DU this poll re: student being suspended for speaking Spanish at school

http://www.nbc10.com/education/5523743/detail.html

Current results:

Should Principal Jennifer Watts be fired for suspending Zach Rubio after a teacher heard him say "no problema" in a school hallway?
Choice Votes Percentage of 5263 Votes
Yes, she should be fired. 1650 31%
No, she should be punished, but not fired. 2753 52%
No, she was right to suspend the boy for speaking Spanish. 860 16%

It might not be very liberal of me, but I recommend immediate sterilization for the 860 people who voted in favor of the suspension. That kind of stupidity simply shouldn't be passed on. :)

They are often poor teachers who fail upward by taking a couple of classes and applying for a job that good teachers don't want.

I've known administrators here and there who were more concerned with advancing their careers than the education of children.

I've made it a practice, in my 23-year career in public ed, to always look for something about an admin I can like or respect, to find some common meeting ground so that we can work productively together. That's worked pretty well for me.

I've had 2 admins that were truly superb, putting the welfare of students, families, and staff at the top of the priority list when setting any policy or making any decision. The rest were all in the "what can I find that is good?" category.

I had one admin that was such a disaster that, while I liked him personally, I didn't learn to appreciate him until he was long gone, replaced by a dictator. Chaos and disorganization, along with self-determination, is much preferred to dicatorship, in hindsight.

I had another that I referred to as the "sensitive neanderthal." This moderate republican man was highly intelligent, creative, and truly caring. He kept trying to make the stern, top-down, micro-manager, comply or die style of leading work. It kept failing. He was genuinely bewildered. He slowly began to shift, delegating more and dictating less. By the time we were all humming happily along, with compromise on both sides, he was on the district's "bad-boy" list for thinking that his way/our way might be better than THEIR top-down, micro-managed dysfunctional dictatorship.

I've worked for principals that never spent any time in a classroom; they were PE teachers. I've worked for principals that distastefully spent their required 5 years in a classroom before they could move "up." And I've known some principals who were summarily removed from their positions and put in charge of departments at the district office because they violated teacher/student rights and couldn't be trusted not to cost the district lawsuits, or because they created such animosity that their sites couldn't function smoothly.

With all of that, there are still some great admins out there. They are the ones who command love and loyalty from staff, students, and parents alike; the ones we're willing to "go extra miles" for. I'm lucky to work for one right now; there are a couple who post here on DU, as well!

Ay Carumba!

There sure as heck was a problema, as he now knows all too well.

I went to NYC public schools and we had a lot of Puerto Rican students. Spanish was routinely heard many times EVERY day.

took a temp job one summer to earn a little extra money. She was doing clerical work at a paper company somewhere in San Antonio. One day she came home and told how she gave some people in the break room a lecture that it was very rude of them to speak to each other in Spanish when there were people in the break room who did not understand Spanish. I asked her, "Are you crazy?" I'm sure she thought they were talking about her. It was always about her. I wish I could say that the temp company fired her, but I think she worked there most of the summer. They probably didn't miss her too much after she left.

in other languages.

It damn well IS rude to be speaking in spanish when someone there does not understand the language. for all she knew, they could be making jokes and rude comments about her....or maybe even plotting against her!

I damn well didn't appreciate that crap when I lived in Austin. so I picked up just enough spanish so that I could often decipher what was being said.

And you know what?? I turned out correct...more than once, these idiots WERE making jokes about me, and rude comments about me...until the day I looked at a group of them...looked them square in the eye and said..."This GRINGA understands your LINGA!! Meta su brazos en colad, putos!" Well, you coulda heard a pin drop, and the bullshit stopped after that.

And I know that my grammar in Spanish was not quite correct...but it was enough to get the message across!

ok...let me break it down.

"Putos" has no real Enlish translation, whatsoever. A "puta" in spanish is roughly equivalent to calling a girl a slut or a whore. "Puto" is the male version of same, but there isn't really an English word for it...but it is a major insult to hurl the word "puto" at a Spanish-speaking male.

And I did it because they were referring to me as "GRINGA." Gringa is their ethnic slur for white people...gringa being a female white person, gringo being a male white person...and it is not meant kindly.

As to the rest..."Meta su brazos en colad" roughly translates as inviting them to perform an anatomical impossibility. And I'll leave it there.

will you be speaking only Spanish or it will be more comfortable to speak English with your friends or family ...and I can tell you that no Mexican will said shit to you.

I would NOT expect them to start speaking English, I would NOT expect them to start putting up signs in english for me, and I would NOT expect them to start printing ballots in English for me.

All's I'm saying is I will be DAMNED if I am going to end up a language minority in my own goddamn country.

If that makes me a bad liberal, then so be it.

and personally, i can't wait.

the latino/a community is growing rapidly in this country, they are fast becoming the majority in California (i'm happy to say) so you had better start brushing up on your spanish pretty soon, because i suspect Texas will be following on the heels of California.

and I expect we will have a latino governor in the next election, unless diebold flips it for aahhhnuld, Angelides will be our next governor.
(i hope)

and by the way, it's the rampant xenophobia that's at the root of the so called "border security" issue and it's disgusting to me.

one other point, Gringa/o is not an ethnic slur. It's slang for whitie, but not a slur. and if you really think it is, well you can sit with it as long as it takes for you to get what racism is all about and why you should embrace the notion that spanish language is just as important to know and understand in parts of this country, like California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas - since, after all - these territories belonged to Mexico before we stole it from them.

the "gringos/as" to leave the room before plotting against them. BWWWWAAAHAAAHAAAHAA! :evilgrin:

And it is used for Americans only, not "white people" in general. Germans for example, are not called "gringos" in Latin America.

"Meta su brazos en colad, putos!" :evilgrin:

Ciertamente no puedo... ¿qué putas será "colad"? :evilgrin:

:evilgrin:

Independent of race or origin.

Here in Costa Rica a gringo is a United States citizen... in fact, it is pretty common to hear things like "well, he's not a gringo, he's Canadian", and similar stuff.

I remember that

If so, have plans to do so again? :woohoo:

(OT: Slap me silly. There's one last VoIP test I need to make and I'm putting it off. Gah.)

I would *love* to do it again but, you know, $$ and all that

(*slap slap* feel free to pick up our convo again when you're done)

of Americans, we would all certainly speak English to each other anywhere we went. I don't see what the big deal is for people who are on their break or lunch to speak to each other in the language they are most comfortable in. When they are on the clock, yes, it is the employer's business to ensure that the employees can communicate in whatever language the employer specifies, but off the clock?

I suspect the only thing your confrontation accomplished is that they no longer talked about you...while you were in the room with them.

We tried to use the native language as much as possible, but all I know how to do is ask for another beer, and if somebody's daughter is 18. My wife actually managed to correctly order me a plain hamburger.

:toast:

See, I thought I was asking for a second one, after already consuming a first one. Guess I'd better stick to England!

although I advocate learning how to speak english as a second language. (It is a benefit to learn the language most widely used in the country you live in, trust me I work in real estate, what some of the people who don't know english put their sigs on sometimes is a trip)

I am fluent in Spanish as a second language and who's fucking business is it if I'm speaking to my mother in Spanish. if I address you then I'm speaking to you, in the meantime mind your own business if we are NOT talking to you in the grocery store line.

I don't freak out when someone is speaking another language in front of me.
Most Asians always speak in their native language the majority of the time to themselves, why isn't anyone freaking out on that?

if you are not talking to me. You might be talking ABOUT me.

...that believes in "free" speech, now can we?

:sarcasm: liberally applied.

If you really think you're special enough to be talked about in another language I'm pretty sure you'll hear whispers in English too if you listen REAL hard

the room. Before I start plotting out loud how I'm getting their daughters pregnant.

But that's just me.

;)




Joking. Duh. Just in case.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. "Puto" is the Mexican-spanish way of saying faggot. I think the silence that usually follows you saying that was because they had no clue what the fuck you had just said.

I do blame her for her stupid paranoia. It is just as rude to get in other people's conversations. For all she knew they could have been talking about the weather.

Also, just a hint, why don't you defend your points on the thread, don't run away, marks of a coward that is.(Yoda mode) :)

I had an appointment. I'm back now. So go ahead and continue to sling shit at me. I don't give a fuck. I have a right to my opinion, and I am NOT going to march in 100 percent lockstep with you or anyone else, and I have a right to demand to not become a language minority in my own goddamned country.

If that makes me a bad liberal, well, too fucking bad.

feel free to volunteer for -your- personal microphone anytime so we can -all- be sure -you- are not plotting against -us-.

Let us know when you're hooked up, won't you?

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Unless in school near paranoid teachers insecure about the dominance of English in society.

Teachers and administrators strictly forbade use of Native American languages and observance of traditional religion. The effect of this dislocation, added to earlier generations’ loss of population from disease and loss of resources and cultural autonomy under the Indian Agency system, was to make the entry of Native American culture into the twentieth century a difficult and painful process.

The kids in this picture were punished for speaking any language except English, and were not allowed to wear any traditional dress. Like most Native American kids growing up between the 1880s and 1920s, they were at a boarding school where they were forced into isolation from their families to learn "American" values and break ties with traditional life. Their parents were threatened with jail if their children did not attend.

<snip>

http://www.changeofworlds.org/object.cfm?object=9

People like this give liberals a bad name.

Are you done executing all gang members yet?

and better yet, were they right?

I shared a lunch table with some Mexican workers and found out that I'm going to have trouble learning Spanish.They tried to teach me some words, but my ear has the same problem hearing some Spanish sounds that Japanese ears have hearing the difference between L and R . Plus, I want to answer Spanish with my high school French.

"hota" and "hombre."

Hota is lesbian. Hombre is man.
I'm a transsexual.

I didn't fucking appreciate their goddamn jokes.

and the cowards didn't have the guts to say it to my face in a language I understood...they saw fit to makes jokes behind my back, right in my face.

I thought you were being paranoid. I guess it just goes to show that even the downtrodden can be jerks some times.

And I should not have to put up with that sort of thing.
They wanna talk about me, they can do it...TO MY FACE...and in a language I understand. If they don't, they are cowards.

I see the sensitivity here and they WERE talking about you - good that you understood so you could nail their rudeness. Still it could have just as easily been a group of ignorant rednecks whispering, don't you think? The bottom line is that it was a private conversation.

I do think it is rude if some in a group are multilingual and continue to speak in a language someone in the group does not understand, but if it is a private conversation, that is just a disadvantage we all face.

You have brought up an issue I never thought of in this context before - usually the pro English-only in the workplace/school etc has to do with "plotting" things - but yeah I can see an issue of personal harassment. Hmmm need to think about this. I guess my first though goes back to what if they were saying the same shit in English...only saying it where you couldn't overhear them....what then? I mean workplace gossip is pretty hard to regulate...

As for the US printing official things in other languages, I have NO problem with it, and I REALLY appreciate it when other countries make the attempt to accommodate us foreign-language deficient travelers.

Other countries DON'T make any attemot, whatsoever, to accomodate us!!

I was in Thailand for three weeks, and in a hospital...(granted I chose to do this, the surgivcal procedure was far cheaper there than in the U.S.) But it was a very scary experience for me...being unable to communicate, half the time, with the medical staff...so that I could get proper aftercare!

but even the little things - like occasionally an airport sign or such. I am just saying I have seen a bit, not much and I am VERY gratefull when I do.

It is something I think is a good thing that we do. And I am probably wrong - in that it may backfire by actually prolonging or preventing non-english speakers from achieving the advantages gained by learning the language quickly!

so you shouldn't do it for other people?

It's just that I can't imagine a native English speaker writing "they saw fit to makes jokes behind my back, right in my face", other than for satirical effect. Unless their head was on backwards, of course.

Surely the devil speaks all languages fluently?

...well if that is the concern, the school should observe the rule of silence when not specifically talking to a teacher. Who knows which whispers (in any language) might be a plot. Kids talking out of ear-shot of a teacher, suspend them all.

Hook every kid with a mike and have personnel monitor what is said to ensure it's all legitimate school business. There is no room for a right of private discussion in schools. teachers need to know that no one is secretly plotting against them while on school property (off property is another matter, then kids can plot against teachers and curse them as much as they want).

What a glorious education in freedom, liberty and democracy in action

:sarcasm: liberally applied.

you lived in Texas and you have an issue with people speaking spanish?

are you a republican?

amor y lucha

I routinely speak Spanish and English and we are never using Spanish to hide our conversations or talk about someone. Go peddle your xenophobic, paranoid crap somewhere else! I can't believe I have to read tripe like this on a progressive site. And you're right, your Spanish grammar and spelling is horrid!

and I don't even speak Spanish. What a bunch of dimwits.

American Indian children strictly forbidden from speaking their own language in boarding schools. There is one difference at least, this child wasn't first kidnapped.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - great minds think alike!

:hi:

i can't believe a self identified liberal has an "issue" with bilingualism, no matter how poorly spoken or spelled, especially from texas!

aye carumba!

I cast my vote. I've worked with some dumbass administrators in my career, and this takes the cake. Maybe someone should punish her severely if she ever uses English words that are of "foreign" origin, which is most of the English language... :P

in FRANCE.

He is definitely the king of these retards.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Should Principal Jennifer Watts be fired for suspending Zach Rubio after a teacher heard him say "no problema" in a school hallway?
Choice Votes Percentage of 7567 Votes
Yes, she should be fired. 2394 32%
No, she should be punished, but not fired. 3964 52%
No, she was right to suspend the boy for speaking Spanish. 1209 16%

FOOORRR SHAAAAAAMMME!!

Worldwide, it is becoming the language everyone uses, sort of.

True story.

My son was on a work site in India and found himself translating between a Chinese worker and an Indian. The punch line? All three of them were speaking English! It's just that he was the only one who could understan everyone's accents!

that's the whole point!

I'm terrified that, sometime in my old age, I will be infirm...in need of medical help...and unable to communicate my needs to anyone who understands them, and thus, I will not get the help I need, and will die...all because we didn't defend the English language as dominant, when we still could.

It's a legitimate fear.

trust me on this.

This is straight up the dumbest shit I've ever heard. Higher education (you know the kind that those healthcare types get) is has and will be in English. Unless you live to be 800 you have nothing to be paranoid about. Is still think you're fucking with us this has got to be a joke.

So you're worried about somebody showing up here in the "land of the free" and bringing their native tongue with them? There were Mexicans in the southwest a hundred years befor the English speaking Europeans were here, and through theft and military killing became "dominant".
I find enclaves of ethnicity delightful and necessary in the U.S., for our own humility and mental health. Fascists hate anything that hinders their corporate dominance of the government and their access to fiscal aristocracy. imo

there are a couple billion people who can at least make their way through a few sentences. About a billion who can carry on a conversation without a problem. English won't be disappearing. No matter how many people speak Spanish, med schools will still be in English, ditto law schools. English won't be disappearing any time soon.

Awwww, going to die alone and misunderstood. Quite a little scenario you've manufactured there.

Better move to Kansas then.

whew! i didn't really believe you were that lame! :silly:

WE ALL SPEAK ENGLISH! and I know many of this people here are not in the US...don’t worry your English is not going anywhere is just getting stronger..

"No problema" is a reason to be suspended?
:wtf:

If I was a fellow student of that kid, I would start saying that phrase all the time. And as may phrases as I could in all sorts of languages. How utterly ridiculous. I took French and Spanish in junior high and high school (don't remember a dang thing either) and when we learned new phrases, we'd walk around the halls using the few words we knew to both practice and confuse other students.
:eyes:

Should I have been suspended for pig-latin? My friend and I used it constantly (we were quite fluent) so it would be more difficult for others to listen in. Ah, those were the days. LOL
:silly:

And she should apologize to the boy for suspension over something so frivolous.

It seems that that is what happened, and he should accept her apology and move on with his life. His lawsuit is as frivolous as her suspension. There was no real damage incurred other than bruised feelings. She needs to go hang out with some latin people for a while, get to know the culture and get the stick out of her ass.

Are there school rules against speaking spanish? I grew up on the Mexican border, so we never even noticed when people were speaking spanish. Do gringos in other parts of the US still freak out from hearing spanish? How pathetic.

Spanish words. There is a completely different phrase in Spanish for the English phrase "no problem". Glad to DU your poll. I hate it when my native tongue is made to look like a bunch of dirty words by teachers no less, who should know better.

Mermaid, I also think you would do just fine as an old lady with non-english speaking caregivers!!! You are much more courageous than you give yourself credit for by having this fear.

To the others she is probably much braver than any of you could imagine as well, living in this world of intolerance. And I can certainly see where the fear comes from. Yes training occurs in English, but I have had plenty of foriegn born medical personel who were difficult to understand, due to heavy accent. It's the same with outsourcing customer service calls to India - sometimes the person on the other end is VERY hard to understand - even though they are speaking English. This isn't about racism, its about communication.

For someone to leave the country for a medical procedure to a non-English speaking country without learning the language, and then start a xenophobic rant on how "those" people should come to the US speaking English is intellectually dishonest at best; racist at worst.

The rules are for thee, not for me--can't have it both ways.

If an individual experienced say, some trauma involved with being unable to communicate during a vulnerable, or possibly life-threatening medical situation, even though it was their choice to do that in a foriegn country, why would it be so unreasonable for them to carry that fear of being unable to communicate home? Maybe they learned something from the experience and did NOT want to repeat it.

I agree, I think Mermaid's fear is a bit irrational, but I still can understand where it might come from. I'm not agreeing 100% with her, I am just exercising some empathy and trying to see her point of view.

In order to change her mind, I might want to make that effort to understand, rather than ridicule her opinion. Perhaps through that understanding of where she is coming from, I might even change MY mind or perhaps a solution that is a win for everybody might happen. Just sayin'. Isn't that the way this liberal stuff is supposed to work?

and the staff couldn't decide if it was a he or a she.

and no one could understand her. But maybe it was changing her from a half fish to a whole person. I was of course "Just kidding", geez don't be a cussing at me.

...in private?

Nice of the thought-police to step in.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

with you.

1) the original point - the young man speaking Spanish at school - I agree he should not be punished in any way, admin should be reprimanded

2) the conversation at Mermaid's former place of work where she was being ridiculed in Spanish - this one was a bit more complex for me, but ultimatly people's private conversations are just that - private conversations. Still, I have sympathy for the situation - there have been other situations where workplaces have had English only rules for supposed safety reasons - I am not sure if it is legal or not.

3) the communication comment I made was in reference to Mermaid's fear of not being able to find English speaking medical care - go through all the threads to get the background then reread what I said.

that's why I ask questions. Especially when people have strong opinions - often there is an interesting personal story underneath. Being a typical wishy washy flip flopping liberal, I often can see both sides - or god forbid, MORE than two sides....hahahhaha :crazy:

...I should not have jumped to conclusions.

a DU login. :evilgrin:

:spank:

Love helping to take down disruptors. :)

I see the whole sub-thread was deleted where I made my eloquent pleas to work at solving the problem by volunteering for local literacy programs. Darn. Good riddance on the other stuff, though.

Too bad her opinions include punishing kids for speaking Spanish and executing anyone who ever joined a gang.

She should deal with her fears.

America.

She should seek another line of work, perhaps in retail sales.

Yo Soy Un Gringo Loco

in loonys and intolerants.

Nothing that comes out of there surprises me anymore. Mostly, you hear stuff like this from Texas or Florida (with their much larger populations). But Kansas seems to be gaining ground and passing Oklahoma and Indiana for oddball behavior.

No wonder we don't have enough bilingual adults on campuses to keep things running smoothly.

I guess I shouldn't have been trying to learn Spanish with my students in my classroom the last few years?