How much hate is in your heart to watch someone get executed?

To actually sit there want watch people take another human life? And not blink, flinch or care! How much hate is there in a person that they can do that and be considered normal?

How can someone in good conscience not want to stop an execution, instead of sitting passively by and doing nothing? And then, talk about it like you would talk about a football game, like Rita Cosby did?

Honestly, someone who need to explain to me how a person can actually watch another person die? Even if you don't know the person, it's still a human being!!! You're watching people execute another human person, then walking away like you just watched a movie in the theater. I don't understand that! Someone needs to explain that to me!

And I mean alot of someones. I'm 27 and I don't understand the hatred anymore, or the bloodlust! Are we so blood thirsty and barbaric we actually watch and enjoy this with voyeuristic glee?

I guess that's the empath me. I would rather them live in jail.

What if it was a Nazi? Could you watch then?

On edit: I mean one from 1945, not a neo-Nazi.

I could not watch another human being's life taken...

However, I can understand what you are saying. I have thought about this issue many times this week. I have several images on my computer from the Holocaust (I do diversity programming), and I thought..."could I watch a Nazi hang?"

I think I could. I am not proud of it. I know, logically, nothing really changes other than another death. I am anti-DP, but it is those extremes that give me pause.

As a witch too (I know you know Jews can be witches), even the karmic issue doesn't concern me. I try to be empathetic to all people. But, when it comes to wanton killing, I just can't get in the mind-frame to understand it. I understand the 'desire,' as we all want to 'kill' someone. But, the actual killing, I have a hard time, except when it is a mass murderer. So, then I question myself...if it is numbers...what number it is unacceptable?

It's times like this I wish I was a bunny. I wouldn't have to think such things. :)

but I felt a need to answer it anyway...I have been asking myself some hard questions as well. The karma thing leads to some very difficult dilemmas. I hope that one day, this nation can rise above petty vengeance and seek true justice.

One of my best witch friends is also Jewish!

...I didn't intend that at all. I am glad you did respond.

I hope, not our nation, but as a race, human, we can rise above this level of "punishment." I have said many times tonight...Themis weeps!

Jewish witches are fun...but GAY, Jewish witches...we fucking RULE! :woohoo:

My jewish witch friend is strictly het...but she does rock!

..."hets" rock too! Without them...homos wouldn't be here! :P

I am a het!

I hope I rock...my husbands seems to think I do!

I won't question is opinion....but I could test him.... :evilgrin:

I think that murderers who are executed may reincarnate still full of rage and anger, and that can mess them up for a whole future lifetime. If you let them live until they die naturally, they might work out those issues.

Tucker

This is a post that should be posted in the "special" group (the freaky-dinky astrologers, ancient wisdom et al, group). However, what if they are killed, and at that moment (life flashing before the eyes), see what they were? Perhaps, the the could be the next peace maker!

Meanwhile, check your inbox! :hi:

Tucker

Quaker Query on nonviolence.

I can't find the specific reference, but I remember reading a Quaker journal from maybe a hundred years ago where the question of self-defense was raised.

The question was whether or not it was allowable to kill in sef-defense, and one answer was that if the attacker were to kill me, that would be very bad, but if I were to kill the attacker, it would deny him the opportunity to repent, which would be worse.

That's a tough one to put to practical use, but it shows how we think.

I'm an empath and I would still feel guilty. Putting anyone to death. It's not in my soul. One reason why I could never join the military. If I was forced to I would rather go to jail.

I, too, am empathic. However, where does that end? What if the threat was against your own loved ones? Would your empathy prevent you from killing?

On edit: We really need a grammar check! :)

But why would I want to lower myself? I don't think so.

You wouldn't want to "lower" yourself. But....would you be able to prevent it?

but not once did his wife, children, mother, sibblings or other family members even utter a word about seeking the death penalty for his killer. You see he was a peace activist and we are all against the death penalty.

I find it most amusing that people who call themselves christians love revenge so much. It sure makes me glad to be an athiest.

I am not Christian and I am very anti-DP.

I am glad they found peace. But, what about those who can't? Should they be abandoned? Do we need special counselors for them?

You may find those peoples' feelings 'amusing," but I don't. They think it will bring completion. How do we show them, with compassion, that the death of another doesn't do that?

but if the only way someone can find peace is with more murder,then it is not peace they are seeking. It is revenge.

...as you define it.

How are you to say what is "peace" and what is "revenge?"

Tookie died tonight in a sterile environment. His anticipation of death was short. Did his victims experience the same? Would that matter?

I am anti-DP, but who are we to say what will complete the grieving process of another?

"Tookie died tonight in a sterile environment. His anticipation of death was short. Did his victims experience the same? Would that matter?"

Would you prefer they work out the precise time his victims anticipated and that the state deliver the exact scene for his execution. Why not torture and lynch him in a public square with a carnival atmosphere?

Peace and revenge will never have the same meaning. Sure for some people there can be no peace,as in satisfaction, without revenge, but that will never make them peacemakers. Further is satisfaction peace??

Edit -add.

I never said that it should be a "re-enactment" of his victims murders.

I agree that "peace" and "revenge" will never equate. However, as much as you empathize with Tookie, where is your empathy for the victims families?

Tookie? I have not even mentioned his name in a single post on the subject. I do not support the death penalty. Murder for murder makes no sense.

But I don't think I could watch an execution of a "normal" killer. I wouldn't be throwing a party or even smiling, but I could watch it. It's easier if we categorize people, isn't it? And my personal line is drawn at "Nazi." Seems fairly hypocritical, doesn't it? Maybe to some extent, though, that's what being a human being is all about.

You are having some of the same ethical issues I am! I am anti-DP. I would be pleased as punch if DP was declared illegal again in the country. However...there are some...my very soul cannot justify their continuation of life! I would not "dance on anyone's grave" (at least I would hope not), but if they found Milosavich guilty and declared he was to be executed...well, I don't know I could object that strongly (and I wonder how many really would).

My own emotions would run so strong about someone like that, that I do not trust myself to act ethically toward them. It is precisely because the urge to seek vengeance is so powerful that we use a legal system instead of having the wronged party/their family exact revenge.

In the end, if it's unethical to kill a person--and I believe it is--then what is unethical is the act, regardless of the object of that act. This isn't so much about the exectuted man as it is about us, and what we choose to allow our government to do in our name.

Tucker

The DP is so arbitrary. Our own ethics are called into question. Like you, I am also anti-DP, but the thought of a mass (what is mass?) murderer being allowed to continue something (life) they have denied to others is almost sick.

I also agree that I don't like the DP carried out in our name, much like the illegal war in Iraq.

However, ugly as it may be, I know there is a part of me that could watch. I might not take joy in it, but I feel I would experience relief.

or at least I wouldn't approve of it. Witnessing an execution does not necessarily mean approval.

It's easy to have your principles when there are questions of guilt or moderating circumstances. When you have a connection to the crime, or the criminal is so monstrous as to seem inhuman, those principles are tested.

So far, I haven't been personally tested this way, but I have no doubt that my objection to capital punishment is deep enough that I would still refuse to accept the execution.

Justice can be done without killing, and justice without killing is proper justice as far as I'm concerned.

in these forums that, if it were water, would float the Titanic.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

A lack of empathy. A person can have empathy for the victim (that's easy), but it's a lot harder to have empathy for a murderer or other scum. I think that's what Jesus was talking about.

And it's funny, because your post could apply to the people involved in Tookie William's execution, or it could apply to Tookie himself -- at least the Tookie of twenty-five years ago.

I can't comprehend it either.


How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

and years and years. I believe it is a necessary role due to the fact that it is a state-sanctioned actions.

I am generally 100% anti-DP with the exception of treason where the motive was monetary (an obscure but long-held belief). What I did feel this time was a disturbing ambivalence towards the event due to what I felt was some pretty strange and opportunistic thinking from the Tookie supporters that seemed to sometimes discount the victims of his crime, and some corresponding chest-beating by pro-DPers.

Kind of mindless and quite frankly disappointing coming from a fellow Democrat. I already caught you putting words in my mouth once. Care to try again?

you sure seemed for it (the execution)

supporters. My OP earlier this evening was an attempt to understand if Tookie supporters were truly anti-DP or whether there was something different about this case.

and posting.

You were FOR this big time.

I mean you are stalking me for some reason. I must have written something that made me this important to you.

I was bird dogged for days because someone took offense to something I posted in a thread and I had never directly communicated with the person.

Yeesh.

When I first met you, I let you know how I felt about you right away.

And you did the same, IIRC.

We then ended up in one of the most fun threads at about 2 in the morning with some poster that was spouting silly puns.

Remember that?

I seem to meet the best people by pissing them off first.

And I'm never afraid to apologize if I've been unfair.

I HATE to do it, but I will.

This one? Not so fun.

By the way, I think I owe you a mail I just sent you.

I've read many of these threads, and paid attention to tx_dem41's contributions (there are a handful of people whose posts I seek out, and his are among them), and in all that I read I found nothing to support your belief that tx_dem wanted to see anyone executed. Quite the contrary. He was consistently against the DP and, as he says, consistently against those who mindlessly advocated for or against Mr William's specific situation. If you have an alternate view, perhaps you can share it, cite a post or three where tx_dem41 took an opposite stance, then we'll all share in your belief.

I know tx_dem41 and he's not pro DP.

He tends to play devil's advocate and he doesn't let emotion cloud his judgment, but if you read his posts carefully, you can usually find the obvious liberal bias in them.

back that up pretty easily.

All I saw you doing was questioning whether or not DUers were anti-DP or anti-Tookie-DP.

It's a valid question, IMO.

I'm anti-DP but I wouldn't have posted about this particular execution if I hadn't run across someone who was celebrating the man's death in another thread.

I tend to NOT post on DU about things that have such an emotional impact on me.

You just become a target if you do.

Where have you been?!?! I was about to do a 'search' on you to see if you were still around!

:hi: missed ya!

(a 1000 pardons to the OP for going off topic! I should have PM'ed BMUS, but...well, I am just so happy to see BMUS!!!)

I've been away for a while.

I picked a hell of a night to come back, didn't I?

I knew I wouldn't sleep anyway.

Every time there's an execution it bothers me.

I am glad you are well!!

You did a pick a "hell of a night." But, that is in your spirit! I would expect nothing less! I know you are not the "spirit" type...so indulge me. :)

Like you, I am not DP favorable either. However, it does bring up all kinds of ethical questions. I know you love those (ethical questions, not DP)! :)

I am glad you are back!

It ain't the same without BMUS. Just ain't.

...not the same without Bluebear! :)

:grouphug:

Still, it's nice to know I can always count on the voice of sanity appearing somewhere in these threads.

Liberals are supposed to strive to be better, are we not?

...I agree, there are some that insert rationality into irrational situations.

And you make me laugh my ass off at the same time, but that's just a bonus.

...an irrational 'idjit' that amuses you?!

Either way...I am cool with it! LOL!

:party:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5584099&mesg_id=5584469

I was ready to pack it in after that but some of my fellow DUers (BB and tx_dem41 and you, among others) took the high road and I had to stand with them.

I can respect someone being pro-DP, I just can't tolerate it when they celebrate a man's death.

I went around with that one earlier!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5579990&mesg_id=5579990

A normal person would have been tired after that.

I really didn't want to jump in, but man, was I pissed.

After listening to that shit for over two weeks, I thought I could find solace on DU.

Or at least not see people dancing on the man's grave.

#90
Yes. I DO Think Every Gang Member Should Die!

How ELSE do you finally break the backs of the gangs that have taken over and terrorized our neighborhoods...who have made our streets, our towns, and our cities unsafe for the decent people?

Kill em all and let God sort 'em out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5579990&mesg_id=5581371

Well, that and many other things, but that was top of the list tonight.

As big as our country is, and this site is, we should not personally take to heart any singular post. I will not allow people (or posters) to make me feel ashamed to be American, Jewish, a witch, gay, or pro-Israeli, just because it is the "flavor of the moment" or because they think it is "progressive!"

Unlike some here, I can see "grey," where they only see "black and white." I know you understand what I am saying. But, for those reading this who don't "get it," just because someone is not pro-Tookie, doesn't mean they are 'pro-DP!" Just because someone is OK with divergent opinions, doesn't mean they are "sell-outs" to the party. Just because someone is a Jewish senator or Representatives doesn't mean they are are "Israeli-firsters!" Just because someone doesn't think they way you do, doesn't mean they are against "whatever you are railing against!"

Some people need to get a fucking clue. Perhaps they should call Pat Sajack and "buy a vowel,"....the vowel would be "U!" You (U) (not BMUS) need to see that all things are not "black and white" and the only way to defeat the enemy is to stick together, which is why the Rethugs hand us our ass so often!

(BMUS...sorry to unleash on my response to you!)

I understand completely.

Much of my own response was driven by the fact that I live in a state where many of the residents would gladly bring back lynchings if they could.

I have had to listen to them for over two weeks and it's worn me down.

Today will be horrible but at least they'll move on to the next freeper cause du jour.

I know you understand me (which explains why I missed you so much).

I live in a state, where my partner just told me that his co-worker hated their recent trip to NC because "there were too many spooks!" :wtf: I am sorry, what century is this?! So, I am sending him to work with a picture of our niece (mine by friendship, she calls us both "uncle" or "the boys" LOL) to set on his desk! Because, he (my baby) wants that racist prick to know that he has a "Black" family member (I use quotes, because the color doesn't fucking matter to us)! My baby also knows that the first nasty comment about my niece (I was there when she was born), he will tell me and I will take action against the racist prick! Unlike my sweetie...I am a fucking raging bitch, when provoked (thus my ethical issues about the DP). See, my baby, is a nice man. He is understanding and forgiving...I am too, unless he or my family is attacked. I know it is a 'flaw' on my part, but it is one I can live with for now.

So, I hope your day is not too bad. Don't despair. They are many of us who are with you, even if only in spirit (if you believe in such a thing...LOL). I am going to be hypocritical...don't let their hate feed you. Rise above it! BUT....if you have to kick ass along the way....well, some of us will understand! :)

As long as I know you're there, with all of my DU family, it will be easier.

I will picture you -pardon the terrible pc faux pas here, "bitch slapping" the redneck freepers while I nod my head and smile.
:hug:

I can bitch-slap with the best of them...and I don't even have to be physically there. I understand your trepidation about "bitch," but it is not always a bad thing! (It is only bad to men!) What makes us "man "bitches"" so good...as that others don't see us coming! Women, sadly, lose the element of surprise..."we" don't!! :evilgrin:

To make you smile more..I don't care if they are "redneck" or whatever...a bigot is a bigot and I slap them all! Actually, I use a "karmic spell" that does it for me. I do have to keep my hands pristine (LOL)!

you were for this.

I was not. If you'd been reading these posts!

There is no hate there. Rita Cosby isn't into that. She's acting much more in the mold of a nervous, chatty, teenage girl looking at a picture of a naked man for the first time. Watching Stanley Williams die, even a relatively pain-free death, will be a cruise missile of conscience that evades her radar and leaves her wondering WTF happened for a long, long time.

If you've ever seen a person die, either as a bystander, or as someone who was with them at the end of life, you'll know that it changes you profoundly. Depending on the person, it can be a "good" change, or a creepy one. Or both. And if you haven't, don't wish for it. Make your wish that no one ever die again, ever. It's just as absurd a wish, but at least it pulls in the direction of life.

I'll reserve my judgement on Rita Cosby until the profundity of the event has sunk in to her too-often-shallow soul. All we know about her now is that she is strangely excited by death and destruction. But she interviewed Tookie a few weeks ago, and he's no longer just a news item, he's a person.

So, I'll wait to see how Rita deals with it. I don't expect much, but with something like an execution, you never can tell. And it's most appropriate that people like Rita Cosby witness executions, because the giggling ghouls are often the ones who need to confront the reality face-to-face. Perhaps, then, we DO need some pay-per-view executions. To most people, execution is just an abstraction, not a real human being being killed, even for the suppoosedly noblest of reasons. There is too much remote-control killing in our society now; how long before the remote-control philosophy overrides our very ability to feel?

--p!

In my lifetime, there are three instances where I could watch a person executed....two I will not talk about, but the third is if anyone ever harmed my spouse, immediate family or especially my children.

Does this make me evil? Unsympathetic? Uncaring? Or with hate?

but living as a human is all about the challenges to rise above our baser instincts.

and a guy who was appointed to be a witness at that hanging has spent the last 40 years campaigning against the death penalty. He says it is an experience he wouldn't wish on his worst enemy.

The man who died killed four people. He put a shotgun to a young man's back, dragged him into a back room and shot him twice.

Later, he killed a whole family. He shot a man and his wife and blew their daughter's head apart.

He did this for about $200.

Despite review upon review of the case over 26 years confirming his guilt, he never, ever accepted responsibility for any of this. This suggests me to believe that this whole clemency deal was just step one into finding just one judge or seven jurors dumb enough to kick off Tookie's comeback tour to South LA.

He also bore heavy responsibility for starting a criminal organization that has killed hundreds, if not thousands, of people; and caused misery and death for thousands more through robbery, drugs and violence.

Despite the ballyhoos given to his books and negotiations, which might very well have a ploy to get off, he never, ever repudiated his gang affiliation. And he never, ever assisted the authorities in working against the Crips.

I'm sorry, but the world is a better place without him.

I'm questiong the ghoulish voyeurism that would make people want to watch such a thing.

for one. Second, as for ghoulish voyeurism, ever turn your head to look at an accident on the road? Ever watch an autopsy show, or something else graphic on TV? I deliberately watched the video of Nick Berg. One of the most horrible things I've ever seen, but I watched it.

There's a difference between watching something that you can't stop (assuming that you didn't agree with it) and participating in it.

about a year and a half ago. It haunted me. I made myself do it, because I wanted to know what we are getting ourselves into, by fomenting radical Islamic Fundies. It was harsh. And, that was a tape of it. To actually watch someone die live and in person. I don't know how that would effect me. It wouldn't be good, I know that. I really don't fully understand what good comes of an execution. It's not a deterrent, it doesn't bring anybody back. Sometimes innocent people get executed too. I have no real sympathy for Tookie, other than as a human being. He probably deserved everything he got, but that doesn't necessarily make it right. I am amazed at the glee some people have in a person's death. The coldness of emotion. It makes me feel uneasy about it all.

can't be much of a stretch to find other violence entertaining

isn't it?

yes, I think so

to enjoy killing animals.

Nobody in my family killed animals for fun.

I cannot conceive of why that is pleasurable to someone.

How depraved are you? Are you cheering the boys that die in Iraq too?

circumstances under which they watch others die. I'm sure there's a curiousity involved. The mystery of death is pretty compelling stuff.

I would probably yell, "This is sick! Why are we doing this?"

Tammy