Should a Teacher tell a bunch of First Graders there is no Santa?

This question is based on a thread about the first grade teacher who told a class room of first graders there is no Santa. Some of the posters felt the teacher was wrong to do so--that it is up to the family while others praised the teacher for telling the truth. What do you think? Should a teacher tell first graders there is no Santa Claus?

the role of the child's parents

The source for most kids learning that there is no Santa, the other kids in school.
Teachers should stay out of the issue altogether.

I believe I learned about that from other friends at school and faked it another two years. ;) Plus, my brother was still young and belieiving in Santa Claus.

parents can be vicious

But I disagree that children should not be taught about various myths and beliefs of different cultures. Certainly, it should be done in the appropriate courses, such as a Social Studies class or a Cultural Studies class.

Children should be taught about various cultures but not taught that beliefs are facts. It is possible to do that.

Santa is the 'God' of materialism. Even when kids are pretty sure there's no Santa, they continue to proclaim a belief under the assumption that they'll benefit materially. Not only does this initiate kids into the politics of hypocrisy, it trains them in deceit and erodes their trust in parents -- other than as a quid pro quo.

I did that. I found out about Santa Claus when I was in third/fourth grade or so from friends I believe and I continued to "believe" so I could get some extra presents and plus my brother was still young too. I didn't want to spoil it for him. ;)

I'm still traumatized.

My brother told me about Santa and where babies come from. I've never been the same since.

Maybe that explains the obesity epidemic?

I wasn't told these things at the same time. My head would've exploded.

of being able to sneak into homes and begone.

The fact that Santa's handwriting was exactly the same as my mom's, the cutesy tones of voice adults used when discussing him, somehow I always knew that he wasn't "real", but I didn't care. I liked the myth and played along.

kids are certainly more willing to suspend disbelief. Probably if you cornered a first grader and asked them to think about it, they would realize it's all hokum. But they don't HAVE to think about it, they don't HAVE to know the truth. They are just kids. I don't mind leaving them that way until third grade.

the handwriting with my mother and Santa. :shrug: I guess I was too excited to think about it back than. Now of course you can see it clear as day.

Very sharp and inquisitive in some ways, and slow in others. I used to find my Xmas presents hidden in closets weeks or months before Christmas and shake them to figure out what was in them at age five, according to my mom...

My son is the EXACT same way.

I can see a teacher in middle school doing it if a sweet sap of a student is being picked on for being a Santa believer, but this is inappropriate for little kids in first grade.

Teachers shouldn't be in the business of lying -- and, in cold terms, when we tell kids that a fat man in a red suit brings them presents via chimney (but only if they're good), we're lying, or, at the very best, propagating a relatively benign childhood myth.

That said, teachers shouldn't be in the business of undermining parents, either, so she should keep her opinions to herself.

(For instance, an atheist teacher who firmly believes God is a fiction shouldn't tell his/her students that, nor should a fundamentalist Christian teacher tell his/her students that Jesus saves.)

Growing up, I was Jewish, and I never believed in Santa. I was, however, instructed that there were kids who did, and I shouldn't spoil the secret. I think that's pretty much the way to go.

LeftyKid knows Santa's imaginary because I don't believe in lying to kids. We're willing to respect other people's traditions and I expect other people do respect my family's choice to opt out as well.

and should be a don't ask don't tell. What other topics should be off limits? Or, where truth should be obscured, or ignored?

I am rapidly giving up hope, what little hope I had, for a return to rational thought anytime soon in our society.

Teachers ought to strive to provide their best estimate of the truth.

because either way, it's religion in a public school.

If a teacher gets asked if there is a Santa, I don't think he/she should answer either. I think presenting the "Yes, Virginia..." answer, or perhaps a "what do you think?" might be a good alternative.

They won't ask again, I assure you.

However I no longer believe in honest politicians.

...are all more or less adults. Teachers should not be in the business of perpetuating untruths and myths. Santa Claus is no different from intelligent design-- neither have any place in an environment dedicated to learning. And yer little dog, too!

in the younger grades ... a place similar to paul bunyan, pecos bill, and other american cultural myths. but i agree that teachers shouldn't perpetuate untruths, so I don't think a teacher should pretend that santa claus is real ...

They believe the moon is made of cream cheese. Let them be cynical know-it-alls when they hit 10th grade, for now let the kids dream and have wonderful family traditions.

caring view of the world and their peers, when we can nurture and develop the selfish me centered world of the SC retailing congolomerate. Look, its fun while it lasts, but for me, it was more rewarding when the kids learned that SC doesn't go to every home, that giving exceeds receiving. they are going to find out and thats a fact. IMHO, leaving SC behind offers a chance for a bigger, more meaningful Christmas experience that the 'me me me' of SC.

about getting aloing despite different beliefs.

And they also failed to get a lesson in logic about claims of universal non existence.

Most 1st Graders have already stopped believing but if one still believe the teacher should not be the one who tells them different.
Besides, what we told our children was that As long as you believe in the magic, there is a Santa Clause. We also let them know that there was not a man dressed in a red suit that came down the chimney on Christmas Eve.

We want our teachers to do so much, to help develop sound judgement, educate on a variety of topics including sex ed, drug prevention, diversity. But there seems to be a limit and that limit is Santa Claus. this is such a non-issue.

Editorial Page, New York Sun, 1897

We take pleasure in answering thus prominently the communication below, expressing at the same time our great gratification that its faithful author is numbered among the friends of The Sun:

Dear Editor,

I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says, "If you see it in The Sun, it's so." Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus?

Virginia O'Hanlon

Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except what they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The external light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if you did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only faith, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives and lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

What if half the class says, "there is no santa claus" and the other half says "there is too a santa claus", is she supposed to say "I don't know, ask your parents."?

Where does principle and not lying an answer to a direct question intersect the best interests of all the students? How does deflecting or deferring an answer to something "every adult should know" lend itself to maintaining the authority of the teacher/student relationship?

I actually know how to handle it, but in a classroom with a full on Santa war going on, I don't think the teacher was being malicious, and at any rate, it's the truth and she can take that to court if challenged.

Or "Some people believe one thing, some believe another. Let's talk about how we can respect each other and get along even when we disagree."

I agree that a discussion of belief systems can deflect an 'is there a santa' war in class, but the other side of that is that THERE IS NO SANTA. It is not a matter of your belief vs my belief. Why should the classroom perpetuate nonsense?

Let me reframe this a bit. Santa is everywhere. Pictures, guys dressed up, mass media, the classroom, are all saturated with european-christian mythology. We are telling kids that there is a santa on a continuous basis without any regard for non-christians or non-santa believers. We seem to accept this massive barrage of propaganda without question, and yet we are outraged by one instance of the contrary opinion (the fact that THERE IS NO SANTA) being expressed.

don't. And I think learning to disagree in a civil way is an impotrant lesson.

they won't even know it didn't get answered.

I dimly remember something like this when I was a wee bairn - I was probably the evil child that asked the teacher what she thought and why.

Sigh. Guess I've always been a troublemaker ;)

It is one thing for a teacher to volunteer this sort of information, shouldn't happen. But it is also the responsibility of a teacher to provide his or her best effort to answer questions truthfully and honestly. That would be the 'teaching' part of teaching.

Should a teacher tell a bunch of First Graders that there is a Santa?

Something like this:

Child: "Mrs. Wright, is there REALLY a Santa?"

Mrs. Wright: "Ooooh, look at the pretty non-denominational holiday tree!"

Child: "YEA!"

The teacher shouldn't say there IS or ISN'T either.

But the teacher certainly CAN use the question to jump start important lessons about belief and plurality.

The question is not 'do people believe in Santa?' the question is 'does Santa exist?'. And the answer is 'no, Santa does not exist, Santa is a myth that people choose to believe or pretend to believe in'.

The answer to 'do people believe in Santa' is yes some people believe in Santa. The answer to the other question is equally obvious but it seems that we get confused that somehow answering that question violates something. It doesn't.

And "the answer is no" as you say is a poor lesson in logic -- universal negatives cannot be proven. Not for god, not for Santa.

We can establish with reasonable certainty that santa claus does not exist. You know that, I know that, even little children who believe in santa know that santa does not really exist, they understand how to separate the magical make-believe world from reality. Things whose existence would violate what is known to exist: for example fundamental laws of physics, can be reasonably said to be provably non-existent. Unlike saddam's mythical weapons of mass destruction, which could exist in this physical universe, santa cannot, and thus is provably non-existent.

What I cannot believe is that the assertion that santa does not exist is debatable, but here we are.

"We can establish with reasonable certainty that santa claus does not exist."

Prove it.

I see the kids aren't the only ones that can learn a lesson in logic.

(Incidentally - and this is a freebie for you - things that violate fundamental laws of physics are not KNOWN to not exist - they are tentatively believed not to exist. That's a scientific principle, and the reason "laws" are not properly used in science any more.)

I can't believe there is even a debate about this.

Let children have a childhood for chrissakes.

Soon enough they will grow bitter and negative and cynical and turn into GD posters here on DU.;-)

What is a teacher to do? Lie, or tell the truth, or run away?

Telling children fairly tales and allowing them imaginative thoughts and play is respectful of their normal development. Every child moves out of the magical years at some point and it's important to respect the child's developmental stage and allow them to move out of it on their own. Usually, children move into less imaginative state around 5-7.

The teacher could have said something like, well, 'Santa is about beliefs, he is real in different ways to different people and for others, he is not real in any sense.'

There are ways to be respectful of people's beliefs without convuluting them with facts.

to say, you should talk to your parents about that. I'm sure other things come up often, where a teacher directs them to discuss it with family and avoids opening up a dialog. Sex edu in the very early grades, for example.

"what do your parents say",draw pictures, write a story, go on to teaching math or whatever it is time to teach. As an adult teacher, your job is to teach and that doesn't mean you have to answer every question, but can say "lets move on, back to spelling, reading, whatever" or...

Use it to start a discussion of what would you give to whom if you could do so unobserved and the receiver never learned who you were. We became Santa-helpers in our house when my child was quite young. He didn't know where the bulk of stocking goodies came from, but knew that I, and he, got to help put things in and the person whose stocking it was wouldn't know where it came from. Alturistic anonymous giving.

Has anyone started a topic here of what does "santa" mean to you?

shouldn't - Is there a god?

With regard to matters of belief, there are valuable lessons to be taught about disagreeing, about critical thinking, and about plurality.

Even from a very young age, I told my kids that Santa is not real in the way that you and I are real, but that Santa is a very good thing to believe in because it makes people happy, so let's believe in it anyway. I didn't want to outright lie to them, but saying that Santa doesn't exist is kind of a lie too, since it exists very vividly in the minds of millions of people, and makes a lot of kids happy.

We could just as easily give our kids all their presents with just "from Mom" and "from Dad" on them, but it seems a little more magical to have a few with "from Santa" on them. Most kids know on some level that Santa belongs to the world of imagination, and they know by our cues that we also know it, but they are saddened when we refuse to play along.

Make-believe is important for kids and this is an extension of that. The teacher must be an awfully cynical person.

I think that the principal should have a talk with the teacher about being a little more sensitive about the feelings of small children, that letting them have a few moments of magic in early childhoood is not a bad thing, but I don't really think there is any case for a real reprimand here, since the teacher technically did nothing wrong.

I'm an atheist and I think it would also be wrong for a teacher to tell a room full of kids of mixed faiths that "there is no God". It's all a matter of opinion, and teachers need not be pontificating about it.

Somehow Santa seems like a similar case.

I had an experience at thanksgiving where my niece knew the story of a car accident I had....nothing serious, but I was driving her mother and my brother home from the airport on the occasion of her meeting the parents for the first time, so it's a story. Anyway, it struck me that the kids were finally old enough to be told this sort of mildly embarrassing story as if they were adults.

I would tell them about the flying spaghetti monster though.

how Christmas is about the birth of our Lord and Savior. After all, you can't lie to kids, right?

I don't think its appropriate for a teacher to say "Yes God is real" or "No God isn't real". Whether one believes that God is real -- and indeed each person's concept of what GOd is -- is a matter of personal belief and/or faith. The best answer that I can think of is that the teacher should say that it is for each person to decide for themselves.

onenote

you need to discuss with your parents."

...was a fraud.

I went to school learning the version where "noble European settlers" spread out over the land, occasionally grappling with other Europeans over the land, and befriending the "good Indians" and warring with the "warlike Indians". It was all presented as though the Europeans had some legitimate right to be here. When I got older and learned on my own that Europeans had in fact come into this land on a genocidal rampage to steal this country, it was a bit of a disappointment.

Santa was no biggie.

My guess is that the tykes will survive either way.

So that the emotional rollercoaster makes us all dizzy.

you are asking someone to lie

or spin or dodge, at the least

supposed to address.

This teacher foolishly passed on a golden opportunity for a lesson in respecting others and differing beliefs.

the question was about the reality of Santa.

Just like if a kid asked about the reality of gods.

And if they were older it would have been a great chance for a logic lesson, about the impossibility of proving universal non existence.

it really is a commandment.

we better not discuss this anymore because children could be reading this thread. loose lips sink ships!

:sarcasm:

is no more worthy, and probably less important, than the opportunity for a little growing up when a child learns there is no SC, and that there is more to Christmas than selfish wants. Why would we want to delay an opportunity for our children to take a step forward? To allow them to continue to believe in the retailing mythology of Santa? What a great time to help them understand that SC doesn't come to every childs house, that you sometimes have to give, its not all about receive. I don't think that "letting children be children" is lost when help them learn.

Santa is an important part of many children's family traditions. First grade is the age of imaginary friends, magical things, and lots of fun dreams. I question the professionalism and intent of a teacher who would do that. It's wrong.

to tell them.

It's only the job of the parent(s). Imagine the situation the parent(s) would be put in when the kid(s) got home.

In the spirit of xmas, terminate the non-believer.

If the teacher were Jewish, should she make all the kids in her class convert to her religion? If she were a lesbian, should all her kids have to be gay?

These are all personal choices that each person makes on their own - including whether or not to believe in Santa Claus. She had no right telling them that he doesn't exist - and she didn't have to lie either.

Poster after poster here confuses 'believing in the santa myth' with 'santa exists'. Children understand the difference. Adults are confused. You can believe in the tooth fairy, santa, the flying spaghetti monster, and still understand that they do not exist in this world. At least children can. We, from the postings I have seen here, have lost that capacity.

as they get older. I think it is harmless to believe in Santa. I believed in all sorts of things when I was a kid -- I believed fairies hid in the trees, elves, monsters, etc. I can't imagine my childhood without that imagination. It would be like being.... an adult. Oh joy, add another 10 years of adulthood onto life.

We barely pay these people, let's give them some leeway.