Holy shit! Some teacher told a bunch of 1st-graders there is no Santi Claus

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-santa16.html

Santa pardons Texas teacher for 1st-grade message


RICHARDSON, Texas -- Guess what, kids? There's no such thing as Santa Claus!

That was a suburban music teacher's holiday message earlier this week to first-graders. The remark angered parents and prompted the school district to issue a pro-Santa statement, KDFW-TV reported. Several parents made angry phone calls to Richland Elementary School in this Dallas suburb. ''When you take a 6-year-old and tell him, you got to spend how much time to get him to believe again? The damage is done,'' parent Michael Millett said.

Later, however, Richardson school district spokesman Tim Clark said he had good news.

''The teacher did hear from Santa Claus himself, who heard about the situation and let the teacher know that the spirit of the holidays is alive and well and to pass that message along to the students,'' Clark said.

The Truman Show.

lol

I'd love to know what promted this person to do that.

but this is a big deal in teacher world. Some kids believe with their hearts and souls and some kids LIVE to tell them they are wrong, and the teacher is in the middle trying to figure out what to say.

My best "Santa exists in our hearts."

To a second grader, that is a Zen koan to be pondered upon for hours, or at least until lunch.

is what I went with. My son was younger, not yet 5. He was troubled by the logistics of Santa but how he got in all houses kind of doubts could have been answered by "Magic"

It was his other concern that gave me pause. He didn't understand why Santa wouldn't bring a lot more toys to poor kids but just a few to kids who had parents who could buy the toys. Why did poor kids get so few? He knew the naughty and nice song and felt Santa must know poor kids are nice too.
So he thought Santa was pretend and really parents bought the gifts.

Well out of the mouths of babes. No magic answer for that.
So I told him about St Nicholas and how after he died his spirit lived on and blah blah blah. The truth with a mythological twist.

He thanked me for telling him the truth, it had really bothered him. But the funny thing is once the truth eased his little mind he went on to believe that he believed for a couple more years, as though he never doubted.

That same night he learned of Santa he asked if God was pretend like Santa. I was a happy agnostic and just told him no one knew. But kids must wonder about that.

He brought up the real drawback of the Santa myth and there is no good answer for it. Why wouldn't this kindly old gent bring presents galore to the poor kids who really needed them? Looked at that way Santa is a mean old man.

to two or three per kid. It's easier to say, then, that kids may only get the couple of santa gifts because their parents can't afford to buy any.

with my son also. I was surprised how young he figured it out - and I wondered if he wished that I had kept up the lie.

I found your story touching :)

As I'm not religious, I consider both baby Jesus and Santa Claus to be myths, perpetuated by politics and commerce. Since we don't have enough to argue about and disagree on, then of course, bring on the myth of Santa Claus as an approved subject to be taught in our schools.

:eyes:

if the parents of any of those children want them to know the truth it is up to them. That is one subject she didn't have to discuss.

And I can confidently tell my little girls that there is, indeed, a Santa Claus. I tell them that Santa is a spirit of love and giving, and that he's a Siberian shaman -- both true.

I just had to ask.

Don

.....he isn't real and people shouldn't fill their offspring's heads with deceptions that fuck them UP more times than not in the end....most people can't DEAL with REALITY...and make GREAT FUNDIES later on in life! :nopity:

Maybe that's why the US is so messed up. Too many of were led to believe that Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy existed. You might be on to something....

(so to speak)

about how you have to do so much work to get them to believe again :eyes: ... gee, maybe you ought to just accept that they now know the truth, and, if you so desire, find some other way to make the santa claus bit useful (which, incidentally, isn't all that difficult ... )

to have a job that involves working with kids.

response for dealing with issues like myths and legends.

I always tell/told my kids that if they believed in Santa, he would bring the presents, if they didn't, Mom and Dad had to buy them and pretend they were from Santa - it was up to them to decide.

My daughter told me that she thought Santa would bring better gifts if she was good, so she chose to believe!

How can we ever expect the truth when we perpetuate stupid lies. Kids enjoy the Santa presents just as much when they know that Santa is just a festive myth.

is a family matter.

that stealing is an honourable profession that's OK too or do we accept the feel good lies and only discuss the bad ones. There is no fugging Santa Claus and it hardly matters whose parents choose to lie on this one.

I am defenseless on this.

Just one question: where in the age 6 does the existence of Santa fall into the curriculum?

All I'm syaing is that Santa is a lie (albeit a pleasant myth) and if some kid asks me I'll say just that. How do you hope to teach children to speak the truth and start out with lies because they're pleasant.

"So if a kid's parents ...."

to the parents.

I was a teacher for a long time before I took my present job, and anyone who thinks that teachers only have to discuss reading, writing and arithmetic with kids needs to spend a day in a classroom. Kids discuss everything with their teachers (yes, they know about your fights and the fact that you came home drunk last night.) Teachers cannot ignore everything but curriculum.

I'll never forget one year when I was teaching third grade and some of the kids were saying that there is no Santa, upsetting others in the class. They came up to me and told me, in that typical third grade "I know all" voice, that there is no Santa Claus.
I looked at them, wide-eyed, and said, "There ISN'T???"

For the rest of that Christmas season, I could hear the whispers going around the room: "SHHHHHH - she doesn't know there isn't a Santa Claus."

I loved those kids.

santa claus.

I wasn't really so much addressing your post as wanting to get in my favorite teacher and Santa story. Sorry if I was misunderstood. I still remember the kindness of those kids to me, and hope they have always been so thoughtful. O8)

yet they do, and the same parents who yell the loudest about the teacher telling the kids the truth about Santa would raise hell if the school decided to drop the Christmas pageant.

math, reading, spelling...that kind of thing. Santa Claus will be a teacher's business the day he's included in standardized test questions, and not before. Wasting time on this stuff only moves the school closer to LNCB's "shit list".

:sarcasm:

continually teach their children about Santa Claus? They know those little hearts will be broken when they find out the truth. Why put someone through all that trauma unnecessarily? I just don't understand it.

....then we grow up and don't believe in much of anything....and here we are in a world that is FUCKED beyond rational comprehension and not many even seem to realize it...! :crazy: :nopity:

Oh sheesh what kind of killjoy are you. Have kids?

....much longer...and part of the problem is teaching the same old traditional supernatural bullshit instead of REALITY. :think:

You're saying that there is a link between making young children believe in Santa Claus and their apathy later in life to, say, global warming?

Did you believe in Santa Claus? I did. Didn't affect me in the way you're talking about. I'd guess that the majority of people on this board, nearly 80% most likely, at one time believed in Santa Claus. It doesn't seem to affect their ability to grasp reality. You want to talk about reality? Point to a study that proves your point. Otherwise you're just spouting something that has about as much validity as claiming Santa Claus is real. That's reality.

:eyes:

I hope you're trying to be funny here. Your logic is the same kind of logic that causes people to like that douchebag and others like him. Poor, or no, logic. Irrational unsupported beliefs.

I understand what you are saying. You are hypothesising that a culture which instills in it's youth beliefs in things that are patently absurd, such as Santa Claus, the easter bunny, leprechauns, and so on; is one which creates adults capable of believing in just about any absurd idea if presented to them in the right way. I just don't necessarily see any real evidence for this. Like I said, I would imagine that if a poll were taken that a vast majority of the people here on these boards believed in something absurd like that when they were kids, be it Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy or some other Fantasy. Therefore, the evidence doesn't really support your hypothesis.

In fact one could probably more easily make an argument that such fantasy creations actually helps people. It helps develop the creative aspects of our brain, which are essential in nearly every facet of later life. The ability to imagine and create fantasy isn't just important for authors, but for engineers and scientists too.

....LIKE SANTA and propaganda that's so easily fed to the ignorant masses....to each their own reality...this is why we're even here having this discussion in the first place because people are too ignorant and easily mislead. :think:

Is beleiving in Santa an irrational unsupported belief? As an adult the answer is obviously yes, but for a child the answer is not quite so simple. The statements of parents is key in the early belief, as children generally trust their parents to a very high degree. It's suppported by the evidence in their minds though. There are no presents under the tree when they go to bed, when they wake up they are there. They told Santa what they wanted, and now it's there. They see things on television, like weather reports 'tracking' Santa's progress. For them this is enough for a while. Yet the rational brain, even in children, is never ceasing. It's rare that a child makes it to eight or nine years old, while still really believing in Santa Claus.

For me, I realized it when the wrapping paper that the presents from Santa were in, was the same as the presents from my parents. They tried to play off their mistake, but I wouldn't have it. I saw evidence to the contrary and I called them on it. The tooth fairy was a simliar thing. When my first baby tooth fell out, I told my parents excitedly and put it under my pillow, and the next morning was the proud owner of a shiny dime. The next tooth though I put under my pillow without telling my parents. It just didn't occur to me that I needed to tell them. No dime.

These kind of stories, one could argue, might even help children to examine the evidence of their reality and come to their own conclusions about it. To not simply accept the statments of the people they trust, and look at the world for what it is. To see the tooth there in the morning, to notice the presents wrapped in the same paper. It could really help people think rationally.

Are people ignorant and easily misled? Perhaps. You could also term it trusting. Perhaps believing in Santa and waking up to the reality that there is no Santa might actually help people to not be quite so trusting. Don't you think?

....that's ingrained in them from birth...most obviously don't...at least from my perspective and experience...and again I have to say...to each their own reality...because this thread proves to me yet again...even more rational thinking people are still too easily manipulated into an irrational mindset when it suits them...that self righteous indignation knows no bounds regardless of ideology...so I guess we should just agree to disagree. :hi:

You obviously prefer your perspective and experience to actual study and science. I'm sorry, but if you think you have a rational mindset, you're sadly mistaken. I'm sure we'll disagree on that point. Irrational people are almost always incapable of realizing that they are irrational.

A little girl believes in Santa Claus. A freeper believes in what Rush tells them. You believe that they're irrational.

It's all the same thing. Try actually supporting your argument with ANYTHING other than your own personal perspective and you'll take a step above them. Until you do though it's all bs.

...believe I'm lesser somehow for not agreeing with you?! :eyes:

I'm asking for you to actually support your argument.

...plain and simple...it doesn't take much observation to see how liars and the people who support them have always and will continue to cause more harm to everyone else than any good....all written history proves this fact...Santa is used too manipulate and control...just like political propoganda....sigh..nevermind.

How's this for long winded...

Liars cause more harm than good. Telling kids that Santa is real is a lie. Therefore telling kids that Santa is real causes more harm than good.

Nice logic.

...you will regardless of any logic...or lack of it...

telling other people how to raise theirs.

And I always laugh when people say "I wouldn't want to bring a child into this screwed-up world," which I've been hearing since the 1960s. What would you prefer, the 1600s maybe? The Middle Ages?

Redstone

....just giving my opinion....so sorry you don't approve. :wtf:

There is no "reality." Our whole existence is construct, narrative and myth. There is no "truth," and everything is perspective. The only realities are physical -- hunger, pain (and even that's open to narrative), sex, birth, death, cold, hot, etc. Everything else is made up all around those things: love, leg shaving, living in a taupe house, identity politics, race, etc. It's all narrative -- so, in essence, if you want to start taking apart "traditional supernatural bullshit," you're going to have to take apart pretty much all of reality, including your own belief in what's "reality," and what's "right." If you're ready for that -- go for it. I'll see you on the other side, when you haven't washed your hair for three months, and you're talking to a lawn gnome in your new made-up language -- because the old one was "traditional supernatural bullshit."

Santa Claus is no worse than anything else. It's all an illusion. Might as well have a fun one.

...after shredding my KING JAMES BIBLE around late January 2001. :eyes:

You're insisting that there is a "reality," upon which we can all agree. The Bible, or religion is only the first step -- and a pretty easy one to see through, shred, and toss aside. It sounds like you have a lot more mythology to question, if you still believe in "reality."

...that is the TRUTH....as I stated in a couple other posts in this thread. :eyes:


And regardless of *how I sound* there's no need what.so.ever. for you to concern yourself with my psyche...thanks.

"and part of the problem is teaching the same old traditional supernatural bullshit instead of REALITY.

Who's going to teach "reality," anyway?

Like I said, you have a little bit further to go. ;)

....right...one man's truth is another man's lies...such is life the perpetual paradox. ;-)

Which is essentially, "A person who loves you very much is willing to lie to you because you enjoy the lie more than reality."

We tell them this whole big myth filled with impossible deeds, and because they are children and look up to us, they believe everything we say. Then when they get older we say "Well, none of that is actually true, it's just a nice story". How are they going to believe the next thing we tell them?

After all this, some parents demand that their kids believe another big myth filled with impossible deeds, this one actually written up in a book called the Bible. But why should they? It just sounds like Another Lie.

Personally, I never did see how the Santa story (or the Bible one, for that matter) could be true. Even at 5 I was plaintively asking my dad, "But do the reindeer have engines of some kind? And why do none of my nature books mention that reindeer can fly? Doesn't that seem sort of important?" I guess that's why I became an engineer. It's the reality-based thing - I just can't shake it.

I forced a confession out of my folks when I was 5 or 6. None of it made sense.

My very good friend told me that when her mother told her about the tooth fairy,
my friend started screaming hysterically. It scared her that someone she didn't
know would come into her bedroom while she was sleeping. Her mother had to fess
up because my friend was so terrified by the whole idea.

She and I are both atheists, for what it's worth.

come on. We inherited the Santa myth.

Myth is myth. Every culture has myth. Faeries, banshees, sprites, Santa, whatever.

Children have a natural ability to believe myth. They gravitate towards myth and the fantastic.

It's not an American thing. It's a human thing.

Finding out Santa Claus wasn't real didn't appear to scar them for life. And they got several really fun years of waking up to their 'Santa' presents under the tree.

But hey, maybe we like to foster our children's belief in fictional characters like the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus because we are sick fucks who like to mess with our kids heads.

Just think how much better a parent YOU will be.

Geez. I guess everybody just hates their kids and wants to fuck them up for life.

:eyes:

opportunity to do some good parenting. We admitted that an actual fat guy in a red suit does NOT enter the house and leave presents. But we discussed the concept of their being a little Santa in all of us. That 'Santa' was invented to give the spirit of giving a physical face.

It seemed to work for us.

I had when I was about 5, when I thought I saw Santa Claus's boot prints on our living room rug. Evidently my father had tracked in some mud. I bet my mother wasn't so thrilled, but I was just hugely excited and thrilled by those muddy prints. It is still one of my fondest memories and I would love to have that childlike awe again. When I was about 8 years old, I remember just before Christmas that year, thinking over the plausibility of Santa Claus and deciding, on my own, that I didn't believe he was real. I didn't tell my parents right away because I wasn't sure I'd get presents if I didn't believe. By the time the next Christmas rolled around, I was certain I didn't need to worry about not getting any presents. I was never once scarred by believing in Santa and when I had my own kids, I taught them about Santa. What parent would perpetuate a myth that had been harmful to them? None that I know of. Believing in Santa was an absolute delight for me. I grew up to be a nonbeliever in mythical things - who knew?

personally, or with my kids. But we never made a huge deal out of Santa, anyway.

I'm a fence sitter, myself. But I've talked with enough people who have nothing but happy memories of Santa belief.

If I had, I'd be worried about it but I've never seen it.

and i think it is a cute as pie story teacher coming back saying santa got a hold of her and set her straight. and crap a teacher would do this to kids

You obviously don't have children.

Fantasy and fun never hurt anyone.

I STILL believe in Santa Claus. He comes to my house every year and brings me something special.

and while they hold onto it (and they do, longer than they really "believe"), it's a lovely thing.

The trick, IMO, is making that transition well to the lessons of giving as well as receiving.

Possibly because we (or at least me) want children to think that the fantastic, the unimaginable, the wonder and the amazement can be a part of a their life.

Will it break their hearts when they find out Santa Claus is an simply allegory for human kindness and charity? Possibly? But no more than when they find out that parents are human and not supermen; that people can act in evil ways rather in addition to good or that not all cops, priests and doctors are 100% infallible.

Some people (like me) believe that naivete and innocence is to be cherished in children (and in all people) rather than replaced by cynicism and worldliness as soon as possible.

"Some people (like me) believe that naivete and innocence is to be cherished in children (and in all people) rather than replaced by cynicism and worldliness as soon as possible."

I couldn't agree more.

They are just KIDS.

Let kids be kids. It is part of the magic of childhood and forms memories that they will cherish forever.

:shrug:

That would be absolutly stupid.

It is the experience of having the belief torn away that builds character. It is a good lesson in dealing with disappointment.

Let's lie to our kids about everything...just think how much character that'll build! :eyes:

It's really not a crisis.

Sorry, but 6 year olds believing in SC is on the upper limit of age acceptability.

is the upper limit usually.

A six year old is more likely than not to still believe.

The 7 and 8 year old have begun to really critically analyze their world and have fun spotting the holes in the SC myth.

Actually, the Santa Clause myth can be seen through a different lens. The fact that children have to being to reason out why there can be no Santa Claus can be helpful in later life by using that same reasoning to tear apart other lies/myths. So perhaps it is a first step in learning about critical thinking.

Just a thought

Having taught since 1972, thousands of kids. The most common age for kids to make the big switch is Christmas second grade. They're about seven.

I still have third graders who believe, however.

It's a challenge. I try not to deal with it too much. No Santa pix in my classroom! Just a lot of Madonna and Child paintings. (I teach art/art history/world cultures)

suspicious but wants to keep playing along.

I don't remember ever asking my parents or saying anything when I found out.

I think a lot of kids keep playing along even after they know the truth just because it is fun.

as a child, and with my children. And we still refer to "Santa" bringing the Christmas gifts.

The Madonna and child, I mean. Would you tell them the truth? I think most teachers are experts in using the socratic method but some answer according to their own beliefs.

outweigh the believers (in my experience as the mom of 3)

by deference allow a student to believe?

But they love the story and the idea of Santa. We have a Santa that comes down on street every year on Christmas Eve-- my kids are the first ones out there to greet him. They play along and tell the Santa at the mall what they want for Christmas but then they ask me to go buy it.

At nearly 8, my oldest doesn't have a clue yet. He is in a small school with just a few classmates. That works to our advantage, I think.

I'm sure by next year we'll have to sit down and discuss the myth of Santa.

Because my kids believe in Santa?

paid by the Bush administration to destroy the NSEA.

there are rarely posts about all the great teachers doing their jobs every day, but I can count on finding a post about some atrocity almost daily.

The "Santa" question is not a question for teachers to answer. In the years I taught younger kids, I had some who still believed and some who didn't; it honestly never seemed to be an issue. I never had kids ask me, and I didn't have them trying to burst others' "Santa bubbles," either.

I remember so clearly, in my own childhood, the day I boasted to my grandma that there "is no Santa or Easter Bunny." I remember her horrified response: "Who told you that?" My mom, because I finally came out and asked her. I think it was a lot harder on my mom and grandma than it was on me.

Teachers are supposed to leave those kinds of questions to parents; many thousands of them have this year, as in every other year. "Some teacher" is one small needle in that haystack.

I would suspend the Teacher for a month with pay and send her to the North Pole to visit Santa,

Its very unfortunate. Childhood is supposed to be innocent and unassuming and trusting. Thisa person is just a scrooge-type on a power trip.

Let the kid be the kid with wide-eyed amazement. Its a joy for everyone.

you kept a child in isolation and taught it all things that were wrong?..like the color green was really the color purple and that ice cream tasted nasty and slimy okra was the best textured food in the universe..etc'...oh well, I guess one of the 'evil things' he could teach a kid was that santa clause existed till his heart was broken, like some have mentioned.

I forgot..when we learned santa really did not exist..did we also question all the other things our parents taught us, thus creating cynics of all of us?

they were a little sad - so I asked them - would your Christmas' have been better if you didn't believe? They decided that "No, the thought of Santa coming made them very exciting" and they wouldn't have had it any other way.

My little one gets so excited (he's a 6 year old in first grade) about the thought of Santa coming he nearly wets his pants!!! I think that has something to do with the fact that he has two teenage siblings that encourage the myth!

Wouldn't it be better for the kid to have them trust something that's actually, I don't know, true? How does telling them false stories build trust? I don't get this.

While I look forward to next year, when i think our son will realize what's going on, I also think I'd be upset for a teacher to enlighten him without my permission.
For one thing, it needs to be handled sensitively and it need to come from us, since we have been supporting the idea for all this time.

now, in abstract, I wish this society did not start this thing in the first place, it makes ending it at the appropriate time and in the appropriate way burdensome. But so is knowing how and when to explain sex, so its part of parenting.

However, even though I would have had a heated call to the principal if this happened at my son's school, there's no way I would try to reconvince him there is a santa claus. I would take this opportunity to try to explain the whole reason for the mystique of the merry elf.

The part I agree with is wanting to handle your kids learning about Santa for yourself. But I disagree that society should never have started it in the first place. We have some really precious "Santa" memories with our kids. And they don't appear to have been scarred or stunted in any way by having been 'fooled'. They look back fondly on their 'Santa' days. My son remembers making sure to leave out hay for the reindeer and my daughter and I still make cookies every Christmas Eve 'for Santa'. She is ten and has long since known that WE are 'Santa', but she gets a kick out of making the cookies and leaving them out for us before she goes to bed.

I don't know anyone who, as an adult, felt betrayed by their parents.

Santa Claus.

:cry:

''When you take a 6-year-old and tell him, you got to spend how much time to get him to believe again? The damage is done,''

Believe in what? An old fat guy who knows when you're sleeping, when you're awake, and gives you presents after sitting on his lap at the mall?

"Santa Clause refinances his workshop with Washington Mutual; company donates toys and $2,500 to Toys for Tots, to be delivered by Santa"

"This story is a modern day "Miracle on 34th Street." Santa Claus is this customer's legal name and he has been living in the Chicago area for 58 years. Mr. Claus has been a Washington Mutual customer for a little more than a year. In addition to his pastime as "toy delivery expert," Mr. Claus owns a construction company and enjoys volunteering his time with church organizations, local schools, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts and in senior centers."


http://newsroom.wamu.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=189529&p=irol-newsArticle_Print&ID=695709&highlight=

Your have to be good all the time.

and she told me why she was glad this teacher told them. Growing up an aunt of hers would help buy and make gifts for my mom and her siblings so my grandparents always told them that this aunt was one of Santa's helpers. She lived Vermont and Santa lived up North so this made sense to naive kids. One day in first grade some kids were talking about how there was no Santa. My mom thought they were playing a mean trick and started arguing that she knew there was a Santa because her aunt worked for him.

It is better for a child to learn the truth in a setting where they will not be subject to that amount of ridicule. The teacher told the entire class because he was asked in front of the whole class. He was put in a no win situation. They were already at an age when most kids who believe in Santa have doubts and learn the truth. If he pulled the one kid aside then whatever answer he gave most likely would've been later shared with the other students. If he told the kids there was a Santa then how could've very easily been violating the wishes of some parents and kids who knew there was no Santa could've tried to push the issue further. If he refused to answer then the students could've taken it as a sign that there was no Santa.

you can give a non-answer anytime you wish. Most teachers would have done this.
"Why would you ask that question?!" "What do your parents say?" "I know most of you are excited about Christmas, but lets get back to work/our project" Stuff like that.

I'll bet their parents are fretting about the poor disillusioned kids in 'murka tearing the wrapping off their gifts and wondering whether Santa really put them under the tree.

If your kid comes home from the first grade freaking out cause their sicko teacher just told them Santa isn't real, you aren't thinking about starving kids in Darfur.


You think about starving kids in Darfur when they don't clean their plate.

What's gonna happen when somebody tells him there's no God? Or that the president is a nincompoop? Or, that bogey man isn't under his bed?

they have cultural myths they share with their children.

It's interesting that you cited the children in Darfur. Several people on this thread have poo-pooed the Santa Claus myth, and I believe it's no different from any other myth.

Even "the children of Darfur," and how they relate to you, or me, is a construct. For instance, there are some people who believe in staving off global poverty. However, people, at the same time, are against globalism's off-shoring, which drives down the wages for workers in already-industrialized nations. To work out this conflict, one must weigh their dedication to each side.

Each of the "morals," that mix into any system of critical thinking are constructs -- not much different than Santa Claus. If someone believes in protectionism in trade, are you going to jump on their ass, for not sharing their country's wealth with the children of Darfur? What if the person who supports trade protectionism is a laid-off assembly line worker, with three, very cute little kids, who, too, will be disadvantaged. What if one of the kids is very bright, and even though the family makes it, and he or she is well-fed? What if the "disadvantagement" is that the child simply cannot go to college? Why are we giving student loans to American children, when the children of Darfur are starving?

Why did you decide that anyone should be concerned about the "children of Darfur?" Are they your responsibility? If so, why? Are they any more or less your responsibility than a underprivileged American child? If so, or not, why? Do you then support free trade, to equal everyone on the planet out? If you're an anarchist or a left-libertarian, do you believe that it's the collective responsibility of the 300-million population of the United States of America to save the children of Darfur? Who does that? A giant state that seives money off of its residents for foreign aid? Who decides what the worth cause is? Is a worth cause removing a brutal dictator from a foreign country? Is the worthy cause selling their country to the highest bidder, and bringing in American corporations, so they can live like us? Is funding their universal health care a noble goal? Is rationing their oil, so 300-million people can maintain their lifestyles a noble goal? What if they HAD to do it, to keep American children from freezing? I mean, the children of Darfur won't have to ever freeze, right?

I don't expect you to answer these questions, and it would be absurd to try -- and when you got right down to it, your answer would be "I don't know." Because you DON'T know, any more than a child knows whether Santa Claus is real, or not, or the most feverent fundie knows whether or not we're all going to be segregated into teeth-gnashing or clouds, when we die. Morals are constructs. Nations are constructs. Race is a construct. "Reality" is a construct. "Right" is a construct. "Underprivileged" is a construct. "Money" is a construct. "Education" is a construct.

The question of whether or not Santa is real actually, on a deeper level, figures into all of the belief systems we choose to, or don't choose to buy into. It doesn't matter if Santa Claus is real, or not, even if we believe the "facts," to be true. Most "facts" are constructs. You cannot say that the "children of Darfur," are mine or your responsibility, with any more certainty than you can say "Santa Claus is not real." To assign responsibility for the children of Darfur is to subscribe to a constructed belief system about poverty and altruism.

I'm not harshing you -- and this post isn't necessarily directed at yourself. It's just my general feelings on the Santa Claus subject.

As you say, "I don't know". But, I'm of an age where "not knowing" is just fine. Or, as Alan Watts put it, "you finally realized that there is nothing to realize."

My real feeling on the whole Santa Claus, Xmas, crisis, is that it's not. Nor am I in the least worried that little Chuckie or Buffy will suffer terrible trauma when told that the existence of Santa Claus is in doubt. I have a sneaky feeling they'll get over it.

However, I do care about the starving children (adults) in Darfur and elsewhere. This probably due to being a homeless, hungry kid some long years ago. Who knows? There could any number of fascinating psychological reasons why people care about other people. I've long since given up worrying what motivates me.

Philosophically speaking, none of any of this, Santa Claus, starving children, politics, or philosophy itself, matters in the slightest bit to well-being of the universe. As old age adds to my aches and pains and wisdom, I've come to realize that I, and the rest of us, are pipsqueeks with overlarge egos demanding recognition by an indifferent universe or, if you prefer, "God".

I am an Anarchist. Not because of any great political motivation, but out my (probably unrealistic) empathy for the powerless and my conviction that power, and the desire to gain it, is destructive.

The nice thing about "not knowing" is that it allows me the freedom to look at things from "my" perspective (whatever motivates it), without fretting about whether it's proper, politically correct, or acceptable to anyone.

So, Merry Christmas, and may Santa bring you lots of goodies.

children will feel well fed and sleep better, I'm sure.

Most of us do.

class.

instrument, or reading music or inform them of John Lennon's life and influence.
But dash their thoughts of Santa, what a waste of time and influence over kids.

We MUST keep the lies and myths alive...for the children!

:grr:

My son to today will not say Santa doesn't exist. Santa is the first person other then his parents who didn't know him and loved him and knew exactly what made his little heart sing on Christmas morning. He also globally loved children and thought they were special.

Even when mom couldn't afford much and had coats and socks for christmas, Santa pulled though for the kid gift. Santa has seen my son though a bunch of rocky christmas's and he certainly appreciates him. He loves making cookies and setting them out with milk. It's quite the ceremony.

:eyes:

It's just sad to read something like this, right after the story about polar bears drowning en masse because there is no more polar ice left.

Priorities people!!

....at least regarding the climate...film at ll... :eyes:

Santa is going to have to move into a loft in Soho.

Well, the elves will like the nightlife.

Poor polar bears. I am so worried for my child - I have started berating myself for being so selfish to have one. You would think I should have known better after the cold war. I went through the "nuke alarms" in school and swore I would never have kids.

care about global warming or the poor drowning polar bears. We are all that limited.

The day just eventually came when I knew the truth. It isn't about truth or honesty or reality. It's about the imagination. It's about letting your mind ponder the imponderable. Just as nobody ever told me that there was no Santa Claus nobody ever explained to me exactly how Santa did the things he did. I figured all of those things out for myself. To this day it pisses me off when I read a story or see a movie that gets those details wrong.

When the day came that I finally realized the truth, I didn't resent my parents for lying to me, I appreciated the fact that, for those first twenty-three years, I was allowed to know that this terrific fantasy world where dedicated elves dutifully and masterfully created all manner of exotic toys and flying reindeer flew a jolly fat man around the world in a single night to deliver those toys existed. And, of course, there were always other kids who tried to destroy the belief. They were usually the class bullies and I suspect that they eventually grew up and became Republicans.

It's a wonderful fantasy and kids should be allowed to enjoy it for as long as they can. Eventually they do discover the truth and I believe it leads them to the knowledge that maybe, just maybe, it is a good thing to not believe everything that the are told. In that way I think Santa is perhaps the greatest anti-authoritarian figure ever created.

In any case I don't think it is a school teacher's place to spill the beans. Kids this age don't need to be burdened with the harsh realites of the world. They certainly don't need to be told that the world is soon to become an unliveable hunk of rock incapable of supporting life. They need to be kids and they need to be permitted to believe in things that are unbelievable. That being said, once the beans were spilled, it was just silly on the part of the school to try to put the beans back. There is a difference between allowing the myth to exist and out and out lying. The time to tell kids the truth is when they actually come to you and ask the question. That is when you get all sentimental and tell the 'Santa lives in your heart but isn't actually a real guy' stuff. But, much as it occured with me, I doubt that most kids ever have to ask the question because one day they just know the truth.


Chris

Its a horrible thing to think that we are at a place in time that we no longer want kids to be kids. Just because the government pays for the schools doesnt mean that all religions and beliefs need to be eradicated. Wouldn't it be the same if the teacher said there is not God.

:evilgrin:

such deities, I'd say the same of Zeus.

I have been pondering this thread all morning. What a waste of time, huh?

But maybe not. I'm reading two distinct themes: don't lie to your kids vs. it's a lovely myth.

Since I teach creativity I have to wonder whether or not if we were somehow a human anomaly, a culture of absolute TRUTH with no myth, no fantasy, just TRUTH, TRUTH, TRUTH...whether or not the hard wiring in our brains would then not ALLOW us to be creative individuals? And without creativity we're screwed, but although artistic creativity is awesome and important, scientific creativity (like inventing new energy substitutes) is even more vital.

I know that play is the work of the child. A child who does not play does not develop normally emotionally. Maybe belief in fantasy and myth is also important for the ability to elaborate, to be fluent, to be flexible, to be original.

Just a thought as I wait to pick up my paycheck and lock the door on my classroom for two full weeks.


YEEEEE HAAAAAAA!

about truth and creativity.

I think this teacher was wrong. No matter what her personal beliefs, where is her sense of fun and imagination? Perhaps she should consider working with older children.

What would we do without Santa - Father Christmas?http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=23

When I was a kid I believed in him but when a couple of my older siblings informed me there wasn't a Santa and it was our parents that bought our present (not presents like nowadays), I didn't think much of it because I found it weird some old fat white dude would deliver presents to poor black children. Another story is recently my director had told me when her young son found out there was no Santa, he cried so much it made her cry. The father had accidently blurted out there was no Santa. I don't remember what she said how he got over it but I felt so bad for that little boy.

When I was little, my brother told me the Tooth Fairy left me the quarter, took my teeth, turned them into gold, and cashed that gold in for TV sets and air conditioners and record players (it was the '60s) for HERSELF. He made up a little song about how there were lots and lots of tooth fairies -- fat ones, skinny ones, old ones, young ones ... and they were all greedy so-and-so's.

So, I still believed in the Tooth Fairy for a while longer, but I thought she was a capitalist pig.

Just thought I'd share that twisted little story in the spirit of the holidays.

because my parents referred to the Fairy as "he" but I pictured tights, wings, the whole ensemble.

I think it was a positive thing.

I'll bet you and your brother laugh about that all the time. I know I would.:)

... about all the stuff he told me when I was a kid (he was 8 years older, and I worshiped him) ... but I also regularly (jokingly) propose we forgo the annual family beach vacation in favor of family therapy for those long years of being tied to chairs while he was babysitting me, being told he was calling the county offices and having my name legally changed against my will, and being forced to participate in the dystopian secret society my brother formed in our basement when I was 6 years old (don't ask!).

Reminds me of my older sister. She told me when I was a kid about this weed that looks like a flower, it has yellow petals and the center is dark brown. But anyway, she said those flowers watch kids when they walk home from school. So whenever I would pass by one I would look to see if it was looking at me. And I thought it did! LOL. And another time she told me about the tall satellite antennas with the lights that blink at night. When we traveled to my grandma's in the next state, she told me those antennas were watching to see if we were sleeping. I believed that too.:)

will fill the gaping hole left by the Tookie controversy (fingers crossed.)

My heart wasn't broken upon finding out the truth about Santa. Perhaps because I was 40 and under the care of a really good shrink at the time.

Seriously, kids aren't traumatized when they figure it out. Kids are smart enough to recognize the Santa mythology as a form of play, something that comes as naturally to them as breathing. And perhaps it also teaches them critical thinking skills: it it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

about Santa, but I don't understand. I tell my kids fairy tales, make a big deal about Santa, and also the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny. My oldest has known about Santa since she was three, but she figured it's more fun to pretend. My youngest, at 7, is starting to ask me pointed questions, which I answer. I personally loved believing in Santa when I was little, and although it made me a bit sad to find out the truth, I certainly didn't hate my parents for playing such a fun game. My kids seem to be unscarred, also.

I figured it out pretty early, but it was fun and magical believing, and then making believe I still did. I'm 41, my sister 36, her kids teenagers, but we still put out cookies for Santa... now we just put out beer, instead of milk.

FYI: On Xmas Eve, my mom used to run around on the roof and jingle bells and yell "ho-ho-ho" when we were kids. Scared the bejesus out of us!

absolutelty opposed to the teacher telling the kids this, just like I'd be opposed to a teacher telling the kisd there IS a Santa (or a God).

What exactly is the purpose of deceiving children into believing the Santa Claus myth?

....consume Consume CONSUME in December and believe in the irrational age old traditions of the season or there's something WRONG with YOU. :crazy:

:eyes:

Raise your children how you choose and the rest of us will do our best in raising ours. OK?

....I chose not to breed...because of the contempt that lies therein...in such a theater of the absurd as this...who could blame me for being so unselfish?! :eyes:

to interject him or herself into a family matter.

I'm an atheist, and my kids don't believe in Santa - but that's our choice, not some teacher's.

Why does there have to be a "belief" in the fairy tale? Isn't the universe full of wonder as it is? Isn't reality constantly revealing its unimaginable complexity and staggering beauty to us -- if we're paying attention? Why do we need belief in fantasies to inspire a child to notice all of that?

Yes. Imagination is important. Why not instruct children on the proper exercise and use of this most powerful aspect of human intelligence? Fantasy and imagination aren't the same thing. Fantasy is the content, imagination is the mental faculty that invents metaphorical fantasies as a form of non-linear thinking. Teaching a child to believe in the content of the fantasy rather than enjoy and learn from the play of imagination is a useless and subtly misleading exercise. Basically, I see now reason to defend any faith in obvious fantasies. Nothing is lost if the child's world of active imagination is encouraged and developed as the powerful and natural faculty that it actually is.

Arguably, imagination is the source of genius.

In this day and age especially, we don't need the road-bump of belief in fairy tales for the world to be wondrous and magical, because it already is. Hey, ask Carl Sagan!

:-)

Citizen J.

:thumbsup:

her classmates tell her he doesn't exist. When she asks me, "Dad, is Santa real?", my response is, "what do you think?" She always says "I believe in him." I'm sure by next year she'll have changed her position. It just happens. My 12-yr-old stopped believing when he was 8.

On the other hand, both of my kids are well aware that Jesus is a mythical figure.

Toddlers and young children are very imaginative. Creating a rich environment, through fairy tales, appropriate toys, art supplies, pretend play, etc, to foster imaginative thoughts and play is a healthy and respectful way to allow the child to develop at their own pace.

As children reach the age of 5-7, depending on the child, they begin to move out of the dream like state into a more concrete cognitive stage.

Children are NOT little adults and should not be treated as such.

Every parent and teacher should be familiar with child developmental stages so that they can scaffold and faciliate their child's emotional and intellectual growth.

This teacher should not have assumed that every child in her class was at exactly the same developmental point by announcing Santa is not real. Certainly, it is not going to damage the children, but it was an insensitive, disrespectful, and inappropriate move.

I have to disagree.

My folks always told me that Santa was made up. I spent years biting my tongue when other kids my age bought into that crap. How stupid were they?

I've never looked back and wished that I'd been deceived in my early years.

Did she deliberately tell them because maybe she's a Fundamentalist and wants to rob children of the Santa Claus myth so she can push the Jesus myth?

Did she deliberately tell them for some other reason?

Did she tell more by accident, stumbling into an admission that Santa Claus doesn't exist, and then deciding to speak directly and honestly?

an influence in a kids life is by dashing some kids innocent beliefs.
What a chump, this is pathetic, his words carry no wieght with anyone
else who knows him so he figures, I'm going to move these kids with this.
HE IS A LOSER, that's why

If he did that to one of my kids, I'd be having a little talk with him, face to face, before the school is let out for christmas break.

level that this guy must be working on. There is no plausible reason for ruining a kids Holiday
Season. It's quite weak

The article says little. Do you have another link?

If that's what he wants to do with his influence over children than it's really weak.
That's all, that may not even be the truth of the story. But come on give me a break,
what is gained by his statement, if it's true.

none of the deliberate motivations I can think of are good ones, but some of them are more pernicious than others.

I suspect a religious motivation (especially since the teacher was not disciplined, an interesting detail), but others have immediately assumed that the teacher is some kind of militantly rationalist idol-smasher (as they imagine themselves to be perhaps).

I'd like to know why, what was the motivation? And I think we should know before spouting off.

nonstop about Santa instead of doing their fucking work.

called "Holy Shit It's Christmas" It is a catchy little tune. Perhaps it is time to play it for this teacher.

I think it is a freaking shame this happened. No need to take the innocence from a child before their time. My daughter is in 4th grade and only she and two other boys in the class know the truth about Santa Claus. They are not going to tell their classmates any different either. They don't want to be the bearer of bad tidings.

What the hell was that teacher thinking?

Talk about ammunition for the "war on Christmas" crowd.

Note, however, that this happened in a lily white, red city in a red state.

don't bust any bubbles with your inconveinient "facts"!

"the children"
"the troops"
the "president"
the "american people"

in my opinion, would be a little lesson and exercise in differing beliefs.

I was the kid in first grade who told the other kids that Santa wasn't real. I wasn't trying to be mean, I was just telling the truth. I actually got into trouble for telling the truth. I remember asking the principle if I was suppose to lie. I think it put her in a very bad situation because then she gave me this whole spill on how the other kids still believed in Santa so I should be nice and let them believe. I did, but I also remember thinking about how stupid all those other kids were as well. I know it wasn't a nice thing to think, but I was only 5 or 6.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer and I think it is fun to still believe in magic as long as you can. I will say that if you teach your child to believe in Santa that you shouldn't be shocked when they get older and go to school that they are going to hear that Santa isn't real.

I was heartbroken when my second grade teacher--a nun--told us there was no Santa. I was angry with my parents as well for lying about it.

Religious types(fundies)do not get into the whole Santa myth thing.

I personally think the myth makes too many children feel bad especially when the family's economics are not as high as one of their little buddy's. I also enjoy seeing the joy on a child's face Christmas morning.

I tell my children the truth when they ask and officially make them Santa's helpers. I tell them that it is a tradition. Then we talk about all the different "Santa" figures in different cultures and religions that led to the character we call Santa Claus today. They then have a duty to give someone a gift signed by Santa. It makes them feel grown up and appreciate the myth for what it is. One of my children hid it until he was 8 because he thought he would not get presents if we knew he knew. I think most kids appreciate what they get more once they know the truth.

All kids are different though and while some will be heartbroken, others will be relieved not to have some magical fat guy watching everything they do for weeks before the holiday.lol

Jesus Christ, does anyone here remember how they felt when they heard there was no Santa Claus? It felt like shit. I never understood why my parents had to deceive me. The worst part was, we grew up very very poor and I used to think that Santa didn't like me because the presents he would deliver to me were meager compared to some of the more affluent children. I grew up just south of New Orleans and even there the racism wasn't as bad as the classism. Those who were wealthy ruled those who were poor and you got a face full of it every day, even as a child. One Christmas, the toys that my parents were saving for my brothers and sisters and I were stolen about a week or two before. I, the youngest, learned that Santa wasn't going to be able to bring me the Hot Wheels Racer set that my parents had assured me Santa had for me because, frankly, there was no Santa- it had been my parents scrimping and saving all along to buy me what I wanted. They had no money to replace it. There was no deus ex machina to save the day.

Well, I'm kind of glad that happened. I assumed the toys came from Heaven or something so why the hell think small when it comes to Christmas toys, eh? That's where the bullshit comes in. The American version of Santa Claus has very little to do with good will- it's not his fault. Father Christmas has been raped like every other positive icon that exists in our culture so as to promote consumerism.

Think about this- a child asks for a toy for Christmas that the parents cannot afford. If the parents do NOT get they toy for their child the child feels that they have been bad because as everyone knows, Santa gives gifts based on the goodness of your heart. What a way to fuck up a poor child's inner worth. As I said, I am now quite grateful for that theft- it made me understand just how much my parents had to put on the line to support a family of five children.

I will love the look in my son's eyes when he sees the gifts that Santa has brought him for being a good boy. However, every Christmas I think of the poor kids who are growing up in this country who are going to have to wonder what the hell they did wrong to get such a meager gift from Santa.

I also believe that Santa is a great way to indoctrinate children into the mechanics of a faith-based religion, but that's a whole 'nother message.

PB