Supporting Death Penality makes us no better than rogue terrorist nations

Gandhi once said "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" So why are there members of DU still blind to this barbarbic practice and show support for it? I am not here to support anyone on death row. Hell, I'm pretty scathing against Mumia supporters, something very common living in the Philadelphia regions.

But what I can't understand is why we want our country to be no better than the rogue, third-world nations which are the few countries that still support this barbaric practice of killing criminals.

Read these facts from Amnesty International and you can see that we are in a class of countries where civil rights are few and far between. The only other industrialized nation that supports the death penalty is Japan. Most of Europe has abolished using the death penalty.


http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng

Executions have been carried out by the following methods since 2000:

- Beheading (in Saudi Arabia, Iraq)
- Electrocution (in USA)
- Hanging (in Egypt, Iran, Japan, Jordan, Pakistan, Singapore and other countries)
- Lethal injection (in China, Guatemala, Philippines, Thailand, USA)
- Shooting (in Belarus, China, Somalia, Taiwan, Uzbekistan, Viet Nam and other countries)
- Stoning (in Afghanistan, Iran)


+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Let us not be blind. There are still people on death row that have been wrongly convicted AND there seems to be a skewed proportion of minorities on death row. Tookie Williams may not be the poster child for death penalty reform but he has turned his life around and now has become a major anti-gang advocate.

We need to put an end to this barbaric practice. How are we suppose to be the leaders of the free world when we still do such barbaric practices such as the death penalty

considering we are a rogue terrorist nation.

...to turn their lives around. Because of him--his actions alone. They are dead dead dead. And their families' lives have suffered irreparable harm because of his actions alone. They do not have the chance to write children's books or profess epiphany. (And I believe Mr. Williams has not yet even admitted his actions--nor helped the police with gang activity--so I am not sure I take to that notion of "turning his life around.") He has the chance for improvement and growth and life; because of him they are cold and dead and buried and their families suffer.

The neo-cons use your same argument with regard to abortion: people who believe in abortions are terrorists.

Having said all of that--I agree that there are people who have been found to be innocent in prison. With the new technology, we may have a chance to fix some of those injustices. And I do not trust those currently in power to do justice. They are unjust and bigfatliars.

I'm not justifying what he did. I'm just trying to justify how we can be so harsh when it comes to putting another person to death.

I've mentioned several times at how Matthew Shepard's father spoke against using the death penalty against one of the boys who brutally assaulted his son and left him to die tied to a fence post outside of Laramie Wyoming.

Heck my very own state representative even spoke out against putting the boy (he was just under 18 when he did the crime) to death who murdered her very own granddaughter.

If these people can find it in their hearts too spare the people who took something so precious away from them then I can barely see how I can ask that we kill another simpily because the 'punishment fits the crime'

And on an edit note: your argument is how neo-cons justify torture. I mean, hell it's ok because these people were going to hurt us anyways. And believe me - all the neo-cons support torture even though someone like Rick Santorum can't vote for it because it'll destroy his re-election bid.

murdered as he did. I was with a victim the other day who was speaking at her husband's sentencing. He received 15 years in prison for raping his daughters on a nearly daily basis over many years. She talked about how she still loved him and forgave him. Her daughters sat behind her--betrayed by her words. His actions ruined their lives and they will suffer life long consequences. I cannot muster sympathy for Mr. Williams.

The perpetrators always redeem themselves once they are caught. Too bad he could not have redeemed himself before he took those innocent lives.

we're just asking that we put this barbaric practice to an end. Tookie will never be a free man again and hopefully the profits from those anti-gang books he has written have gone to help the victims of his crime

And I cannot do that.

On Edit: and I have read post after post professing sympathy for Mr. Williams. The victims have been lost and forgotten in this frenzy.

and not like the rogue nations out there that still support the death penalty in which the United States is part of that group.

Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Shall we continue blinding the world?

Hey, even Jesus found it in himself to forgive those who hung him on the cross

If my state representative can do it why can't you? (for those who don't know, the person who murdered her granddaughter had his life spared because he just under the age of 18 when the crime was committed and the Supreme Court says that crimes committed by minors could not be be punished with the death penalty)

Hell if Jesus Christ could do it then why are you so challenged?

Hanging on to hatred and vindictiveness does not help victims. Forgiveness is essential to healing and if you don't know that, you're in the wrong line of work. Nobody forgets the victims, that's just another rallying cry that has vengeance lurking underneath, just like those who say 9/11 has been forgotten.

We have over 2 million people in prison because every victims' rights group insists that their perpetrators committed the worst possible crime. Nobody wants to look at the fact that it isn't working, and the more we insist on locking everybody up the more we're unable to keep the worst offenders locked up for the time they really need to be behind bars.

Fixing the system is actually going to take people like you to get out of the way so that rational minds can step in and create a system that helps those who deserve help and keeps the rest away so they can't hurt anybody else.

I don't know which side those girls' perpetrator fell on, but I do know 15 years is a very long sentence for most child molestors.

I am not hanging on to hatred and vindictiveness. It is bigger than that. It has nothing to do with forgiveness or healing (you don't know me but I am known for my forgiving nature). It is about justice.

I think that it is not something in your lexicon. You keep reducing it to vengence and hatred. I think perhaps that is why you are against it. It is not about vengence or hatred.

YOu talk about the 2 million in prison there because of victim rights groups. What happened to accountability? People can get help in prison if they choose to. People who are in prison are generally there only after probation / treatment failed again and again. People do not languish in prison unless they want to.

What about accountability?

You suggest that I need to step out of the way so that rational minds can take over? The personal attacks indicate to me that you are not of a rational mind. And that you have an archaic vision of prison. It is a system of services that is set up for drug offenders / sex offenders/ domestic violent offenders. The treatment is there for the taking.

Forgiving the child molestors does not mean put our children at risk. 15 years is not insignificant. Neither is the life-long harm he has done to those kids.

It takes "people like me" to protect our children. Are you willing to have him at your home? If not, I suggest you stop judging me.

And, I am not a victim advocate.

Oh my gosh. You're the second person today who has tried to run this kind of line on how great prison is. NO, treatment is NOT there for the taking. It is very difficult to get treatment in prison, and even when you do, it's very difficult to fully participate because of the atmosphere in prison. The vulnerability required for treatment to be successful is the exact opposite of what is necessary to survive in prison.

I don't boil it down to hatred and vindictiveness, every death penalty or tough on crime advocate I've ever heard does that with the very words that come out of their mouth. They can barely conceal their glee over inflicting the greatest punishment on any given individual.

The sentence for every crime cannot be prison or lengthy stays in prison. I happen to be an advocate for life in prison for 2nd offense child molestors and think we could do that if we didn't have so many other people in prison for petty crimes. If the victims' rights groups of various crimes can't provide the objectivity required to prioritize who needs to be in prison, then some of them need to step out of the way.

But what I objected to, with you personally, is your distortion of the mother's forgiveness as a betrayal to the daughters. It is possible for her to forgive the husband and support the daughters. I hope your own attitudes aren't inadvertently driving a wedge between the mother and daughters as well. The girls certainly don't need to be pushed to forgive at all, but if their mother truly has, they shouldn't be encouraged to believe that is a betrayal either.

What I said was that the daughters felt betrayed by their mother--and later said so, very loudly and tearfully. You assumed that I distorted the facts--not so. I reported what happened.

My attitudes: you are making many assumptions about my relationship with these people--and your assumptions are wrong. I am not a victim advocate. And they are unaware of my feelings.

"How great prison is?" Who said that? I did not say that. I said that there are many treatment options in prison--and it is not hard to get treatment in prison. As much as you would like to so believe. Prison is for people who are a threat to the community.

"Glee at inflicting the greatest punishment"...wow you sound bitter. I wonder what your history is. I have never been "gleeful" when justice is exacted. There are never any winners. The dead are still dead and no matter how much time a person gets in prison(the life long consequences I discussed earlier). The raped are still in pain and the consequences of the attacks are life-long. So, gleeful is never my response.

"People in prison for petty crimes" I am not sure where you are from, but in WA there is a 50% good time rate for those in prison for "petty crimes." The sentences are long for rapists and murders. (And the Reagan Drug offense sentencing scheme). We have a second-strike statute for certain violent crimes. And those who rape and molest children under 12 are on probation for life. I am an advocate of treatment when there is not a threat to the community.

You have mis-judged me. You have made assumptions about me and my beliefs that are incorrect.

That's what you said. You did not say that is what the girls felt at all. Regardless, they still need help in working through that, not any sort of "advocacy" that would increase the animosity.

No, the Washington State Prison system does not have treatment for anybody, at any time. I am sooo well aware of Washington State in more ways than I ever cared to be due to my step-son and his mother. And his uncle who was a Walla Walla guard for years, and mine as well. It just is not what you describe at all. Except for the life long sentencing structure, which I don't completely disagree with.

I have to go out for the evening. I am glad those girls have somebody to rely on, truly.

for there to be no more people like Tookie Williams.

We're simply asking that we do not use inhumane methods of punishment found normally in third world rogue nations. We're a better country than that. Murdering as a form of punishment makes us murderers. Come on, we're better than that!

If we have sanctioned murder by the state how are we to say murder is wrong? The other side of the coin is that the death penalty gives mercy to the murderer. Let them live in prison, let them hear about family members passing, marrying etc while they are locked up.

Just as the of drugs can be both illegal and legal. Just as the use of force can be both legal and illegal. It is different.

If you continue your argument to its logical conclusion, however, you are arguing that it is more cruel to keep them locked up in prison forever. Since the basis for the anti-death penalty stance is in-part cruelty, how can you justify keeping them locked up forever?

than the murderers we are putting to death.

You don't need to forgive these people and you don't need to let them ever have their freedom again. Hell, you don't even have to like them.

But when will you realize that by allowing the death penalty we basically become murderers ourselves?

it is about justice.

They have justice served with life in prison.

That's the only reason to lock people up to begin with, society has a right to protect itself from those who have proven they will do harm. That's it, that's all. Cruelty needn't have anything to do with it. And before you say we shouldn't have to pay for somebody's comfy surroundings, think of what we pay with a revolving door justice system. The cops, courts, financial loss, insurance, and just plain old community breakdown and human suffering. Club Med would be cheaper by comparison, especially to live in a society where you had peace of mind again.

They're the ones who parole murderers that are sentenced life in prison after 10 to 20 years, just to save the tax angst tax dollars..

:thumbsup:

I thought we were kinda on the ousts because of my bitching with the last protest and the overload of extra speakers at the rally. But I really do care

sorry if i was a dick, but that is one of my pet peeve topics (not because I am a huge fan of ANSWER either). but i dont wanna get into all of THAT this am..so much other stuff getting me all wound up. :P

anyways this is a great post!

I can see why society disregards the families of the murder victims when it comes to executions because in the first place it's NOT supposed to be about revenge, so even if the families demand clemency, they shall be denied because it's not about them. It's about us. It's about society. (And that is where the arguments that society ought not be cruel properly kick in...)

However, in the Crips founder case, I have to wonder if clemency is not also... a position which promotes the continued physical health of the members of the victim's families... I wouldn't know, but I imagine that, too, is a reason why society has decided to reject family pleas on these issues. This still leaves plenty of ground to argue re: this being a barbaric practice... a practice some people believe to be, in limited cases, just.

to fight for abolition of the DP while using Tookie as my platform. I think the arguments against the DP can stand 100% on their own, and don't need the assistance of a brutal murdering piece of shit to help bolster them.

Other than that, I am 100% with you. The DP is savage, barbaric, unfair and puts permanently at risk those with the chance to have proven their innocence.

Living in the Philly region you can't have a protest without the free Mumia people showing up which is usually Ramona Africa, a few of her ilk and a bunch of surburban kids trying to look rebellious. At least Tookie is using himself as a voice against gangs whereas Mumia is just an asshole.

But personally I think the death penalty is not the answer. We are no better than rogue third-world nations allowing this practice to happen. And there is no proof that it is useful against detering crime.

This is especially important with regards to the death penalty.

but is a Blood sacrifice for votes when a politician promises to kill prisoners in custody if elected

America is very, very different than the "rogue, terrorist" nations. Just because we have the DP does not make us their equal. We don't kill people for ridiculous religious reasons. We don't oppress our women the way they do, we have freedom of speech, we have the bill of rights. Our courts grant an almost unlimited amount of appeals to even the most patently guilty people before execution. The ONLY thing we have in common with them is the death penalty. To act as if this one thing makes us the equal of the psycho, evil despots and their insane religious minions in the Middle East is absolutely fucking ludicrous.

we're getting there! I mean geez, we actually have to have a political debate on whether we should allow torture??!! That should be a fricking no-brainer. And believe me, if this discussion was held after the 2006 election there would have been more than 9 republican senators supporting it. They just don't want to have to deal with it during election time.

Death Penalty does prevent crime. It is an inhumane practice whose time has come and gone. When you look at Amnesty International and their list of countries who practice the death penalty, outside of us you are not seeing civilized industrial nations. You are seeing nations that use inhumane practice to deter crime.

It's time we put this to an end. Plus, it's been shown several times that it's alot cheaper to give these guys life in prison because all those appeals aren't free. Our tax dollars usually end up paying for them over and over and over again.