Death penalty supporters - Please read the cases on this site.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

If you are an honest person, and read the case histories on this site, you will be FORCED to change your mind about the death penalty.

I will always support the death penalty in cases of serial killings, or any conviction where video tape evidence or DNA is used as proof.

Trust no photographic evidence.

Also, DNA can be fraudulently handled by law enforcement to "improve" a case.

You can take neither sort of evidence as 100% certain.

but neither is acceptable as sole conclusive proof of guilt.

without video or DNA evidence?

What then is your criteria for finding guilt for "serial killings" and what constitutes "serial" in your mind?

What do you think I mean by "serial"?

Those whose crimes aren't caught on camera or with DNA evidence should get a different punishment why?

Anyone facing the death penalty on the sole basis of eyewitness testimony is being railroaded, in my opinion.

But when you find a guy's spunk all over the dress of the 80 year old lady he raped and murdered, he deserves to die, PERIOD.

If such a thing happened to someone I cared about, I'd spare the state the trouble and kill the bastard myself.

Just clearing that up.

I'm against that. That's certainly not the only reason I'm against the DP, nor is it the most important, but it's a reasonable consideration.

So not suprising DP defenders just gloss over it.

Vengeance is everything.

I'm perplexed by anyone who supports the death penalty, and even more so when these folks purport to be Christians. They may be "churchy," but they ain't Christian, at least not in the sense that they do what the Bible says Jesus preached....

or ever has been?

I think we, as a society, would be well served to take a stance against death as a matter of principal. I think it would be a good step toward behaving in a civilized fashion. The death penalty as punishment is just too much like the parents hitting their kids, all the while saying "How many (whack) times do I have to (whack) tell you not to (whack) hit your sister."

Life without parole should be sufficient criminal punishment for even the most heinous crimes (and I agree that life without parole should mean just that).

While I'm up on my soapbox, I think the problem became more pronounced when criminal trials began including "victim impact statements". I do not believe these have any place in the criminal justice system. The criminal justice system is means by which the state punishes those that commit offenses against the state. The civil system is where individuals have a chance to seek redress for the harms done them (a la the civil actions against Blake and OJ). It has been a long time since western justice systems have allowed capital punishment as a civil penalty, although I understand it is available under other justice systems, like sharia.

YMMV

I am opposed to the death penalty.

But I don't understand your stance against victim impact statements being used in criminal cases.



I realize that you're talking about the effect of victim impact statements in relation to the death penalty being issued, but to say that there is no place for them in the criminal justice system at all is wrong, IMHO. By that reasoning, a theif or vandal should not have to pay restitution, unless the victim files a separate civil suit to recover damages?? Violent crimes should require no responsibility on the part of the offender to pay for medical costs incurred by the victims, without separate litigation??

Victim impact statements are used AFTER a conviction or guilty plea, at the time of sentencing, at least in my area. They are not used in deciding the innocence or guilt of the accused, they are only used to help gauge the severity of the crime to the victim at sentencing.

Are you saying that crime has no actual victims, that only the "state" is affected? Are you saying that real victims of crime should not be heard in the proceedings, other than as a "witness" to what was done to the "state"?

I'm not the state, buddy. I'm the person who was kidnapped, raped, and left tied to two trees. My daughter is not the state. She is the person who was attacked in her bed by an intruder who broke into our house on a school night. You bet we filled out the victim impact statements. We were victims, and we let the court know the of the impacts these crimes had on us. The questions asked in the statements were about any physical harm (include doctor bills), emotional harm (include counseling bills), loss of property (include bills or estimates for replacement/repair), loss of wages (include proof of wages), and opinions on restitution and sentencing.
The judge takes these things into consideration when imposing the sentence, but only CONSIDERATION, the victim does not write the sentence. And again, this is only after guilt has been decided.

There are plenty of instances when guilt is decided wrongly, I know that. This is why I'm against the death penalty altogether. But to completely excise the victims' right to address the court with the severity of the impact on them is going too far in the other direction.

While I have never been the victim, my sister has. She was assaulted and the man sent to prison 15 years ago was recently found to be innocent of the assault.

My point is that victim impact statements seem to me to add more heat than light to the sentencing considerations. I recall the victim statements televised in connection with the Green River killer. The statements had absolutely zero effect the sentencing, which had already been determined by a plea bargain. It served only as an opportunity for the victims' families to express their hate and heap vitriol upon him. While he is lower than pond scum and deserves to be reviled by all good people, the point is that the statements had NO impact on any judicial proceeding. While this was admittedly an extreme example, it seems that the observation is too often true in less extreme cases. The victim statement seems to often be there there only to give the victim closure, or an opportunity to be heard. While I understand the sentiment behind giving the victim a voice, the fact remains that under western systems of justice, the people have ceded the power of retribution to the state, to prevent rule by mobs and rule by warlords. Part of this bargain requires that we let the state mete out justice - fairly and impartially to all. This to me, logically dictates that the victim's role and say in the sentencing is subordinated to the role of the state. Allowing victim statements, of the type described above, is too often inflammatory and leads, I believe, to substantial risk of inconsistent punishments, and perhaps even contributes to the blood-lust exhibited by many in capital cases.

That is not to say that I am opposed to restitution being awarded by criminal courts - however there are better ways to arrive at the appropriate restitution. And no matter what, restitution is only about return of money lost, the power to punish has been ceded to the state, and even the state cannot provide restitution for lost lives and other non-monetary harms.

As I pointed out in my original post, other justice systems allow punishment to be meted by civil courts, and some even allow blood retribution - but not in any place I want to live.

again YMMV

The fact that we have not really become civilized yet should not be an excuse for condoning incivility and barbarism.

to all the benefits men get, that we should just ignore the problem, cause hey... it's always been this way.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!

all in one sentence.

?

Its not and never has been.

Just to point out an error, or are you hinting at a larger point?

This thread is about the death penalty, not whether the world is civilized enough.

I think you are reading to much into what I posted.

It was more of a random exasperated comment than anything else.


But since I made it as we've gone this far, I can still connect the dots even though Im doing so in retrospect.

If the basis of declaring that the DP is wrong because it doesnt belong in a civilized world, then the corrollary is true if the basis is wrong. I.e The world isnt civilized so the DP isnt wrong per se.

Now Im NOT going to hang my hat on that. IM just bored right now and making conversation. :)

Thanks for the clarification.

Peace. :)

Of the 20 or names I picked at random from the list on that site, all but 2 were black, one of those two was hispanic and the other white.

:yourock:

<--- That is supposed to be a bowing smiley.

period.

of Kenneth MacDuff.

Because even if Kenneth MacDuff did the crime, and I have no doubt he did, other people caught up in the same machinery of death did not, and we cannot save those innocents without stopping the machine. And we cannot prevent it from happening again without dismantling it.

This is eye-for-an-eye bullshit and it needs to stop.

I will always be against it.


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supporters all day, and all I keep getting are crickets

They support it, they are the majority... ok execution day is a holiday, during the day, all programing on ALL TV and radio is preempted by the execution, preferably at dinner time, and done in the public square VERY PUBLICLY.

Care to tell me how many DP supporters will support it if they have to actually bother to watch it instead of hearing the accounts from the press? Historical factoid, the DP was loosing its appeal when it moved inside the prison walls. They think they are in the right, lets go public. After all we complain S. Arabia is barbaric for doing it publicly and we were outraged when the Tali ban did them in the soccer fields... ok... only difference between them and us is that at the very least they are willing to watch.

Our queasy tummies cannot accept actually watching... I am willing to bet on that.

Oh and for those who go, poor victims, sure as the death warrant is read, have photos or video of the victims, sure...

I am willing to bet that this will force the national conversation to start... and maybe for people to realize finally how the death penalty brutalizes societies that practice it. Our lack of national health care I dare say is connected with our true lack of respect for life.

But yes, the majority would be sickened.

But then they don't want to see the conditions their shoes are made in, either.

and I have yet to have any of them have an actual discusion on this with me. Hell, I will actually contact my State Reps and propose precisely this... since there is such deep support, lets go public.

The problem with trying to inflame a national debate against the death penalty in a country that uses lethal injection is that lethal injection executions aren't fun.

And by "fun" I mean flying heads, bodies dangling from ropes, blood spurting, guts spilling out of bellies, guys slumping down after they'd been shot, none of that.

In a chemical execution, they connect you to a pair of IV lines and inject three chemicals into them. The first chemical sends you to sleep. The second one puts a big, contented-looking smile on your face. The third just turns you off. (And yes, I know the reason for the smile is the paralysis caused by the pancuronium bromide. The person with the Pavulon in him isn't happy at all, but he looks like he is.) Show that on national television to Joe and Jane American, and they'll think the convict just happily went to sleep and won't ever wake up. Or, more than likely, what will happen is that instead of watching regular television at dinner that night they'll put a DVD in. (Also consider that there are thousands of freepers in this country who will watch executions to see criminals get "exactly what they deserve.")

If you want to ignite a national debate about execution by televising them, they first thing you'll need to do is to change the method of execution from lethal injection to seppuku. Show three or four seppuku executions in prime time, and people will start screaming for abolition.

Do you really think a two-hour special on Tookie Williams' execution would change anything? You'd have a massive amount of footage on the four people he died for killing. (I used "died for killing" instead of "killed" because, although every appellate hearing he enjoyed upheld the idea that Tookie Williams was the killer, there are DUers who claim he didn't do it.) You'd see every photo taken of Tookie's victims. You'd hear reminiscences from the victims' families. You'd see the devastation that the Crips wrought on America. By the time Tookie walked into the death chamber, 95 percent of America would be calling the special 1-800 number at the bottom of the screen to tell them lethal injection is too good for Tookie and couldn't they just shoot that worthless motherfucker instead? Hell, 40 percent of them would ask if they could come over and blow Tookie's brains out themselves. Yes, you'd hear about Tookie's Nobel nomination and his children's books, but they'd spend five minutes talking about Tookie's redemption and 100 minutes talking about what a scumbag he is. (The other 15 minutes would show him being executed, and a chemical execution is boring.)

On the other hand, if you were to spend 50 minutes talking about Tookie's life before prison, 50 minutes talking about his antigang activities in prison then 20 minutes with him walking from his cell to the garden in the prison square, kneeling, slitting his belly with a knife then getting his head chopped off with a sword, you'd get a different reaction.

Americans are allergic to death, the real deal. That is why we don't want to see troops on the teevee, why real gross crime scenes are really NOT shown on teeevee, and even the worst of perps going to his maker with lethal injection would force the debate. Yuo cannot ignore the labored, at times very labored breathing that comes with it. Also Sepukku is a way of honor... and some sick fuck will point this out... Hell I will. Now beheading, on the other hand....

Some states also have hanging and firing squad, and the prisners have the choice...

Oh and lethal injection was passed precisely becuase Americans ARE sqeaminsh about death.

The doses of the three chemicals are supposedly calculated so that any one of them is lethal. Well, that's obviously bullshit because no one ever died during a chemical execution until the potassium chloride was injected.

The labored breathing, etc., comes when the prison uses too little chemical either because it's expensive or because no one knew how to calculate the proper dose. Especially entertaining is when they use so little pentothal that the inmate wakes up--that's not supposed to happen.

Put this shit on national television and that first chemical will change from a little bit of sodium pentothal to an ounce of heroin. Shove a full ounce of heroin into a guy's veins and, no matter how big he is, he will die instantly. They'll still use the other two chemicals, but an ounce of smack will kill you dead if you're a rhinoceros.

I'm with you all the way, GIVE-EM HELL!!!

conviction and release! 10 years, 25 years, 20 years! Look at the time! The State stole these people's lives! And no one cares!

All the State does is "we're sorry and you're free to go!" There should be a $10 million dollar per year compensation law on the books! IT wouldn't give back the person's life, but it will put a dent in the State's resources if this happens!

Our justice system is disgusting and heavily tainted and shifted towards the prosecution!

prosecution as you think. Ever lived under Napoleonic Law? Here we at least pretend the state has to prove your guilt, and if you can afford it, you will get quite the defense. Under Napoleonic Law you have to prove your innocence, since you are already guilty. Granted the system needs lots of work to make it fairer, but most people will not be bothered to actually fund the public defender's office. In my view, we should have a similar system to what the brits have for criminal prosecution... one day as a lawyer you are the defense lawyer, next week you work for the Prosecutors office... and all of this comes from the same well funded state office. For the most part, criminal cases in the UK don't have private Barristers... now is their system perfect? Far from it, but at least at the defense level I dare say it is a tad more equitable.

Now as to compensation, it really is a state matter. Here in California former state prisoners are compenstated for it once the State AG decides to go, oops we made a mistake. It is not ten million, but I beleive, (I would have to look it up) is close to a mil.

Yes it is. Trust me. . .I live next to four prosecutors and two former DAs. It is so tainted towards the state! They have the resources to do anything. I'm echoing their words, not mine!

there is a hell of a difference to having the resorces to do anything they want, to acutally you having to prove your innocence. Now LA is infamous for having a system that is not fair, especially if you are minority and in particular if you are black. But even in that case the state has to still pretend.

Lets just say in a napoleonic system you are assumed to be guilty even in a car crash, and you have to pay reparations to the state for damages.

This has nothing to do with the actual Death Penalty itself

This has everything to do with changing the way our Justice system works, or doesnt work

This does not change my mind in anyway

But going forward, we all need to work to get some of our laws changed for the better,
and change the Justice System so it finally works.






Throughout history, compassionate minds have pondered this dark and disturbing question: What is society to do with those members who are a threat to society, those malcontents and misfits whose behavior undermines and destroys the foundations of civilization? Different ages have found different answers. Misfits have been burned, branded, and banished. Today on this planet Earth, the criminal is incarcerated in humane institutions, or he is executed

I don't believe any system involving human decisions can EVER be perfect.