what i learned from tookie and christianity...

no matter what bad things i do, it's all ok if i am a nice guy at the end.

True or false?

:popcorn:

if you're going to ask that kind of question, either with sarcasm, or just being serious, (not being snotty myself). no, being a nice guy doesn't get you to be with the creator in my belief as a Christian. if that were the case, most people would go to heaven to stay with Christ. there aren't a lot of mean spirited people out there. salvation through Christ, admitting you are a sinner needing Christ's love & forgiveness, is the way to be in good with God.

now, you, or others may have a different view about how to get to heaven, or that there's no heaven at all. but you said Christianity so I answered. I answered with complete sincerity, if you appreciate the answer, great. If it's just flame bait, then I won't respond.


Take care, and Happy Holidays (and Merry Christmas if you're a Christian)
themartyred

1) every born again tells me "all i need to do is accept jesus into my heart as my lord and saviour" - everything before that is post script and i will be OK

2) Tookie did some good things after he got caught - he should be OK

no consequences - so long as you are "good" - all seems very santa clausish to me

As is forgiveness.

All this is no longer part of RW Christianity now, but it is part of his philosophy.

that's great! forgiveness. do they know what that is???????????????????????

I do consider Jesus to have been a great philosopher.

I don't understand your response. Could you explain "ha"?

i can believe in the religion they built around his teachings - but he seemed like the last person using the brand name who had his head on his shoulders.

I feel the republicans talk about "god god god" but they don't know what forgiveness is, they're the first to flick the switch... hardly anyone I know is against the death penalty. I am against it, even though I know what horrible travesties these people have committed. I know if I had someone I loved taken away by a murderer it'd be hard to forgive, but we have to do that if we really love Christ, or if a different belief, a human with compassion.

and washed by the blood of Jesus (symbolically). Even the rabid persecutor of Christians, Saul of Tarsus, who called himself the chief of sinners, was saved by grace and repentance. Being a "nice guy" has nothing to do with salvation.

so long as you say you're down with JC - it's all good?

nice.

After hideous torture, the Inquisition would deliver the broken, shattered victim to the "civil arm," Holy Mother Church having satisfied herself that the said victim was now a repentant sinner bound for heaven, and pray that the authorities would have mercy upon him or her. Naturally, the civil arm usually burned the poor things, but hey, they went straight to heaven, didn't they? The current salivating expectation of an imminent "rapture" of the church is much the same thing. Our "Christian" brethren are just PANTING to be snatched away to a ringside seat to watch the rest of us undergo "tribulation" - could anything possibly be more charitable or compassionate?

but two things, If you commit Heinous Crimes after your purported salvation then its possible that you were never actually saved. Salvation is far more then a mental ascent. It is a changed heart. And its not that Christians; are required to walk in perfection (that is what Grace is for) Salvation is likely best measured by the the motivations of the heart soul and mind to be Christ like.

That means Tookie could well have been saved (I have no idea one way or the other), but it could have happened at any point up until the last. ut he is also justice. God is forgiving but He is also big on being just. The same rules apply to every one. Mother Theresa to Pol Pot. Does not matter if your life with Christ is 90 years or 90 seconds.

That is God's sense of Justice. Keys are Repentance and Love of God.

but two things, If you commit Heinous Crimes after your purported salvation then its possible that you were never actually saved. Salvation is far more then a mental ascent. It is a changed heart. And its not that Christians; are required to walk in perfection (that is what Grace is for) Salvation is likely best measured by the the motivations of the heart soul and mind to be Christ like.

That means Tookie could well have been saved (I have no idea one way or the other), but it could have happened at any point up until the last. ut he is also justice. God is forgiving but He is also big on being just. The same rules apply to every one. Mother Theresa to Pol Pot. Does not matter if your life with Christ is 90 years or 90 seconds.

That is God's sense of Justice. Keys are Repentance and Love of God.

And it is definitely not for me to say...just as it is not up to me to take your life in retribution for your past badness...regardless of whether or not you are a nice guy at the end. Can we move along now, please? There were many of us who didn't base our convictions on perceived "niceness" of the man...and it pisses me off that you,along with others, looked past valid arguments and latched onto that. :hi:

edited: for clarity

... then it sounds like they are premising their arguments on what a "good guy he is"

if one wants to say no human being should be executed, i can support that- though i may disagree; when one says, oh, he's a good dude now, i can't respect that logic.

should be put to death.

Laws are instituted to protect society. And society can be protected as well by locking certain people away as by killing them. Society cannot fully "avenge" victims of crime. Too bad you can't torture those whom you think deserve it--but they can only die once. (Of course, torture might really get you off.) Friends & families of victims might well feel the urge to kill--if not the killers, their associates. ("ALL GANG MEMBERS SHOULD DIE!") That's called "Gang Warfare."

Finally, even those who will end their days in prison have the things Christians call "souls." They might still be saved & deemed worthy by God. They will be rewarded after death, as others will receive their fitting punishment.

But so many who claim to believe in Him think they know better than He does.

(I'm not a Christian but know some good ones. And some bad ones.)

I'm not sure what you mean by "ok"--if you mean ok with society, or certain elements of society--well, that depends on the society. If one is practicing certain forms of religion, then forgiveness is paramount, no matter who did it or what they did. The forgiveness is not only for the person who did wrong, but also for you-for the anger and resentment you harbor only eats away at your soul.

Here's an example: a fellow I know had a sister who was very dear to him. During World War II, when they were both young, she worked for the Resistance and was picked up by the Nazis. They tortured her, shot her in the head, and then burned her while she was still alive. He was never able to recover his sister's body. He spent the rest of his life actively working on forgiving those who had done this to her; he told me that after a number of years, he was able to forgive the guards, who he figured were sociopaths. But he was still working on forgiving the woman who betrayed her to the Nazis for a few hundred francs. He said he had to do this for his own sake; if he lived with thoughts of hatred and revenge, he would have died a little inside. A few years ago, he was invited to the camp where his sister had died, and conducted an orchestra in Mozart's Requiem. It was an overcast day, but during the course of the piece, the sun came out. When he passed away last year, I believe he was at peace too--I don't know if he was ever able to totally forgive, but the fact that he tried kept his soul clear - for all we can ever do is try.

Just wow. Thanks for sharing that. What a difficult time he must have had, keeping hate from eating himself up inside. Thanks for sharing.

redemption or even a compassionate appreciation for human weaknesses. If you're that hard on others, I feel sorry for how hard you must be on yourself.

... it really matters to me.

:eyes:

the Prodigal Son is all about? The good son never strayed, the bad soon came back broke and homeless. But his father rejoiced because "he who was lost to me is found."

So I think you have to go past "nice guy" but in my personal belief system, Tookie Williams at least put some checkmarks in the correct box with his work. He did not, evidently, take it all the way and ask forgiveness of the people he wronged. I don't know whether he was "right with God" as they say, either. I haven't read that much about it.

But it is never too late to turn around. Yes, you can say you learned that from Tookie and Christianity. Of course you might still be executed in the end.

... can deal with the soul.