I was home sick today and watched Oprah talking about cheating wives.

Apparently men who cheat are "dogs", and women who cheat are neglected by their husbands.

having affairs with younger men, as "hot" and "exciting," and older men -- of the exact same age -- having affairs with younger women -- of the exact same age -- as somehow being "lecherous" or "exploitive."

Sauce for goose, ganders, etc...

n/t

Sally Jessie Raphael was the worst with that stuff. Ricki Lake is not much better.

:shrug:

like the teacher in FL who molested her student - it's a double standard.....I only saw the first guest (the blond) - she even wasn't going to tell him but for the flowers delivered by her lover....now that's doggish...

Hope you are feeling better...:hi:

:eyes: I'm a woman and if I'm someday married it'd be my fault for cheating.
Same thing with the husband. I would be just as much as a homewrecker as the husband would be.

...in that medium for decades now. I used to get disgusted by all the "women good, men bad" crap they spewed on there back during the '80s.

Guys are pigs, women are frustrated.

jerry`s guests misery makes me feel alot better. oprah thinks she is a goddess...

she is equally a dog.

didn't watch Oprah, but I did learn something...

NO WAY in HELL are those damn dogs getting more squeaky tennis balls for Christmas.... I'd have gotten more rest at work.

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I really haven't seen any of these man haters of which you speak....

once the power disparity between the sexes becomes a little more normalized.

After all, when a woman can expect to make only 79 cents to every dollar a man makes, and when women often pay higher prices than men for the same thing (simple hair trims and dry cleaning to name only two), you begin to see who holds the real power in any relationship. Add to that the fact that much of the work women do in this world is unpaid, and it only adds to the power imbalance.

Therefore, the old coot with the arm candy will be seen as exploitive, while the old gal with the boy toy will be seen as "ya still got it, grandma." Men who cheat will be seen as acting on cock privilege, while women who cheat will be seen as asserting independence.

Double standards are usually pretty stupid until you start examining what lies beneath them.

cite the cost of getting one's hair done as an example of the disparity between the sexes.

I guess all those female hair-stylists are mandated by law to charge outrageous prices. :) Yes, we see who holds the power.

if someone would start a reasonably priced chain of hair salons for women.

I guess the man would never allow it to happen though.

Women's clothing is usually more expensive but of inferior quality to men's clothing (this goes for shoes too).

My wife got me a pair of Sketchers 5 years ago when we first started dating. I wear them just about every day (I also have 1 pair of sneakers). My wife has 5 pairs of shoes just in the living room, with a closet full of them downstairs and another closet full of them upstairs. Even her "favorite pair" she only wears 5 or 6 times a month. At that rate, they will still be in good shape for years. They'll go out of style long before she wears them out.

You get a MANS shirt cleaned and pressed for 59 cents, but a Womans shirt? $2.80. :mad:

that's the one I wish I could reverse

I usually just buy my own.

My Dad buys a suit, gets FREE alterations done in about two days. I spend about the same amount for a business suit, and there are either NO alterations available, or they are very expensive and a pain in the neck.

and it only takes my barber about ten minutes to trim the hair that I have left. Doesn't it make sense that my haircut would cost less than my wife's?

who has long straight hair to pay more to get a two inch trim than my husband who as longish, styled hair to get it completely redone? Paid $8 more - once. Told the owner of the salon he would never see either one of us again.

Why is it so hard to understand that these costs should be based on services rendered not gendered.

that a woman who is cheating on her husband must have been driven to it by the misogynistic inequalities of our patriarchal society?

than men are.

Every married person knows the "invisible line," and does not cross it unless they're uninterested in remaining married.

IMHO, YMMV.

Julie

What's it's really about is maintaining gender roles and double standards. Women who cheat simply must be seeking some emotional fulfillment they are missing because otherwise *gasp!* they'd just be getting some sex on the side. Oh no can't have that. 'Cuz we know women don't like sex. Conversely, guys can ONLY be getting sexual gratification from cheating and hence, are dogs. 'Cuz we know guys are uninterested in relationships.

I think that female philanderers are viewed through that prism because the Madonna/Whore complex still reigns. Marriage is still considered a woman's higher calling and married women are paragons of respectability so people are really uncomfortable with one who deviates from that. So they create this myth that cheating wives are pitiable "neglected" creatures. I actually think it's more insulting to us than being called a "dog" or, hell, even a "whore", though it does place unfair blame on the male. Because it's saying we're these passive vessels with no desires of our own.

TV can make you sicker.

get well soon (blow up your tv)
dp

In other cultures it's just considered normal--people get bored with each other and look elsewhere.

Where and when did we become such monoga-nazis?

Count your blessings.

Lifelong romance is an awful lot to ask of every single marriage. I guess, never having been married, I wouldn't know.

I'd think your spouse cheating on you would be a concern. It would be to me.

This would be a concern, provided you still slept with him/her. I'm not saying I would cheat if I were married--I'm just wondering why everyone treats it as tantamount to child rape-murder? :shrug:

>I'm not saying I would cheat if I were married--I'm just wondering why everyone treats it as tantamount to child rape-murder?<

I read further down in the thread about TahitiNut's experiences; I am so, so sorry, TahitiNut. You didn't deserve that. :cry:

I'll try to explain my thoughts here, but I have to do it in generalities. There are only two things that would cause me to seek legal advice and to file for divorce. An affair is one of them, either physical or emotional. I'm of the opinion that emotional affairs are more devastating than physical ones -- after all, I suppose anyone could make the argument that it was just a physical thing, they were bored with sleeping with the same person for umpteen years, etcetera. An emotional affair means that you've invested the energies, thoughts and emotions that belong to your spouse with someone else. I understand that there are many couples in which one or both parties have cheated; they managed to forgive, put the pieces back together, and they're still married. I wish I were that big of a person. I put my whole trust in one other person; if he violated that trust, I would forgive him because I love him, but I could never trust him again. As I posted further up, there is an invisible line that any married person does not cross; I know what it is, but it may be different for someone else.

Julie

I've had a girlfriend cheat on me, it hurt because she did it to hurt me (picked the worst person to do it with.) But I didn't really feel like a trust was violated, it was never really there to begin with.

>But I didn't really feel like a trust was violated, it was never really there to begin with.<

Jed, I'm sorry that your ex-girlfriend was so cruel.

I'm no marital expert. I have to speak from my own experiences. The reason why people continue to get married in a society in which the divorce rate is over 60%? I think it's the triumph of hope over adversity. We all think that we're going to be the ones who make it work. When one gets married, one hopefully believes that they are forming a partnership with their spouse. Part of that new family is trust. I can love all I want, but if I don't believe that person is trustworthy, it will slowly destroy whatever feelings I have for them. I build their trust in me by my actions.

A good marriage is worth the work it takes to make it happen. I'm sure there are others on DU that would be more than happy to talk about this. We've also heard from a lot of people whose marriages imploded for a variety of reasons. This is a horrible, lingering pain because of betrayal. I keep remembering a C.S. Lewis quote I read in college: "To love is to be vulnerable." I open my heart to love, but I also risk at the same time.

I think it's impossible to sustain a great and lasting love without being emotionally transparent.

IMHO, YMMV.
Julie

If you set up the whole marriage based on a person never liking or wanting anyone else, I'd say you're dooming yourself. If you trust someone not to hurt you, not to steal from you, not to lie to you or run little games on you behind your back--isn't that enough trust to make you "vulnerable"? Why add a layer of "give up your fundamental human nature" to just plain "don't be evil"?

What hurt with my ex was that she wanted to hurt me, not that she had sex with another person. I'd even encouraged her to do that (for various reasons--mostly because I thought she was gay or bi) in the past. I'm not really jealous about that and haven't been since high school.

Interestingly enough, my most jealous girlfriends (including the one in question, who thought EVERYONE was after me) were always the ones who turned out to be messing around with my friends.

So, if I did get married, it would probably not be to someone who made a great deal about strict monogamy. :)

>If you trust someone not to hurt you, not to steal from you, not to lie to you or run little games on you behind your back--isn't that enough trust to make you "vulnerable"? Why add a layer of "give up your fundamental human nature" to just plain "don't be evil"?<

I never said that anyone who's married would not like or want anyone else. To use an old cliche, I'm married, not dead. There's a difference between interest and acting on, or encouraging, that interest. Having sex with another person while married to someone else falls under "hurting me" in my definition.

I was inartful in my explanation re: vulnerability. I can't start or continue a relationship with someone I don't completely trust. I can't trust and I can't be vulnerable and open with someone I believe is not as committed as I am. I understand your point about human nature. If I knew that I had no commitment to monogamy, I would either not get married, or there would be negotiation with the other person about what the relationship consisted of.

>Interestingly enough, my most jealous girlfriends (including the one in question, who thought EVERYONE was after me) were always the ones who turned out to be messing around with my friends.<

We both have friends of the opposite sex. They're friends and nothing more. I know women come on to my husband; I've seen it happen. It's a weird feeling. He's pretty oblivious to it.

>So, if I did get married, it would probably not be to someone who made a great deal about strict monogamy.<

Jed, good for you, if you know this about yourself, then you and your partner can have whatever agreement you're comfortable with. I've enjoyed the discussion, and I wish you and your loved ones happy holidays!

Julie

them.

Cheating causes hurt, pain, and anguish. It ain't purdy.

Thus the women will be victimized little flowers and the men will be callous animals. People are comfortable seeing their gender norms confirmed on TeeVee.

And I'd gather a majority of those are stay-at-home moms. And of those, I'll bet that half have had serious thoughts of their husbands being unfaithful. Probably, a good 10-15% of her audience is right in their fears and their husbands have cheated on them with other women.

Now, if you're the producer for this show, what is the angle you are going to take to increase ratings and thus advertising rates? Don't forget, TV programs exist soley to sell advertisements or products on said shows.

Fascinatingly ... that means the if only the husband is cheating, he's not neglecting his wife. Bizarre.

As a divorced man (whose wife had "incompatible sleeping habits"), I can testify that the 'worlds' of divorced people differ as well. A divorced woman is asked "Poor dear, what did he do?" A divorced man is asked "Got caught, huh?" The blame-shifting of "neglecting the wife" is absolutely true. The word 'cuckold' applies only to males. The mutual friends tend to become "hers" -- and he gets to relocate to some other city. That's because everyone knows that "real men" don't need emotional support.


"Adultery among married couples is estimated to range from 26% to 70% for women and from 33% to 75% for men (Hite, 1976; Kinsey, Pomeroy, Martin, & Gebhard, 1953; Symons, 1979)."

>Everyone knows wives are fragile and weak. High maintenance.<

TahitiNut, again, I'm so sorry. :cry:

Wives need to reread their wedding vows, in my humble opinion. I've heard the phrase "you're as faithful as your options" before. It's crap. If one wants the benefits of marriage, one has to live up to the contract, and that includes NOT doing the horizontal mambo with others. (Then again, if the couple in question is polyamorous, that's their business.)

Meet someone else that makes one tingly in one's lady place? Walk away. Don't pursue it. Don't encourage the other party. It can be done. Can't resist it? Be truthful with the spouse and end it. Don't put someone else through that hell.

>That's because everyone knows that "real men" don't need emotional support.<

Men are just as desirous of (and need,) nurturing and emotional support as much (or maybe more,) than women do.

IMHO, YMMV.
Julie

I had a cheating husband and there was no way I could ever forget what he did - we both would have been miserable.

So, while I don't think women should get a pass on this (I empathize Tahiti), let's not sugarcoat ANY spouse cheating.

It kills families.

No, I do not mean in every instance. Someone who is only technically married to say, an abusive or otherwise unsuitable spouse doesn't really have an obligation to remain "faithful" to another person already being disrespectful to the commitment. Someone in a relationship that is otherwise functional, normal, even happy, who cheats...just because? Um--that person ultimately just doesn't care about the feelings of his or her partner. And has no excuse for how callous and weak that person is. Don't care enough about your partner to respect your partner's feelings about the commitment your mutually made to not have sex with someone else? Yeah, people do it all the time. Because people are assholes.

granted I only watched a few minutes of the show towards the end, but what I saw included couples discussing going to sex clubs. :shrug:

philanderess with two or three kids, who was searching for an affair when she met a guy in a club. There was also a woman in the audience who spoke of her own infidelity.

I only saw the first 15 minutes or so.

"Swingers" sounds like a much more interesting topic than "cheating housewives."

cheaters -- the relationships were understood and agreed to by all parties.

if by the same standard, a woman must fess up to being "dogs" (or cats) as well...No double standard here!

Not allowed!!!

People of both sexes cheat because the opportunity presents itself. The majority of married people don't give into the temptation, but neglect from either party is only one trigger that might result in adultery. It's too complicated a subject to boil down to a few neat and pat causes.

Making money from the exploitation of other people's misery...ditto to "Dr Pill"...

You can not like Oprah, but the Oprah hate on this board weirds me out. She came from a dirt poor background, won against all odds (black, female, poor, overweight), and has become a huge success who also gives a great deal of MONEY and TIME to making things better for people. Her show often annoys me, and I only watch it when I'm home sick, but Oprah has done so very, very much for people. She's not a pimp or a dope, and isn't one to be too exploitive, unlike Dr. Phil and some others.

I swear I've talked to more than one who claims that Oprah is singlehandedly bringing about the downfall of marriage, families, and men. One said to me in all seriousness that he wished he could assassinate her :wow:

I'm not a big Oprah fan myself, simply because most of my viewing these days is news, more news, the Daily Show, PBS, and C-SPAN. I don't have too much patience for any kind of "fluff", though I do know that Oprah has brought some serious issues to light, such as abuse of women throughout the world. Which makes her a terrible person I guess.

The guys who hate her are just bitter entitled whiners IMHO. How dare women get serious attention on TeeVee! Women are supposed to be bikini-clad and bouncing on trampolines while Adam Carolla and Jimmy Kimmel call them stupid bitches.

And you know they can't STAND seeing an older, large, Black woman with billions of dollars and power! That drives them crazy.

Its been proven thru science that the male sperm performs two roles:
- Half the sperm are "seekers", hunting for the egg.
- Half the sperm are "warriors", hunting for other sperm to attack and kill.

No lie.

Biologically, male sperm EXPECTS to find other sperm to fight for the right to impregnate the egg.

Monogomy is unnatural to the human being, as it is to many animals as well.

There;s nothing wrong with that. And if someone sells you the bullshit that they want to be with only you and turns around and starts screwing everything else, it can really bum you out. That's not science, but being hurt by someone who lies to you can be mentally disturbing.

I was simply stating scientific fact.

Being monogomous isn't natural and therefore is a great achievement for anyone that has the will and desire to do so, because they are strong enough to fight against their natural tendencies in favor of their moral principles.

which sucks. At any rate, maybe it was a signal to be more succinct:

In some of the sex studies, it seems that women have reported that they are more likely to have emotional, as opposed to sexual, affairs. Could the reason that womens' affairs are looked upon more sympathetically be that the value placed on a real connection, even in our sex-soaked society is greater than on that of sex.

Seems to me the fact that someone would have an emotional relationship is far more damning for the emotionally retarded spouse, than if the other partner "just wasn't pretty enough," or didn't want to put out three times a week, after having umpteen kids. This is not to say that there are not many men who need emotional support, or will have affairs for emotional reasons -- only that if women are more likely to cheat for psychological health, as opposed to an orgasm, that this is the dominant situation, and, therefore, makes the sterotype.

I have to say that I am a cheater, with impunity, and I dream for the day when I could find someone who would really make me happy. In every case, I've cheated because the guy was either a jerk, a dud, or was Fort Knox with the defensiveness thing. I've never cheated because someone's dick wasn't big enough, or they didn't make enough money, or they got a pot belly.

men for everything that goes wrong. The man is always wrong and the woman is always the victim. :wtf: :puke:

Oprah knows which side her bread is heavily buttered on