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Question: Tookie...yes I know...another one!

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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:52 PM
Original message
Question: Tookie...yes I know...another one!
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 07:56 PM by Texasgal
Since no one wanted to take this question on another thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5582126&mesg_id=5582201

And this is a very sincere question.

Please, no flames... I am trying to discuss this rationally.

If death is such an "easy way out" Or " a cop out" as I have seen posted on some of these threads... why would Tookie WANT to stay alive and "rot" in jail as some have suggested?

If I was a convicted killer, sentenced to life in prison, I would WANT to take the "easy" way out...ya know?

Seems to me that some Tookie ( not you ) supporters wanted to have him released?

Edit to add link to original question.

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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. NEVER wanted him released
Life in jail, no possible chance for parole.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I said... that SOME...
Not meaning YOU or the OP of the other thread...
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. were there people really wanting him released?
If so...good lord that's scary.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yes... there are some of his supporters that did..
The "original" plea for clemency was for innocence.
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. oy
Wow, did not know that...
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Ia m not a FULL fledged member of the
"let them fry" club! But I will say, that this particular case has raised my ire.

ALOT of his supporters were for his innocence, which bothered me a great deal.

Thank you for not flaming me, I have been scared of DU the last couple of days! :P
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:06 PM
Original message
As have I
I'm simply 100% against the DP; the particulars of this case are of no interest because I don't think they should be, you know?

Anyways....I'm just upset over both sides' plainly emotional manipulation.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
25. Yes...we can agree on that!
Thank you...thank you!

This is what a debate or thread conversation is supposed to be! You are really good, thank you.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm against the death penalty ..
what I would like to see is these sentences commuted to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.

Then, they would truly suffer consequences.
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. If you had to choose...
Between funding some facility to house these people or a social program like school lunches or something, which would you choose?

Keep in mind, I'm not making an argument one way or the other here, I just thought it would be an interesting question.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. False choice.
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 08:12 PM by Maat
Putting someone to death is more expensive than keeping them incarcerated for life - mainly due to due process requirements (court appeal after court appeal).

Therefore, I'd like to save money AND do the right thing by not killing someone via the State, and lowering ourselves to the level of the criminal himself.

AND I'd like to fully fund school lunches.

If we weren't busy invading other nations, we could afford both.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. No,no, that's false. Execution is more expensive than keeping a
person alive for life. There are lots more appeals and appeals where the death penalty is involved. In essence, you pay twice with the death penalty. You pay for the appeals and you pay to keep them alive.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. That's what I meant, Solomon!
Sorry, I was so upset I wrote it backwards!

Corrected now; it makes more sense now.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. I've used the words "easy way out"
but I refer to "easy" for society rather than doing the work to house and care for him and deal with him.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. I think easy way out is subjective
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 07:57 PM by XanaDUer
Maybe even something a convict would think of as being "easy" until death is staring him/her in the face. Our own deaths are easier to contemplate as long as it is abstract and supposedly in the far-off future.

I would not want to be put to death in any way if I was in prison. I would have to be in prison to know if that attitude would change. I am speaking now as someone NOT in prison/jail for life.

I am opposed to the DP, btw.

EDIT:Typo.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. I have known a few gang members from prison
They speak a lot of the prestige they had while locked up. They all spoke of the crime circles within the prison walls they were a part of as well.
Survival instincts probably play a strong role as well.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Then I would ask ..
why we don't have more effective incarceration.

Surely the richest, most advanced nation in the World could think of a way to do that. To see what is possible, one need only look north to Canada, who is fully testing some apparently very effective ways at rehabilitation, and keeping all inmates safe, and greatly reducing criminal activity.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. The US incarceration system has little to nothing
to do with rehabilitation. It is purely for punishment purposes. Many people believe rehabilitation is impossible and I believe many cases can be made to support that. I could also argue that many people that could have been rehabilitated will forever live a life of crime because they were simply punished by jail and rehab programs are nonexistent.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Oh, I agree with you that we really aren't aiming at rehabilitation ..
and the right incarceration environment.

We SHOULD be; of course, I'm not holding my breath.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. No I won't hold my breath either...America has a
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 08:23 PM by obxhead
once guilty always guilty mentality running through a majority of it's minds.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. Yes, and that's misguided.
Despite all of the hype, I have seen many rehabilitate their lives and became relatively successful; it was as simple as a person determining that he or she had hit rock bottom, and they were changing their lives from there, with counseling, etc., one by one.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. How can we speak for...
...Tookie as to why he wants life without parole? I would be only guessing on an answer.

Also how can we speak for those who want Tookie released? I know I don't. But I also know I don't want to see him die tonight.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. We can't speak for Tookie certainly...
But alot of people HAVE spoken for him.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. Maybe so...
...but a lot of people have also spoken about the reasons they are against state sanctioned murder (not to be confused with speaking for Tookie.) While others have shown how black and white they truly can be.
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henslee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. I think Tookie is a uniqe case in that his celebrity and activism provides
him with an intellectual/social outlet/an inner life not enjoyed by your average DR inmate. So instead of rotting in jail... he answers fan letters, reads his newspaper clippings, chats with screws and inmates who are probably enamoured with him. He probably has a pretty good time, considering. He certainly spends time on his hairdo.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Celebrity status happens from time to time for some inmates.
Caryl Chessman wrote four best-sellers from death row.

Jack Abbott had Norman Mailer, and other celebrities, working to free him. Once free, he murdered again.

Ted Bundy had groupies who claimed his innocence.

Mumia has groupies who are trying to free him.

Robert Stroud (Birdman of Alcatraz) had a movie made about him that portrayed him as a victim of the system. Reality - He was a vicious violent murderer - twice.
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theshadow Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. For the average con, life in prison would be.....
...a never-ending death. I have a hunch for a kingpin like Tookie, it would be easier. In the hierarchy of the population, he would be at the top. No one will mess with him. He has a lot of contact with the outside world via his writing. It may be easier for him to take the life sentence.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. I'm not a supporter of the DP
But here is my answer. The killer would want to stay alive for the same reason they killed. A large percentage of killers kill because they suffer from delusions of grandeur.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. GREAT answer!
Thank you Johnnie!

THis was what I was looking for!
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
27. Maybe, just MAYBE, he is sincere in his efforts to save others from
following the path he did? Maybe, despite all the doubts displayed by many here, his efforts to convince kids to stay out of gangs were sincere? Maybe his books were an honest effort at redemption? Perhaps he actually DID look at his life, see how badly it was fucked up and maybe he actually DID decide to try to redeem himself by convincing others not to do what he did?

Maybe . . . . .
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. And while I can understand your sentiment...
Maybe not, maybe he is just trying to save his own ass, so to speak.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Of course, if you'd actually paid attention to anything the man said
you'd know that isn't actually the case either.

Ah well, no matter now, you've had your way, the man is dead.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
28. My question: How can you ask for clemency for someone who doesn't
admit doing the crime?

How can you argue for life in prison for someone who says he didn't do it?
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. After 25 years of
appeals... I'd say, it's time to join the redemption club.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I don't see how that answers my question.
For his advocates who argued for life in prison, how can they ask for that when the guy says he's innocent?
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
32. Ask him. (No...
I'm not being snarky here)

There are almost 3,400 people on death row across the country right now, and the only thing they have in common is that they were convicted of a terrible crime.

Some are miserable, and want to end it, even to the extent of ordering their lawyers to stop their appeals.

Some are hopeful of release or commutation.

And, some have simply managed to accept their circumstances, come what may, and made the best of it.
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