Just a question about the "Tookie" execution...

As a few of you know, I am against *ALL* executions, since it doesn't do a damn bit of good, and if just ONE person is executed for a crime he/she didn't commit, (yes, I know about that Texas case,) that means the state has murdered someone.

So here's the question for the "kill Tookie" crowd here:

Has his execution done ANY bit of good?
If so, tell me.

And all his victims, living or dead, are as much victims of the Crips as they are victims of him.

Tookie was a co-founder of that organization.

I disagree with Matthew Shepard's parents being lenient toward his son's killers (or whoever it was, it was a long time ago and that made nary a bleep of difference either...)

of a family member.

Having the guy who did it executed would have made it all worse, not better. There would have been two useless deaths instead of one.

I wanted him locked up so he could never do it again. He was, and he didn't.

I'm sure if you ask the family members a month from now, they'll say the execution didn't do a damned thing for them, but they'll blather about how they know he's gone and the evil died with him. Only it didn't, did it? The gang warfare he started when he was young and stupid is still going on.

I sincerely doubt he'd have lasted long in the general population. I feel pretty confident that one of the rival gang members would have shanked him, or worse. If anything, this execution just offered a premature and painless way out.

It changed nothing, though. The violence continues. Kids who might have been persuaded by his books against gangs now know the state is no different. All his victims are still dead.

the risk of getting details wrong in trial is too high to justify the certainty of the DP.
there seems to be a tendency or temptation for D.A.'s and the police to punish "criminals" for past crimes that they committed, with a current crime or the latest crime, if a frame up is air tight.
It may not be a frequent tactic on the part of the system, but I know that it has happened several times.

that. Gangs would have existed without Tookie. Gang violence would have existed without Tookie. LA Gangs have been existence since before WWII. They began with the zoot suiters which developed into the more modern Mexican gangs which were responded to by black gangs which continued to grow.

To pretend that Tookie invented the whole concept of gangs is ill-informed. He was merely one of thousands.

Here's a fairly accurate history of LA Gangs: http://www.nagia.org/Crips_and_Bloods.htm

the Crips and LaRaza, I agree.

99% of the members I knew in AZ 10 years ago had never heard of Tookie Williams.

However.... during a recent conversation with an old friend, Tookie was discussed. He wished that more bangers had heard of the good he's done since being in prison, and thought that putting him to death would probably send these kids the message that once you have done bad, might as well keep it up, cause even if you do get out (of the gang-lifestyle), no-one will believe you have changed. He was discouraged.

Wow, congratulations. Can an honorary membership in the KKK be far behind?

Also known as LaFamilia. Those guys protected me and my kids when we had to live in a very dangerous area. I was accepted into their homes for holidays and special events, and 10 years later we are still family. I was a hick white girl living in the inner city. They treated me more like family than my own family did (for dating a Mexican) And their Mamas taught me to cook tamallis, and Menudo, and Tripas. yum!

on edit: that comment is still pissing me off. How can you even compare the two?

This is what LaRaza means
http://www.nclr.org/
and this
http://www.elcentrodelaraza.com/aboutus/history.htm
and this
http://www.galeriaposada.org/

But you can get a regular membership in the KKK anytime you want. Unless you already have one.

Oh my. I'm feeling better now. ;)

He's the one that most Crips would credit with creating the Crips.

Oh, and before bloodlusters start clamoring for Washington to be executed, he died in 1979.

themselves?

Perhaps they believe we can't kill our way out of violence?

... in death penalty states than in states (and countries) without the death penalty? What about the 98% of murders in death penalty states where the convicted murderer isn't put to death? Is there an iota of factual, objective evidence to support this claim??


I think the crap about KILLING someone being "better for the victims' familes" is total hogwash.

so it must be better. :sarcasm:

... someone who makes the "victims' closure" claim about how ill-treated the victims must then be in Europe, non-death-penalty states, and about the 98% of murderers who don't get a death sentence.

There must be literally MILLIONS of pissed-off, emotionally crippled victims' families world-wide that scream with envy of the ones "satisfied" with the 1,000 or so revenge-killings. Where are the studies? Where are the statistics?

Appalling bullshit confabulation is what it is.

of CMW, who was given the dubious honor of the first drive-by shooting in Chandler AZ. A small time drug deal goes bad, one stupid kid shoots somebody, and all of the sudden we have this amazing rep, all the wanna-be's start claiming, and causing more trouble.

You should hear the stories they tell about the OG's who were apparently bad ass killers. I knew those guys, and not a single one was a killer.
One was stupid, and shot a bad dealer. He's still in Jail - where he belongs (sorry Richie, I hope you ain't reading this! I still love ya)

I went back a few years ago... CMW scrawled all over the place... yet none done by the original crew. They would laugh about it if it weren't so sad.

If the community response to his execution is peaceful, that would be progress. If it's peaceful and powerful--meaning organized peaceful actions, rather than *no response*, that would be more so.

But I was thinking last night, as I listened to Pacifica's live coverage of the demonstration outside San Quentin, that Tookie's execution is likely to make him into a hero. It could catalyze a bigger movement against the death penalty.

Those are the hopeful thoughts I have this morning. Mixed with a lot of sadness.

And for those of you who jump on anyone speaking in favor of Tookie's work against violence, yes, of course I am sad for those who have lost loved ones to violence, no matter who perpetrated that violence.

He took 4 innocent peoples lives and he should have been put to death years ago.

How does it make the world a better place?

what it is you condemned them for doing?

"Killing is wrong so therefore we will kill you in return."

Stupid, wasteful and illogical.

No, his execution will no doubt cause more problems than any possible "good" than can come from another killing.


DR