, repeatedly, that the DUer who condescends to me with, say, "I can't support gay rights because God says you are a sinner," could be the nice neighboor across the street who unfailingly takes care of my cat when I go away for the weekend.

That's not always easy to remember.

No matter what one does or doesn't celebrate, this time of year brings out the worst in many.

And I have a fucking cold.

And as tedious as George Bush.

I have a sore throat, and that can only mean one thing: hot tea with honey and whiskey. My typing should be getting a lot worse pretty soon.

so we can deal with that! :-)

Besides, there are probably enough friday night tipplers here so's you'll be lost in a sea of typos!

holidays, not cold (though I have a cold too. Usually for most of the winter, bastard germs) I hope you feel better.

I noticed it earlier this afternoon; people are just, hostile. I freaked out yesterday (though not here) just due to a pileup of a million little things, none of which I seem to have any control over Sooner or later I guess people just snap and start to, retaliate, since that's too ingrained a reflex to constant harassment from all sectors to really resist forever.


peace, everybody. (sigh) The pendulum will swing. The wheel will turn.

I usually enjoy the holidays and try to celebrate them all -but I don't have the pressures of having to make "perfect holiday memories" for anybody, or relatives I don't like to deal with, or children; and all my packages were mailed out by last Tuesday plus I'm retired. Most people have so much to do, and so much they think they have to do and so little time in which to do it plus it's dark and cold and everywhere you go it's the same awful versions of the very worst Christmas music ... Oh yeah, I understand the holiday rage!

At least here, on a message board, people can unleash their worst feelings without doing any actual harm. Posting rage is so much better than road rage!

At the best of times this place reminds me of the best nightclub I ever had the joy of frequenting. You could just chat to anybody about just about anything and most people were very family-like and supported one another. I missed that vibe and I'm glad to have found a new version of it here.

I do vent, from time to time, but I try really hard not to direct it AT other posters. And if I don't have anything that qualifies as nice or at least useful/funny/whatever to say I try not to say anything at all. But sometimes when you have nowhere else to put this pressurized rage I guess this is a better place to do it without RL harm that might result from snapping in a crowded store, or road rage as you mentioned.

: ) Enjoy your holidays and the peacefulness of them. It sounds like you've earned it over the years.

And the Christmas music. Lord. I had a mall-job a few years back and that same crap was still playing in mid-January. I assembled a small band of protestors and we threw a fit at the mall officials, to no avail. I can see till Jan 2, 4, etc, but 20th? Come on. Enough!

I once worked over the Christmas season at Bally's in Reno, where Travis... not Tritt, but Somebody Travis (Andy? Randy?) -- some country singer -- was performing. And they played his new album on the PA over and over and over and over, nonstop, 24/7.

I would have sold my soul for a three-minute break of ANYTHING else.

I didn't see the "I'm drunk and I probably wont' remember what I posted tomorrow"...damn it...sorry, i should have voted for that one.

Sorry, to me GD is really dead tonight, and the last few nights, where have you seen all this hate?

But I feel it's been like this for awhile here just extremely magnified of late. One of the reasons I hardly ever post anymore. Never was that prolific anyway but I'm probably down to 1 or less posts per week now. Basically just stop by and read LBN with a quick troll through GD and the Lounge. Even the lounge can set people off like you wouldn't believe.

For obvious reasons, of course. :) But something struck me today: There was a GLBT thread about a lesbian teenager suing her school for outing her, and a GD thread about the exact same story. The GD thread nearly turned into a flame war, while the GLBT thread stayed calm and attracted little activity (and the story is one that primarily affects gay people!). And it's not as if the GLBT forum never has heated discussions. It has its share. LOL

GD is just hot to the touch right now. I never thought the Religion/Theology forum would feel tame by comparison.

It's nice to adopt a forum, e-monk. It's a welcome respite to hang with like-minded people, be the subject cooking or model airplanes.

I let my star lapse and can't post in a couple of the groups I was a member of. Kinda miss the photography forum folks.

All the freakin' bad news that we get everyday plus the stress of the holidays is likely the cause.

I only see one, and even he/she posted a very sarcastic Air Marshal thread.

My advice, avoid posting to any of those thread, they are mostly flame bate that should be deleted anyway.

That's just not good for DU. Being practically mod-less, I mean.

...but I will never be a mod. I'd end up getting myself banned. LOL

set my "snark-o-meter" low enough to be a Mod, unfortunately. :7

I'm not that subtle. LOL

The death penalty has got a LOT of airing, particularly with all the Tookie threads. Certain of those threads seemed to fly under the radar until some people started responding to what was being posted. It largely seemed to be a genuine attempt at debate but in a lot of cases descended into name-calling, flaming and outright bitchiness. It didn't help that the original couple of posters (starting a new anti-DP centering on Tookie every day) came across, to begin with, as condescending and quite fanatical, answering each other's and their own posts to get the total thread number up over 50, 100, whatever.

The passion that this subject generates is quite heartfelt and understandable, but sometimes has gone over the top. That's one reason why I've tended to stay away from it all (except for a couple of posts asking questions) - I really don't have enough information to contribute meaningfully so rather than make an ass out of myself I'll just look at the posts and leave it at that.

This general bad atmosphere will soon pass - steam has to be let off sometime. Just as long as we're all of one mind for the 2006 elections and beyond.

I was about to express the hope that tonight it reached its crescendo... but then I remembered: We still have to wait for an announcement from Der Gropenator's office, and then, we may be waiting for a second announcement.

If the execution goes through, I think it will signal the time to vacate the premises for a while. No amount of kevlar would be enough to survive GD if it gets any worse.

I've replied in a few of the DP threads, and the result has been gloriously unremarkable, but I realize I'd best stay out altogether. Ironically, my absence in those threads has nothing to do with the way I feel about the issue (which is quite passionately) -- I don't feel terribly upset by the DUers who disagree with my position -- it's when things dissolve into personal attacks that I start to feel sick about it. (Contrary to popular belief, I actually hate confrontation. LOL)

You're right, the general bad mood will pass. There's just an awful lot of fences that will need to be mended.

Psst, Hi, Dave! Haven't seen you in a while. :hi:

I've been laying low for no special reason - put it down to a combination of "WTF am I going to buy everyone for Christmas ?!?!" and there's so much stuff on DP in GD, and the Lounge is going through a tedious patch at the moment (so much dross, with a couple of gems) that I didn't feel I have much to contribute.

But I DO check the site every day - a good source of the breaking news that we just don't get here in Oz (as you'd know). And you're quite correct - there's gonna be a shitload of fences to mend and bridges to rebuild. It'll take a while.

:hi:

...to post those discussions to one of the Topic Forums. Yes, they don't get as much traffic, but you would most likely not get so many lunatics that just want to pick a fight. Or else, the Mods should move those threads to the appropriate topic forum to diffuse the tension in GD.

Here's a few choices:

Civil Liberties

Guns

Justice

Media

National Security

Poverty

Race/Equality

You might want to PM or e-mail Skinner or one of the other Admins and tell him the problem suggest he send out an Private Messages to all the Mods, telling them to move most of these DP and FAM threads to on of the topic forums, they need more traffic anyway, and the folks that regularly read those forums could probable set most of the snippy people straight to.

What program do you use, mostly, to do something like that?

ever so need.


peace

It wasn't pretty.

On the other hand, there's always tomorrow night!
:scared:

but mostly, some arguments are just -- ahem -- self entertainment -- yes?

OK, I'll admit there's entertainment value in some arguments (else there wouldn't be a :popcorn: icon!).

But when it comes to serious stuff, xc, I think you're very judicious in your comments -- so when you have a major point to make, it packs a wallop.

At least, I think it does. And yes, that's a high compliment. :)

stop -- you'll make me blush.

i'm so shy and retiring, ya know?:blush:

and ya know i love your posts.

probably because I was asleep.

Anyway, opppose the DP or I'll kill you!

Please, I'd like to set a record tonight -- for the one, single, solitary GD thread that didn't have any messages deleted, and wasn't locked. :D

...the education discussions have been pretty feisty of late.

Those who have been trying to shut down Home Schooling discussions in GD have been handed their heads.

Those who have been in complete denial about problems in the PS system have also been handed their heads (actually, the two sets are pretty much overlapping).

I described to one of them that being a compassionate free spirit pretty much sums up the modern Liberal philosophy. Didn't bat an eye, just continued with a freeper-like rant.

Personally I think the control freaks (few here, but noisy) have been drinking too much coffee and too many people are sick of trying to avoid stepping on their toes.

When a q-tip won't work to clear up that hearing problem, some people turn to bricks.

I had no idea. That tells you how noticeable it's been to me -- and I've been haunting DU a lot more lately in the past few weeks.

Maybe instead of throwing back the coffee, they could pass around a nice big spliff. I've never seen anybody get hostile on that. LOL

Actually, you did see some of it: that GD thread on the girl who was outted. I was in that one (on the side of the girl, natch).

It (the nastiness) started with a thread on a boy bringing a taser to school. Another education thread discussed a boy being suspended for speaking spanish during lunch hour (hoo boy, -that- was a 'good' one).

Here's the link to the 'main attraction' in the education debate:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5523251&mesg_id=5523251

This will be day six for this thread. We've had the 'flaming' icon on since day 1. We've not been locked and as I recall no messages have been deleted. We've actually done quite well aside from a few (so few as to be identifiable) control freaks.

Lots of witty repartee in that discussion :-)

Feel free to join in.

But I suspect acid in the water supply might help?

I'm backing out of threads waaay too much the last few days ... I'm just hunkered down waiting it out. It'll get better or it'll blow, soon enough. It is disconcerting seeing so many 'fuckyouburninhells' being passed off as reasoned discourse! I appreciate a good argument sometimes, but not w/the kiddies. If they can't spit out anything better than 'I'm right - you're wrong - neener, neener' it's better to send 'em to their rooms & pour a Glenfiddich. Neat. Double.

:toast:

Mars (aggression) is stationary (so exceptionally strong) after being retrograde which messes with everyone.
Mars is opposing Jupiter (which expands it) and squaring Saturn (judgment, restriction) and Neptune (confusion)

It's a fixed cross and we are experiencing it in the worst way we can

And during the FIXED SQUARE you can be feeling especially certain of your moral correctness or your right to have what you deserve. You can make plans and set goals, yet to get along with others, you may need to adapt, which may not seem possible. If your determination turns into rigidity, all progress will stop and energy become inhibited, crystallized, and congested. And since Mars and Saturn are included in this Grand Square, ego gratification and glorification can turn a grand plan into a rigid demand and there can be intolerance to opposing views and a refusal to make crucial, timely changes.You may become confused between doing what you feel is necessary for the greater plan to succeed and the immediate consequences to individuals. Negative emotions like anger and jealousy can turn inward and become so critical and judgmental they decay into negative attitudes and contaminating diseases that become so ingrained, insidious, and entrenched they cannot be changed or removed. Feelings that are deeply buried may become apparent through disease or emotional crisis, but there is no simple fix for moving out of entrenched and toxic patterns that are not working. Movement beyond this phase is a softening process, and there is no magic pill or bullet that will make everything immediately ideal. Softening can feel like a loss of power and potency to anyone who realizes that power is built slowly and by holding on, not by letting go. You cannot force anyone to be compassionate, yet by focusing only on absolute goals, we can lose our compassion and become emotionally (and possibly physically) rigid.
snip

So what does all this MEAN??? DENIAL is firmly entrenched. We are certain we are right, everyone else is wrong. It will take a major awakening to change this. Don't agree? That's the point. This is a time of being STUBBORN. NO ONE can tell YOU anything! You already know it all, so no progress can be made because you are unwilling to change ANYTHING and if you are not committed to your growth, you and your situation will remain exactly as it is. If you insist on continuing an argument and refuse to listen or take action, you can start to feel MORE frustrated and stuck than ever. If you always HAVE TO be right and automatically dismiss all other ideas, feedback, and information, you are assuring that you will continue to judge and remain stuck and angry, and even try to manipulate others into your trap. How? By projecting blame and guilt onto others while you, of course, remain blameless.
snip

This is a manipulative emotional tactic because you don't really believe you're any lower than anyone else. Realize it, let it go, move on to something more interesting and uplifting. You don't lose when you encourage and elevate others, but you do lose when you let resentment be your guide

...instead of whether or not somebody had spiked the water, if Mercury was in retrograde! I changed it at the last second, partly because I'm sure it isn't right now, and mostly because I've seen the beatings handed out when the subject of astrology comes up in GD. LOL

Ah, so it's Mars. Good ol' God-o'-War. When is this nasty little fixed cross supposed to go away?

Mercury is only recently direct. Mars is technically direct, but really not moving and Venus is about to go retrograde.

The cross is off and on through the next couple months, but lots of hard aspects.

Just for a fun note Mars is right next to bush's ascendant and Mercury. Good, we need him to get more stubborn!

I always think astrology could be coincidence. But for some reason I've always found when Mars is retrograde (every couple years) and until it's out of shadow (to the degree it went retrograde from) forums just get nasty, fights where you rarely see them. Health forums, political forums, doesn't matter.

But it could be a coincidence.

If anyone complains about astrology I'll deny I am me and blame someone else.

...and keep an extra-tight rein on myself. I came this-close to hammering all hell out of another DUer myself a few minutes ago. And since I didn't, I've now got a stabbing pain on one side of my neck.

Breathe. "Clear blue ocean, clear blue ocean, clear blue ocean..." Ommmmmmm... Not working, damn it.

Anyway, if anybody jumps on either us, we can both claim to have been overtaken by whatever aliens consumed GD.

place. Nothing new here. It's the same as always, imo.

a general decline in education.

Unfortunately, we should expect to see much more of this as time goes by.

...with the folk pounding my thread.

I'm in complete agreement with your assessment, and have said so several times. But there are those in the PS monopoly who will contest and spin -any- unfavourable assessment of the current PS paradigm.

Didn't want you to miss this thread - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5559580&mesg_id=5559580

...I was just going over a suggestion from one of my DU friends to join in that thread.

I said:

--
I don't see a need for me to rain on her parade. The story is a 'good news' story, and she doesn't appear to be bashing HS (let me know if that happens).

The discussion I started has aired (and likely will continue to air) the problems with the PS system. I think it would be a mistake to try and dominate every thread with that same issue.

Live and let live. That's what I believe in. In our HS thread, it was 'she-who-must-not-be-named' and her gang who tried to break us up. They failed. If I show them more tolerance than they showed us, it enhances our image and our message of tolerance.

Let's focus on the positive unless the goons give us something else to do ;-)
--
(personal matters and IDs removed)

"live and let live" ought to be a motto amongst liberals. The board is big enough for diverging viewpoints.

Doesn't seem to me as if proud is the one who started this fight.

The opinion on her amongst DU HSers seems rather universal, or so I've been told. She's been marked. Judging from the personalities I've met I'd say she probably earned that mark. Certainly from my own exchanges with her I've formed a rather negative opinion.

My recollection of her starts with my thanking TalahassieGrannie for information. This was in the Taser thread. 'She-who-must-not-be-named' descended on me with hyperbole and it's been downhill since then. Without a Search function I've been unable to probe this matter to my satisfaction, but once I become a member, I plan on doing just that.

One POV I do not agree with is an overly-rosy depiction of the PS system. If there is something prior to my recollection, that is likely the issue that sparked debate (and eventually animosity) between us.

It was her getting that Taser thread locked that convinced me I needed to start up my own education threads. I hate it when a good debate gets cut short and even more when someone has it stopped because she can't censor out the opposing POVs.

By contrast, my HS thread (in GD) is in its sixth day today, and no replies have been deleted and we're obviously not locked down. We attract more DU HSers nearly every day and the value of most contributions far outweighs the distractions she and her friends have created.

And we've been honoured with TalahassieGrannie sharing her POV on education. The lady is a gem and I am grateful for her contributions.

I think the discussion has been very healthy and certainly for some very illuminating.

(edit: clarification added)

on a high-achieving public school student.

She's been marked.

What the hell does that mean?

...I think it's great whenever anyone achieves their potential, or at least achieves a significant chunk of it.

I've never denied that the PS system works for some. I get hell for pointing out it -fails- some. I also get hell for pointing out the damage authoritarianism can do to the free spirit of a defenseless child.

But I'm already saying that in what appears to be a popular thread. Why say it in a thread that is celebrating the success of one child? -My- thread is celebrating the success of one HS child. She was the one who tried to disrupt the discussion. I didn't agree with her behaviour in my thread, so why imitate that behaviour in hers?

Now if she comes down on HSers as she has in my thread, I'll reconsider my decision. I don't agree with people stereotyping HS and not shy about saying so.

"She's been marked" - Her antipathy towards HSers is well-known among the DU HS community, or so I'm told. After my first run-in with her, where I demonstrated strong pro-HS opinions, I was privately warned about this by a DU HSer. Not just her antipathy, but her method of argument (if you can call it that) as well. The warning has proved accurate and I respect the individual who warned me.

I've also been told, privately, that DU HSers face a good deal of persecution and stereotyping here. I despise persecution of a harmless group. If that persecution is to end, I expect I'll have a part in ending it.

Not all free spirits lack spine, and having cut my eye-teeth defending the GLBT community in several very public forums (unmoderated) I really don't think I lack the skills needed to champion HS here.

I doubt 'she-who-must-not-be-named' will appreciate me for it, nor her friends. But my fate here is up to the mods, not her.

I will point out that amongst some of the DU HSers this is not an unwelcome development. I receive a good deal of encouragement. There may be those HSers who disagree with my effort. I'll deal with that if and when they let me know.

(edit: typo)

that there's some kind of a HSer whisper campaign via PMs. Whatever.

I get hell for pointing out it -fails- some.

No you don't. It *does* fail some, I'll admit that. Public education isn't perfect. You get hell for attacking it across the board and positing homeschooling as the perfect solution.

I also get hell for pointing out the damage authoritarianism can do to the free spirit of a defenseless child.

:eyes: Heaven forbid that a child learn to live by the rules of a community.

So champion homeschooling. I've known some folks for whom it worked, and some for whom it was a disaster. I'll continue to champion public schools - as often against those on my own side of the aisle as against the wingnuts.

And you are not doing very well at demonstrating this expertise here.

I don't recall trying to impress anyone when I answered your question. Persecuted people -do- find ways to communicate with one another. Persecution doesn't end a belief, it merely pushes it "underground".

These people care enough to warn others who seem in need of it. I fail to see how this should be a question of impressing anyone.

"No you don't. It *does* fail some, I'll admit that. Public education isn't perfect."

Gracious of -you- to admit it. Not all do. I've been told failing one in three is a success: that's a hell of a statement to support a belief that the PS system is not failing kids.

"You get hell for attacking it across the board and positing homeschooling as the perfect solution."

And here is your chance to prove what an expert on me you are. Find us a link to a quote of mine saying that.

In the meantime, try here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5523251&mesg_id=5525503

here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2288002&mesg_id=2289140

and here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2288002&mesg_id=2290548

"Heaven forbid that a child learn to live by the rules of a community"

Curious that you translate "authoritarianism" into "rules of the community". Helps me see where you are coming from ;-)

"So champion homeschooling..." you forgot to add "...against persecution". As the links above demonstrate, I do not advocate homeschooling as a cure-all. It is one of many options.

And I'm still not at all clear about why you tried to goad me into posting to her thread. Nothing about this exchange demonstrates the least bit of curiousity on your part. Shall I assume I'm being baited ;-)

As I said to 'she-who-must-not-be-named': "Must be tough dealing with a free spirit with a spine. I only wish there were more of us."

Your antipathy toward public schools is obvious and as well noted as you say proud's antipathy is toward you. Persecuted? Welcome to a public message board, ace.

And I have neither the interest nor the need to go looking for quotes of yours. You've made your postitions known well enough.

Curious that you translate "authoritarianism" into "rules of the community".

Even more curious that you see "authoritarianism" as a basic ingredient of the schools.

"Must be tough dealing with a free spirit with a spine. I only wish there were more of us."


Not at all. You, however, seem stunned to have found a few teachers who'll talk back to you. 'Elp, 'elp, I'm bein' repressed! :D

...ho hum.

Tell you what - let's get your exact thoughts on education in America; what's wrong with the public schools, how we can fix them (if you think we even should), what we teachers could be doing better. Here's your soapbox.

Sapphocrat has a very nice thread going here. I don't see the need to steer it off topic.

You are most welcome to post to my thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5523251&mesg_id=5564682

"CNN (AP): Homeschooled boy wins national science contest"

Indeed, all are welcome.

But bear in mind I am going to repost my earlier response that includes the links I've provided you in answer to your earlier statements if you choose to ask the above questions. I recommend you read the thread (we're currently at 271 responses, I think) before asking as it will avoid repetition.

We'll see you there (or not, should you decline).

that I'm a teacher. :D

And I've already posted on your thread. You might read it yourself some time.

...I'm sure there are lots and lots of people whose professions I don't know.

"And I've already posted on your thread."

Yes, I had to look close to find them. Two, actually.

Reply #76
"good on him. And how fortunate that he was homeschooled - had be been a public school student and won the award, he might never have been mentioned on DU."

Reply "78
"DeKalb's schools are damned fine."
(that's all you wrote for that one)

Are you complaining because these scintillating contributions failed to attract a response from me?

"You might read it yourself some time."

Given your earlier questions I might say the same to you.

I've read all the responses to my thread. You have not.

Now let's hope the general public does not stereotype the maturity of teachers based on your efforts to bait me, hmm?

Are you complaining because these scintillating contributions failed to attract a response from me?

I don't recall having complained, in fact. You seemed to have been under the misconception that I hadn't posted on your thread, and I simply pointed out to you that I had.

I've read all the responses to my thread.

You have now. :)

You have not.

Never said that I had.

Now let's hope the general public does not stereotype the maturity of teachers based on your efforts to bait me, hmm?

Don't get your panties in a wad. I simply wanted to make sure you hadn't missed the thread, since another misconception under which you seem to labor is that public schools educate poorly.

...to bait me. And as I think this sequence in Sapphocrat's thread amply displays the problems she is describing I'll give you the last word.

If you wish to take this up with me further, you know the thread where I'll be happy to continue.

And thank you for making my point so eloquently :-)

I'm simply trying to have a discussion with you.

flamewar.

Awesome.

...and he never made it to my thread.

So much for "...simply trying to have a discussion" with me ;-)

(edit to add: I notified Sapphocrat about it by PM when we'd hit Reply #68, some 10 responses prior to the ending.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5523251&mesg_id=5569958

If you're the impatient type and want to do a quick search of the page, the specific information responding to your charge starts after "And then we get to our prize:"

Enjoy.

Now I know I am confused.

Maybe it was a subconscious effort to avoid delving into the subject itself. Didn't work. LOL

and now that I do know, I can see why I didn't notice a difference in the GD vibe. I don't read all GD threads by any means (is it physically possible for one person to?), and I've long ago stopeed trying to understand pro-death penalty positions, especially American ones; so I've been passing over those threads.

From what little I've seen of the 'Tookie' story, I gather he killed people, quite viciously, and that there's no doubt that he did; but has since repented, and done a lot of work for peace and reconciliation the the 'gang' community. Those who want him reprieved, but think he's different from anyone else on death row, therefore seem to use the death penalty as a moral jugdement on someone's character, rather than anything to do with the law. This seems an incredibly old-fashioned and conservative point of view; but not one I can understand enough to enage in meaningful conversation. But I would think we all have to take that stance with some topics, on DU, and so this doesn't seem that different from normal.

...that if you have formed an opinion on DP one way or the other, it really is a black-and-white issue, regardless of which side you're on. We're very used to dealing in many shades of grey here (well, we like to think we are), yet there are two issues on which most of us can't or won't budge: abortion and the death penalty.

The reason seems clear: Once you get past all the arguments, justifications, and qualifications for your position, what we're talking about is really only one issue: life and death. To challenge another's convictions on life-and-death issues is to challenge his most ingrained beliefs about his own life, and the life of every other person -- its value, its temporal nature, its significance.

And while a pro-DPer can cherish life itself as much as any anti-DPer, it's all too easy for anyone on either side to feel his own life threatened -- albeit virtually, but it feels like the threat is literal. I think it must hit some "fight or flight" nerve.

So the pro- and anti-DP folks can argue until they ends of their own lives about the specifics of the Tookie case, or any other case, but I think anyone who really believes that the specifics matter at all is fooling him/herself. Our feelings can change, often dramatically, over time (mine have, completely, on both DP and abortion), but, for the time those feelings are set, they are set in stone.

That's my theory.

P.S. I'd put war third on the list, because while war is definitely a life-and-death issue, it too can be viewed in many shades of grey; ditto guns.

the death penalty and other issues. There's a lot of real passion among "legit" DUers about this but I think there's a lot of trollage too...

What threw me for a loop was seeing it come from longtime DUers who've traditionally been the peacemakers, the meek, etc.

talking about. I was here briefly last night and read alot, posted little, didn't see it. After I finally figured out what DP was, I post my opinion on it. An eye for an eye makes the world blind and leave it at that.

factor that was here last night. That's what the OP talks about.

and where bushitler is concerned, DAILY!

Hell, even I was surprised and I've been involved in a few pretty heated discussions here.

Part of the dynamics that result from interactions within large groups of people, especially when they are able to communicate anonymously.

But, I did notice last week that I was in an argument with three DUers at the same time.

There must be something in the water. To be tilting with THREE people at the same time is just embarrassing.

:rofl:

...extremely dextrous ;-)

That would call for the -king- sized bed, would it not?

=8-}

The pressure of darkness before the winter solstice is growing and heavy. We see it's effects with folks who have Seasonal Affective Disorder; this is the worst time of year for them. You'll see, after the 21st everyone will feel "sunnier."

Wow, I thought this was mostly a friendly place. Sometimes being out of the loop can be a good thing I guess. Oh the death penalty- sorry. Sorry it got so upsetting. Sometimes I think I want to be for it- when I hear horribly sad heartbreaking stories - and I sympathise for those who are for it based on that kind of happening,but I don't trust the various govenrments-state or national to apply it fairly at all (killings during robberies/ as opposed to torture of children etc.), and it is so final- Also I've heard some say it does NOT save money at all. Guess I might as well say that here-but won't discuss it- might look back at the other thread.
Dang our current govenrment is (likely - and should stand trial for) guilty of buring children to death with chemical weapons and other war crimes etc. so who's to say?

at least those are what Im feeling is tripping switches like crazy. I haven't even opened up a single DP thread the last week, I've been too busy bumping and grinding other topica.

Stress + Hot button issues makes for an enflamed and turbulent GD.

I got fed up with the AM brouhaha.

...the first bush, if not the Great Depression. And, speaking of depression, this is the peak season for it. How many of you are happy about your situation today? How many of you are getting to travel the way you want, or are able to give the gifts you want this year? I'm guessing less than more.

Speaking from personal experience, it is cathartic and even preventative of prison time to unload on someone here with whose opinion you disagree, at that moment if not entirely. Think of it like brothers wrestling over something stupid while the parents are getting divorced. At the end of the day, you're still brothers, you've got it out of your system, and it doesn't bother you so much that they don't accept your total supremacy because you tagged them good that one time.

I believe it has to do with snacking.

it is still quite tame around here. I have spent most of the last 3+ years on right leaning boards, GD is TAME.

...from what Sapph and I both saw last night (which triggered Sapph to post this) we really thought we had taken a wrong turn somewhere and ended up on some right wing board.

Believe me, it was bad.

...or to the Troll Board That Will Not Be Named, DU GD looks like bloody Sunday in the Park. :)

And I don't see what's "scary" about being here.

You'll have to ask the Lounge why it's so scary. LOL

Ether that, or it's the rum.

...and cuter too, when other people are drinking. :D

I was not drunk when I first laid eyes on you! Are you saying I have bad eyesight? Hmmmmmmmm!

Although how in the world you can still adore me so after seeing me at my absolute worst-- But that's not a subject for here. LOL

I was not biased the first night we met -- Little Ms didn't realize I was interested in her oh of little faith, butch woman!

DP issue. "Psychotic Past the Point of No Return" is right for some people. It wasn't even this bad during Katrina when emotions were running very high and nerves were shot all to hell. I don't get how some can treat fellow DUers this way. Everyone would do really well to take a look at my sigline.

Alcohol was fueling the fire last night.

I mean look at the impact it had here. Even though the outcome of this issue will not have a serious impact on the state of the death penalty in America.

Downing Street + Downing Street, Pt. II + Katrina + Traitorgate + 34% approval rating + Torture + Abramof + DeLay + more confirmation of massive election fraud with more to come + CunningScam + STILL NO FORMAL COMMITMENT FROM WASHINGTON TO GET US OUT OF IRAQ + trashed economy + broken healthcare + BUSH STILL IN OFFICE, GRINNING LIKE AN IDIOT EVERYDAY WHILE OUR TAXES PAY HIS SALARY = one pissed off group of folks. The tragedies of this week were the lit fuse on a powder keg.

I tell ya, the GOP needs to get its shit together, choose a new leader for the talking heads its fraud put into Congress last fall to follow and set about the Bush removal process. That's (sadly) in their court now and has been for months. If they don't take the initiative...never before have I felt as if revolution was so close. I hope Hastert is watching the news.

Lots of "f-u" feelings and short patience. I've seen it cycle through for 5 years now. I blame it on holiday stress, not necessarily what is going on in politics right now. Anyone else?