Do you think Hillary Clinton could beat John McCain in '08?

Put aside what you think of her. If she does get the nomination do you think she could beat the person I think is most likely to be the GOP nominee, John McCain?

I'm not supporting Hillary, but I do recognize she has a formidable lead among Democrats early on for the '08 lead and can raise and has already raised an incredible amount of money.

are going to run.

People who won't vote for her:

Libeals
Progressives
Kneejerk Hillary haters (and yes, some are Democrats)
Working people who aint yuppies
Anybody who realizes Iraq is an unwinnable quagmire
Kneejerk Clinton haters (and yes, some are Democrats)
Kneejerk Yankee haters (and yes, a LOT are Democrats)

That doesn't leave much, just the yuppies and a few yellow dog Democrats. Why the hell do you think the GOP considers her the dream candidate?

Wake up, Democrats! I would rather vote for Wesley Clark than Hillary.


John

I think Wes is a great person and a better democrat than most of our elected dems.

I honestly doubt she will, but if she does, I will either vote third party or put up a write in candidate.


John

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That excuse isn't going to work anymore. I want my Democrats to be fighters against the Neocons. Not Neocon enablers! The Democrats only defeat themselves when they nominate those who won't fight the Republicans! HELLO? ANYBODY HOME??? WAKE UP!!!

:eyes:


John

Ya wanna be like that, fine, it's your choice.

It is not that I want the Republicans to win. The Democrats only defeat themselves when they bring up those Democrats that either won't battle against the Republicans or go along with them. I have played that game "I voted for him or her all because they have a "D" at the end of their name!" too long and I am not doing it anymore. Hillary has been a great disappointment and I she is not worthy of winning my vote or support. I honestly do not think she will get the nomination.


John

and when it comes down to a Republican vs a Democrat, I think all the Hillary naysayers are going to GLADLY cast their vote for her (should she get the nod), rather than take a chance that their lack of doing so could cost us another election like what happened with Al Gore. Plus, by the time the election rolls around, our candidate, whomever he or she will be, will seem like a godsend compared to any fricken Repuke lousy bastard asshole that's running....and we'll all do whatever it takes to get a Dem in office next time...even if it means biting our tongues, eh.

nominee. Why do the Democratic nominees keep moving to the right? Because the Republican candidates on the right have been winning! Why are they winning, because Democrats aren't supporting the nominee!

Do your fighting in the primaries, not the general election! When the left starts winning, candidates will move to the left.

Simple, logical, and dead on accurate.

If only people would listen to you on that!

Any Democrat running is automatically the liberal candidate, the media and Republicans have said so for years. When liberals start winning, candidates will become more liberal, even the Republicans.

Lets hope this is as far right as the pendulum goes, time for the swing back to the left.

Remember there is only one perfect candidate, and that is yourself, no one else will agree with you 100 percent, but as a rule for national office, the Democrat is the closest fit with a chance of winning.

Every one of your lines deserves to be quoted and jammed down all our throats here.

You should put those two posts of yours together and make them the subject of a new thread. Good stuff and I wanna thank YOU!

I live about 5 miles from the northern edge of the Adirondack Park.

and it's gonna be dropping down there tonight, isn't it!

I'm also not far from the northern edge of the Dacks, maybe 10 miles. Love hiking those mountains, any time of year...

last winter it got so cold on a hike that when my buddy and I talked to each other our words froze in mid air, and we had to read them in order to know what the other one was saying!

we always bring them inside to listen to them when they thaw out.

Never thought about reading them. I'll have to try that.

who is done with voting for Repukes in Dem drag.

She's the right wing's dream opposition candidate. Ask yourself WHY.

not at this juncture.

McCain is shaky at best these days. He has lost his edge and any sense of integrity IMO. And tho I am not fond of Hillary, I would vote for her over him or any other republican.

I know that this poll doesn't ask if you would vote for her - but I am guessing from how the poll is going pro-McCain that that is how many are answering this poll.

We need to stick together. As I said, she would not be my first choice or second or third for that matter, but if it is between her and McCain... come on!

falling into line and voting for another damn Repuglican in Dem drag. Damn few are going to do that no matter how much you like the woman.

I just don't think the country can survive another Republican. I don't agree with half of what she says - probably less. But if the choice is between her and McCain, I will have to vote for her.

Nobody should not fall for that lame excuse of because he or she is Democrat. Just because they have a damned "D" on the end of their names. Give me a Presidential candidate who will fight for us and not go along to get along with the Rethugs!


John

a guy who has never voted for any politician unless they were democrats!

I always vote Dem, this year I signed the pledge, Only anti war Dems. Hil still has time to say she's sorry she believed Chimpy

They're just pointing out the reality that Hillary can't beat McCain in a nationwide race. I voted McCain and I'm DEFINITELY NOT pro-McCain.

I voted McCain more out of an anti-Hillary vote.

the sort of "election" we have nowadays.

In a fair election, yes, she'd win, but the Repugs hate her so much that they will pull out all the stops to steal it.

The neo-cons will try to shoe horn one of their own candidates like Jeb Bush.

They need to please their base. McCain hasn't got a chance in the primaries.

to be nominated. Lets get real and get hip to this obvious curve ball being thrown at us by the far right disinformation service.
Where do you ever see that she has a formidable lead?

why I respond to these Hillary vs Whoever threads. She won't run and if she does, she won't be nominated. The RWingers love her because she gets everyone so riled up. Look at the above for example.

about it?

If Hillary decides to run, she'll most likely get win, and then reality will sink in that Hillary is more of a true Democrat than all her naysayers put together are.

Can't is the favorite rightwing sound, and it is an effective political weapon. Hillary can beat McCain, that doesn't mean she will!

She would be a frontrunner for the Democratic nomination if she ran, but the real question..will either candidate run? :shrug:

I am not a Hillary supporter and I do realize that a lot of things can change over the next two or three years. Much or most of this lead may very well be due to name recognition



link: http://www.pollingreport.com/2008.htm

NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Bill McInturff (R). Nov. 4-7, 2005. N=1,003 adults nationwide.
"Let me mention some people who might seek the Democratic nomination for president in 2008. If the next Democratic primary for president were being held today, for which one of the following candidates would you vote: ?" If unsure: "Well, which way do you lean?" Asked of registered voters who are Democrats/leaners, or are independents who would vote in a Democratic presidential primary.

Hillary Clinton 41

John Edwards 14

Al Gore 12

John Kerry 10

Joe Biden 5

Wesley Clark 4

Bill Richardson 3

________________________

WNBC/Marist Poll. Oct. 12-13 & 17, 2005. Nationwide.

"If the 2008 Democratic presidential primary were held today, whom would you support if the candidates are ?" N=393 Democrats and Democratic leaners who are registered to vote; MoE ± 5

10/12-13 &
17/05 4/18-21/05 2/14-16/05
% % %
Hillary Clinton 41
40
39
John Kerry 17
18
21
John Edwards 14
16
15
Joe Biden 5
7
5
Wesley Clark 3
4

Evan Bayh 2
-
1
Tom Vilsack 1
-
-
Mark Warner 1
-
1
Unsure 16
12
10
Russ Feingold n/a
2
2
Bill Richardson n/a
1
2
____________________

Rasmussan Poll - link:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/index.htm

November 8, 2005

Election 2008

Democrats

Clinton 43%
Gore 14%
Edwards 13%
Kerry 10%
RasmussenReports.com

_______________________

are not political junkies like us, they're operating purely on name recognition. I bet if you asked 90% of those people to explain why they supported such-and-such a candidate, they wouldn't be able to tell you.

Which is still probably another reason why she will win the nomination.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/08/04/MNGAJE2HUN1.DTL

So far, Hillary is simply the best we have to offer, like her or not.

Feingold or Clark have the balls to win, they'll fight the swiftboating. Certainly Clark understands the art of war.

Today's polls are meaningless. Republicans will donate more to Hillary's primary campaign than Democrats by 3:1, at least. Hillary will be canonized until she gets the nomination, then there will be more vicious attacks than those we've ever seen, a few of the attacks will be true. It's easy to predict what will happen, impossible to stop it.

Never again do I wanna see him run for president again. That was pathetic!!

but claiming that Hillary would do better really amuses me.

I'll guarantee you that Hillary wouldn't have a chance in hell in states Dems ABSOLUTELY MUST WIN in the midwest like Wisconsin and Iowa. I'm not even sure she'd win MI and MN. Forget about NM and NV.

Another state where she'd have a tough time would be PA. The only states I'm guessing she'd win are NY, MA, RI, VT, DE, and maybe a few others in the northeast. She'd probably win CA (barely)...Probably win OR and WA (but by very slim margins).

Don't ask me why, but McCain IS popular among many, including clueless Dems, independants, moderates, and even some liberals...and Hillary is loved by very few. I'd vote for her, but she wouldn't receive a dime from me or a second of my time.

If McCain gets the repuke nomination, this would be an uphill battle regardless of whom we nominate, but if Hillary goes against him, this thing will be over before it begins.

How fucking sad is that?

A pro-war, pro-NAFTA, pro-flag burning amendment, pro-corporate DLCer is the best the left has?

Sorry, not buying your bunk.

:evilgrin:

One thing, though, she's not "pro-flag burning amendment". She's co-sponsering legislation against desecrating the flag. She adamantly opposes a flag burning amendment and raised a big stink against doing such a thing back in June of '05.

She my lead in the polls until the last two days of the Iowa Caucus and then she will drop like a rock just like Dean did.

Dem's won't take a chance on someone they don't think can win.

Kerry was leading in the polls at this point in the '04 campaign--and it was only after all the media attention that Dean got in '03 that Dean began to gain in the polls. Originally he was the front runner then he lost it to Dean and then he got it back. Of course right now it is mainly name recognition more than anything.

and Dems turned to Kerry because of his Experience and his Military service in the final 48 hours.

I see the same thing happening to Hillary. If Dems have enough fear that she is a risky candidate they will go to the safer bet in the final 48 hours before Iowa. Dems are so desperate to win we are not willing to take chances right now. We will go with who we think will most likely win.

Just my gut feeling.

Hillary also would put much of the midwest, New Mexico and New Hampshire into uncertain status meaning that the necessary miracle of winning Ohio would mean nothing.

Bush and McCain were eating cake:


while:



:grr:

McCain will trounce Hillary, they shouldn't waste money opening the polls.

The only people saying that are Republicans. A few weeks ago their was a poll here on DU where 92% out of 300+ votes said they don't want Hillary to run. I have seen polls here on DU where Hillary gets beaten by a variety of candidates including Al Gore. Democrats don't support her now and won't support her in the primaries.

As for a race against McCain. Not a chance. I see McCain getting his share of votes from Democrats that don't want Hillary.

among Democratic voters who were questioned. But much of it is name recognition too. Of course DU is very anti-Hillary, but DU is not very representative of the Democratic party as a whole. We tend to represent the progressive left. If DU had selected the '04 nominee it would not have been Kerry but Dean or Clark who were consistently leading the polls here.

Need I say more?


John

you gave your opinion very well.

DU posters are extremely educated and up on the news and know the candidates forward and backward. The average Democrat outside of DU my watch the evening or morning news a couple of times a week and Hillary is probably the one candidate that really sticks out in their mind. In polls for the 04 elections Hillary was polling way ahead of all the candidates and she is still polling way out ahead now.

You can't look at our polls and make a prediction. If you did then Wes Clark would have won in a landslide as he was wasting everyone on the DU polls going into Iowa in 03.

And only then because I doubt RWers could overcome their racism and sexism to allow themselves to vote for a black woman.

if DeLay were campaigning from his jail cell.

Why don't Democrats nominate electable candidates?

From an anecdotal point of view, not one of the people that I know voted for Kerry in '04 will vote for Hillary.

I just cannot imagine getting anyone motivated enough to come vote for Hillary. We'll be better off not even mentioning her name, and get people to vote for our local Democrats. I fear that if we mention Hillary it will turn people off so much that they might not even bother to vote, particularly if it is a cold day.

Kerry carried Indianapolis/Marion County in 2004. Hillary is toast here!

McCain is no dim wit but I think Senator Clinton is the brighter bulb, and if she says the things people want to hear, Hillary will be "Madam President".

but Kerry also beat Bush in the debates.

What does that have to do with winning?

be a nailbiter. Same if the Dark Side runs Chuck Hagel.

the fix is in. it doesn't matter who runs. the only question is whether or not the candidate will make election integrity an issue or not. As long as Diebold, ESS and Sequoia are counting our votes in secret, there will never again be a Democratic president.

No DLC Insider "Safe Beat" is going to be McCain. The only way
to beat McCain is to offer someone very different from our side. Someone who
speaks the the people in a plainspoken way.

Foremost he needs to have the bravery to acknowledge that unrestrained
corporate power is the biggest threat to our democracy and the biggest
obstacle in the way of American progress.



Nothing out of the DLC puppy mill is progressive enough to unite our
party and energize the base.

We have to take down the DLC so they don't stab the Dean of 2008 in the back.

To those who think that Hillary would be easy to beat, I think that you've forgotten what the Clinton political machine was like. Just because people here treat her like Satan (for reasons passing all logic) doesn't mean others don't like her. Here in NY, she has huge, huge approval ratings with Democrats, Republicans, and indies.

In any event, though, it's kind of irrelevant. I'm not convinced that either Clinton or McCain are going to run, and I certainly don't think that either of them would get the nom, let alone both of them. Neither has the kind of strong, charismatic force that I suspect is going to clinch the 08 contest.

-- deserve to.

His voting record is in John Birch territory a lot of the time. Personally appealling but politically unacceptable.

But his image as a "maverick" would win independents and many Democrats. Many women will not vote for Senator Clinton.

In that match-up, McCain carries most of the "battleground" states: Ohio. Florida. New Mexico. New Hampshire. And he would compete very strongly (or win outright) in Washington, Michigan, Iowa and Wisconsin.

Senator Clinton, despite her smarts, is not a terrific choice for the Democratic ticket in 08. McCain would defeat her soundly.

But nothing is certain in politics except one thing: If Hillary loses we will be hearing for years from the media and certain Democrats that she lost because she was toooooo liberal.

But sadly, there isn't a Democrat that I am aware of at this point in time that I believe could beat John McCain if he were to get the Republican nomination. I do strongly sense, however, that there are stronger candidates our party could put up against McCain than Hillary Clinton. If he is the Republican candidate, regardless of what condition the country is in after three more years of Shrub's "leadership", it will be a nearly impossible uphill battle for the Dems to beat him. I truly hate to be such a doom-and-gloomer; I just have a very hard time seeing the situation any differently.

I think our best chance regarding McCain is that the fundies and wingnuts eat him alive like they did in the '00 Republican primary. I believe he has already been positioning himself to appeal to these people with his (literal) embrace of Shrub in '04, his playing-up of his always-hawkish military stances, and recent refusal in a Larry King interview to say anything bad about the religious right (a much different tune than he was singing in the '00 primaries).