DOD Has No Clue Why Our Dead Soldiers Are Shipped Home As FREIGHT!

In a thread I started earlier showing a flag draped coffin on a fork lift at O'Hare, a new DUer named genie-weenie posted this article. I think it is very important and shows how the WH and the DOD really feel about our fallen troops.

Here is the thread...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5570094

Here is the Photo...




<snip>

Dead heroes are supposed to come home with their coffins draped with the American flag -- greeted by a color guard.

But in reality, many are arriving as freight on commercial airliners -- stuffed in the belly of a plane with suitcases and other cargo.


John Holley and his wife, Stacey, were stunned when they found out the body of their only child, Matthew, who died in Iraq last month, would be arriving at Lindbergh Field as freight.

"When someone dies in combat, they need to give them due respect they deserve for (the) sacrifice they made," said John Holley.

John and Stacey Holley, who were both in the Army, made some calls, and with the help of U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer, Matthew was greeted with honor and respect.

<snip>

Reporters from 10News called the Defense Department for an explanation. A representative said she did not know why this is happening.

http://www.10news.com/news/5504608/detail.html

but I thought bodies are always shipped as freight in the belly of the plane? There really isn't room in the passenger area, even on a service carrier. I think the flag is put on when the body is taken from the plane to where it is going. Is this really different from previous practices? Anybody know?

If it isn't a military plane what do they do on civilian aircraft?

They are Military and the are appalled.

warehouse. How honorable.

The only thing I think they fucked up on here is that they didn't have an honor guard. (They had the survivor assistance officer and another guy who looks like he may be a Marine, but they needed an honor guard.)

Okay, let's assume there was an honor guard in attendance when this Marine arrived. Our choices for getting this Marine from the plane to the funeral home are:

a) Remove the Marine from the aircraft with a forklift. (Considering that he arrived on a commercial jet, there is going to be forklift work in here.) Lower the Marine to the ground. The honor guard conducts a welcoming ceremony, secures the casket to a caisson and pushes it to a waiting hearse. While all this is going on, you've got jet blast noise so intense you can't hear a damn thing, you've got aircraft service vehicles racing around at high speeds, you've got near-gale-force winds. The family is freezing their asses off, half the honor guard has lost its service caps and the pallbearers have one hand on the casket and a death grip on the flag with the other.

or

b) Remove the Marine from the aircraft with a forklift then bring him into a cargo warehouse. The honor guard conducts a welcoming ceremony then carries the casket to the hearse that's been driven into the warehouse. All activity in the warehouse has stopped. You can hear the Marines as they welcome their brother back from the war. No one's losing a hat. No one's freezing. And no one's in danger of being run over.

Option b seems highly preferable to me.

but they have been shipped like common freight since Nam... that is NOT news, and all bodies are shipped that way not only our troops

military protocol

Plane is met by a Marine Color Guard in this case. It is unloaded by the airline crew and the Marines, who take over as soon as possible, who load it to a funerary car. Then that Honor Guard stays with them until they reaxch wherever they hold the wake, and finally those Marines acompany that trooper all the way to military honors grave side.

but transported inside the plane, sounds to me the Marines goofed and what did you want the airline to do? Leave it on the tarmac?

thogh I CHOOSE to honor military members all the time, by not getting worked up over things that have been standard since Nam... and I chose to get angry over things that matter... like when the Marine Corp goofs, oh the one sided conversation with boxer was probably one that Commanding Officer will NEVER forget

I brought home the home fashioned coffin from the Veteran's Day parade here in Phoenix. It is in my garage. I am going to make a scene I think. Instead of a nativity, make my own war on Christmas! This is just too fucking much!

before protesting it. I am just not sure there is a difference in past practices. In college I knew people who worked at Dover AFB in Del. and they loaded caskets into the belly of the planes there, after they were sent there for processing.

and whether or not it has been downgraded for these men and women? Because if is HAS then we need to slap somebody in the face with this.

as to the probocol talk to any service member, the body has to be accompanied from the battlefield, to the interment site. They can and have made the exception of not having the color guard fly on the civilian plane since Nam, but they are suposed to be MET at the airport by a color guard

gear, eequipment MAC flights and single coffins all over the United States

and everybody uses for transport, look the plane ride has been practice since Vietnam

nt

They use 9civilian) charters going into Baghdad, but the runs to Kuwait and Oman are contracted US flag carriers.

Bodies have been sent via commercial flights in cargo hold for decades. This is nothing new.

Get outraged about the fact that there are bodies at all for a war based on lies for the reason of greed and empire. THERE is the root outrage.

The Green Fields of France

How do you do young Willie McBride?
Do you mind if I sit here down by your graveside,
And rest for a while 'neath the warm Summer sun,
I've been walking all day and I'm nearly done
I see by your gravestone you were only 19
when you joined the great fallen in 1916
I hope you died well and I hope you died clean
Or young Willie McBride was it slow and obscene?

Did they beat the drum slowly did they play the fife lowly
Did they sound the death march as they lowered you down
Did the band play the Last Post and Chorus
Did the pipes play the Flowers of the Forest?

Did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined
Although you died back in 1916
In that faithful heart are you forever 19?
Or are you a stranger without even a name
Enclosed then forever behind a glass frame
In an old photograph torn, battered and stained
And faded to yellow in a brown leather frame?

Did they beat the drum slowly did they play the fife lowly
Did they sound the death march as they lowered you down
Did the band play the Last Post and Chorus
Did the pipes play the Flowers of the Forest?

The sun now it shines on the green fields of France
There's a warm summer breeze makes the red poppies dance
And look how the sun shines from under the clouds
There's no gas, no barbwire, there's no guns firing now
But here in this graveyard it's still no man's land
the countless white crosses stand mute in the sand
To man's blind indifference to his fellow man
To a whole generation that were butchered and damned.

Did they beat the drum slowly did they play the fife lowly
Did they sound the death march as they lowered you down
Did the band play the Last Post and Chorus
Did the pipes play the Flowers of the Forest?

Now young Willie McBride I can't help wonder why
Do those who lie here know why did they die
Did they believe when they answered the call
Did they really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the sorrow, the suffering, the glory, the pain
The killing and the dying were all done in vain
For young Willie McBride it all happened again,
And again and again and again and again

Did they beat the drum slowly did they play the fife lowly
Did they sound the death march as they lowered you down
Did the band play the Last Post and Chorus
Did the pipes play the Flowers of the Forest?

On a truck? On a train? In a Jeep?

I work for an airline, and I can assure you that thousands or ordinary citizens and funeral homes ship human remains (somebody's Grandmas or daughter, etc.) every month. And it done with respect to the family and to the deceased.

this fucking war of lies! The military should take care of them!

The freight hold of a military plane is not more holy than the freight hold of a commercial airliner -- and the unloading dock in a hanger is going to look the same anywhere. It's the honor guard that could have made the difference.

These parents saw it as a secondary assault during their grief. But I guarantee, that if even if the unloading had occurred in front of them off a military plane, they still would have had the same reaction. They wanted/needed a color guard. That part is where the military messed up. Not with the airline -- airlines provide a valuable, respectful option to people in shipping human remains.

Are you saying that the thousands of people who have shipped their deceased loved ones using a commercial airline have been disrespectful to their own family members and were not "taking care of them"?

fucking warehouse because you are a dead cold GI and can no longer even deftly defend your dignity, that the military should have a responsibility to maintain this dignity for the body! That is what I am saying. Military transport! Color Guard, honor and dignity! Damn it! What is so fucking hard about this concept?

Hell, it is only Korea that bodies were shipped home. ALL WWII troops were laid to rest at the battlefields they fell at... which became US territory, or British or Fernch or what have you.

want to divet goods and resources? WOW... I take it you never served

cofins commecial air has been starndard since Nam... maximizes reources, they also used to use trains back then, but trains just don't go everywhere. Where the error was commited was, the Marines needing a US Senator screaming at them for goofing and NOT HAVING an honor guard present, in full dress

I AM a wife of a NAVY vet who was in the service two years ago, and did 20, get ourtraged over things that matter

to me if my son was sent home as freight. He's a Marine with two tours in Iraq, now back in the states before a third tour. And, yes, I would be outraged to have my beautiful boy sent home as freight with the luggage.
This does matter to me.

threads on this story alone and I don't think that particular 10 news story belongs to that particular picture. In the 10 news story they were loading some poor kid on the plane with no flag draped over the "box" (it wasn't even a coffin ). And no I don't think it is common practice to load them into planes without even draping a flag over the coffin.

Edited to say: They didn't have color guard for the kid they just loaded him in a box.

It was a box within a box. The flag was inside, in a sack. When the remains arrive, you take the box out of the box, and put the flag on it and secure it.

She said she used to work at Dover. I was wondering if the coffins were unloaded by forklift when she was there.

a DC 10 does not

I went to the University of Delaware and a lot of my friends were from Dover. I don't know if they used forklifts. In those days they were bringing in over 100 at a time. I have a mental image from listening to them that they were conveyor-type things but that is vague and I wasn't there.

I think the topic has been the proverbial straw on the camel's back for some. For me, it was hearing that the troops were not adequately protected with armor.

Let's all take a deep breath and determine to find out whether this is something we need to actively protest and/or hit the media with. Some media somewhere. (wishful thinking, probably only blogs will fully deal with it)

plane and it should have been turned over to the Marine Honor Guard, who was NOT there to meet the place. That is where the error, and a grievous one in fact, was made

The freight box looks bad but there very well could be a flag draped coffin inside. But there is no way to explain away that forklift.

there IS a Marine Gunny to the left of the frame too...

give their son the honor he and his
family deserve .

but at the very least have a very one sided conversation with any local Marine Base Commander, that would be my guess...

bring THESE dead soldiers back in Air Force One. And Bush would pay for it out of his own fucking pocket.

He'd have plenty of time to read My Pet Goat

Not what class of travel the body takes.

Bring them home alive. In one piece, uninjured. Now.

got caught up in this war of lies be treated like this? http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/092.html?template=print

I found this link, but don't have the fuel to look at this moment. I think there may be some protocol listed here. will bookmark for later.

The veterans coming home -- some of them are waiting 6 months for a hospital appointment.

There is no honor in taking economically disadvantaged, patriotic kids, and adults, and killing them, or disabling them. No matter how you treat the coffins.

which was taken care off by a US Senator, is waste of outrage, now the VA not being funded, the kids not having enough food in theater, or for god sakes it is a war, bullets (People are taking their own guns AND ammo), should be outraging people.

As a military wife and ex military myself I find what they are doing disgusting. That doesn't mean that I forgot about the war and everything else that is going on. I multitask my disgust for this administration quite well. I know I'm not going to let anyone make me feel guilty about the topics I feel passionately about. What they are doing is truly disgusting and my Navy husband and the rest of his command feel the same way.

to someone who previously challenged my service Fuck her! LOL Thanks for respecting those who have died for lies! We must!

Support the Troops? You phoney Bastards!!!!
:grr:

I'm in contact with my friends in Iraq (Marines of 2D Intel Bn, Tactical Fusion Center, Ramadi) on a daily basis. There's a lot I could go into from a personal viewpoint on the creation of a Demockery in Iraq but, I'll leave the image and lack of respect for the troops as the final arbiter.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/coffin_photos/dover/

I would be interested in reading more of your thoughts on Iraq.

The remains in those caskets had yet to be processed. Once they were processed, they were shipped commercially to the home of record.

This is not new. What is happening, though, is that there are insufficient honor guards to pay final respects. The WW2 vets are having a very tough time getting an honor guard, and if they can get one at all, they sometimes must hold the funeral for weeks or months to get on the schedule. There simply are not enough to go around. A lot of vet organizations are doing their own, with retirees and vets who belong to the outfits.

Because there are no where near enough buglers, DOD has developed an electronic bugle that plays taps at the push of a button. No kidding.

It is pitch perfect TAPS, played in the best possible fashion--just the right amount of "holding the notes" and unless you already know, you wouldn't know the difference. I guess they used the best template they could find to make the thing. And it looks like a regular bugle, too, except for the little button!

They just do not have the musicians like they did in the old days. The "tooth to tail" ratio has modulated over the years. Way back when, they had military guys mowing grass, running morale programs, working in the exchanges and commissaries, all that "frou frou" nice-to-have stuff. Nowadays, that stuff has to pay for itself, and the civilians run it.

With the electronic bugle, you can take some kid who is on limited duty (say, recovering from appendicitis, walking around, but not yet ready to go back to war), or some kid on humanitarian reassignment (family member very ill, temporarily assigned close to home while they either recover or die), give him a couple of hours of funeral protocol instruction, and have him "be the bugler" at an honors ceremony.

It's not the best solution, but it is a helluva lot better than having no bugle at all, or having some bozo haul up a boom box and push a button.

The old ways are gone, never to return. We can't really mourn them, because they are in the past. Nowadays, if it doesn't put ordnance on target...it ain't shit, and it ain't in uniform. That's just the way they are playing it now.... Here's an article that addresses the issue:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0511110277nov11,1,6639566.story?coll=chi-news-hed

IIRC they went to Arlington, where the Army's best buglers are, and auditioned all of the buglers to find the cream of the crop. Then they digitally recorded him.

I believe it is a Military aircraft. I am not sure of the type. Perhaps a C130?

is just bullshit plain and simple. The dude must have been on somebody's shit list.

they leave Dover in commercial airliners.

I'll just touch on the debate on this site as to how those killed in Iraq/Afghanistan are being treated. A big chunk of this thread was devoted to the exact method caskets are returned to the States, i.e. do they come home as "freight", but IMHO this misses the point. BushCo should be relabeled Shinobi meaning stealer in or one who is concealed because this is the heart of the issue. BushCo has made a concerted effort to apply IO (Information Operations)and propaganda against the American people. Why hide the photos of returning caskets? Out of sight, Out of Mind. When the Italians suffered 19 kia after a suicide attack in Nov 2003, the bodies where greeted at the tarmac with a somber ceremony and an official day of mourning occurred. Now, I know this would never happen in America, first off because their are too many dead :( but also because of the politics involved. Second do you recall David S. Chu stating before a Congressional Committee that commitments to wounded Veterans are undercutting the Nations ability to defend itself. Here is a link: http://webreprints.djreprints.com/1156160669825.html
Remember in February the Marine Corps decided on a plan to deliver death notices in the Green Service "Alpha" Uniform and not the traditional Dress Blue uniform because of the negative connotation people were projecting onto the "Classic Marine Corps" look. Here is the official MARADMIN http://www.usmc.mil/maradmins/maradmin2000.nsf/0/f0ee4db00e9f0a0c85256fa30064ca38?OpenDocument
So, to me the key with these stories is the pattern of deceit in order to subvert mankind's natural abhorrence to war. It's only because of the internet and people of conscience that any of this has gotten out, but the internet is a two edged sword as the rapid pace and large amount of new information makes people forget some of these stories.

So leftchick there you have it... If you or anyone else would like to comment or ask me anything else feel free!

I also recall the huge contrast with every country that has lost soldiers in this war. The Italians, Japanese and British all publicly honor their dead as they arrive home. You are absolutely right as to why the US is doing this and it is sickening. :(

Demockery good call... waiting to hear more from you.

she did not know why this is happening."

Was she a bona fide rep, or just some broad who was answering the phone at the time? Most bureuacracies put a dimwit on the phone to discourage many calls getting through.

isn't that sweet. :eyes:

The planeloads of dollars that are escorted home.

For defense, or, offense, contractors. For congresspeople who vote for war (see, Duke Cunningham, and that unfolding scandal). For embedded media who went along, and helped beat the drums of war.

These people are walking on red carpets daily, with flags draped over their shoulders, so that no one notices they are traitors.

what's one more filled wooden box to Bush?

I am in the Navy, and I have had to deal with processing remains overseas twice in the last few months. Here is what happens:

a) The remains are sent to a morgue where they are prepared.
b) Once that is complete, they are shipped CONUS on a special flight through a single base. In Europe, it's usually Ramstein.
c) The remains are shipped to Dover, and processed and properly prepared with the appropriate uniform.
d) The remains are escorted by at least one military member at all times. If a military flight is used, then the commander of the flight is the escort. Both times we sent remains to the state, someone from our command went and met them at Dover.
e) If the funeral home is close enough, then they come pick up the remains at Dover. If not the remains are sent by military or commercial flight and the remains are picked up by the funeral home there.

A military Color Guard or Honor guard is not required. It is not even recommended by the instruction. The escort who accompanies the remains is responsible to make sure the body is treated properly and respectfully. As best I can tell, that picture shows nothing that is improper.