Amazing how truly divided DUers are over the Tookie issue

I have always thought that DUers are generally like-minded people, but this has been fascinating to watch, a real divide, people on here are on completely opposite sides of this issue.

Here is a simple YES or NO poll:

Californians should vote on the death penalty. If 50 percent are for and 50 percent are against then 50% of the death penalty sentences should be commuted to life inprisonment. They could have a drawing of black and white marbles.

Difficult to get more black & white than that.

The only thing that is truly black and white is mathematics. And even then, I'm not entirely sure ALL areas of higher math doesn't have some shades of gray.

Lots of people think in black and white terms. How many people on DU think Bush is absolutely evil? That's a black adn white issue to a lot of people.

but this thread isn't about * now is it!

The DP is a very serious matter to all of us. True enough that many of us see it as being administered disporportionally to Blacks & the impoverished.

Your silly comparison to bush** is just that...silly. Bush** is a war criminal & a mass murderer who has done little to concele his crimes. He is not the slob-bastard who lives next door to you---he was born to a multi-mllionaire family who has been involved with the destruction of this country for many decades.

By "DP" do you mean the Democratic party?

I was speaking specifically about people thinking in terms of Black and White.

Who'da thunk it?

the issue of the death penalty isn't simple.

It's gross.

They don't have to kill this man, and they're going to, in all of our names. For no good reason.

He isn't a threat to anyone.

There are very small exceptions for me to my opposition to the death penalty. But, you know, even when they executed Timothy McVeigh, it sickened me.

the world/California/humanity/people benefit in any way from having Tookie around? or is the cost of keeping him alive outweight the benefits? If there is a chance that benefits are greater, then he should live.

of our society.

Our representative government is about to take the life of an at this point defenseless man.

either side of the argument.

nt

.... that so many here have that is pissing me off. Hey, you people are just like fundies. YOU and ONLY YOU know what is right! Congratulations!

We're each entitled to our own thoughts on this issue. Being accused of being a "freeper" because you don't fit the mold of what somebody else thinks a "Democrat" should be is bull.

are finally dealt with.

The tookietalk is like ignoring OUR basic freedoms in favor of one facet of one generally divisive issue, which I get the distinct feeling some people want...

Especially when you compare the concept of walking in fear of squashing on an ant underfoot.

...so I haven't been able to decide if I am pro-Tookie or anti-Tookie. It's all about whether someone really *can* redeem himself after the things he has been accused of doing. But I would have accepted life without parole. It's not like Tookie would just walk out of jail. The way the Right-wingers talk, you would think that clemency meant that Tookie would walk out of jail a free man. Not so.

Tammy

I'm conflicted about the DP as a policy, however. I don't know if I wholeheartedly support executing people (including Tookie).

I am ok with Tookie's death, I am not ok with the state killing him.

The death penalty is not about who he is, it is about who we are.

That's exactly where I'm at with this.

"the death penalty is not about who he is, it is about who we are."

I learned that as a social worker. I have a hard time expressing this, but I have been in a holding cell reading the parent his or her rights, in Dependency Court. I met many a self-involved worthless unrepentant piece of crud who harmed or killed a child (usually theirs).

As I sat there, I realized that I never wanted to lower myself to their level, and I felt that I would be lowered, as a taxpayer, if the State killed in my name.

I'm probably not explaining that well, but it is just what I feel in my heart.

Al Franken was talking this afternoon about what a great toll death row takes on the Corrections officers who work there. And how the death penalty is 20 years of drawn out torture- sanctioned by the state.

Just another reason to oppose it, and oppose I have for many years.

I'm glad Al spoke up about it.

since what's going to happen in a few hours is the state's going to kill him.

Is that most of the country is more than ok with Tookie's death too. DU is not representative of the majority of the country and not necessarily even the majority of Demcrats.

Especially when they see a lot of people engaging in a campaign to prove they're holier than thou.

was also true in the 2004 election. I'm glad DU is frequently at odds with majority opinion.

prison, suffer more in a box for life, too many innocent people killed, DNA has proven that. Death penalty sucks ass! Eye for an eye makes the world blind!

I have always had problems with this statement: "Eye for an eye makes the world blind!"

It simply untrue. The only people left blind would be those who were the victim of a blinding and the ones perpetrating blindness.

then somebody blinds him because he blinded me and so on and so forth, until noone can fucking see....see?

with the idea of justice meted out by courts or duly elected representation. If you just wanted to speak in terms of schoolyard justice, sure, but that's not the way the death penalty works.

It's the language that really surprises me. Even if someone said "I support the death penalty and it's sad all around, but that's the law" I could understand it. I do not get the "fry him" mentality.

this good or bad? I can't decide/know...

I am normally against the death penalty and I have mixed feelings about Tookie Williams facing death until I think of what his actions did to my neighborhood and generations of my people. Perhpas it would take actually living through the loss of friends and family members, directly related to gang violence, to be able to understand. Or perhaps you would have had to live in a neighborhood, once livable, that during the 80s became so dangerous and violent that the residents became prisoners in their own homes. Perhaps the terror of nightly shoot-outs and funerals of friends you loved that were gone way too soon would help you to understand. I don't know, I don't have all the answers. I wish Tookie Williams had chosen a different path a lot earlier in life-- perhaps if he had 10,000+ lives would have been spared and many, many tears would have never been cried and perhaps we would have far fewer black men in prison today. I will pray for Tookie Williams to rest in peace and I will pray for the damage done to our neighborhoods and our race to be undone.

What will killing him accomplish other than proving that we can be just as bad as he is?

But I'm not going to cry about his punishment. I honestly feel those tear have been all used up on the many unnecessary deaths that I've seen directly related to gang activity.

exception from the legal penalty for this individual.

I'm looking to stop the practice.

Are you saying that since some have been executed, others shouldn't have any better? That we should just go on doing it wrong?

row I don't see why he should do it in this case.

I am opposed to the death penalty and I'd like to see it banned. But since it's not banned, I don't know why this case should be different than any other.

is a good thing no matter what.

It sounds as if you just don't like the celebrity that is going along with what he did.

If granted, his clemency has more to do with having a PR rep than the merits of his case, or evenn principle of the DP.

If it's wrong (and I think it is), then it's wrong for everyone - not just the person with the best PR.

So- it's wrong. The fact that he has a PR person doesn't change that.

It's the legal penalty. If it's wrong, overturn the penalty - not just for those with PR.

But I'd say the same thing in that case- if it's "wrong," it's wrong. Alec Baldwin shouldn't get the ticket, even if everyone else is getting one. No one else should be, either.

penalty, I think granting him clemency while leaving the penalty in place for others badly diminishes the integrity of the judicial system.

not going to make your neighborhood better, not going to bring back a single victim. I believe in forgiveness as Christ advised us to do. I also believe that people can change and Tookie appeared to have done that. Even if my family member had been a victim of Tookie's I would not support his execution. I deeply believe in the commandment that we should not kill. People who are seeking Tookie's death are seeking revenge as his death will accomplish absolutely nothing.

I think the death penalty is barbaric and cruel. I think it's racist in the way it is meted out and has no place in a civilized society. That being said, I have no tears for Tookie and the evil he spread throughout our community. I have stayed out of this debate until tonight because I would have been okay with Tookie spending the rest of his days in prison, but I just find it difficult to mourn someone who helped destroy entire communities, lives, and families. I'm sorry, that may be wrong but it's just how I feel.

May God have mercy on his soul.

n/t

It puts America in a league with Saudi Arabia and a few other primitive cultures.

California being an entertainment state, you'd think they'd come up with a more exciting way to stage executions.

They should bring Tookie to a stadium. State of CA could sell tickets for people to watch the execution. However, they'd need to liven things up a bit, just so people get their money's worth....maybe have Tookie run around and try to stave off a pit bill or mud wrestle with some man eating pigs.

This would be good family entertainment for freepers. The money could go for new roads or something. Plus, Tookie gets plenty of the publicity he is seeking.

....have our blood-lust satisfied, Tookie will do....but couldn't we find someone more deserving?....someone who's killed thousands?....

To me, state sponsored murder (which is what the DP is) is morally wrong. When the state takes a life to "protect society" or "to meet out justice" it is lowering itself to the level of the individual who committed the murder -- I would also add that society is not and never has been made safer through State Murder.
There is no compelling evidence that I have been shown that executing (murdering) people keeps the crime rate down. When we compare our Liberal Democracy with other Liberal Democracies that don't murder it's citizens the opposite seems to be true. European countries are safer to travel in than the US is. Holland, which is one of the most densely populated countries in the world has a very small murder rate -- in terms of both numbers and proportional to the population. Sociologists would tell us the opposite should be true. The more densely populated an area is the higher the crime rate and incidence of violence should be, yet this is not the case.
In the US, Texas a very high murder rate compared to the rest of the nation and it has the highest execution rate in the country.
A note of irony here:
In August, Williams received a President's Call to Service Award for his good deeds on death row, complete with a letter from President Bush praising him for demonstrating "the outstanding character of America."

The arguement over state sponsored murder here appears to fall on how the issue is perceived, Pro-killing the focus is on Tookie, Anti-killing State sponsored murder demeans society and therefore it is wrong.

with my religious beliefs in mind, it leads me to take the stand that revenge is God's not ours. Our role is not to dole out retribution but we do have the right to protect society from criminals. That can be accomplished by keeping them in prison for life. I tend to waver on the death penalty sometimes though, so I don't vehemently disagree with either stance on this issue. Sometimes I think the death penalty might be justified for certain cases where the perpetrator murders in cold blood for the sheer joy of murdering and terrorizing someone helpless, like a child or woman. If a person like that were to ever escape, they would most certainly murder again so I wonder if the death penalty might be self-defense in these cases. Then other times I think no, the death penalty is not acceptable in any case.

So, my stance is not cemented with this issue. I've always wavered back and forth on this one.

margin... Looks like it was a vocal "Pro-DP" crowd driving most of the posts. Not so much division...just a vocal group for one side over the other. :shrug:

there on Page 1 of GD..

You probably aren't doing so intentionally, but you are helping to define the "teams" when that is an oversimplification of the situation. This isn't a for or against issue, it's actually quite complex. There are a number of factors that contribute to how one feels about this: whether one thinks the death penalty is wrong, whether one feels murderers should be put to death, whether one forgives Tookie for his murders of innocent people, whether one has had senseless murder close to them in their lives, whether one believes Blacks are unfairly and disproportionately put to death, whether one is uncertain but had their opinion attacked and are now defensive, whether one is having a hard time this holiday season and wants to take it out on a message board. The list goes on, these are just what I can think of in a minute. This issue may appear to divide us into two camps, but that is deceptively false.

after seeing the photo on local Los Angeles TV showing the poor guy he shot in the back lying face down in a pool of blood, I had to think twice. Here's a poor guy working in a convenient store who gives up the money and then is gunned down- shot in the back no less.

When I was a teenager, my boyfriend at the time worked at a 7-11 and was robbed. They marched him into the fridge and he thought he was going to die. If they had shot him, I'd have wanted the perpetrators to receive the death penalty. So I can see how the victim's family feels.

but because I feel the DP is wrong in all cases.

I try to be a part of the group, upstanding and noble, but in my heart of hearts,
I know if someone I deeply loved was viciously and brutally murdered, I would want revenge.
Until a person is faced with this horror, it's almost impossible to say how one would truly
feel or react in this circumstance. Twenty years ago, when my little brother (who helped the church
deliver food to shutins) was kicked and beaten almost unconscious by some young punks
trying to take his money. I went after them to beat the crap out of them. Lucky for them (and
probably me) I never found them, but if I had, I would have wiped the street with them. I'm sure there
are those of you here that would have taken a different approach, but I know if some asshole
purposely murdered someone I love, I wouldn't want them spared the death penalty.