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Dear Howard Dean: Why Bother?

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kliljedahl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 01:22 PM
Original message
Dear Howard Dean: Why Bother?
Ernest Partridge, Co-Editor
The Crisis Papers
December 13, 2005


Dr. Howard Dean, Chair
Democratic National Committee

Dear Dr. Dean,

Every week I get dozens of solicitations from the Democratic National Committee, from the Democratic Senate and Congressional Campaign Committees, or from various Democratic candidates and office-holders, each of them asking for contributions. “You can help us achieve victory next November,” I am told.

If by “victory” is meant a majority vote cast at the polls, then the Democrats achieved “victory” in 2000, 2002 and 2004. And yet, the Republicans remain in control of the Congress and the White House.

Small wonder! Republicans build the voting machines, Republicans write the secret software, Republicans count and compile the totals. The Republican machines allow no auditing of the vote totals they report. So Republicans have the ability to “win” elections, regardless of the will of the voters. There is compelling evidence that they have done just that.

And so, if nothing is done to end the privatization of our elections and to introduce reliable verification, the Republicans will "win" again in November 2006 and then in 2008. Today, eleven months before the mid-term election, the outcome is fore-ordained – as certain as Soviet elections under Stalin, and Iraqi elections under Saddam. For, as Stalin said, "Those who cast the votes decide nothing, those who count the votes decide everything.”

In the United States today, the GOP counts most of the votes, and there are no means to verify up to 80% of those votes.

In view of this dreadful situation, when the Democrats ask me for a contribution I must reply: “What’s the point? It’s already been settled! What remains is an empty charade.”



Keith’s Barbeque Central
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. If the democrats win back either house of congress in 2006
or the presidency in 2008, then I think you'll owe them an apology.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. depends if they are corporate whores or not.
We get a lot of promises but not much action.

We need more than seat warmers.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Well then I will apologize but until then K & R!
Edited on Tue Dec-13-05 08:35 PM by lonestarnot
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kliljedahl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. No apologies from me.
As long as they're beholdin' to corporate money, & most are, then nothing will change.



Keith’s Barbeque Central
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ConservativeDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. Well, since you're not giving them any money yourself...
you've pretty much guaranteed that, haven't you?

Thank God the Nader end of the Democratic party is too stupid to even win a primary, or else we'd never win any elections.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. Is this thread about Electronic Voting Or Corporate Influence In Congress?
or are just trying to dump on Democrats?
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Exactly - we just need someone to say this
with the proof
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dxstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. It is indeed a dire and dreadful situation we are in...
Those DieBold machines might as well be Terminator robots...
Fuck!... I guess we must continue to hunker down and wait for the day Bush and Cheney are discovered raping small animals in the Oval Office...
And even then, the Reeps will jusst say, "EVERYBODY does it!"
(In fact, they've ALREADY made that claim, haven't they?)


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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. Wow, Partridge is always good but this is EXCELLENT
:thumbsup:

I used to be on many Dem mailing lists. Now the only ones I haven't un-subbed from are Conyers, Boxer, Kucinich, and Feingold. The others haven't been real straight players.
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Let 'em sweat until they recognize it's the vote-counting,
not the voters.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
8.  K & R that is EXCELLENT! n/t
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Kire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
10. Have you signed the HR 550 petition yet? (verified voting)
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kliljedahl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Have now, thanks for the link
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
12. That's what I'M talkin' about.
Rec'd.
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Clara T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. Issues over Icons
As long as we focus on political personalities issues remain obfuscated. That is, by the way, precisely the way the arrangement is supposed to be by those who do the arranging. It is up to the people to take matters into their own hands and stop relying on any "caped candidate" to swoop in in superhero style and steal the reins from the voracious corporate Giants. Dean is very average as most Vermonters will attest. He looks so great compared to the rest of the field because we are looking at a dismal political scene.

It is not an issue of agonizing over and debating about whom we should support, we see the issue as the need we have to find someone to support, and the tendency to reduce politics to personality and celebrity. Can we discuss that? What does "support" mean? Why do we need to support anyone? How is what one person does - say, Howard Dean - have so much presumed importance? Why are we so desperate to identify the teams, the players, the good guys and the bad guys?

My feeling is that there is a pervasive stance of passivity and observation among us toward politics. We watch, we comment, we choose our favorite players to cheer for, we compare stats, we track the wins and losses high-fiving or moping on cue depending on the outcome, we decide which team we are going to really get behind....

That all represents a fundamental misunderstanding as to the nature of politics, does it not? Isn't this addressing personal emotional needs more than addressing politics?

BTW Dean thinks the war in Iraq is "winnable" if only there were a "new plan". This assertion in and of itself shows a certain imperious nature and intellectual dishonesty. It is not a war it is an illegal invasion, a criminal act, it is a war crime. So is the "war crime" winnable? If "we" win who loses? Who exactly is "we"?
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. very thoughtful post. n/t
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Excellent post n/t
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. We have crawled to the top of Magic Mountain.
We are poised at the crest and going downhill shortly. Mark my words starting in January with all the investigations, indictments, and private lawsuits, cracks are everywhere in the dike and she's going to blow.

Hang on to your hair. We're going to be going at warp speed. There's good times a comin'.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. kick'n you again!
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
16. ask Tim Kaine
he rejected the silly idea that it's impossible for a dem to win when there's voting machines.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
18. excellent !! K/R
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farmboxer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
19. All that money spent, all that hard work, Al Gore won the election,
yet Republicans were allowed to illegally insert Bush into office!

Kerry won, but Republicans were again allowed to insert Bush back into office after losing the election! Yes, 2002 elections also!

Why collect all that money, do all that campaigning, all that hard work, to only "give" Republicans the elections! It is the Republican manufactured and programmed voting machines stupid!!!!!!!

Damned fixed elections need to go!!!!!! Why not fight fixed elections "before" the elections and why be so afraid to challenge the fixed elections?! Why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And to Hell with the corporate media!!!!!!!!
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CrackpotAmerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
21. Thank You!
Until the electoral conspiracy is fully exposed, I consider any solicitation a grift.


I love Dr. Dean, but I hate knowing that no (D)'s are willing to expose the theft of elections.

:nominated:
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. No senator is. There's the Holt Bill, but no senate co-sponsor
for this bill that adds the key ingrediant - random audits.
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CrackpotAmerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. The Tastiest Ingredient of All!
Yummy!

Thx..
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. May I ask how withholding money is going to "change" anything?
Democrats have legislation in the works that demands a paper ballot. Apparently the people who write emotional tirades suggesting we give Republicans more of a financial edge are unaware of that?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
25. This is why we can't win. We won't support the Democrats who try.
I asked someone to tell me how we won so many races in November if it is all screwed up completely?

No answer.

Democrats won't win because the very second the chairman gets silenced from the right he gets letters from the left saying Dear Howard Dean.

Those who want a third party are coming to DU to advocate withholding support from the DNC.

Don't say it is not about silencing Dean from the left, because it is. All the stuff here addressed to Dear Howard...

If he succeeds in rebuilding the DNC from the ground up there will be no need for a third party. Bottom line.

I usually get viciously attacked when I say something like this, even though most are aware I am right on this. Somebody has to say it, though, and I did.

I advise you to read some of the posts here today about Bev...then get back to me if you want Dean to pursue it even though he trusted her. Let me know, huh?



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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Interesting given the fact that Dean has raised more money than
Edited on Wed Dec-14-05 01:39 PM by mzmolly
the DNC previously, in spite of the lack of corporate influence. But - instead of the "purists" noting that, they find anything else to criticize. Further, they suggest we "withhold" donations to somehow punish Democrats again? :eyes:

Ignorant - beyond - belief.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Well, as you say, Dean has raised more money without
corporate influence. Do you think it's only centrists sending the money or could "a few" progressives be chipping in, too? I think we both know the answer to that. Look at who the activists are, the ones that live and breathe change. Dean would not be heading the DNC without a grassroots revolt. We'd have Rahm.

As far as funding specific candidates, some of us think they have to start EARNING it. Start voting the way we want them to, along our interests, so we feel represented. Take a stand.

I used to donate to a candidate or a PAC at least once a month. But when they keep funding the war, vote for bankruptcy "reform," and other things I don't agree with, and play politics with peoples' lives, why in my right mind would I support them? Why should I give the Senate or House PACs money when they turn around and give it to safe DINOs who are competing with my progressive Dems? That would be ignorant beyond belief!

We can go round and round about this but we're each going to do what makes sense to us. It's not stupid. It's called having conviction for something.

Centrists might think progressives are ignorant for following their convictions but as a progressive, I think centrists are being used.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. I think people who are contributing are those who want to defeat
Republicans - centrists, progressives, liberals, moderates - the label matters not.

Further, I am one of the "activists" who supported Dean all along, and most of those who did are satisfied with the job he's doing.

As far as funding specific candidates, some of us think they have to start EARNING it. Start voting the way we want them to, along our interests, so we feel represented. Take a stand.

For those paying attention it's happening. Democrats are EARNING it.

Regarding your statement addressed to "centrists," I'm a liberal and proud of it, but above all I'm a pragmatist and I understand that politics are about change, not just foaming at the mouth. In order to effect change one needs to have MONEY and anyone suggesting "progressives, centrists, liberals etc." with hold money from Democrats is a "fool."


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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
27. Wow great idea! Let's stop giving money to Democrats! Yeah, that'll
get us election reform! :sarcasm:



What an idiot. Let's harp on the GAO report when we are pressing for election reform, not when people are pissed off about Iraq.

Dean has said what he thinks about election fraud, he met with BBV on national television and addressed this issue. However Democrats have no choice but to fight to CHANGE the current system as we have no PROOF of fraud. That's what these machines do, they eliminate proof. Democrats are fighting for change, and with holding money isn't going to help our collective cause.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. It is giving larger corporate donors more power again.
I am glad I am not the only one who sees the dangers in pulling support.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. The counter productive mentality is SO maddening.
GRR! :(
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hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Talking past each other: dueling unspoken paradigms
It looks to me like all sides are talking past each other on this question of continuing support or withholding support while waiting for some overt effort to get valid elections. If I may suggest an analogy:

Imagine we're all on a bus together out in the middle of nowhere, and the bus has a flat tire.

One group, Paradigm 1, says we have this hand-operated tire pump, so let's all just pitch in and pump some, and then we'll be on our way.

A second group, Paradigm 2, says there's a sniper (Diebold et al) over there in the woods and they shot a 2-inch hole in the sidewall of the tire (broken, unverifiable elections). We could pump ten dirigibles full of air into that tire and it would still be flat (If Republican programmers secretly count the vote, they'll always win). I'm not contributing any more pumping effort (money, time) until someone seriously addresses the issues of the 2-inch hole and the sniper.

The Paradigm 1 group retort, there is no sniper and there is no hole in the sidewall. The tire is sound (our election process is not broken), it just lost air gradually or maybe someone let the air out (we lost fairly and legitimately). Let's all get pumping.

To me, both paradigms 1 and 2 are plausible and self-consistent, and reasonable people can hold either one.

Now a third group, Paradigm 3, say, yes, there is a sniper and a 2-inch hole in the sidewall, and time's a-wastin' so let's all get a-pumpin'. Nobody's addressing the issues of the hole or the sniper, but forget about the hole, forget about the sniper. We all know that the only way to get a tire inflated is by pumping, so let's all keep pumping.

To me, paradigm 3 is illogical, useless, impractical, and downright insane. But it's what a lot of people seem to be saying.

Okay, to be fair, there's a fourth paradigm that the bus and tire analogy doesn't fit well. Here is that one: The party and our elections are more complex than a flat tire. To be sure, we have to address the problems and we'll do that some day, but we also have to keep the party alive and healthy in the meantime. We know about the problems and we'll address them, or maybe we're secretly addressing them now.

This fourth paradigm is actually where I've been, but it's becoming more and more untenable. We're closer to the next election now than we are to the last one, still nobody but John Conyers and a few others have done or said anything about the major problems, and the rest of the party won't even give him the time of day. I like Howard Dean, I supported him for DNC chair, but hey, somebody needs to give us a sign that they know about the hole and the sniper and they intend to do something about them. Hoping they aren't there or will go away on their own isn't a strategy. I'm just not willing to put more time, effort, or money into pumping dirigibles of air into a tire with a gash in the sidewall, that the bus driver won't even admit is there.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
30. Great letter, but a different kind of case for action is needed.
Edited on Wed Dec-14-05 01:50 PM by pat_k
As important as this letter is (every demonstration of the public’s demand for action tips the balance), there is a fundamental problem with centering the case for action on specific evidence that this or that election was stolen. When we do this, we are buying into the illogical assumption that the burden is on us to prove the results invalid.

Any election conducted in a way that fails to instill public confidence in the results is an invalid measure of our consent.

It is important for every citizen lobbyist to consider a different approach. We can make a different sort of case for joining the fight for revolutionary change in the conduct of our elections. (i.e., Election revolt. Reform is too weak a term.)

Certainly, as Partridge asserts, "The evidence of voting fraud and election theft is no secret – it is out in the open for all to see who are willing to see." Unfortunately, willingness to see requires a receptive context; a context that has not yet been established. Even people like Howard Dean, who acknowledge problems, continue to employ all sorts of rationalizations to escape processing the evidence, facing the truth, and taking the radical action that the truth demands.

Keeping it simple is critical. Engaging in dialog is critical. Open letters and other one-way communications are important, but they have limited impact. Dialog allows us to elicit and challenge the many rationalizations people employ. Simple truths and moral principles go beyond specific evidence in a way the can effectively cut through the BS that blocks action.

Key Points that Challenge Rationalizations for Inaction

The following points have proven to be effective. Although the points build on each other, presentation as a numbered list is a bit arbitrary. Each point can stand alone as a challenge to a specific rationalization. Opportunities to touch on all the points (or to touch on them in a particular order) in a given dialog are rare, but they are interrelated (as is the system of rationalizations the points serve to dismantle).

(1) We the People have a right to have confidence in the results of our elections.

Our right to have confidence that we are being afforded free and fair elections for our government officials is a right that no other consideration can supersede. A free and fair election is one in which all citizens have been afforded equal access and opportunity to cast their vote and have that vote accurately counted.

We are the sovereigns here. We the People, through our representatives, have defined election laws to ensure elections that are free and fair and reflect our will. Any rationalization that justifies violation of this right must be challenged. The law is intended to serve our will, not thwart it. When elections are conducted in a manner that undermines confidence, and application of the law fails us, We the People must demand a political remedy; one that trumps all legalisms and cynical misuse of our courts.

(2) An election is a survey, not a contest.

An election is not a contest -- it is a survey -- an effort to measure an objective reality. An election may well have many of the trappings of a contest or competition, its purpose is quite different. That purpose is to poll the electorate and determine an accurate measure of their choice for a representative or magistrate. Like the census, it is intended to measure an objective reality. A contest is a more limited endeavor. And while campaigns are certainly treated by the media as sporting events, their purpose is simply communication to the only real stakeholders in the process, the voters whose intent an election is simply one method to gauge.

While it may be impracticable, there's no reason why we couldn't conduct our elections by hiring (bonded) agents to canvass the voters rather than requiring attendance at a "polling" place.

(3) Citizens are the stakeholders in an election, not the candidates.

Elections are intended to survey the will of the people, not the will of the candidates; therefore, it does not matter if a candidate has conceded.

(4) When the conduct of an election is called into question, the burden is on the state to prove the results were obtained using methods that ensured a free, fair, and accurate election.

Our right to have confidence puts the burden on the state to prove fair conduct and accurate results.

In our judicial system, presumption of innocence minimizes the chances of punishing the innocent.

In our electoral system, when the conduct of an election is called into question, the principle of consent demands that we minimize the chance of putting someone into office that has actually been rejected by the electorate. Minimizing that outcome requires a presumption of flawed methods and flawed results. This presumption puts the burden is on the state to restore confidence. Members of the electorate need only present evidence of practices that undermine public confidence. It is the responsibility of the state to produce evidence that puts those questions to rest.

This point directly challenges those who rationalize inaction with claims that an election was probably corrupt, but the corruption must be dismissed because it has not been proven in a court. When people get it – that morally the burden is on the state – the failure of the courts cannot serve as a reason for inaction. Instead, the failure of the courts to enforce our right to have confidence makes the fight for a political remedy more urgent (e.g., demands for enforcement of existing laws, new laws capable of enforcing our rights, or in the case of a flawed Presidential election, objection to tainted electors on January 6th).

Burden of Proof in an Election presents this point in a tabular format.

(5) Disparate treatment alone is sufficient to invalidate an election.

Every citizen and leader must answer the following question for themselves: "Are hours-long poll-tax-lines for poor, minority voters AND none for affluent, white voters a tolerable condition for you?"

No rationalization can justify different public and private answers to this question (e.g., "Well, it's intolerable to me personally, but elections have always had problems.") To tolerate disparate treatment in an election is to be complicit with the perpetrators of the condition.

Some people invoke a large margin of victory to dismiss the rights of the disenfranchised, claiming that insufficient numbers were disenfranchised to change the outcome. It is impossible to know how many voters have been discouraged from voting due to discriminatory practices. Extrapolating from past elections is useless when the conduct of those elections also failed to guarantee fairness.

Accepting the "margin of victory" rationalization means that a state with a history of untrustworthy elections that strongly favor one party is completely free to discriminate to any level with no risk of consequence. This is an absurd argument on its face.

(6) It's about voters, not votes.

When we put too much focus on the vote count (something many citizen lobbyists are currently doing), the rights of the voter to have equal access and opportunity to cast their votes tends to go by the wayside. The consent of the governed is derived from voters. Votes are simply a means of recording their will. The treatment of voters must remain front and center. The demand for a trustworthy vote count is part and parcel of the next point.

(7) Every voter must be able to make sense of how every aspect of an election is conducted. Secret Vote Counting is an intolerable violation of this right.

{Although akin to the point made in the letter that "Republicans write the secret software,” moving from the specific to the larger principle moves the game. It renders moot rationalizations for inaction connected to testing software, expert opinion on security, and so on.}

For the electorate to have confidence that they are being afforded free trustworthy elections, the processes for qualifying to vote, registering, casting votes, tabulating votes, reporting results and verifying results must be open, understandable, and accessible to every citizen. The guy down the street who dropped out of high school must be able to make sense of the how every aspect of our elections are conducted. (He may or may not bother to find out, but if he does, he needs to be able to make sense of it all.)

Many people, particularly those who are comfortable with technology, miss the key problem with using DREs. Inability to secure the systems against data loss or corruption isn't the problem, so arguments about the security or insecurity of a given DRE system are essentially irrelevant. The problem is secret vote counting.

Not many people on this planet have the expertise required to make sense of computer security (i.e., not many can independently evaluate the trustworthiness of DRE software). Consequently, the role of computers in our elections must be limited. DREs have no place at all.

People across the political spectrum reject secret vote counting as a matter of principle – no convincing needed. Rejecting DREs as secret vote counters is not much of a stretch.

(8) For any entity that relies on citizen support, putting our broken elections front and center is not just the right thing to do, it is the smart thing to do.

Whenever you communicate with organization leaders, office holders, office seekers, or their staff, always make the point that our broken elections activate people like no other issue.

Currently, we face a problem of circularity. Because our broken elections are rarely, if ever, included on lists of "important issues," the level of concern goes unmeasured. This leads to the mistaken belief that the public is not concerned. When the topic is raised, it becomes clear how mistaken this belief is. In nearly any group, any reference to our broken elections elicits a powerful response. The theft of the presidency in 2000 has been the driving force behind the renewed activism of the center/left.

(9) We are fighting for more than addressing the specific vulnerabilities that were exploited in 2000 and 2004 to corrupt our elections.

The battle for revolutionary change in our elections cannot be limited to the presenting evidence of fraud. The case we make in the lobbies of our State Houses and Congress must be grounded in simple truths and moral principles.

The fight to have confidence in our elections is one that goes to the heart of who we are as a people.

Fundamental principles are at stake. When we internalize these principles, we can effectively challenge rationalizations for inaction. When people engage in the fight in this way, they are asserting their rightful place as sovereigns. They recognize how powerful they are.

In Conclusion:

This is a fight that is supported by letter writing and other demonstrations of the public’s demand for action, but it must also be fought in face-to-face dialog over fences, around water coolers and dinner tables; face-to-face dialog with elected officials and their staff, opinion leaders, and the people that set the agenda in public interest organizations.

thedeanpeople.com
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hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. I'm surprised that no one has responded to this thoughtful post.
And a bit disappointed too. You make some good points. Particularly (my re-phrasing), we need not only valid elections but elections that people can see and feel are valid.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I'll just need to be repetitious -- did get a reply to a pointer posted
I did get a reply to a pointer I posted in another thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5595253&mesg_id=5598393 You might be interested in my response to that reply.

The General Discussion moves so fast. I think I often fail to post fast enough to be noticed. Awhile back skinner proposed some changes to address the volume issue. The post doesn't seem to be there anymore, but I hope they do implement the proposed changes -- or something similar.

I'll just have to keep repeating (as Howard Dean points out, we need to get better at being repetitious if we want to be heard).


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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
35. Kick
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
36. then why bother posting, why bother with politics, why bother living here?
Edited on Wed Dec-14-05 08:51 PM by LSK
I dont understand the point of your post? Sounds like you already gave up. Are you asking us why you should fight?

Personally, if nothing is changed after 2008, I would be of the same opinion. But I have hope for 2006 because of:

- Numerous States are passing laws declaring votes must have paper trails.

- A DNC under Howard Dean has NEVER been in a full National Election yet. He is organizing in 50 states. GIVE HIM A CHANCE.

- The elections in 2005

- Air America Radio is a voice out there that WE HAVE NEVER HAD.

- Bush's poll #s are in the toilet

- Iraq will not improve and public opinion will only get worse

- Fitzgerald and Plamegate

- Abramoff and NUMEROUS Republican investigates

- Diebold is not in every state and county

I would wait AT LEAST until after 2006 to give up. We have too much momentum to give up. You ignore a lot of stuff in our favor. We only need the House or the Senate
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