What do you say to people who believe....

that if you've done nothing wrong, you should not be worried about having your phone tapped,
your house invaded and searched, etc.?

Personally, that seems like the world view of someone very young, or someone who just doesn't
get out much. I'm old enough to know that even well meaning people make mistakes and abuse
power when they have it. And God knows, the Bush Adminstration is not well-meaning.

let Darth Cheney's energy meeting minutes out in the light of day. How f*cked up is that???

talk to your lawyer about rights when your brought up on false charges, oh wait thats right under Bush, your labaled as a terrorist and have no rights to have legal counsel.

It's just like the line; "We had to invade Iraq because of 9/11". They can't really believe that intellectualy. It's just that they can't justify their position, and they think it sounds good. They're being disingenuous.

with a group of colleagues and being pegged as "persons of interest" because the one eavesdropping on our shop talk had NO POINT OF REFERENCE to realize we were not druggies, rather MUSICIANS discussing a type of BAMBOO we use to make reeds. Nor did that person notice we were all carrying instrument cases.

Randomly collected info is only as good as the interpreter. Taken out of context it's WORTHLESS and DANGEROUS.

It's the fear and the need to believe they are being kept safe.

9/11 shown over and over on TV and imprinted deeply did change everything for some people.

We'll hear the lines that his job is to protect us, we did stop some bad people, we have to stop bad people ad museum and we'll know he is trying to use fear.

But it still does work on some people, though fewer with time.

He's back out full force now in his new campaign as trustworthy in touch protector of America.

May the truth be revealed. May he fool no one.

Sadly.

to ask themselves who is making the determination of what is right and what is wrong? If this person does or says something that is deemed wrong, but they don't know it, are they ready to face their punishment? That oughta make their head explode and their tongue wag!

and trust King George to do the right thing.

Sound familiar?

It angers me that anyone would be able to do such a thing and I don't have anything to hide. I am afraid because I feel if they can spy they can make it appear as if I have done something wrong, they could set me up in whatever way pleases them. It really is an evil thing, I don't understand why so many people can't get it that Bush is EVIL. I wonder what it will take to get them to see.

... you can't say ANYTHING to these people. If they honestly think it's all right for the government to do these things, they are not mentally competent enough to understand any argument to the contrary.

Or you could just go along with them - and mention that you've seen 'government types' going through their mailbox when they're not home, and checking out the telephone hook-up to their house.

Then look shocked and say, "You're not UP to anything ILLEGAL, are you?" Then walk away with a fearful look on your face, mumbling something about 'not wanting to be associated' with someone who is obviously under government surveillance.

in our schools and universities."
Now our nation, the world is doomed to repeat the most horrid aspects of history and few will even realize it's a rerun. I think my eggnog is curdling.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

that safety is everything. They seem to feel pretty unsafe in the world, and of course
Bushco fans those flames constantly.

I love that quote, by the way.

themselves into thinking they're patriotic. I've found that the Franklin quote nearly always leaves them at a loss for words.

relatives. They don't see it as anything that will ever happen to THEM, cause they aren't doing anything wrong, and even if it did, it's so abstract that they think it's no big deal.

My family here in Oregon all know individuals who have actually been impacted by the loss of our rights. I live right around the corner from Brandon Mayfield. I've been regaling them with stories about my friend's and acquaintances personal stories -- things that are happening to real people who are no different from them.

I don't know if it makes any difference in their opinion, but it does shut them up for a while.

I hate to reveal my ig'nance, but who is Brandon Mayfield?

illegally detained by the FBI because they said his fingerprints were found at the scene of the Madrid train bombing.

You say: "Big Brother is watching, and that's okay with you?"
You ask them why they want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship where the government can spy on, search, detain and imprison anyone they want without ever having to make a case before a judge that that person is a threat to society. If that's what they want, they should go live in North Korea.

Eventually everyone does something wrong, or something "suspicious". One thing history should have taught them about governments is that if they can monitor/search you without restriction, they can find something to charge you with. People who live in situations like that ALWAYS LOSE THEIR FREEDOM TO SPEAK FREELY. They always must worry something they say can be interpreted as a crime. The government cannot be given that much leeway.

Do they really want the government monitoring their activity all the time without probable cause? Did they ever think about why the founding fathers insisted on the Fourth Amendment?

Would these people be OK with it if I broke into their house, as long as I promised not to do any damage?

The original intent of the constitution was to limit federal power while giving the people broad rights and freedoms. The feds can't do anything that isn't enumerated in the constitution. The people, on the other hand, are given several specific rights, and also the nifty Ninth Amendment, which states that all powers not expressly given to the feds, or the states, are retained by the people. THe framers didn't include the bill of rights with the actual constitution because they thought those rights were obvious. They also were concerned that if they enumerated some rights, people would try to claim those were the ONLY right retained by the people. The constitution says federal power = restrained, people's rights = broad.

Some of the rights actually spelled out in the constitution are the right to say what you want, believe what you want, due process, and the right to be secure in your person and papers. THe overall picture is one of general person freedom and privacy that the feds can't just invade.

I liken it to property rights. A person has a right to own property, to use and enjoy that property, and to exclude others from invading that property. Trespass law says people can't invade your property, even if they don't actually do any damage. It's the invasion of the right to own your property that's the problem. It doesn't matter if someone wants to come into your house for a good reason, or that they promise they won't do any damage. If people could just come in and out of your house, property rights would be meaningless. Of course, the feds (state/police/whatever) CAN come in your house under some circumstances. But they have to have a warrant, based on probable cause, signed off by magistrate. Even with a warrant, the feds are constrained as to what they can search.

My right to my person is certainly more important than my right to my house. The feds are beholden to me, not the other way around. They have to show ME that they have a reason to invade my person, I don't need to show them that they DON'T have to. I don't care if it won't go anywhere because I'm innocent. I don't care that it won't result in me going to jail, etc. It's the actual invasion on my person that is the problem - in and of itself. The feds are required to show ME (and a court) that they have probable cause to trample on my rights.

We have a constitution for a reason.

I especially love this:

The feds are beholden to me, not the other way around. They have to show ME that they have a reason to invade my person, I don't need to show them that they DON'T have to.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

:hi:

... that one's government would claim the 'need' to do this, is proof positive that this is FAR from 'a perfect world'"-
Good people have been abused, and facts have been skewed, produced, and twisted to suit the ends of those who wish to dominate and control since the begining of time.-

Having nothing to hide, doesn't mean 'they' won't find something to hate you for- for no other reason than THEIR own paranoia, and desire to control-

Power can be very addictive. And addictions often cause peoples good judgement, and morality to go out the window.

and listen to your conversations just to verify you're a good american. I'll continue to monitor your activity to make sure you don't become a security threat. Don't worry, you won't notice a thing. If you slip up in any way or make unkind remarks about our leader, I will alert the other proper authorities."

Is that what we want here?

:evilgrin:

But with really rabid folks it is sometimes better to specify a dem.... like Hillary, who gets people's blood boiling in any case.

search warrent. Tell them it is a layer of protection against the tyranny of government. You should worry when that layer's been removed. Explain that without the rule of law we would all be living like cavemen. Make them understand that if they can do this illegal act, then what is stopping em from TAKING ALL OUR GUNS AWAY? Ask em that!

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

ask if you would like a sibling going through your room in your private drawers. Would you like that? I didn't like my parents reading my journal or notes from friends even if it was nothing. It's just knowing I have that privacy with my friends. Same with Emails and the phone.

is if they like it when people spy on them taking a shower. How does that make them feel?

Tell them that you will install cameras in their bedrooms. Tell them they shouldn't object, unless they're into that "kinky" sex.... :evilgrin:

It continues to amaze me that we throw billions of dollars Iraqs way to rebuild their infrastructure while ours fall apart. It amazes me that people are willing to give up their freedoms to make sure Iraqis have freedom.

Shoot'em for a stranger, as we say down here. What can you say to someone like that? Just look at them and see them for what they truly are -- food.

That is, my right to privacy and to free speech are natural rights that inhere in democracy, not dependent upon whether or not the government may have a problem with me.

Although I did like the "would it be okay if it were a Dem in the WH." I was thinking about that earlier.

history."

Thant's how I answer them.

Some people believe anybody not towing the party line is the enemy.

I would also ask them if they want to be spied on because they voted republican if a dem wins the next election. Do they want Hillary watching what they do in their bedroom or Gov. Dean listening to their phone conversations (not that they would do that - just pose the hypothetical to them)?

Eventually it will be reason enough that they are acquainted with someone who has.