My theory on the Miami sky marshall shooting

A thought flashed into my mind as I read one of the latest stories about the Miami shooting (unfortunately I can't seem to find the link anymore but I think it was from an Orlando newspaper) with a few pertinent details:

- The 44 year old bipolar man who was shot and killed didn't say anything (let alone the b-word) near to a number of passengers as he pushed towards the plane's exit.

- The man's wife was saying "He's sick. He needs to get off the plane." before turning back and getting a bag that was left behind. During these critical seconds, shouting was heard further ahead by the passengers being quoted followed by the gunfire. Could a different split second decision have made a difference? Quite possibly not as I relate below;

- The man seemed scared and wanted nothing more but to get off the plane.

But WHY would he want to get off the plane that badly?

My theory: He was having an episode and thought that someone had planted a bomb on the plane and it was about to blow.

Whether the word was "blow" or perhaps even "bomb", if sky marshalls were moving to challenge him and he said something like, "There's a bomb, I need to get out," then everything after - and likely, within miliseconds, everything preceding - the word "bomb" was forgotten. Out came the guns. The suspect (because that's now what he was) was ordered to get down. The 44 year old, scared out of his mind (and not in his right mind to begin with), does not comply and attempts to flee.

So they shoot him.

Now, if I'm right, I would find the cops extremely difficult to criticize in this situation; I can only imagine that their training - 9/11 changed everything, remember - was to verbally challenge the suspect and, if he would not immediately comply and there was any remote chance of him triggering a bomb (like by reaching into a bag), to shoot him dead. To borrow from the White House's defense, the sky marshalls acted consistent with their training. The training likely conceived that this situation could happen in real life but, it wasn't worth implanting hesitation into the sky marshalls and risk far more lives, than to try and conceive a situation like, well, this one. Not bad cops - rather, one hell of a bad situation.

I just don't think that under the pressures, expectations, and training doctrines that sky marshalls are under, that they could have properly differentiated between "I have a bomb" and "There is a bomb". The doctrines are not public but, the Bush administration's pressures and expectations to do whatever it takes to protect the public, even if "mistakes are made," most certainly is public knowledge. These doctrines encourage police officers to shoot with the confidence that even if their immediate belief that there is a threat proves mistaken, this will still not constitute a "bad shoot". Given that police officers are humans and not saints, I believe we would be unreasonable to call their actions in this situation - a Murphy's Law parade - irresponsible.

Of course this is just my theory. I'm extrapolating from news reports; hopefully the FBI won't mess this up and will get to the bottom of this. Also, we can extrapolate from the "consistent with their training" line. I believe this to be true; for that reason, I don't expect either officer to ever need fear charges over this tragic situation.

person on that airplane and in that airport.

Seriously, after the London underground shooting, they tasered a bombing suspect in some other part of England and the metropolitan London police gagged and loudly proclaimed it was nuts and should never have been done, exactly on these grounds. Now whether they're full of it in that case, I don't know, but I can see why on a plane, they'd be extremely wary of taking any "chances".

And more to the point, tasers aren't guaranteed to take a guy down with one zap, providing a bad guy with enough time to possibly trigger a bomb. Again, the procedures are this "better safe than sorry" stuff where the powers that be are satisfied that there may be a bipolar guy shot and killed here and there, but that it'll still be worth it in the long run. I'm not even sure they're wrong, frankly, as bad as it sounds. You just wish the cops on the ground could've found a way not to shoot like programmed machines but, if the training's meant to make them into programmed machines, can we call the results a surprise? And like I said, the training's classified, so that's "if".

cops are patently ridiculous; they're so afraid all that bang bang they carry just makes everybody nervous. there's something wrong in our society, and the bully boy police who betray their own class to serve the pig are part of it....the MAN pretends like 'criminals' aren't part of society, as if they and their family friends don't exist, or don't matter, though they must number in the tens of millions....kids grow up knowing this, and hate is natural result.....

Quite possible that it went something like you present.But with a five year shit-train of lies behind us and three years to go it's hard not to be sceptical about anything coming from this maladministration.

Someone below posts that since he was bipolar other reasons might've been more likely but... well, let me put it another way. If he WASN'T reacting to some sort of imagined peril, then the whole bomb part may have been (and not even necessarily through malice, this is just the way eyewitness stuff tends to work in crisis situations) a figment of the imagination of the officers involved. What the man actually said MIGHT have had nothing to do with that. I hope the FBI finds out either way. I'd hate to see this messed up and possible lessons learned going unlearned.

Almost all law enforcement officers receive training in both spotting and dealing with the mentally ill, just so scenarios like this one do not occurr. Either the officers failed to use this training, in which they were grossly negligent, or they didn't have the training in which case the FAM program itself is grossly negligent. This is standard training, rudimentary law enforcement stuff, not something esorteric. Helleven one of the witnesses was stating that the man didn't appear to be a threat, he appeared paniced as hell. Big warning sign right there that you have a person with some serious problems.

Sorry, but this one is inexcusable in my book, and really quite chilling. How many mentally ill fly each day? How many diabetics and hypoglycemics fly each day when they're experiencing serious sugar/insulin problems? How many people who are phobic of flying still fly each day? Each of these conditions and many many more can contribute to somebody having a panic attack/psychotic episode. And now, each and every one of these people, could be me, could be you, are now in danger of their life from a bunch of ill-trained, trigger happy goons. Fly the friendly skies my ass. I think I'll be staying on the ground unless absolutely, positively I have to fly. I don't want to be mistaken for a terrorist just because I raise my voice.

some sort of identifying garb... a straight jacket perhaps??? Sheeeesh.

jump out of my seat grabbing my carry on bag and run off the plane just before take off about 8 years ago. I posted that if I'd done that now, I'd be dead because I could have been assumed to have "planted something" before I ran off the plane in panic.

Lots of folks dissed me saying that I didn't say I had a bomb, and that if I'd seen an Air Marshall with a gun I would have stopped and done what they said. I replied on the post that I felt I couldn't breath and that I wouldn't have stopped for anything. Besides...8 years ago...I wouldn't have encountered an Air Marshall with a gun because that was before 9/11.

Now it turns out that this could have been what happened..

And now it is becoming clearer and clearer that this poor guy didn't even say a damn thing about a bomb, he just wasn't compliant with the AMs, and paid the ulitmate price.

I am fortunate that I have not underlying conditions that would force me into rushing off the plane. But being 6'5", 260 pounds, I'm a big guy, and have been told that I can look quite scary, especiall if I'm pissed. I have a loud voice to go along with this, and I can just see me getting on a plane, complain about something, and these hyperanxious AMs cap my ass because they percieve the big guy as a threat. I've had guns pulled on me by police who have pulled me over simply because of my size(I was on bike at time), I can see this one happening easily. No way in hell will I be getting on a plane now unless I'm going overseas, and maybe even then I'll take a boat.

Good luck to you friend, and be careful. I hate to say it, but maybe you need to avoid planes also. These bastards have made it unsafe to fly.

Not schizophrenic.

More than likely he was having a manic episode due to an argument with his wife - not due to the idea of a bomb. My two bits anyway.

Someone needs to account for what he said, though...

re: the post above about training to spot mental illness: Yeah well, like I said, they say 9/11 changed everything. I wouldn't be surprised if there's additional pressure to err on the side of caution. I just think we expect someone to a) take responsibility for that, b) do something about it, in vain. I don't think they'll change a thing because the government seems quite happy with the results.

If you buy the rationale that 911 changed everything, then you are well on your way to becoming an American sheeple, and the terrorist have already won. Country after country deal with terrorism a lot more frequently, and long before 911. And yet we don't see the vast majority of them shooting down innocent citizens in cold blood.

And no, they won't change a thing unless we the people raise a stink about this sort of tragedy. The longer we stay silent on this matter, the more common it will become, and pretty soon we're living in a police state where we will be shot for going over the speed limit.

Don't buy the spin on this one. Write your reps, write LTTEs,, scream from the highest hill. Otherwise it could be you next, laying in a pool of your own blood.

She has been known to have paranoid delusions. Bipolar disorder is not always as easy to explain, diagnose or treat as the media would have us believe. My mother has been battling this condition since she was 15 years old. There is no cure. The best you can hope for is that the right combination of meds at any given time will keep you functional.
My heart breaks for this mans family, but through all of this, I can't find the Air Marshalls to be 100% responsible for what transpired. I've seen episodes where my poor mother is absolutely convinced that some tragedy or another is unfolding, and you can't get her to understand that what she believes to be absolutely true is a complete fabrication of something going on inside her head. You can't reach her, and you can't shake her out of it, and to the rest of the world, this sweet lady is as 'normal' as the day is long. She doesn't drool or roll her eyes or babble. She just sees from a different perspective. You can't tell she's bipolar. It's not like they wear uniforms or anything. Sometimes, as humans, we all just do the best we can, and hope for the best. And when tragic mistakes like this occur, we hope we can learn from it.
Peace.

I've seen episodes where my poor mother members of DU is are absolutely convinced that some tragedy or another is unfolding, and you can't get her them to understand that what she they believes beleive to be absolutely true is a complete fabrication of something going on inside her head their heads. You can't reach her them, and you can't shake her them out of it, and to the rest of the world, this sweet lady is these sweet people are as 'normal' as the day is long.

Sounds like half of DU when you put it that way.

whatever it takes to protect the public."

"The doctrines are not public but, the Bush administration's pressures and expectations to do whatever it takes to protect the public, even if 'mistakes are made,' most certainly is public knowledge." --Kagemusha

I don't believe the premise. The Bush regime, instead, is seeking to do "whatever it takes" to instill fear and terror in the public--to frighten, to intimidate, to propagandize, to cower--so they can loot us, and murder people at will--especially vulnerable people who own the resources they want to steal, or who get in their way.

They are torturing people and beating them to death, as I write this, in secret prisons in middle Europe and who knows where else, on the same false premise--to "protect the public." But we have no idea who these people are, who are being imprisoned and tortured. They could be enemies of Chevron. They could be whistleblowers on Cheney's dirty arms dealings. We have absolutely no reason to trust what Bushites say about it.

Further, their withholding of aid--their murderous neglect--during Katrina, established clearly, to my view, that "protecting the public" is the furthest thing from their minds. LOOTING the public is their goal.

So, whatever hair-brained training they are giving to air marshals and other security personnel is not likely aimed at "protecting" us, and is much more likely aimed at terrorizing us--ESPECIALLY given their penchant for destroying the integrity of government systems, hiring toadies, rewarding yes-men, purging those who are honest and competent at what they do, and corrupting and gutting everything that we have created for the common good.

I'd put money on the bet that the "training" that resulted in this unnecessary death can be traced right up the chain of command to some incompetent, corrupt, Bushite asshole, hired by a private, corrupt, Bushite asshole "Homeland Security" contractor whose CEO and board members have lots of our money in Swiss banks right now, probably converted into gold.

The only reason I said it at all is because it speaks to the mind of the INDIVIDUAL POLICE OFFICERS involved in THIS incident.

Frankly, I don't see that kind of "mistakes are okay too" attitude as helpful but, I'd be a blind fool to not recognize that this administration encourages pulling the trigger without hesitation, whether we're talking sky marshalls or infantry in Iraq.

I'm sorry, you're making me out to be some kind of apologist. That wasn't the point at all.

(Edited for mistaken double negative.)

IMO, the sky marshalls are culpable. I'm not encouraged that many of them are former prison guards either. (per Randi Rhodes).

What the government has to say on this matter is worthless to me. They have lied so much that I no longer believe anything they say.

The people in charge are Bushite cronies, sadists or terrorists themselves. (I call those who abduct people off the street and take them to another country to be tortured, "terrorists". I don't know how anyone else would define them.

If nothing else, Katrina should have taught us that we're on our own. No one is governing. They only wish to rule.

even in the case there was some "indication" of an eventual bomb, shooting the suspect doesn't solve anything.
It wouldn't prevent the eventual bomb to go by having him dead. Talking might do it.

The first reaction should be "where ?" not "bang". Because if there was a botched attempt, a last minute remorse, something positive could be done and save lives.

What if "bang, bang, bang" and them "boom" ?

In all those cases (plenty of similar exemples from Iraq) I don't know of any cases where the shooting have prevented deaths (unless in OBVIOUS regular attacks with cars), but caused the deaths of plenty of completely innocent people. You can take the story of the Italian reporter as a typical example.

Besides the marshals don't have to shoot to kill, they should be trained and have the skills to stop somebody by shooting at the legs. There are plenty of examples in Europe when even armed and threatening people have been immobilized that way. And later put on trial.

I can only draw one conclusion of this event : another example of blatant incompetence and lack of respect for human life. There are NO excuses. This happens MOSTLY in America or where American forces are involved. How other countries manage to deal with similar situations without killing innocents (besides some exceptions of course) is of course a mystery to US authorities. A clue is : think first, shoot later. Not the contrary. And I don't think it has to do primarily with the Bush administration. The later makes it only worse.

I don't know what intel these people have but, they seem to think that it's a lot more likely that a person's carrying some sort of manual detonation device than using a timer and, if he IS using a timer, he's not likely to turn the timer off if you ask nicely.

Or they weren't thinking at all and just shot him for non-compliance. Frankly, I wouldn't know. I just don't feel like ignoring all the civilians who are encouraged by the idea sky marshalls won't hesitate. This is a tragic incident but not a tragic accident. It's a product of a long list of things. But, I just am not sure that your solution is one to use in regards to airplane bombing (?) situations. If there even is a good solution, ultimately.

I just feel in my gut - though neither of us truly know - that the marshals aren't trained to stop someone short of killing them because "the stakes are too high". (As I said in another post, god, I'm not "buying it", I'm putting it in quotations because I don't buy it without thinking.) I just doubt the actual individual marshals are really the people we should blame here. I imagine they have it drilled into them to shoot if they have any doubt the suspect might manually trigger a bomb.

besides the shoebomber didn't have to be shot. And he had a timing device : his lighter. He was overpowered with simple manual force.

In the latest case, it didn't make sense to make a explode a plane on the ground either. But I can agree about the fact that the primary blame goes to the people that trained them. They are the product of paranoia and the lack of accountability. The British forces during Gulf War used to say that they were mostly afraid of US friendly fire. Most of the Allies casualties happened exactly for that reason, not from the fire of the Iraquis.

I think that it is important to see that we have to deal here with a pattern, not an "accident" in very peculiar circumstances.

If he'd bought a Bic before he went aboard, one less airplane.

And that's a poor man's detonator, not a timing device. Small difference. And yes, these are technicalities only. This is still chiefly a case of acceptable losses vs. ideal results, and how lazy or not western civilization is about achieving better results.

What is the function of air marshalls? Is it to stop a bombing on a plane? If that is their primary function, I say, get rid of them. If that man had a bomb, he could have blown up the plane at any time. Why would he first tip his hand to the marshalls, then try to blow up the plane? A person who boards a plane with a bomb and the intent to blow up the plane is most likey going to succeed. You have to stop them from boarding the plane. You have to identify him before he boards the plane.

After 9/11, my understanding was that the marshalls were to prevent hijackings. Certainly, armed marshalls on the 9/11 flights could have stopped the hijackers who were armed with razors or something.

If the function of the marshalls is to prevent a hijacking, they have more time to react if there is no weapon in sight. They don't have to make split second decisions when there is no weapon. If the function of the marshalls is to prevent bombings; I think the marshalls are the wrong way to go about it.

that we are so fuckin afraid of a damn bomb on the plane we willingly and support the shooting of an innocent man because we are so afraid there is a bomb to take us down. we shrug a shoulder to the loss of this man because the group as a whole was protected. do you see the ironic in your thought process that this man's high anxiety of the thought a bomb might be on the plane and he had to get off, he was shot dead. how many flights, how many bombs, yet people are dying and there are no bombs. just the fear

this is what bothers me

this atmosphere.

i am not into blaming the marshals anymore than the people that are willing to sacrifice this mans life without any guilt because of their "preceived" safety