Can you imagine being an African American in the USA today ?

Between Tookie Williams, the hundreds of other state sponsored killings, the incarceration of 25% of your young men, and the stark and dreadful reality of New Orleans and what seems to be willful abandonment of the poorest and most helpless. Why isn't there rioting in the streets?

Then turn to our inner cities and look at the realities of homelessness,extreme poverty, under-employment in the black community. Look at the efforts to exclude those who have the least opportunity from positions of authority and prestige in this land. Look at how separated our neighborhoods are, 50 years after Rosa Parks took a stand and took a seat.

Black, white, brown, yellow...how can we live with ourselves knowing our complacency in it being this way?

I work every day to bring about a better future for some of our city's poorest and most needy. I work for economic justice and to create more opportunities for kids and adults. But I do it as a job and a choice. Lots of people could do what I do, but they've never been given the opportunity, never had a choice.

And despite my best efforts to make things better, I cannot honestly say that I can look my black brothers and sisters in the eye and ask them to trust, respect or even like me. I have done so little to undo the injustices and misappropriations of the privileged.

How do any of us look ourselves in the face in the morning, or look at our kids and say in all honesty, "I've done everything I can to undo the injustice of my era." because we have not. We are stunning failures, and I am ashamed of my generation, and of my race and of my country.

Africa is a continent.
(North) America is a continent.

Continents are physical locations.
A person can only be BORN in a SINGLE LOCATION.

A person cannot be a "Location Location".
A person cannot be a "Continent Continent".

Its like saying I'm a Central American European.
Well, which is it? It can only be one!

If they are born here, they are AMERICANS.
If they are born in Africa, they are AFRICANS.

If you want to refer to their race in a non-offensive way, just use the actual name of their actual race - Black.

/rant

Yeah.

race. In terms of DNA, I sure that I am more closely related to many darker skinned persons than I am to many persons who are as pigmentally challenged as myself. If we are going to continue to define people by their pigmentation, then the logical way to do it is to define them by their ancestors' geographic origins.

After all, the only ones who can call themselves Americans are descended from the native inhabitants. The rest of us are all immigrants.

came here from elsewhere. They were just the FIRST wave of immigrants.

if there's anything to Kennewick Man and his ilk.

Irish American, Italian American, who are you to tell my US relatives that they are not African-Americans. Can't speak for you but my actual race is African in exactly the same way that white people see themselves as European. I'm quite capable of defining mmyself so spare me the just use the actual name of their actual race. And to clarify I love being black but my ancestors are from Africa.

I am black and have no problem being called African American. I get so tired of people who think they have a right to tell another group how to identify itself. It's all about a wish to control. There was never any problem when others identified themselves as Polish, German, Irish,Italian, English etc. Most did not even add "American." I have no problem with people recognizing their ethnic heritage but some people get outraged when blacks call themselves African Americans. It's ridiculous.

I don't give a damn who has a problem or who expresses outrage when I refer to myself as African. I am quite capable of defining myself.

"Africa is a continent.
(North) America is a continent."

"African", when used in "African American", is an adjective. It modifies the noun "American".

Therefore, it's perfectly acceptable usage.

Just curious.

"can you imagine being bLack..."

was responding to the first response, not to the OP.

By the way, why do you capitalize all of your L's?

the terrorists win.

just a thing i do. the 'L' is for LiberaL. :hi:

Thanks for the info.

:hi:

I have no problem with being called African American and I'm only half black, lol. I've never seen people here get riled-up over being called Italian or Irish when they aren't from Italy or Ireland.

It is not offensive to be called African American!

At different times and in various surroundings we refer to ourselves as Black, even though I am not BLACK in color. I am TAN , but I am proud to be called BLACK and so are my friends.


If I am traveling in Europe or other countries and someone wants to know where I'm from, I might say," I'm American" and be proud of it. I am taking for granted that they can look at my TAN face and see that my ancestors may have been from Africa/Brazil/Mexico. No one has ever questioned me in that regard.

My great great great grandparents came from Africa and I am proud of it. So are all of my friends. We want to keep that connection to Africa and now we can have DNA tests to prove it.

On various legal documents, they may ask me to check which race I happen to be....some will say African American, some may say Black.


This same discussion came up when John Kerry was running for President.

Some specific minded people wanted to call his wife, "African" because she was born in Africa and therefore she must be "African American" because she lived in the United States.

They were really just trying to do a John McCain end run to suggest that she was not WHITE or a WHITE AMERICA or a WHITE AFRICAN but BLACK.

Since this is not 1864 but 2005, some of my friends say they are Mixed or Multi Racial or BLENDED.

Since many of my friends are married to WHITES or HISPANICS or ASIANS it really doesn't or shouldn't matter.

One day we will all just be rainbows and that would be fine with me.

We're all African-Americans (those of us born in this country) because we're all descendent from Africa, regardless where our forefathers came from.

Mankind evolved from Africa.

(I hope this doesn't spark an intelligent design debate).

The idea of human racial categories is a social construct used to help describe a person's heritage. Some people have a preferred term while others don't like any of these labels but there are no "actual" names for different types of people.

I have never refered to myself as an American and there is no way in hell I ever would refer to myself as such. All the "we are one" bullshit right after 9/11 was just that bullshit.

The Irish are divided as well. Have you ever been there?

That let you know?


:)

Plus six counties in Northern Ireland equal to the real Ireland. I would say you're Green.

of one group be concerned about how another community identifies itself. Makes no sense whatsoever unless certain people wish to control.

Because the group that does it most defined the social constructs in the 18th and 19th centuries and still believes they have to right to tell others what they are. Fugg that.

And not black people?
As a form of "Political Correctness" ?

Just checking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American

The term "African American" has been in common usage in the United States since the late 1980s, when greater numbers of African Americans began to adopt the term self-referentially. Malcolm X favored the term "African American" over "Negro" and used the term at an OAAU (Organization of Afro American Unity) meeting in the early 1960s, saying, "Twenty-two million African-Americans - that's what we are - Africans who are in America." Former NBA player/coach Lenny Wilkens is another who used the term as a teenager when filling a job application. Many Blacks began to abandon the term "Afro-American", which had become popular in the 1960s and '70s, for "African-American," because they desired an unabbreviated expression of their African heritage that could not be mistaken or derided as an allusion to the afro hairstyle. The term became increasingly popular, and by the 1980s, Jesse Jackson and others pressed for its adoption and acceptance. Users of the term argued that "African-American" was more in keeping with the nation's immigrant tradition of so-called "hyphenated Americans", who were known by terms like "Irish-American", or "Chinese-American", "Polish-American"), which link people with their, or their ancestors', geographic points of origin.

***
Since you are white, you really should STFU on this and show some respect. It's not up to the white community to decide what to call other groups of people.

The Black community and leaders can decide for THEMSELVES what they'd like themselves referred to and don't need whites to tell them what to do.

BTW, you are WRONG about where the term originally came from. It was NOT coined by white Americans for political correctness.

Imagine people trying not to offend each other. That's bad....

Ahem... extreme political correctness maybe? Since we are being technical(nit-picking)here, maybe we should differentiate between "Political Correctness" and "extreme Political Correctness".

Political correctness is not all that bad. Kinda keeps folks from offending each other.

The last time I checked, we can call ourselves whatever we want to...

I am an African American!

I am Black and I'm Proud!

:shrug: I figure folks can call ourselves whatever we want.

I'm not, but i'm asking to be called whatever i want. Today, i'm in the mood for fuscia!

Seriously, i think of myself solely as an american. But, amongst other americans, i readily describe myself as sicilian. Since they all know i'm born and bred american, they know what i mean. But, i don't even say that when i'm in italy. Over there, i'm american.

And to my wife, i'm an alien from another planet. Least, that's what she says.
The Professor

I've always like the sound of that --- maaauvvvve. It's far more laid-back than the sophisticated (elitist) "chartreuse." (Real Americans don't say "chartreuse.")
:silly:

Wives are always from other planets. Even when we arrive, they emigrate. :evilgrin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American

The term "African American" has been in common usage in the United States since the late 1980s, when greater numbers of African Americans began to adopt the term self-referentially. Malcolm X favored the term "African American" over "Negro" and used the term at an OAAU (Organization of Afro American Unity) meeting in the early 1960s, saying, "Twenty-two million African-Americans - that's what we are - Africans who are in America." Former NBA player/coach Lenny Wilkens is another who used the term as a teenager when filling a job application. Many Blacks began to abandon the term "Afro-American", which had become popular in the 1960s and '70s, for "African-American," because they desired an unabbreviated expression of their African heritage that could not be mistaken or derided as an allusion to the afro hairstyle.

snip

The term African American carries important political overtones. Previous terms used to identify Americans of African ancestry were conferred upon the group by whites and were included in the wording of various laws and legal decisions which became tools of white supremacy and oppression. There developed among blacks in America a growing desire for a term of their own choosing.

With the political consciousness that emerged from the political and social ferment of the late 1960s and early 1970s, Negro fell into disfavor among many African Americans. It had taken on a moderate, accommodationist, even Uncle Tomish, connotation. In this period, a growing number of blacks in the U.S., particularly African American youth, celebrated their blackness and their historical and cultural ties with the African continent. The Black Power movement defiantly embraced black as a group identifier—a term they themselves had repudiated only two decades earlier—a term often associated in English with things negative and undesirable, proclaiming, "Black is beautiful."

In this same period, others favored the term Afro-American; this particular term never gained much traction, but by the 1990s, the term African American had emerged as the leading choice of self-referential term. Just as other ethnic groups in American society historically had adopted names descriptive of their families' geographical points of origin (such as Italian-American, Irish-American, Polish-American), many blacks in America expressed a preference for a similar term. Because of the historical circumstances surrounding the capture, enslavement and systematic attempts to de-Africanize blacks in the U.S. under chattel slavery, most African Americans are unable to trace their ancestry to a specific African nation; hence, the entire continent serves as a geographic marker.

For many, African American is more than a name expressive of cultural and historical roots. The term expresses African pride and a sense of kinship and solidarity with others of the African diaspora—an embracing of the notion of pan-Africanism earlier enunciated by prominent African thinkers such as Marcus Garvey, W.E.B. Dubois and, later, George Padmore.

From the 'Program of the Organization of Afro-American Unity' written by Malcolm (El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz ), orginally intended to be delivered the day his home was fire-bombed, then delayed to be delivered a week later, the day he was assassinated ...

<snip>

Another term, "negro," is erroneously used and is degrading in the eyes of informed and self-respecting persons of African heritage. It denotes stereotyped and debased traits of character and classifies a whole segment of humanity on the basis of false information. From all intelligent viewpoints, it is a badge of slavery and helps to prolong and perpetuate oppression and discrimination.

Persons who recognize the emotional thrust and plain show of disrespect in the Southerner's use of "nigra" and the general use of "nigger" must also realize that all three words are essentially the same. The other two. "nigra" and "nigger" are blunt and undeceptive. The one representing respectability, "negro," is merely the same substance in a polished package and spelled with a capital letter. This refinement is added so that a degrading terminology can be legitimately used in general literature and "polite" conversation without embarrassment.

The term "negro" developed from a word in the Spanish language which is actually an adjective (describing word) meaning "black," that is, the color black. In plain English, if someone said or was called a "black" or a "dark," even a young child would very naturally question: "a black what?" or "a dark what?" because adjectives do not name, they describe. Please take note that in order to make use of this mechanism, a word was transferred from another language and deceptively changed in function from an adjective to a noun, which is a naming word. Its application in the nominative (naming) sense was intentionally used to portray persons in a position of objects or "things." It stamps the article as being "all alike and all the same." It denotes: a "darkie," a slave, a subhuman, an ex-slave, a "negro."

Afro-Americans must re-analyze and particularly question our own use of this term, keeping in mind all the facts. In light of the historical meanings and current implications, all intelligent and informed Afro-Americans and Africans continue to reject its use in the noun form as well as a proper adjective. Its usage shall continue to be considered as unenlightened and objectionable or deliberately offensive whether in speech or writing.

We accept the use of Afro-American, African, and Black man in reference to persons of African heritage. To every other part of mankind goes this measure of just respect. We do not desire more nor shall we accept less.

<snip>

http://www.malcolm-x.org/docs/gen_oaau.htm

And as Ossie Davis said in his eulogy for Malcolm on February 27, 1965 ...

<snip>

It is not in the memory of man that this beleaguered, unfortunate but nonetheless proud community has found a braver, more gallant young champion than this Afro-American who lies before us, unconquered still. I say the word again, as he would want me to: Afro-American. Afro-American Malcolm, who was a master, was most meticulous in his use of words. Nobody knew better than he the power words have over the minds of men. Malcolm had stopped being a 'Negro' years ago. It had become too small, too puny, too weak a word for him. Malcolm was bigger than that. Malcolm had become an Afro-American and he wanted so desperately that we, that all his people, would become Afro-Americans, too.

<snip>

http://www.africanamericans.com/MalcolmX.htm

It is merely with respect for our common humanity that I seek to use only those names by which people wish to be known. Thus, I take some instruction from Malcolm X's preferences as I understand them. It's not my place to apply labels of any other's invention ... except for the fascist freakazoids of the current regime, of course.
:silly:

Do you know how to correct a wikipedia entry? ;)

Actually, that does make sense because African American didn't become popular until the mid eighties, if I remember correctly.

Plenty of people say they're "Irish-American" or "Chinese-American," why shouldn't people say if they're "African-American"?

It may not be "correct" but terms like African American, Italian American, Asian American are quite common and inoffensive. We don't go around calling people caucasoid, mongoloid and negroid for good reason. "Black" is more likely to offend someone than African American is. Black is a color. Neither skin nor ethnicity is black.

Black people in America enjoy the highest standard of living for blacks in the entire world. Never before have so many moved into the middle class and upper middle class income brackets. They have more opportunities here than anywhere else in the world--and more civil and legal rights.

consider it used.

looking for food, looking for work, looking for the next fix.

I'm not denying that the strides you are describing are real, but they don't address the reality of state sponsored terror against a whole portion of the population.

and I saw a lot of White people down there.

You haven't got a clue how well many Afro-West Indians live. Income never defined quality of life.

how good we let them have it?

...are facts a friend of mine, who reads at blackcommentator.com, told me when I broached the issue with him. He encouraged me to think of black people in America as successful people who had a direct hand in ensuring their own good quality of life.

http://www.blackcommentator.com/146/146_cover_dixon_ten_worst.html

"While a fortunate few of us are doing very well indeed, and many more are hanging on as best we can, the conditions of life for a substantial chunk of black America are not substantially improving, and appear to be getting much worse."

:popcorn:

:popcorn:

Right?

And we learned this from a friend who pointed you to Black Commentator, did we?

I'll betcha I know where you and your "friend" usually hang out.

its like having your college education paid for by the uncle who molested you.

What I saw didn't come close to black people "enjoying" the highest standard of living. And contrary to your belief, many are living below poverty level.

blacks in the rest of the world try comparing them to their white neighbors in the US. You'll get a whole different picture then. We don't base the standard of living, opportunities, and rights of white poeople in this country on other nations so we shouldn't do it for other citizens.

Shades of Bill O'Riley, Rush Limbaugh and David Horowitz. I guess we should be so glad that our ancestors were brought here as Horowitz has suggested.

I agree with you.

You are in a place where you can make your voice count, you ARE being true to yourself. You post on DU, where we all hone our various talents and ideas, and you give a damn enough to have an opinion.

There is always going to be injustice - it's not that there is or isn't. It's how you handle it. We all want an easier life, all of us, and so we'll take buyoffs and shiny things and beads and whiskey and sell Manhattan to you for baubles. We let comfort drive us, rather than coming to grips with the fact that fighting for what you believe in IS inconvenient and IS uncomfortable.

It's not a failure - it's just human nature. We have be able to convince people to step out of their comfort zone for just a minute, for just one thing, and then maybe another, and another.

I posted something here before Thanksgiving about personally giving to the food banks. I think maybe six people replied. I suspect the rest were terribly terribly busy or had already given at the office. But six people went out and did some extra good in the world for sure (and probably would have anyway), and probably showed their kids or friends or someone else that going outside your comfort zone for a minute of extra bother has priceless rewards.

You can't convince everyone to stand up and fix every injustice in the world. All you can do is what YOU do and maybe five or six or sixty people might back you up, and they in turn will pass the lesson outward. Be of better cheer - it's not about black or white or gay or straight. It's about where your humanity is about humanity, where your personal truth is.

I'm not saying anything at the moment about fixing it all, or exhorting anyone to make it different at this very moment. Rather, I keep wondering what will be the Rodney King moment that will be the breaking point.

I guess I am still completely blown away by what happened in New Orleans.

and both the bad "good guys" and the good "good guys" let us down. It's not a "riot" issue. What would you do in Houston, run amock and burn down somebody else's house?

It's not a powder keg, or if it is the powder is wet. People want to get on with their lives, and many are. People are moving on and rebuilding, and after a while the bitterness and anger is muted for better or for worse. It's a fact that is unscrupulously taken advantage of by apologists and placaters who will give some people useless baubles and claim they did something about it.

However, expressing anger at the U.S. government by punishing the individuals in front of you is what terrorists do - I think we all understand that.

And to be sure there are some VERY angry people still out there and some very important advocates on these issues and what it means for the future and for all of our safety in crisis.

You can't lend or borrow guilt on this one.

When all the Whites that voted for the Democrat that didn't win again.

That is what being Black feels like.
It's a little like many Whites probably felt when John Kerry said he didn't win.

Left out, meaningless and mad - they felt "Black" like we do every day.

I can't believe the bulk of statements I've read here in the last few days (some supported with articles and opinions from the media--whoopee), assuming that there was going to be an outbreak of violence because of the execution.

That was horrible and hurtful to many here.

All black people don't think alike. Period.

All black people aren't mindlessly running around reacting violently to unfortunate news. The assumption that they are is frankly bigoted, and some on DU need to own up to that and stop hiding behind the fact that the media said some of these things.

While making such statements does demonstrate ignorance, it does't mean one is hateful. Merely uninformed, and they allow their lack of knowledge of something to rule their statements of this matter on the board. It would be better to admit one doesn't understand something than to just jump on the 'negativity bandwagon of assumptions.'

I don't know if I'm making any sense here--but even DU members who are progressive and Democratic need to be mindful of the fact that assuming the worst of people is a form of bigotry and it's not a progressive way to think.

Rant over...

I can't tell you how many times I have to run around telling people we don't think alike.

:hi: :hug:

I read a post that said that Black people would probably "get mad and just riot and ruin their own neighborhoods."

I laughed through my tears(because I am against the DP)because what they do not know is the demographics of Los Angeles now.

Areas that were once all Black now have Whites pouring into them to buy $600,000 + homes. I have many neighbors that are White.

So it won't just be about Black this time.

We are all in this rainbow boat together.

I hear you! Thanks for the kind words--it's been a rough week here, so nice to read supportive words! :hug:

They like riots. It sells newspapers. Pushes the ratings up. Wins them prizes.

It's why they were so gung ho about this goddamn war.

Newspapers sell better when South Central is on fire, dontcha know?

I didn't think there would be any rioting this time around. It's a different situation from Rodney King. Or at least, that's what it seems like to me.

I think you are right, they were. They suck... I should know better by now, but I don't expect to see that crap on DU.
Naive of me, I know...

Not really much to do with this thread, but I'm still going to plant myself here and confess.

If I am walking down the street and coming toward me I see a group of men, I'm much more apt to change sides of the street (thus avoiding conflict with the group) if the men are black. When I discovered this about myself, I was originally very appalled. I have done much soul-searching and am working to remedy this behavior/belief in myself.

that took a lot of courage on your parts. The ability to look within yourself and challenge what you see takes a willingness to accept it all--the good, the bad and the ugly so to speak. Good for you for being so honest and owning up to what you see.

You didn't have to share something so personal, and tough to look at with everyone here,...again very brave of you.

((((Cornfield)))) :grouphug:

In the wake of Katrina, how many liberals were buying the media line about "Oh my God, they're rioting!" "they're looting!!" "They're shooting at the helicopters!!!" Underlying message - "We can't possibly go there to try to save people's lives, it's not worth it!" So FEMA actually frickin stopped rescue missions based on unsubstantiated rumors that were later disproven. The police shot at people attempting to escape. The whole country sat there and watched people die. But why were people so willing, eager, to believe those rumors? I think a lot of unconcious racism came out in America during Katrina & that racism killed many people in New Orleans.

watching DU'ers that up to that point, I liked and respected as board members, resort to namecalling of those that were stated to be looters on tv. I saw a poster I've talked to many times on this board call these people 'mindless thugs' among other things.

I don't think I've said a word to this DU'er since.

When people show you who they are, the first time, believe them. Maya Angelou.

possibly BE African American?

Dude, I know you're trying to help here but did it ever occur to you that you might actually be talking about people present in the third person?

If you want an answer to your question, look at the question that you asked.

Hello?

:eyes:

Why do people assume that we're supposed to riot and tear up our own neighborhoods??

:shrug:

Of course I know that there's a wide wonerful range of everybody here at D.U. That's one of the things I appreciate about it.

And as for tearing up neighborhoods or rioting, I'm not assuming anybody "should" anything, and I don't believe I implied that. I suppose it's that I'm constantly struck by the strength and restraint and compassion in the black community here in Philadelphia that keeps us from having a real uprising. I believe it's thanks largely to the forebearance of the African American community, plus to a smaller degree the work that's been done to connect across class and race lines through a variety of Social Justice programs.

I live with a deep respect for the hard won wisdom that is so available in the black community in Philadelphia, but is so hidden away from most of my neighbors.

I guess I'm searching for words to express the marvel and grace I feel being welcomed, not scorned by a community that might be quite different. The difficulty in expressing that sense of grace, and the difficulty in people hearing it is itself, I believe, part of the baggage we all carry from the past and present history of racial separation.

Peace.

I didn't assume anything would happen after Tookie Williams was executed. I figured that life in South Central, as well as every other neighborhood in California and across the country, would go on as usual.

The only people who said anything about rioting was the media, and I was just annoyed by that completely, because it just seemed so RUDE to assume that people would riot! Who, with half an ounce of sense, tears up their own neighborhood? Isn't that like cutting off your nose to spite your face? I mean, you riot in your neighborhood, burn the joint down, and now you have no place to live? Gee, why would anyone do that? That's a moronic thing to assume that a particular group of people, ANY particular group of people, would do. And yet, that's all I heard for weeks on the radio around here, "possible rioting if Tookie is executed," "rioting in the streets of South Central Los Angeles if Tookie is executed," nothing positive, just, "riots, riots, riots!"

And frankly, I found it insulting. And I'm not black, nor do I live in South Central, I found it insulting on the level of assuming that people that live in certain neighborhoods don't have sense enough not to burn them down just because something has happened that needs to be protested. That's like assuming that everyone that lives in Riverside County is Republican, anti-choice, pro-death-penalty, and will elect whatever Republican candidate the Central Committee throws our way because we're too stupid to figure things out on our own. Same thing, IMHO, they're just not assuming people here will burn down their own houses.

I'm a white guy. But I don't feel any shame like described in the post, I don't believe in collective guilt.

I must say that African Americans have been through a lot with Katrina and George Bush this year. We really don't deserve all that unhappiness, nobody does.

On the bright side,I can only tell you that 99% of the time, it is a thrill to be an African American.

We are proud of our roots, our families, our achievements - against all odds.

We are thrilled for Rosa Parks and John Conyers and Martin Luther King because they, and many many others tell us that " We Are Somebody!"

We have a lot of soul, love to work hard and achieve.

I know that my ancestors would be mighty proud of me. My great great grandparents were slaves, their grandson, born into slavery, was a superb blacksmith, his grandson was a Surgeon and I have continued the family tradition, we all had to finish college with advanced degrees.

I know that it is my responsibility to give back to my people for all the blessings that I have received.

I'm saying all that to say that because of kind people like you, one day the World will be color blind.

Until then, "We Shall OverCome!"

:loveya:

I love what you have to say here, and it's such a great reminder-- like the old song says " for I'm not worthy, of all these blessings..." I know the ways my life has been blessed by kind people like you, and I know I'm not worthy of it, but there's a sweet Spirit that takes away the pain, and heals us of our brokeness.

Sometimes the world feels so tattered, that it's hard not to be overcome by it! Expereince tells me that it takes all od pulling together, working together, arguing laughing and sharing meals together to move forward past the long history and spearations. I've been so blessed by so many people, but in a minute, you can forget. Thanks for reminding me,it's me who needs to thank you, and I do!

Not meaning any disrespect to the other two, but John Conyers is the only one still with us.

Re >>We are thrilled for Rosa Parks and John Conyers and Martin Luther King because they, and many many others tell us that " We Are Somebody!"<<

I am constantly amazed at the integrity and courage of the Congressional Black Caucus, especially Conyers but many of the others as well. Sometimes I think they're the only REAL Democrats (in the traditional populist sense) we have these days.

I tend to think classism plays a bigger role today in America. It's just my opinion, but I base it upon real-world observations I make.

You could ask the question "Can you imagine being a caucasian in poverty in the USA today?"

That would be worse than being African American in some cases, especially if you're comparing a poor caucasian to a middle or upper-class African American.

Poor whites and poor blacks are essentially in the same boat as I see it, along with poor Latinos.

That would be hysterical if it wasn't so sad.

How many times has he met with the NAACP?

How many African Americans does he let get close to him that are not his servants living in his White House?

Please don't tell me about Condi and Company, she is a puppet.

How close did he get to New Orleans, the real New Orleans?

There are many extremely wealthy Blacks, how many are his buddies, real buddies?

It is still about RACE in America, class runs a distant second.

Because of Condi and Colon Powell. The old "some of my best friends are black."

But I think Condi let Black America down after Katrina. She could have done more to ensure something gets done. She could have encouraged Bush to do more. Instead, she did nothing.

A lot of white people, whether they admit it to themselves or not, would rather hire a white or a Mexican over a black person.

unless they are working on Wall Street - :)

If you're poor and you need a job, you're not picky. If those blacks you're talking about insist on only working for people on Wall Street, then they better take a number.

and we know that, that is nothing new to us.


I'm saying that we have been working for WHITE people since WHITE people brought us here in slave ships.

We "worked" for them in slavery so we still have a bitter taste in our mouths when we have to beg them for jobs. Or when they pass us over for a job because our name may be Kalitha or Jamal. Or we don't wear our hair the way that Jennifer Anniston does.


Or, when we have to beg them to pull us out of the water in New Orleans.
Or when after we finally got out of the water, we have a more difficult time finding a job than White Americans that had to be displaced by Rita, Katrina and the rest of the White Names of Hurricanes.

I was saying Wall Street because there are still few of us in the real money making jobs.

Are poor blacks "happy" when they get a job, of course they are.

Are rich and middle class Whites and Blacks happy when they get a job, of course they are. I know I have been happy every time I have been selected for a job!

By the way, we have been taking " a number" for centuries. We know what it is to be rejected.

Poor whites and blacks are NOT in the same boat and I wish people would stop saying that. No poor white would want to exchange places with even a rich black person and I believe you know that. A white man laid off from his job is much more likely to get another one before a black person. A poor white trying to get a loan is not likely to be given a high interest rate even though his credit is good. Poor whites are not racially profiled. How often to you hear of poor whites being gunned down by the cops while reaching for his cell phone or wallet. How often are poor whites the victim of police brutality. Poor whites don't get their applications thrown in the garbage but applications with black sounding names are thrown out. The injustices inflicted onto to blacks are endless. Poor whites are less likely to get the death penalty than blacks, are less likely to be subjected to the three strikes law. So no, poor whites and blacks are NOT in the same boat at all.

clear and rightous posts.

Right you are, if poor whites and poor blacks are in the same boat than let's trade seats!

I bet not one poor White would give up their seat to be a Poor Black in America!

He said the same thing in one of his comedy routines. To poorly paraphrase: "There is a one-legged, white waiter who wouldn't trade places with my rich, black ass. He'd say, "you know what? I am gonna ride this white thing out. See where it takes me.""

technically you are correct, but at the end of the day after you come down off your soapboxes, a poor white guy can't feed his family any better than a poor black guy that day.

I get it.

to you- but i'm in a rush-
I believe i've mentioned i'm a very 'white'= pasty white w/freckles- woman, and my youngest son is an absolutely beautiful rich chestnut brown.- We live in a very 'white' rural community- (though it is becoming more and more diverse much to my joy) My son has often expressed the desire to be 'white'- and while i've tried to help him connect to his ancestral roots, he is still young and just learning to embrace and celebrate his 'uniqueness'-
One thing i pointed out to him,- and continue to point out- is that the truth of his being unfairly judged because of his 'shell'- it is not something only he faces- not to be-little his struggle- but the way we women seek to starve ourselves because being 'fat' is often judged as 'lesser than' or 'short men' or 'asians' (every asian isn't chinese is something many people forget) or Middle-Eastern, etc.
The thing that has helped the most is the recognition that so many 'white' people do everything in their power to darken their skin- even to the extent of laying in containers of light, doing nothing but trying to 'bake themselves brown'- or sit with all sorts of chemicals in their hair trying to get the shiny tight curls that he has covering his head- They emulate 'corn-rows' and 'hip-hop' and play blues, and jazz with hard practiced determination. and i point out to him what my father often said to me- "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"-
We watched Michael Jackson do all sorts of things to himself to make his outside into something other than the beautiful work it was in the beginning.- I try very hard not to discount my sons desire to 'fit in'- or belittle the unkindness, and prejudice that is still very much alive in this world, acknowledging that in order to change it, we have to SEE it- and CALL it out- as ugly as it is.
We've learned together about how indebted America is to the African Americans. That we would never have made this country without the toil, ingenuity, blood, suffering, wisdom, and especially the ENDURANCE and optimism of his ancestors.
From the first death in the war for Independence- (Crispus Atticus at the Boston Massacre) through this present day- MLKjr. taught the world that there ARE things worth dying for- and that no matter how dark, overwhelming, or impossible something may seem, we should still press on- The love and patience, forgiveness, and wisdom that he gave to this world lives on, and inspires everyone.

As a young girl i heard MLKjr's words "I have a dream, that ALL God's Children would join together at last and sing the words to that old Negro spiritual "Free At Last, Free At Last, thank God Almighty we're FREE AT LAST!" and i knew i was hearing a man who spoke words that would last forever- about a goal that all of us truly desire- deep down.

Any wisdom you, or any others could give me as to how to help my son continue to value himself, while acknowledging that there are people in this world who will choose to judge him and discount him without reason- but not to 'give up' or allow himself to be someone who lives life 're-acting' and not consciously choosing to act with the courage of his convictions would be GREATLY appreciated.

I didn't mean to get so carried away- but the truth of the OP some of the comments on this thread, NOLA and watching my son standing at his schools holiday 'tea' and in a voice loud, clear, and knowing read Langston Hughes' 'Ballad of the Brown King' ending with ..." Three Wise Men, One dark like me--Part of His nativity" both filled my soul with love, overwhelming gratitude, and ... fear-
i love too deeply...

I would suggest that you encourage your son to be involved in the Black community so he has Black role models. I've come to the conclusion, that no matter how much I talk to my son about racism and ways to overcome it, I cannot teach him everything that someone who has experienced it can and instill racial pride in the same ways that those from the Black community can. Further, my husband is a great dad to him, but when my son spends time with his Black coach or Black males at the church he goes to, he gains something my husband couldn't give him.

And the fact is, children do better when they have connections and role models outside of their immediate family, regardless of racial issues.

But, back to my main point, my son is very close to a Black family that he spends some weekends with and attends church with. He learns things from his friends' family, that I as a white, could not teach him. Some things are subtle, unspoken survival skill type things, others are a sense of racial pride. (We have his three buddies spend weekends at our house as well).

The fact is, growing up as a privileged white, I don't understand all of the complexities and subtleties and respect the knowledge and wisdom of those who do.

I do however know how to deal with the white system, understand and run circles around the white code speakers and I have used those skills to advocate for him in the public schools and in other circumstances.

BTW, my son is l4 and is a great kid. He gets very good grades, although they tried to "special ed" him in kindergarten and put him on ritilan because he's high energy, (we didn't allow that to happen of course) has lots of friends (Black and white) and is on the football team. He is a very well adjusted, successful and happy teenager.

But honestly, it IS harder for Black males, particularly as they get a bit older. We noticed a marked difference in how he was treated as he grew into a young man. As a little boy, he did not pose a threat to the racists in the same way he does now and was not negatively stereotyped, in the same ways he is now. So brace yourself, but know you can and he can rise above it. I often tell my son, when he's dealing with someone who is unfairly judging him or trying to pigeon hole him, "Sucess is the best revenge." He's got a very positive outlook and is very ambitious. Stay strong. :hug:

I was talking to some parents at a party, poor parents share a lot of the same problems, for sure. But, I noticed some important differences.
The black parents I talked to, felt the need to council their kids on racial profiling when they taught them how to drive. Be extra careful in these neighborhoods, no sudden moves, etc.
I don't think white families have to conscientiously go through those lessons. It says something about us.

Ones that whites don't. No doubt. Dealing with the cops is a biggie.

Seems to me those are usually the folks who like to call it classism...

Of course it must be difficult to be a white in poverty. Yet, the existance of classism does not dismiss the fact that there is a lot of racism in our country.

24% of Blacks live in poverty
8% of whites live in poverty

Not to mention the other gaps in health care, education, incarceration rates, etc. between Blacks and whites.

How do you explain those discrepancies if not to attribute them to racism?

Sorry, but racism is a horrific social ill in our society that needs to be addressed.

minimum.

peace

I'd like to go to Italy!

every man, women & child for themselves

peace

I consider the experience my master's degree.

imho

:hi:

peace

I envy the time you spent in Europe--it's a totally different world over there. Though as I write this I have to wonder about the trouble in France this year, with blacks that were pissed off and started to riot...

Either way, I still envy you.

Spending time outside of my state was HUGE for me. Seeing the segragation in Chicago and pervasive, underlying racism in a LOT of people there--crazy.

That's what changed everything for me.

I can relate!To hear that things are 'so equal' all it takes is to marry into another race/ethnicity and see how ass-backward everything still is in many ways. LOL!

If you haven't already, visit the Interracial and Multicultural forum on DU! You may have posted there already, I am ill right now and not completely coherent. LOL! We'd love to have you! :hi:

Here's a link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=289

:hi:

It is indeed a difficult time for blacks today. This nation seems to be regressing in the area of civil rights. It's beginning to remind me of the post reconstruction era.

African-Americans are easy to identify. And, this is not to you "dwarf," but for those saying "don't say African-American." Have you ever wondered why they use a continent to describe their heritage and not a country (Italian-American, Irish-American...etc)? Maybe it is because the only thing they know as fact is their ancestors were brought here from Africa! They didn't "immigrate." They were forcibly removed and brought here. They don't know what country, but they do know what continent. Furthermore, if that is how they wish to be identified, then that is how we identify them. We don't chose, they do!

Blacks in this country still have to face all kinds of crap: followed in stores, pulled over for "DWB," called "blacks" to their face, and "niggers" behind their backs by co-workers....the list, disgustingly, continues!

My partner just returned from a trip to NC. One of his co-workers commented on the number of "spooks" in NC (the small town we live in, in OK, is all but devoid of African-Americans). "Spooks?" :wtf: What century is this?! So, I am sending him to work with a picture of our niece, who happens to be Black! Let the motherfucker call her a "spook," and he will discover that I can be meaner than a cornered snake!

But it is not just Blacks that get it. Look at how Arabs are portrayed in the media. They are always the terrorists or run the 7-11. Native Americans are all drunks and work at casinos. What about the gays? Well, we are all just immoral sex-fiends wanting to fuck fat, white, rednecks asses (as if!) or children. While we are at it, what about the Jews? We obviously don't do enough for some groups and, for others, well, we control them and we are all more loyal to Israel than our native homes.

The highest number of victims of hate crimes (in the US) are African-Americans. For religion, the highest number are for Jews. For sexual orientation, that should be a no-brainer! The real problem is not just in the white community, it is in the HUMAN community!

:applause: :applause:

:yourock:

Hello from NC and proud our state has a 22% Black population. :hi:

We had a similiar experience, on the flip side, when we visited the Poconos in PA, and went through a number of small towns up there. When people saw my son walk into a cafe or store, they were SHOCKED and looked as if they'd never seen a Black person in their life, let alone, with a white family.

As much racism is in the South, I feel much more comfortable in a region where there are a good percentage of Blacks oppposed to an all white area, like Iowa or upstate NY. It's scary going into an all white town.

Many people don't realize this, but our neighbor state, SC has the most integrated families and marriages than any other state, in fact, it's three times higher than the national average. Integration is now being used more and more as one measure of racism. (Of course, the less integrated, the more racist). We vacation in SC some and never feel uncomfortable because there are so many mixed couples and families.

Great post, btw.

... to keep myself afloat. It seems like bill collectors are just as obnoxious to us white folks.

pinch.

That's why I don't understand why anyone in America would vote for the Republicans.

He is crushing the lives of every ordinary American and the very rich may be getting rich but is Bush worth it to them? I don't think so.

Therefore,there must be a hidden agenda for all those so called votes ~ fear, racism,thinking he will give the average Joe power when he ain't giving Joe Average nothing but heartache.

sad to see how many people got distracted on this thread by the exact kind of tanget that keeps all these central issues from being discussed fully.

Most of us walk through our days without even a second thought about how different this country looks from the position of a those who aren't clearly in the majority. We have no clue how deep some of the feelings run...and we try to reflect on these feelings we get caught up in quibbling about the surface issues...and lose sight of the real pervasive issues of continued, in your face, blatant repression, racism, and disparity that exist acrossed the board. Maybe we're scared to admit how crappy a job has been done...maybe we're afraid to consider whether or not we're responsible in some way for the way things have been perpetuated.

I'd love for things to be different. But just like that other thread talking about how hatred develops between countries and cultures...I doubt we even begin to understand how to end this in our lifetimes. I want to. But I don't know how to create the change it would honestly take.