This isn't about Tookie Willliams--it's about the death penalty.

I think Williams is guilty as sin---and he should spend the rest of his life behind bars.

But if you're for the execution of this guy, then in my mind you're just as bad as Tookie Williams...Why? because you have murder in your heart.

If you want to see Tookie executed then you are 100 percent for the death penalty... not 25 percent---not 50 percent--- but 100 percent.

How's it feel to have murder in your soul? What's your explanation going to be when they execute an innocent man or woman?--which by the way out of the 1000 they've killed so far, I can bet that maybe there's been one or 2. Are you OK with that? Oh---it's the price we have to pay? Oh really... Well then you're a murderer for supporting it.

And you call yourself liberals when in reality you're nothing more than a bunch of cheap punks who thirst for revenge and death.

:thumbsup:

I agree with you here, but in a sense I also think it is murder to let someone like Terri Schiavo dehydrate.

a living will and under no circumstances would i want to be in the state that she was. the method used was apparently the only way that they could do it and i'm sure she didn't know what was happening.

Your right, she probably had NO clue what was going on, but there is still a small sliver of a chance she did? I wish, at least, they could have used a method of injection to stop her heart, or something along those lines.

done in the netherlands. if you're terminal you discuss it with your doctor and he gives you what you need. actually it's done here too. i've heard that terminal patients are sometimes sent home with a lot of morphine so that a family member can inject a lethal amount. but they want it hushed up.

and because conservatives have fought right-to-die laws, Michael Schaivo had no other lawful way to euthanize her any other way but to starve her. But this thread is about Tookie Williams, right?

small sliver of chance that she had any conscious thought at all.

Welcome to DU.

I realized I was wrong. They said her brain was liquid or something. If they had euthanasia in this country it would be much better.

Boy oh boy - did I get flamed at DU when I said I'd like to keep Terri alive!! My father was in and out of comas before he died and I think I identified Terri's condition with my Father's. Vicious attacks from other DUers! One lady called me anti-marriage! It really made me think twice before posting here. However, I got flamed the worst at kos when I said I thought the election was tampered with -- that was REALLY terrible. I still don't go to kos because of it.

It is all in the timing of each case. Schivo's case should of never went on as long as it did., what almost 20 years???....I blame the parents for that cruelty. And yes, dehydration was a miserable way to expire even for a vegetable. Tookie, his case has been in appeal for 20 years....Since he remained social, interactive and participated in life, he had something to show for his "waiting time"......If both had cases had been timely or promptly processed, then we wouldn't be so divided.

Her heart beat and she could breath. She couldn't do much else. absolutely no higher brain functions. She had no brain to function.

of innocent people already. Hiding behind the State is not going to save us.

where's the love?

:rofl:

I love it when we find new pics.... we keep it going don't we baby?

:*

I don't care what the others say.

is the people who call themselves pro-life and believe in the death penalty.

You are right, of course.

It's not about Tookie. Those who support the death penalty support the killing of innocents, which if we haven't done already we surely will at some point.

To them, revenge is worth the uneccesary murder of innocents.

It's pathetic, and so are supporters of the death penalty.

about getting the death chamber ready, the rubber gloves, etc. i'm getting chills just thinking about it. it's legal murder as far as i'm concerned.

about the execution of the 1000th prisoner, Kenneth Lee Boyd, on December 2nd?

I asked the same question on this post..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5582759

but you know Hollywood...

not Hollywood. Are you saying we are that easily swayed by Hollywood?

to get off our asses and discuss this shit... I see your point and I agree with where you're going with it.... I'm just saying that we need to forget the name and concentrate on the death penalty.

Someone who might not otherwise weigh in on the DP issue might be more tempted if 2/3's of the threads on the front page of GD deal with the issue.

Not another fucking syllable needs to be said about Tookie.

I am so tired of the Trendy Topical Talk o' The Week bullshit. Especially when far more is at stake for far more people, none of which ever did such gruesome killing which became an impetus for following Jesus and saying "I'm okay now, I've found God. Let me go."

Only Jesus can forgive. Last time I checked, Jesus ain't around. And Jesus didn't need to kill to find himself either.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5583087

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5581866

is an avowed white supremacist. I assume we'll see the same outpouring of sympathy and outrage here at DU as we've seen for "Tookie." Surely celebrities will demand his life be spared. Jesse Jackson will travel to San Quentin to take part in the protests.

Right? :sarcasm:

trumad, you said it very well.

No one was all that worked up over OTHER executions.

for your honest and your TRUTH.

I'm pleased to find that we agree on this, in the midst of so many bloodthirsty fuckers.

Well said. :toast:

Why would they give a person a set of clean clothes right before they execute him as if they are going to a ceremony or something......this is so crazy. I don't get it.

don't agree with you a "bunch of cheap punks who thirst for revenge and death". :eyes: Get over yourself. Now, unless they're what you believe, differing opinions are no longer valid and you're reduced to name-calling? And you call yourself a liberal... your words, BTW.

Especially in the discrimatory way it is applied.

... a 'non-discriminatory' and 'fair' capital punishment process. It's as insane and deluded as 'separate but equal.'

You lost me.

It is inevitable that innocents will be executed.

No system of justice is perfect; that is why, regardless of whether you believe the guilty deserve death, the death penalty is DEAD WRONG.

...not an ethical issue, but a practical one. Under the present system we will inevitably execute innocent people. It's really hard to bring somebody back to life if you later find that you're wrong...

Say we only executed people against whom there was overwhelming evidence AND a persistent confession? That would pretty much rule out murdering innocents, wouldn't it?

There is no perfect system, period.

that somebody innocent will be executed?

Or are you contending that, regardless of the case, we're NEVER sure that somebody is guilty of a crime they're charged with?

is based on the fact that we are never 100% sure that someone will not be wrongly convicted of a crime.

My position is based on the fact because it is the most non-debateable fact when debating opponents of the death penalty.

I consider all other considerations (is the death penalty for the guilty morally wrong, etc.) secondary to this essential fact.

What if the laws were changed so that the ONLY people eligible for the death penalty were those who, in addition to substantial evidence against them, maintained persistent confessions (confessions that continued past the initial statement and into the trial)? Those people are TELLING us they're guilty...there's no possibility of executing an innocent person.

This is a sad sad night.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5583308&mesg_id=5583308
Why do we want to be like the least civilized countries in the world?

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... its just these people making the case for tookie as an exception that have gotten under my skin. I didn't give a rats ass about Carla Faye Tucker and I don't care about Tookie. Both, as far as I am concerned, are hustlers trying to save their lives after taking others' lives.

no one - NO ONE has the right to make a decision to kill another, regardless of how justified the reason may seem. It's barbaric and certainly not a form of punishment.

We need to set a higher standard for ourselves than the killers, it is the only way we will ever advance as a species.

Some of our fellow citizens had the option of sentencing Tookie to life without parole and thought he deserved worse. Sure, I don't know if they were racist or how compelling the trial evidence was, but that ship has sailed.

I'd be happy changing the laws to exclude the DP, but I am not happy with this post hoc resentencing movement just because he is a celebrity. Have you ever read one of Tookie's books? I have -- they're horrible.

I'm certainly not an advocate for him. His celebrity is spurring a great deal of attention - maybe the attention will shine a light on the fact that the laws need to change. That the death penalty is barbaric and not a form of punishment.

to how the victims were murdered.

pun·ish·ment
1.
1. The act or an instance of punishing.
2. The condition of being punished.
2. A penalty imposed for wrongdoing: “The severity of the punishment must... be in keeping with the kind of obligation which has been violated” (Simone Weil).
3. Rough handling; mistreatment: These old skis have taken a lot of punishment over the years.


I am ambivalent about whether or not it is barbaric is something.

it is made 'PERSONAL' by the M$M and many eat it up

peace

nm

:yourock:

The death penalty is wrong. Period. Guilt or innocence, the character of the person... all entirely beside the point.

It is wrong for the state to take a life. I do not wish to be forceably associated with a murder. Everytime the state, any state, takes a life by executing a prisoner, I am made complicit in that murder.

State-sanctioned or no, murder is wrong. And the penalty is rightfully life in prison.

Right now, if one is pro death penalty, one must be racist.

or at least about their own naive ideas about him.

Your position is at least consistent. You would save Tookie, and Jeffrey Dahmer, and Joseph Duncan, and everyone who ever raped and enslaved and then murdered an innocent child. At least you have your eyes open about whom you are saving. I can't agree with you about the death penalty in these cases, but I respect your consistency and the fact that you have your eyes open.

It is the ludicrous posts about Tookie's "class" and honor, and those that dispute whether he even committed a crime, that are just plain embarrassing and make me want to throw up. Some people have obviously never met a real sociopath.

respect that about it

However, your post highlights one of the many real problems with the death penalty; It is applied based on a juries own very naive ideas about the defendent in any capital case.

Are there no wealthy white sociopaths? If the death penalty is somehow reserved for vicious sociopaths, how come they are so overwhelmingly poor, so disproportionatly people of color, and male?

You are right and the OP is right, this isn't about Tookie. This is about us.

and the only reason that Tookie is even being mentioned is that because his "celebrity" and the media attention has reignited the debate.

Yes, we should have this debate about every person who is executed by the state. Perhaps if every death sentence carried out receieved the same media coverage as Tookie's case, then we would be holding this debate more often.

Maybe it says more about our society that so many executions are carried out completely without media coverage. Maybe Americans have become jaded with killing, whether done in Iraq, or in the US prison system.

Sid

pre-meditated killing is wrong.

I take it with a grain of salt, because by your standards:

And you call yourself liberals when in reality you're nothing more than a bunch of cheap punks who thirst for revenge and death.

I am pro DP, so I am a punk by your standards...the division starts...:) No wonder why we lose the moderates, or the middle road voters...but alas, you will probably state, that we dont' need those type of punks/idiots/morons etc.....but again, flame away...i got me a nice new *flame suit*....

Oh please...not that tired old argument.... But let me ask you this... How do you reconcile the fact that innocent people may have been executed out of the 1000 that have been? You do know that there have been several incidents of people being exonerated who were on death row.

So==== help me out here... is that OK with you that some innocents would die?

I'm not arguing for the DP or against it...but the way in which you called people punks, becaused they believe in the DP, is what causes people to be distant. Would you believe or interact with someone who jumps down your throat, if you don't agree with them? Would you?

Thats what I'm talking about, the division...if people voice their opinion and get jumped on, they will be distant...that is what happnes to a certain degree to moderates, on both sides of the isle...

I have been jumped on numerous times because of my DP views, and I haven't seen a educational, or tasteful debate on any DP thread, without it coming down to insults...the minute someone says they are for the DP, they are automatically duped a GWB RW Nut job, barbaric, idiot, moron and by your own word "punk".....

Well said. Tookie was a thug and deserves to be kept from society and imprisoned for the rest of his live. But nobody, absolutely nobody deserves to die at the hands of the state. That is wrong, and it puts blood on all of our hands.

I don't consider abortion murder.

I don't consider killing the enemy on a battlefield during a war to be murder.

I don't considerr the death penalty to be murder.

Hoiw does it feel to be on the same moral ground as an anti-choicer?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

generally resorted to when the complainer has no argument.

Honestly - I think abortion may be wrong. BUT - a fetus is completely dependent on another human being for survival. I don't know if people should be required by law to support another human being.

For example, is it a law to jump in the water and save a person you see drowning? Most might say it is immoral to allow another person to drown, but should there be a law requiring people to do everything in their power to keep another person alive? (Not to mention that a fetus might not even have a nervous system when it is aborted.)

War is also a gray area. I think a war of aggression is murder. I think a war of defense, like England and France in WWII (and the US for helping them) can be justified.

I concur. I was uncomfortable with raising a thug to celebrity status, but i thought the sentence should be commuted to "behind bars forever". Of course, i think that about all DP cases.

We've made way too many "mistakes" here in Illinois for me to ever believe that we really will get it right, and since nothing is ever 100% absolutely for sure, we should just incarcerate really bad people. The killing thing isn't justice. It's vengeance. Those are, to me, philosophical opposites.
The Professor

I think that the death penalty is immoral, but my reasoning is not that killing is necessarily* always immoral but that if you're going to execute anyone then inevitably you're sometimes going to execute innocent people.

I think there may* be some people on death row (or elsewhere), for whom the death penalty is not inappropriate, but I have no way of knowing which ones they are I think the only moral solution is not to execute anyone.

If I (or the state) were omniscient I might* well be pro death penalty in a few cases, but as I'm not I'm not.

I also think that the US (and many other nations with the death penalty) apply it far, far too widely - a lot of people are executed who clearly shouldn't be executed even if they are guilty of everything they're accused of.


* I'm not necessarily dismissing the "ritual human sacrifice is barbaric" argument, but I think it's much less decisive than the "sometimes you kill innocent people" argument, and less clear-cut than you make it out to be - some people do do very bad things, and it's at least not self-evident that murdering them is a disproportionate response.

And good to see you tru! :hi:

Tell us how you really feel!

:applause:

Could you perhaps give lessons in clarity of language and purpose to our esteemed representatives in Washington?

The guy who decided to drop the atom bombs on Japan? And you are standing around complaining about the death penalty for murderers. The detachment from reality here is astounding...Even if its all about saving lives, you've got to think triage at a certain point, and saving the lives of convicted murderers really should go way, way, way below saving the lives of innocents, and there is a lot of work to be done in that field in present days, my friend!

Wow---that was a good strawman....

quit debating this issue as though you are in a vacuum. US law did not originate from the bible. The bible and judeo-christian beliefs have influenced the creation of law over the last 2000 years in the west but not defined it.

The Code Duello, the Bloodgeld and germanic/barbarian cultural influences had a large impact on what punishment was deemed necessary. It wasn't until Victorian Days that people began to see imprisonment and rehabilitation as viable (and less barbaric) forms of punishment.

Which leads me to my point,not everyone agrees on what constitutes punishment. And so the proper debate IMHO is what is the proper punishment for "Crime X". Person A says death, Person B days life imprisonment, and Person C says reeducation ala A Clockwork Orange.

Now the next point about punishment is do believe in one standard? By which I mean, every person convicted of murder always receives the same sentence. Do you support things like Hate Crimes Legislation? Because in my mind, that means you believe each case needs to be looked at separately and that leads back into some peoples positions that the DP is warranted for one murderer but not all of them.

Everyone looks at "punishment" in a separate way. Personally, I am against the State having the power to kill us, but I'll admit I have no idea what was an appropriate punishment for Tookie...

I haven't posted on this issue because it seems so obvious that the death penalty is barbaric and wrong. Why argue about something so obvious. If people don't get it - my guess is you won't convince them.

It does not deter crime, it does not even save money, it is about revenge. Who wants a government that bothers with revenge? No truly civilized nation would even consider the death penalty.

By the way - WWJD? What would Jesus do? I'm guessing he'd be strongly against the death penalty - like the Pope was.

Edit to add: I'm a liar - I have three posts in this thread.

it's about them. Perhaps, they need death to know they are alive? Whatever it is, it's alarming.

You're nothing but an arrogant blowhard.

How does it feel to have superciliousness in your soul?

I am sorry that I cannot be as perfectly liberal as you, but your fifth grade discourse is not very convincing. Let's divide DU into the anti-DP crips and the pro-DP bloods and have a verbal gang war. We hate each other at least as much as we hate the BFEE, don't we?

I have written emails to several parole boards asking for clemency, but I would not in this case. Have you done anything for Tookie except call your fellow DUers names?

who find it OK to murder a human being... Poor Babies...

I'm so glad you pick and choose who's good enough to save and who should die...

Kind of a God feeling isn't it?

about the "DP" and "tookie".

I really didn't have too much of an opinion on the death penalty.
There are vermin, like Gacy & Darmer, that prey on the innocent and hunt them down, torture, rape and disembowel. And there's "tookie".
I am for upholding the laws. If you don't like the law, do something to change it. There are people who are innocent in prison. Victims of crimes are innocent. When a man or woman uses a gun to kill to prevent being identified, shoots someone in the back, in the face. WTF do you people hear yourselves? You are making a martyr out of him.

Be against the death penalty, fine. Do something to change the law. Just stand on that. You change your argument by equating the "Tookie" wrote books so he doesn't "deserve" to die. The people who were murdered didn't deserve to die, he dug his grave when he took their lives. He was the leader of a gang not a bystander at a game.

There were brutal murders in 2005 in the area I live in. 2 teachers. The 15 yr. old murder wanted to be in a gang, and stabbed a much loved teacher, left him bleeding to death, boys were pissed because they had to walk home. They'll get live. The widow and her baby have their memories.
The other a college teacher, this was a good friend, a retired cop, went fishing or hunting, came home played cards, argued, he's dead.

Guy in his 30's kidnapped his estranged wife and held her captive in another state, came back and murdered her mother and father. Stayed on the loose for a year, came back and killed a mother and her daughter, don't know why, no relation. Ended his own life with a bullet to the head.
Then we have the father of two young beautiful children, kills their mother, his wife, only in their 30's, the next day kills the two children.
He could have let them live. He never left the house, just waited 24 hrs. to end their life.

I'm not the judge. I wouldn't want to be the one to hear the brutality of these killings. Here's someone just going about their life, and for no reason, they have no chance to breath another breath, to live one more day, and no one screaming outside to let them live, because of that murderous human, they have NO SAY. They suffered and died by their killers hand. Bleeding to death, how about those little children who realized their father, who was suppose to love them, who they trusted...

The DP was created to punish the criminal who has no regard for life.
You can't give a statistic to say it didn't prevent someone from killing. You can't prove that. Your cause, "tookie" did very well, got 20 plus years more to live and change his life and have epiphanies, and get immortalized. His victims, got to be corpses. They could have been writers, doctors, or just like us. He made the decision, the system is upholding the law.

What about all the children and innocents people, including our own sons and daughters dying in the M.E.? You doing something about that and do you have "murder on your soul" because you do nothing to help?

You support a known killer....have you supported those who are sacrificing their lives by being in the military? Some are in dispair, they could use a card of hope for their future. 37 cent stamp. Anysoldier.com
Pick a name.
Maybe say thank you.
Because of you, and the history of military sacrifice, I have the freedom to call people "cheap punks who thirst for revenge and death" and am free to pick what causes I put energy into. I know freedom is not free, do you?