Something is amiss

I am going to preface this mini rant by mentioning that I am a Christian. I enjoy church, the music (especially) and the ritual, and the fellowship. So this is not an anti-Christian piece.

I live in the deep south very close to three mega churches and one more being built that is so huge I think God probably lives there. I have noticed that the three established churches all have big pre-printed banners on their lawn about Narnia. Now I love CS Lewis and read Narnia as a child and I read it as a teacher. It is a marvelous fantasy. And of course I know it is allegorical, but I certainly don't bring that out when I read it in a public school, and as far as I am concerned the allegory takes second stage to the story. The story stands alone. These signs all say the same thing, that this Sunday they will begin with a sermon about the allegory and then evidently follow a study guide of some sort. In other words, this is a packaged deal they have purchased or perhaps it has been given to them by the film's marketing initiative. So this is how this movie is being marketed... at the mega churches. Now I am wondering if they will give Happy Meals out at Holy Communion with little Narnia figures.

Since when has Hollywood produced curricula for Sunday School, with product merchandising? You know, I have been to a couple of those churches for funerals and was taken aback by the moving screens, PowerPoints and slide presentations, black ceilings with stage lighting, massive sound systems and singers who walk the stage with a mike, emoting and gesturing. Wow. This is a far cry from the choir boys with red bows I was brought up with. Now, I do know that the history of the liturgy is based in performance. There is no doubt that a church service, no matter how sacred, is also a performance. But the churches I am used to have a sense of the sacred, of quiet places steeped in prayer. These places are so media savy that it bears no resemblance to the experience I call "church." I also understand that sytlistic differences in churches has always been a big reason for folks to choose one over the other..but this Hollywood-izing of church frankly freaks me out. I personally have a rule. If the church has a drum set by the altar, I don't go there. Instead of appealing to our spiritual core, this to me appeals to a whole different level of the mind. And it is the part of the brain that I believe leads us to follow blindly, like sheep, without thinking. I don't think I am overstating it to even suggest brainwashing and mind control. It is creepy. It is scary. It looks so nice and clean and American. But it is deadly dangerous.

Now, you add product merchandising to the whole thing it becomes all mixed up with money, Madison Avenue, GNP and all kinds of crazy stuff. I can well understand why some DU'ers are completely freaked about this whole concept and why they paint all Christianity with the same broad brush.

The church I was brought up in was a quiet, reflective time of the week for me. It had nothing to do with what movies I watched and what toys I played with and what TV shows I watched. These places want to control it all. I hate it. I really really hate that the church experience has been reduced to this. And I guess this is being played around the country, everywhere.

And I have absolutely no idea what to do about it.

get out your wallet

maybe you can buy your way into "heaven."

bidniz

it would be a shame to come up one little $20 doodad short of Paradise.

(note that religion does not equal spirituality)

I had no idea they were marketing this way, but I can't say I'm surprised.

brain-washing disguised as "popular" religion. These "churches" and their services remind me of nothing more than the 1936 Nuremberg rally. High-tech visuals, loud music, and not a conscious thought to be had, just propaganda.

Frankly, the traditional "bells & smells" services are more inspiring, and usually have better quality music.

became the first Holy Roman Emperor.

Nothing new here. Just updated for our times.

services are quiet and also have the benefit of centuries of tradition. To me, faith is an inner thing and if I need high tech and Hollywood to access it, then it is phony.

And no doubt about the music. I was once forced to attend a "singing Christmas tree." You haven't lived in the South until you see one of these things. And the bastards (YES, I MEANT TO SAY THAT) rearranged the Bach Christmas Oratorio! It sounded like a soundtrack. I almost fainted. I literally had to pop an ativan to keep from throwing stuff.

They offer a little of something for several demographics. Often they are broken down into different groups of "worshipers" who may never actually interact with one another. I think it's all about the money. There must be bible colleges with a Mega Church 101 class that all these "pastors" take.

particularly spiritual or uplifting to me.

It's hard for me to understand that it is considered spiritual by other people.

I never left a rock concert thinking that the entertainment embodied "the meaning of life and death". Or that the performers representd what God expected of me.

However, I too grew up in a more quiet, contemplative religious tradition.

I like my church because we're big for us but we're not small either to where you never see someone like that. We have around 500 regular size audience on Sunday mornings and about 300 stay for Bible studies. I personally like the "old fashioned" way because I feel like I can participate too and not just be at a show. If I wanted to go and see a religious show I could go to an Amy Grant concert or something.

bulletin inserts in every bulletin last week to promo the movie. She called to ask me what in the world it was and if it really was Christian. She's not familiar with the story and she thought the images looked very strange.

see that is why i love being an episcopalian -- i love liturgy, guys in flowing gowns swinging purses on fire, parading with crosses, etc.

everybody gathers for the eucharist{only liberal episcopalian} -- sometimes you stand next to a drag queen coming in from a late night,
sometimes you are the drag queen, waggling fingers at the kids -- at the end of the service you leave -- hug the priest -- it's a woman{and maybe a lesbian}.

the music is loud and classic -- the choirs are full of traditional robes -- definetly red at the holidays.
the boys choirs even have those cute ruffled collars at the neck.

and a good time was had by all!

teach Christianity may have just dealt a death blow to THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA being used in the public school now, too.

In reality, I believe you are correct. The only reason for the mega churches is money. When you get a congregation of more that three to five hundred people (including children) you have a church that has become impersonal and unable to fulfill a spiritual role for its parishioners.

:thumbsup:

would they know him?....or hustle him out like a homeless person who wandered in off the street?.....

and if he was lucky he might get a hit off the food pantry

that were put up for the traveling 'Elmer Gantry' type preachers. Those preachers were performers and people loved it. The only thing that has changed is the structure they preach in.

as you, it seems so far away from anything I learned growing up in the church. I left it all behind years ago when this kind of stuff started happening. I do miss some things about it but not enough to go back.

I wanted to go to this movie, was excited about it but now I think I will wait until I can watch it at home. Something tells me sitting in the theater you will not be bothered by bratty kids or adults gossiping to each other but by choruses of "Praise Jesus" and "Thy will be done" and I just can't take that, not anymore. I could be wrong about that but I simply do not want to take the chance.

we can always take a field trip and go hear some of that Christian karoake. The food at that place was great. :)

Food? GAG!

I actually have no problem with religion, I have my own sort of belief system that comes from a mixture of a whole lot of them. It is the "organized" part that always screws it up. Setting up a power structure is just not going to make any brand of religion work because someone always comes along and takes that power for themselves.

and less than $5.

and this THING that is happening now, this drive to control everyone and everything in the name of Christianity. Maybe when we're talking about the latter, we could use Xtianity.

My partner is a Christian and he's appalled at what is being done in the name of his faith. I'm a recovering Catholic and feel just about the same way.

We need a way to talk about this that distinguishes between spirituality and mendacity. :(

of the term Talibornagains however it might get you into a lot more trouble than it is worth. Neo-Christians? Regressives?

I'm usually in trouble anyway. :9

Can't help myself it seems! :)

I do think it's nice that the Christian community is growing in areas and they have the music scene and have an alternative for people who don't care for secular music. There is some good secular music but a lot of it has to do with sex, drugs, making money, etc. and people just don't care for that and the only really decent music out there in secular is some country and tenniebopper stuff. The only thing I don't like is how they're wanting to take over my government and take away other people's rights to worship how they see fit.

:)

How much of that money could have been used to help the poor instead of sophisticated sound systems, lighting, and all the high technology one could buy for a theater production?

is so large..gosh, it has to be 15000 square feet. Maybe more. It's bigger than the school I teach in. I'm thinking 50 million dollars to build at least. I know my school was about 3 or 4 million ten years ago.

No mortgage. Think about the money these churches raise for these mega facilities and the time it takes to raise it. It just makes me ill. When I drive by these religious palaces, instead of a building, I see food for hungry children and blankets for homeless people and homes for Katrina victims. No wonder charity giving is down.

There is a mega church here that has a gym, restaurant and movie theater. And they just added a beautiful baseball field. Oh, and the pastor's son was just expelled from divinity school for fathering a baby out of wedlock (the mother claims he raped her) and refusing to pay child support.

No offense to any Christian DUers, but these people make me want to :puke:.

happily to victims. But they didn't. In this town, only the Mormons did that.

They use their money for that building they preach out of.

Restaurant and movie theatre? That isn't church! That's just entertainment. Purely ridiculous.

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Also, they're usually built out on the edge of town in the more well-to-do suburbs and a long way away from the poor. They spend lots of money bussing people around. They spend lots of money on utilities for those monstrosities. My conclusion is that these are monuments built to and for self, not God, not serving people in need.

all that for Wednesday evenings, Sunday mornings and the occasional Bible study class.

And the more they over-reach with this Narnia/Passion of Christ nonsense and their thinly veiled political agendi the more they will become something to mock - like parachute pants and fishnet tank tops. Most of the people I know who were attracted to the flash of shiny objects that led to no substance have already gottten bored with it and no longer go. These churches are so huge there is no sense of community and nobody knows if you show up each week, so it is easy to get lazy and go back to worshipping Saint Mattress of Boxsprings on Sunday morning. The ones I know that are still there are the ones who are addictive personalities who have replaced one addiction (usually alcohol) with another.

By the way, since I came back to edit for spelling, I want to add that I really enjoyed the OP from TallahasseeGranny! Go Granny!

I just don't see them able to keep this level up that long. Like you said, Sunday morning that bed is very tempting.

On a Christian board once someone made the mention that it is all a fad now. I like to think it's like how big hair was in the 80's. It will be interesting to see if 80% of the population is still Christian in ten years.
In ten years for all we know it could be Buddism that is in charge. I joined and became a Christian because it's what I believe in. Not because it's popular now (I became a Christian I guess officially in 95). Sometimes I wonder how many people from that 80% really believe or if they were coached to believe. :shrug: Of course it's none of my business, only God's, but it's just something I wonder from time to time.

Good rant TGrannie, and I don't think you're overstating the case either. What you're saying strikes me as a description of a socially engineered and highly marketed creation of an artifial power base. These people are being entertained and contained by a perfectly captivating head trip. They live inside a marketed reality where it's possible for this Narnia fantasy to be all about them -- and they WILL identify with it completely. That doesn't sound entirely wholesome to me. After reading your post, I'll be watching the movie now with a jaundiced eye.

DUers: practicing Christians and Catholics included, have observed here that people involved in this big-box church sect rarely seem to know very much about Christianity, it's theology or its real history. They also seem to have bought the bill of goods on some kind of alternate world history in which the universe was created 6000 years ago and America was founded on the Bible by soldiers of Christ and established as an empire from the beginning...

This emerging statist religion is the perfect political cult. Scratch the surface and there's no spirit there. In point of fact, the ideology of these "neo-christianists" is remarkable precisely for its vacancy.

It's all show business. It's Vegas. It's your "Personal Championship Season!" It's a big-tent spectacle. It's rock and roll, your ticket to ride, and God the Almighty & Terrible all rolled into one big plastic mess. In short, it's the perfect product -- everything that is to be desired, delivered without effort in a form instantly comprehensible and accessible to all.

In the wrong hands, the influence this movement could have over people has real destructive potential in the form of a political army of lock-step consumers powered by the drug of triumphalism.

Ooops...I've let my imagination get away from me again...

:evilgrin:


edited for spelling

The history of this religion is 2000 years of controversies and high drama, sometimes over the most minor theological issues. It's shaped the evolution of several continents! But these mega-church-goers think Pastor Bob came down from the mountain just last week with a Bible in his hand and all the answers in his head.

For example, evangelicals hold a belief in biblical inerrancy, but they don't know it's called that. And they have no idea which alternatives exist, that other Christians hold some of those alternative beliefs, and what historical developments led to these differences.

These people are an incurious audience and willing to be imprinted. They're blank slates. History can be, and is being, rewritten every which way but loose by the architects of this movement -- whoever they are.

maybe? We need an endless supply of young people willing to die in the endless war that is being set up.

It's basically empty, & mean-spirited. There is really no meaning to it anymore. It's all spectacle. So it's no wonder they promote a Hollywood film. These fundies have no idea of what Christianity is supposed to stand for. They are so into themselves & their own selfishness. If they were *really* Christian, they would help the poor & do something about the environment, taking care of the planet that God gave to them.

Tammy

But don't look for it in those places..

Where the megachurches and all that is concerned. I'm reading off and on the memorie book from John Glenn and in it he talks about how when he was growing up going to church on Sunday morning and than going to eat with family/friends for lunch and gather at one person's home and what it was like back than. Reading about that and comparing it to now is simply amazing the differences. Back than it was about the spirit and now it's more about show. One reason why I go to church is for my spiritual soul. It's to re-energize myself with like-minded people and hear a sermon that has to do with my personal life. That's what my preacher does. He talks about sermons that can be applied to your daily life with the here and now. He doesn't talk about politics or the end of the world like these other preachers do. Watching them is like a whole nother world.

With all the religious-pesecution pretense from the fundies in a successful bid to infiltrate government, there is a huge market of Christianity-on-their-sleeve consumers ready to dump money on crap like that series of "Left Behind" books and movies. Narnia is production cost-wise rivalling Lord of the Rings, unless I'm horribly mistaken, and they want to make sure they see the returns at the box office. What better way to pimp it out to an entire market of people who can't discern quality as long as it involves Christianity?

Hollywood knows a ready-made audience when it sees it.

The sad thing is, Narnia is a good book. But it seems to me that the allegory is never exciting when somebody tells you all about it first and then rubs your face in it.

The exciting thing about an allegory to the reader, especially a young reader, is when they discover it. It should be a private thing, discerned in the quiet recesses of thinking after you either read it or see the film. What a spoiler.

It's like the passion of the Christ..almost porn, really, because of the in-your-face nature of the violence..things that should be left unseen. I'm not saying Narnia is in the same category, I've not seen it. But I'll bet they did a great job and are busy ruining it for everyone with all this hype.

Hollywood only has respect for profits, present and future. If they were getting the profits from the books as well, I'm sure the marketing campaign would be different, though probably still aimed at the same market.

On artforms, I see and appreciate the distiction between film and writing. When a film is made based on a book, the story becomes something entirely different due to its presentation. A novel uses the reader's imagination through use of language to develop the imagery, tone, pace and style of the story. A movie has to show all of this to the audience, thus it has to be predetermined and edited to fit an allocated amount of time, and little is left to the imagination of the audience.

I think corporate profiteering is largely responsible for sapping our imagination, as imagination is too difficult to quantify and and cost-control. Sadly, the decline of books and reading is a sign of that. However, the fact that books and reading persist despite the alternatives, and the success of childrens' books like the Harry Potter series, gives me hope that we won't have to choose one over the other artform in our lifetime at least.

They're robbing people of that precious moment of insight that all good literature (and spirituality) brings us to -- sometimes only after years and much life experience.

absolutely! Lewis cared first and foremost for story telling.
He was a story teller, pure and simple.

I hope some of these people are prompted to look further into his life because of the film. They might learn something, and it will NOT support the fundamentalist teachings they have been fed.

http://www.cinematical.com/2005/10/06/jeb-bush-helps-out-with-narnia-promotion/

Jeb Bush Helps Out with Narnia Promotion

Posted Oct 6, 2005, 8:28 AM ET by Martha Fischer
Filed under: Movie Marketing, Politics, Disney, Animation, Deals, Family Films, Newsstand
Jeb BushWhen Florida governor Jeb Bush chose The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe as the second book in Just Read, the state's reading-related contest series for kids, the primary stink was about the book's religious elements. Groups concerned about the separation of church and state, for example, objected to the reading program's presence in schools (the program's website links to Walden Media's, which offers discussion of a "17-week Narnia Bible Study for children").

Now, however, there are more reasons to complain. As discussed here earlier, the co-producer of the upcoming Narnia film is Walden Media, which is owned by Philip Anschutz. Anschutz also happens to have donated $100,000 to Republican "candidates and causes" in the past three elections. Ah-ha. While Walden Media did give $10,000 to Just Read, Florida "to help pay for food and beverages for a reading coaches conference," that seems a small price to pay for a statewide promotion that will have thousands of kids demanding to be taken to see their movie. Oh, and the last book chosen by Just Read, Florida? That was Carl Hiaasen's Hoot, which will be made into a movie by...yes, you guessed it: Walden Media. Classy, Jeb. Very classy.



Sure helps sap my enthusiasm for seeing this, and I remember the books fondly.

Stomach churning. Will this ever end.

is doing all that as pay back for the money they were given. And mean while the fundies really believe and think that the Bush's care about them.

who wrote about the differences between the "vertical" experience and the "horizontal" experience, where horizontal means the everyday experience and vertical means something beyond that. (Does anyone remember who that was?) With PowerPoint and percussion sets, these churches are catering to the horizontal and ignoring the vertical, until church feels like just another day at the office.

nothing is sacred

is being used to fund these coliseums? I don't think they are being fully funded from the collection plate. How much faith-based charity money is being used? It seems bread and circuses are being provided in the name of Jesus Christ these days.

Do they not make the connection at all?

To me, religion means self scrifice, not self indulgence. :shrug:

I'm as perplexed and frightened by the whole phenomenon as you are. I've read "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" with my 5th grade students over the years and I've never felt the need to highlight the fact that Aslan is an allegoric "Jesus" figure in order to facilitate their enjoyment of the narrative. Kids generally like this book, although I"ve always thought of it as somewhat stodgy, and well, not my cup of tea - fantasy fiction is perhaps my least favorite literary genre.
By the way, the co producer of the film, along with Disney, is Walden Media, founded by long time right winger Philip Anshutz, who is also the major stockholder of Regal Entertainment, operators of Regal Cinemas. Is it just me, or do others see that many of the new mega-churches (at least in my area) share some of the same architectural features as the Regal Cinema multiplexes? These big box churches could easily be converted into multiplexes should the congregations decide to stop "worshiping" in them, or, (gulp), the multiplexes could easily be transformed into mega-churches when the religious right's grand scheme to Christianize America reaches the ultimate attainment of its objective. Just a thought, well, really a nightmare.

that movie theatres rent their spaces out on Sunday mornings. Personally I can't think of anything less inspiring to me spiritually than the gum, soda, popcorn and who knows what stains on the floor. Yeesh. I guess they don't spend a lot of time on their knees. Wonder if the concession booths are open?

Having read both, I've wondered why hollywood(or weird as the frightwingers usually have it) settled on the Narnia books to do their christianofascist promotion when Lewis' Perelandra trilogy may be more starkly religious in nature and has a Star Wars space opera setting? I also wonder how the godbotherers who object to the witchcraft of Harry Potter can promote something which has a witch as a main character.But then I'm given to wondering about lots of odd things.

fuck em

they have this drive-in church with movie speakers that you can just drive-in and get your sermon by speakers. I don't know if it's still there, but when I lived in California, it existed. I'll have to ask my son. When I first saw it, I just laughed. Church is not a building. The whole concept of what Jesus believed is not in a building. Church is the fellowship, the members. The more I see of huge edifices being built by different Christian religions, the more I believe they have lost their way. Who are they building for God or Man?

Jesus said "whenever there is two or three people there is my church." When my home church first began it was just about two handfulls of people who met under a tent on the property. They came whether rain, sun, hot or cold weather. The only thing my church has is a big room since we've grown a lot over the years and we added on with some extra rooms for classes. We do use a screen but that's for those who have bad sight or come in late and can't pick up an announcement sheet that has the schedule on it and stuff.

and really really miss it. It was a Lutheran Church. And it was big, but not ornate. Just a huge room with plain pews in a semi circle, some times they put up colored sashes depending on what time of year it was. The building itself was ugly ugly ugly. The first service was what they called "traditional", but my mom always wanted to go to the 2nd service so she could hear the band play after the sermon. The only thing she complained was there wasn't any "fire and brimstone" type stuff, but now that I've gone to other churches they can keep their "your going to hell" shit and give me the drum set any day.

It's a Black Baptist church in a modest building.

Some of those gospel churches have full bands along with the mass choirs, and are quite the rousing tradition. I love music in church, though usually it is either the old hymns and classical music, or black gospel music. The megachurch I attended once has the worst pablum for music that I've heard, complete with words on the screen with a bouncing ball to follow it.

My real objection to these megachurches is that they turn religion into this bland, homogenized, religion-lite. It is warm and fuzzy, the source of their appeal, I think, as it doesn't require much thought, study or effort. People DO find community easily, because little is asked. It is similar to other forms of mass entertainment, be it movies or fast food outlets.

Most of the people going are not idealogues, though, as they don't know enough about Christianity to be idealogues.

although kind of not! I don't care much for contemporary church music. One exception is African American churches... been to a number of those and they do the gospel so well the drums are just fine.

Do these megachurches have Bible studies after wards? Oh and my church recently started this new program (new for us) where during the sermon the young kids ages three to kindegarten go to another room where they are "trained" for service. I think they just get their own lesson and stuff for their age gap. Going to church is supposed to be for fellowshipping with like-minded people and re-energizing your spirit for the long week ahead and to worship and praise God and remember Jesus with the Communinon and hear a sermon that can be applied to your daily life. At least my experience with church. I wouldn't like these mega churches myself probably since I prefer things smaller to where I can get to know someone and study with them. I also like it because my preacher can interact with us while he's doing his sermon.

And I don't know what to do about it, either. I just stay away.

Is this what Jesus would want? :wtf:

Societies take two forms: "communities of the will" and "communities of obedience." H.G. Wells

Megachurches create "communities of obedience" just as the medieval cathedrals did. Church domination and control is not a new concept. "Brainwashing" members is not new.

Medieval churches used amazing architecture and art to evoke fear and awe, elements to stimulate the senses that impressed and appealed to the people of the time. Stunning stained glass windows, marble statues, enormous elaborate doors, columns, music from pipe organs and bells and the smell of incense, all wowed people.

Megachurches use cultural elements that appeal to modern Americans---technological based, Hollywoodish, commercialized elements (lights, sounds systems, video screens, etc) wow the members.

I was brought up in the Church of Christ. We don't believe in having choirs or music in our services but we all sing hymns (if you're comfortable doing so) and we have our lesson and take Communion. We do use a screen for the hymns and lesson for people with bad eye site and such and/or if you come in late and wasn't able to pick up an agenda sheet. All these megachurches just amaze me and remins me of Matthew chapter eight about the hypocrites and the Pharasiee's of Jesus' day. I like to go to church for fellowship and to have Bible study and all that. Not for a big show. It's different if you have a big church that needs to have a screen and stuff like that but not if it's just for show. I remember the "Daily Show" did a skit about this and it was when Stephen was still on there talking about how the church had ice cream and stuff.

http://www.willowcreek.com/

These guys can sell you a prepackaged deal.

Canned sermons
Canned Sunday School

No thought involved, just apply for your tax-free status and begin living the life God meant you to live.

Remember, If God didn't want you to have that Caddilac, He wouldn't have given you one.