Why do we have to be respectful of the Pope?

He's a political figure and his positions are often anti-liberal and authoritarian. Why can't we discuss his authoritarian policies and bigoted pronouncements, and why is it OK to cheer on the impending death of Strom Thurmond, for example, but not the Pope?

This is not intended to be a bashing thread in itself, all of the above are factual items - surely that's not bashing in and of itself. So please don't use this thread to bash the Pope.

I'm interested in a discussion about why Catholics on here get to define what we can and can't say about the Pope. Surely he's fair game since he's taken many political positions that are completely antithetical to a liberal POV?

If that's not true, educate me.

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But I don't go out of my way to attack him (well, sometimes I do).

You are very brave to post this, because soon you'll be flamed with no mercy whatsoever. I still don't know why some people think he should be off-limits. I understand there are Catholics here, and most of my extended family is Catholic. I respect them and their beliefs, but as a progressive, as a gay man, and as a feminist, I cannot respect the Church or the Pope.

n/t

and that is why people get pissed, though there are certain conservative Catholics that get pissed even if you criticise on things which are political and that is wrong.

So I'm used to it. :)

Meanwhile, I wonder if the people who are setting the tone and tenor of what we can and can't say about certain political figures, based solely on their religions, have too much power here.

Try pointing out that Holy Joe's actions are similar to Hitler's actions, for example, and you'll be deluged with people who hate people who point out flaws in prominent politiicans who happen to be Jewish.

Yet you can equate Bush's actions to Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, etc. with not a peep from anyone to complain about an attack on Christians.

Are the religious types here way too sensitive such that they throw out their principles, reason and logical thought processes when it's perceived that one of their own is threatened? It seems like it to me.

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For his devotion to his faith, and not much.

which covered up it's systematic abuse of children, that's why people, even Catholics may not respect him!

can I understand why more people don't speak out when the Pope refuses to take action whenever one of his cardinals completely ignores scientific and medical fact. He may not be the one actually (literally) speaking those lies, but when he does nothing to stop it and says nothing against it, then one can only assume that he's in favor of them.

Either that or he should retire.

Can popes VOLUNTARILY resign, or abdicate, or outright quit?

-- Allen

There are many different facets to the pope - and it would be a shame not to also constantly point out his support for more lefty economic policies - he is against laissez faire capitalism, stands with the poor, etc.

So don't bash him wholesale. The right uses him by citing him, we can do the same for our purposes.

Bush or Darryl Worley or those other crazy, xenophobic, renecks in Country!

things that are very important to me.

I attack his positions. I don't attack him personally for a few reasons. One is simple respect for the nearly one billion people who follow him. I disagree with them, but I see no reason to be antagonistic toward them. Another is that the Pope is neither all good nor all bad. I think we can discuss what's bad while recognizing what's good.

Personally, I have little respect for him, but I don't think being publicly disrespectful towards him is productive. NO catholic is going to re-think his/her positions on the basis of a vitriolic attack against their leader. That's human nature.

I think we can politely discuss the issues we have with the Pope and the church without insulting those who are sincere followers.

and we have lot's of Catholics. It depends on the issue. If it is political fine, but if it is just you're gripes about someone's religion then it has nothing to do with the democrats and should be kept off the site. You are also supposed to post this to the moderator section.

and you'll notice a mod has replied without saying anything about needing to move it.

I think it's a legitimate question to those Catholics on the board who seem to come into every thread about the Pope and have a hissy fit is you say anything bad about the man or his behavior or his politics or the doctrines he has promulgated.

so yes it was a question that should have been posed to the mods.

so I'm just here as a participant. What rule was broken?

I read the original question as asking why "we", as people, need to respect the Pope. Not "we" as DU'ers, because I know of no rule that says DU'ers must respect the Pope. I *DO* know that under the new GD rules, pointless flamebait will be locked, but that's true of ALL discussions, not just those pertaining to the Pope.

BIGOTRY

Do not post racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic, anti-religious, or anti-atheist bigotry. Unambiguous expressions of bigotry will be deleted, and will often result in the immediate banning of the individual responsible.

If it is not clear whether a comment is bigoted, we will generally give the benefit of the doubt and assume the least-bigoted interpretation. However, individuals who repeatedly post borderline-bigoted comments will be considered bigots and will be removed.

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view. This will help avoid misunderstandings and undeserved accusations of bigotry.

as a participant, and not a moderator, I see no bigotry expressed in the original post. It would only be bigotry if the default position were that the Pope is worthy of unquestioning respect, and anybody who disagrees is a bigot. I don't think that's the case.

If I asked if Mullah Omar is worthy of respect, it would not be anti-muslim bigotry. As long as mindless, inflammatory attacks are kept out of the discussion, I see no reason why it can't be discussed here.

But, as usual, if you think a rule is being violated, hit the alert button and the appropriate moderators will look into it.

but Cronus has posted bigoted posts. Like his poll the other day that was titled "How long will god keep the pope alive" To me this read that we "stupid" Catholics believe that god is personally intervening to keep the pope alive. Then a bunch of fellow anticatholics pigpiled with death wishes on the pope. In that vein, I said he should have posted the original question in this thread to "ask the mods".

The hardest part of dealing with these topics is trying to accept the fact that that which offends us is not necessarily against the rules.

Fran Lebowitz wrote that "being offended is the natural consequence of leaving ones home." I would expand that to "being offended is a natural consequence of having a modem."

There are dozens of posts here every day that offend me, on a variety of topics. I don't object to them simply because I'm offended. There are in fact VERY few posts on this entire website that wouldn't offend SOMEBODY.

There is no person who ever walked on this planet who is above scrutiny and criticism. I would hope we do so with as much respect as possible, simply because infuriating your opponents doesn't have the desired effect, which is to get them to reconsider their positions.

. If you have a problem with the rules of the board, maybe you should post something ot ask the adminstrators. Why did you become a mod if you think bigotry should be ok on this board?

I still don't know of any rules that requires respect for the Pope.

which were enforced on thread, by someone who thought that thread was against the rules. Why did you become a moderator, if you don't actually believe in it? Why not just hangout on usenet?

and personally, as a participant, I see no violation.

It says no blatant expressions of anti-religious bigotry. I'm not seeing that in this thread.

The rule is NOT against being anti-religious. I am an atheist, and if such a rule were in effect, I wouldn't even visit this site, much less volunteer as a moderator.

I just feel like I'm missing your point. Can you explain it clearly in a few sentences, because I really don't quite understand what you're trying to say. thanks

Ask them!

but I'm pretty sure it wasn't locked with a note saying "DU rules require respect for the Pope."

I'm very sincere.... can you PLEASE take a couple of minutes and express exactly what you're trying to say? I'm honestly trying to understand but I just don't get it.

. Anyway if you don't think a thread with the title I described as flaimbait and an anticatholic insults. I don't know what your problem is or why they made you mod.

if you say so.

You refer to a thread being locked but don't reference the thread. You refer to rules violations without explaining what the violation is, or what rule is broken.

I asked in all sincerity for you to try to explain your position. I wasn't being obtuse or combative. I honestly tried to understand what you were trying to say.

I can't imagine ANYTHING I posted in this thread that would piss you off. I was polite, sincere and open-minded, but you refuse to take one minute to express your position clearly so that I might understand.

You're not interested in enlightening me. You're only interested in trying to pick a one-sided fight. Good luck.

WHAT thread are you talking about?

How can you accuse me of being obtuse if you won't even tell me what thread you're talking about? i'm not a mindreader!

And they made me a mod because I applied. I still don't know what rule you're accusing me of disagreeing with.

Can you PLEASE calm down for a minute and compose some coherent thoughts so we can discuss this like adults?

thread violated the rule, and gave you the specific title of the thread, that was deamed offensive. you just couldn't connect the dots. Not my problem.

and why not just do as I ask and compose three clear sentences in ONE post that summarize your position? It can't be that hard.

Why all the one-line hit and runs? I'm not trying to bait you or fight you - I'm simply trying to understand your point.

on edit:

never mind. I don't care anymore. I've been nice as long as I can, to no avail. Believe what you want, even though I still have no idea what that is.

There are too many reasonable people here to engage in real discussion with to waste my time on something like this.

. I don't have a search capacity and don't want to do it manually. I gave you what was deemed offensive from my memory. What don't you understand? What is there to understand. You obviously don't see it as offensive. The admins did. End of disgussion.

doesn't see THIS thread as offensive. I can't believe you are missing the point, Dookus said he/she doesn't see how THIS thread is offensive.

You
----
and we have lot's of Catholics. It depends on the issue. If it is political fine, but if it is just you're gripes about someone's religion then it has nothing to do with the democrats and should be kept off the site. You are also supposed to post this to the moderator section.
VelmaD
------
and you'll notice a mod has replied without saying anything about needing to move it.

I think it's a legitimate question to those Catholics on the board who seem to come into every thread about the Pope and have a hissy fit is you say anything bad about the man or his behavior or his politics or the doctrines he has promulgated.
You
---
so yes it was a question that should have been posed to the mods.
Dookus
------
so I'm just here as a participant. What rule was broken?

I read the original question as asking why "we", as people, need to respect the Pope. Not "we" as DU'ers, because I know of no rule that says DU'ers must respect the Pope. I *DO* know that under the new GD rules, pointless flamebait will be locked, but that's true of ALL discussions, not just those pertaining to the Pope.
You
---
Rules

BIGOTRY

Do not post racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic, anti-religious, or anti-atheist bigotry. Unambiguous expressions of bigotry will be deleted, and will often result in the immediate banning of the individual responsible.

If it is not clear whether a comment is bigoted, we will generally give the benefit of the doubt and assume the least-bigoted interpretation. However, individuals who repeatedly post borderline-bigoted comments will be considered bigots and will be removed.

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view. This will help avoid misunderstandings and undeserved accusations of bigotry.
Dookus
------
as a participant, and not a moderator, I see no bigotry expressed in the original post. It would only be bigotry if the default position were that the Pope is worthy of unquestioning respect, and anybody who disagrees is a bigot. I don't think that's the case.

If I asked if Mullah Omar is worthy of respect, it would not be anti-muslim bigotry. As long as mindless, inflammatory attacks are kept out of the discussion, I see no reason why it can't be discussed here.

But, as usual, if you think a rule is being violated, hit the alert button and the appropriate moderators will look into it.

You then went on too say another thread but you can tell from the first few posts that it would appear that you are talking about this thread and Dookus keeps talking about THIS thread saying that he/she doesn't see a rule violation in THIS thread. You can bring up another thread all you want but this is the thread and topic we should be discussing.

what in the heck are you talking about?

Dookus kept saying nothing IN THIS THREAD was offensive and you kept bring up something about another thread like this is even relevant in this thread.

I thought his original post in this thread was a comment on the treatement his poll got.

The locking of that mildly humorous, and admittedly sardonic, poll brought forward the question to which this thread is addressed.

We're on a new topic now.

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I still have no idea, but it doesn't much matter.

The funny part is I honestly have no idea if Classic_Liberal is pro-RCC, anti-RCC, Pro-Pope, anti-Pope, whatever.

i tried really hard to try to understand his/her position, and asked repeatedly for clarification.

I will NEVER understand why people would spend so much time composing posts without taking the time to clarify simple points when asked to do so with all sincerity.

I am anti offending Catholic DUers for no reason. If someone posted something making fun of muslims for sticking their asses up when they pray, I would hope it would be locked for being flamebait and antireligious. I admit criticism of Mulla Omar on his treatment of Afghan women would be appropriate criticism.

I'm not a bigot and I've never posted a single bigoted post. Dig one up. Go right ahead. Post it here.

I think you were offended, and that's perfectly understandable, but sardonic humor is not bigotry and neither is a Pope deadpool.

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this was kind of offensive

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=552731

Incredibly tasteless, perhaps, but not bigoted...

not to me but I am sure to some people.

But it was also a sardonic expression about how the Pope supposedly has a pipeline to god and brought up teh questions as to how connected is the Pope when he's having to suffer so long with just breathing.

I assert that thread had value as well as being offensive to some. It was intended to have both. It's a controversial topic, but the question remains as to whether or not we *have* to, as people, citizens of the US with freedom of speech, and as DU members, pay respect to the Pope.

I don't think so, even if it offends some people who have some personal investment in his shared religion, we should be able to talk about his policies, and even the merits and demerits of this and any religion without fear of attack and/or censorship.

And I say if we can do a deadpool on Strom Thurmond, or any politician, we can do one on the Vatican's chief politician and policy maker too. But that's a whole other thread :)

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You can even say offensive things about black people and Jews. This is DU, and for obvious reasons that is off limits. This is a bored for people with progressive politics. There is always usenet if you don't like such rules.

It seems all I have to do is *cough* and you or someone like you pops up to stifle my speech. That's just my impression, but how could I possibly address sensitive subjects without offending *someone* along the way?

It's not possible, and I admit I often deliberately take an offensive tack - I'm a satricial cartoonist, you know. I happen to believe that we need to address these hot-button issues and talk about them honestly or we'll just see our group, society, world, continue to polarize and separate. It's the duty, IMHO, of satirists like myself to address these issues and to bring the quirks, hypocrisy, malfeasances, etc., of political and public entities to the fore in discussions. Kind of like the court jester of yore, in fact.

You may not like it, but some will. You may not agree, but some do. And if I say it, you can count on many others thinking the same thing but who are afraid to speak out for fear of being attacked themselves.

You may not like having to defend one who you support, and you may have difficulty dealing with the cognitive dissonance that occurs when someone points out the contradictions in your belief structure, but should you be able to command others to respect your Pope and your belief structure? Personally, I don't think so.

I can understand the frustration that comes with that, but the fact is that the Pope is anti-liberal in his core beliefs and at the core of the organization he heads. He is a political and religious figure and his policies are law in many people's minds and some countries.

You, as a member of the organization, have some choices, but I say one of them is not to silence people who bring attention to the hypocrisy and/or questionable aspects of such an organization, even if the method is disresepctful and sardonic or satirical.

And I say it's also not good and downright un-American to prevent all speech on a given topic just because some *may* or do find it offensive. It's only by addressing these topics on all sides and from all points of view that we can have an honest dialog and come to some understanding.

If you are offended by anti-papal commentary, fine, express yourself and educate, communicate, try to change someone's POV, but what I'm questioning is the rush to censorship or enforced silence rather than to have a spirited discussion that could possibly enlighten all.

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If i think the rules are being violated, I'll complain. I like the fact that this is board for Democratic Politics. You don't like that you can post elsewhere.

You, however, appear to have difficulty understanding me and a few others here. I do wish you would listen a little better or perhaps state your position more clearly because it's almost impossible to communicate with you.

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?

Do it as often as you like.

I searched this thread and haven't seen any posts like "I don't like the rules" "I wish you didn't hit alert on me" or whatever.

Apparently. I can't reach him/her - and neither can anyone else, apparently. I'm used to not reaching people, but I did think that by now someone would have managed to do it despite my "help". :)

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and shoudn't be in the Ask the Mods forum, this is not the type of thread that should be in there. This is question directly related to the people and DUers, this question is clearly not directed towards the Mods and this question is not asking about a policy issue.

I don't think we're reaching, though. :)

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I said it was a question for the mods, and it is. Cronus clearly objects to me hitting alert when the rules are being violated. He objects to the rules. The rules are made by mods. Very simple really.

Cronus clearly objects to me hitting alert when the rules are being violated. He objects to the rules.

I have not seen one post where he stated that, you are jumping to conclusions waaaay to fast. But I am sure and 99.9% of DUers sure that the content in the original post is clearly NOT a question for the mods.

?

he said nothing about censorship.

He said

If you are offended by anti-papal commentary, fine, express yourself and educate, communicate, try to change someone's POV, but what I'm questioning is the rush to censorship or enforced silence rather than to have a spirited discussion that could possibly enlighten all.

what he was talking about when he made his original post. Can we talk bad about the pope without being called bigoted and he is referring to constructive critism and not "the pope is a molester!" I think you are easily confused.

It is a question for people like yourself.....One which, as yet, you have failed to address, with any sort of logic. At first I thought it might be because you didn't want to....after reading 10 of your responses, I've come to a more charitable conclusion...it seems you lack the ability. I guess I can't fault you for that.

RC

... you should probably do likewise.

"If i think the rules are being violated, I'll complain."

Duly noted, apparently. And duly ignored after many attempts at polite understanding, apparently.

speaking as another snarky satirical type, I can't really add much to Cronus' excellent post. And I notice you couldn't address any of his points either.

Guess its that cognitive dissonance thing - a bit trendy sounding, but ah... doesn't it fit.

. So I don't have a problem with them.

I think that's the biggest mental health problem in the world today.

It's what keeps Bush and his type desperately doing anything they can to keep their belief structure in place no matter what the consequences - because to modify one's beliefs in the face of the facts is so painful to those who have invested their lives into their belief structure. Instead, they try to modify the world to match their beliefs and, like King Canute, when they find that doesn't work, they rush to add associative belief structures to mollify the dissonance.

Eventually, the results are well known, death of others, invasions of countries, attacks on religions of others, bigotry, scapegoating, mass killing and ultimately lemming-like behavior.

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.

it was tasteless yes and sorta offensive but nothing beyond that.

It was locked.

for several reasons, I think it was locked because yes it was tasteless. Nice to see an undonated DUer speak for the mods.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You being so damn confused is making me confused.

I replied to that post. Further...how can my response (pasted below) to the question posed, be construed as a wish for the Pope to die?

I don't respect the pope at all but I hope he lives as long as he enjoys living. If he wants to live longer than that....I guess that is up to him. I just wish he believed in affording me that same dignity.

More to the point....are you suggesting our lifespan falls outside the jurisdiction of God? Are you suggesting any Catholic, who believes, such could be the case, is stupid? Apparently so, on both counts...and using the quasi-logic you have thus far displayed, it follows then, that you are anti-God and anti-Catholic....Does it not?

Please keep your blanket, bigoted assertions to yourself. I for one do not appreciate them.

RC

Is abortion political? yes!

Is belief in God political? Only if you live in communist Russia!

Is the ERA political? Yes!

There is legitimate and illegitamit criticism of Catholics.

The RCC has been a political player in the world for a long time, as such it is open to criticism the same way that Pat Robertson, politicized fundamentalists and other religions that enter the political arena are.

When is the last time you heard anyone discussing the Mennonite church here? There is a reason that it doesn't get discussed, because the Mennonite church is very insular and has little influence on the world.

Since he is the head of a sovereign state, he is obviously a political figure... and the Pope has a huge influence that no other religious leader has.

Indeed it is, in these United States. My child must affirm there is a God when he is forced to pledge allegiance to my Governments flag. The currency, which my government has issued, infers I must trust in God. The court house, in which my government is housed, has placed outside it's doors, God's Ten Commandments. A government which seeks to impose an affirmation of the existence of God upon me...by that action, makes belief in that God a political issue. The gentlemen who penned the Constitution added the first amendment to prevent such a mixture of God with politics...It's a shame their religious descendants have achieved its abrogation...Congradulations! Religious folks like yourself have succeeded in making belief in God a political isseu...so what the hell are you complaining about?

RC

so you being silly.

while your at it see post #147.

Now to address your claim that I am being silly. You asserted that belief in God is not political. While in our United States, it should not be, it certainly has become so, for the reasons I stated. The very people who claim they are religiously persecuted in a political fashion, created the monster of which they so loudly complain. They have advocated and are currently advocating the mixing of religion with politics. In abrogating the first amendment of the Constitution they have destroyed the very protections it was designed to afford them. Do you disagree? Whether you had anything to do with this state of affairs, hardly lessens the fact that it exists. If a sparrow flies with the crows and squawks with the crows, he will be shot with the crows.

RC

And I did notice that you were one of the chief instigators in pulling down the Pope's deadpool poll.

How about addressing the issues raised here from your side of the fence? Persuade me. Convince me. Educate me. I'm open to hearing your reasoning.

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The Catholic Church isn't evil because of a few bad people- that would be a gross simplification.However, that does NOT mean that I am going to sit back and be idle if I think someone is commiting a wrong- such as the Pope spreading the word that condoms should not be used and that women should not be priests.
I'm sick and tired of people thinking that just because he's the Pope that that gives him a free pass to everthing he says.
Bottom line: he says something I disagree with, I am going to voice my displeasure. That doesn't make me bashing Catholics, that makes me not being a sheep to the church leadership which has lulled it's followers into a coma. They, we, deserve better.

Many Catholics including myself just ignore what they don't like in his messages. It's always been that way and always will. I wouldn't go out of my way to be critical just ignore him.

Doing nothing sends the message that what he says is ok- and for a lot of Catholics, they are NOT ok with what he has said. I am not Catholic, so I cannot speak for Catholics. But you don't need to be Catholic to realize that some of the things he says are bad not just for Catholics, but for everyone.

Because it is courteous. Not to the Pope, but to a lot of Catholics who post here. I, myself, am one. Speaking personally, I would not try to stop anyone from making a critique of Catholic policies; I am a rotten Catholic, myself, who supports birth control and the right to choose and women priests, etc.

But I have also been taught and motivated and helped by Catholic priests and nuns my whole life. A number are personal friends. It is not the critiques that make me nuts, it is the spitting hatred and vitriol. Please don't tell me you haven't seen it.

Your feelings about the Pope are your own business, and I respect that. Please respect the feelings of people who are Catholics. Don't respect the Pope if you don't want to. But please respect me, and my fellow DU Catholics. It would be appreciated.

but I would remind people it cuts both ways. I've seen a lot of attacks against people who question church policies for partaking in "catholic-bashing". I think that's unfair, too.

Do people bash catholics? of course. Do some catholics bash non-believers? Of course. Both sides have the right to do so, but it's just not very productive.

The respect angle should be played both ways.

but I seen a few threws titled "Stop the Catholic bashing" though.

I can spend an hour in the archives and find you some amazing stuff.

but I don't see how critism of the church is bashing?

Name-calling is.

The original poster of that thread "Stop the Catholic bashing" had quite a few posts removed due to name calling.

THIS is the heart of the discussion. Of course bashing the pope is wrong- as is bashing anyone for that manner. But what about his policies? Some people believe that to attack his opinions is to attack the man, which is wrong.
So what are we to do? Not discuss the Pope and his opinions, many of which are in the conflict of the values held by many DUers?
Again, it is wrong to personally attack him. But I am really amazed at how the Pope is treated to be, well, infallable.

and I'm not one to crow about Papal infallibility, particularly in the face of overwhelming fact. That being said, of course criticism is allowed. How could it not be?

There have been several discussions that have basically broken down to "he's the Pope and you can't say bad things about them". Not bashing, just harsh words for some of his policies, particularly regarding family planning.

Do you, by chance, have those threads handy? If not, no troubles.

Trust me, on your lunch break, take a look in the GD. There will be some juicy threads about the Pope.

But you have hit the nail on the head, Will! It is the utter vitriol that emanates from every post that involves Catholicism that is *the* MAJOR problem, for me. It's like an attack on a family member--they may be wrong, but if you visiously attack them, don't expect me to side with YOU.

I know a few people go over the top. But I think a majority of non-catholics here who question the Pope or Mother Theresa do so fairly and non-offensively. Yet I see you post in every one of these threads complaining about the vitriol and catholic-bashing. I think you're only seeing what you're looking for.

Tell me... how can we express our disagreement with fundamental church policies without you perceiving it as catholic-bashing?

... who get me going, and when anyone attempts to show what what actual policies are, or correct a mis-statement, we are ridiculed, etc. Can you imagine how frustrating that is?

A perfect example is the "The Pope said condoms have holes in them"; the Pope did not say that (some fool bishop did), yet it continues to be repeated as though the Pope himself did.

Another example would be that the Church teaches abstinence and monogamy, yet it is continually stated here that "What, so people should just get AIDS and die?", and similar nonsense. Can you see that to a Catholic, expecting the Church to hand out condoms makes about as much sense as waiting for pigs to sprout wings and fly, then berating the pig because it won't do so?

Another is the "Mother Teresa perpetuated poverty", etc. . I won't go on, because you're intelligent enough to see my point.

I'm like Will, frankly: I believe we SHOULD alter Church policy about human sexuality and reproductive rights, that we should empower women intro the priesthood and hierarchy, that we should recognize committed, same-sex unions, etc., but....

I will defend against what I perceive as bigoted, ignorant attacks on the Church I nonetheless hold dear, warts and all.

:)

But... I don't think it's outrageous for somebody to infer that if a senior vatican official makes a false statement about condoms, that he is reflecting the view of the "administration". It's like Rumsfield saying something stupid - unless Bush denounces it, it's fair to say he agrees.

Also, there *IS* a legitimate discussion to be had about Mother Teresa's life. I understand it's an emotional issue for people who admire her greatly, but I just don't see how ANY disagreement about the value of her works is catholic-bashing.

The political views and actions of the church are certainly debatable. I would hope people could do so respectfully, but as much as you're tired of attacks on your church, a lot of us are tired of being accused of bigotry because we don't agree with you.

I find the flaming-vitriol dressing that gets served up with a great deal of it a bit unpalatable, though. :P

I find it unpalatable, too. But offensiveness is not the criterion by which to judge the merits of an argument. It's a good criterion ot judge the USEFULNESS of the argument, though.

I don't think the Pope or Mother Theresa is attacked any more than most Republicans or a fair number of Democrats on DU. MY preferred candidate is attacked here every day, but I don't take it as a personal insult.

I've asked before, and nobody answers. Is it bashing to criticize Pope Pius XII? Fr. Geoghan? Savanarola? There ARE prominent catholics who wield great power, politically and socially. It's normal that a lot of progressives would disagree with a lot of their positions. I haven't seen ANY thread about the RCC here in recent weeks where people weren't immediately accused of bigotry, and I think that's really unfair.

Hell yes it's OK! Hand me my stones! :P

Actually, one thing JP II has done that he seldom seems to get credit for--- apologising for MANY past mistakes of the Church, Pius XII's policies toward the Jews, etc., being the first to come to mind.

but here's where it gets gray. A LOT of Catholics would be deeply offended by attacks on Pius XII. You've drawn a line somewhere between Pius XII and John Paul II, but others have drawn their lines somewhere else. If questioning Pius isn't bashing, then you should consider the possibility that neither is questioning John Paul II.

And thank you for the polite discussion. You've always a very thoughtful and precise poster.

For me, it's that presence of vitriol that normally determines 'the line' between fair criticism and 'bashing'--- that, and the "You're all idiots if you believe X..." content-free verbal flip-offs some here can't seem to resist. :hi:

At last something substantive was brought up. You could point out his good points in any thread, but do we have to respect the Pope, given his horrendous record on gay rights, adoption, sex education, birth control, the rights of women, tacit approval of pedophilia in his organization, etc.?

I agree you can and should make substantive points about the good that he's done, particularly since people like me who are not involved in your church only hear about the newsmaking stuff.

And in the end, I say that we each have to decide if he is worthy of our respect or not. And whichever we choose should be OK to express, don't you agree?

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I have objected to the vitriol and the "Why won't he make that pig fly?" arguments, etc.--- frankly, those arguments amuse me (in a way)--- I read them and think, "Um, maybe because he's a Catholic PRIEST?". Hehehe... :hi:

Maybe it has to do with being raised in the Church, but I would have no fear in disagreeing with JP II face-to-face--- I just wouldn't start out the conversation with "Listen up, you homophobic, woman-hating, deluded old fart!:... :P

-- Allen

if you were ever going to chime in on one of these threads. Glad to see you did.

I think you're right about DUers needing to respect each other even when we disagree strongly. And you're right that there's plenty of nastiness and vitriol on some of these threads (just like there are in the candidate threads and any thread that has to do with porn).

It's really easy to spot the people that are trying to be offensive. Where it becomes more difficult is when it's more gray. I have come awfully close to being accused of being anti-Catholic in the last couple of days despite attempts on my part to make sure my objections to Church policy were stated in those terms and not as attacks on individuals. It becomes difficult to carry on a conversation when any negative comment about the Church or it's leaders is automatically met with cries of "anti-Catholic bigot". Sometimes we don't feel like some Catholics on the board respect those who disagree with them either. So we all get our feelings hurt and it degenerates from there. It doesn't have to be like this - a constant low level flamewar waiting to erupt.

People of good-will can disagree and still find a way to communicate with one another - Blue_Chill and I finally proved that to each other on the Mother Teresa thread in the Lounge yesterday. I never in a million years thought he and I would have a reasonable coversation but we both took a step back and tried and it worked. (Someone call the Vatican - that might just qualify as Mother Teresa performing a posthumus miracle.) :-)

I'm rambling again. :-) Sorry.

You keep your Church out of my politics and my life...and I shall afford it and you the same courtesy I do the Amish faith and its practitioners. The lack of courtesy some Catholics on this board feel they are subjected to, is a direct consequence of their Church involving itself in politics....Because the Catholic church has made itself a political entity, those of us not Catholic, are compelled to afford it and the individuals of which it is composed, the same level of courtesy we do any other political entity. This is the rub of mixing religion with politics.

I apologize if I sound harsh. The words I have written, as hurtful as they may seem, describe an inescapable reality.

RC

Great post!

I appreciate the compliment. I've struggled to put into words the dynamics of this false conundrum for quite some time....finally, tonight, the lights came on! I didn't even get diarrhea of the fingertips, like I usually do. :)

RC

I respect him only as another human
nothing more nothing less
After all he is just the same as all of us
nothing to worship

You understand that no one worships the Pope.

and to me such a display is tantamount to worship. That's just my opinion, though.

RC

Are you in?

Every time I see a religious thread, I am reminded that we are not.

I just got my contract out and read it and there ain't nothin in there about respectin the pope.
nossir
nowhere
;-)

So ask yourself why there seems to be a large group of people who think otherwise.

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but the Pope never pissed on my cornflakes, so I think he deserves the same respect any other heads of state get. He also is conservative and I am not, but he has never made a move to enrich himself or the Church like other heads of state we know, most notably the one enthroned in the White House today.

but I don't know enough about the Pope and his policies to have an opinion about him.

I just wasn't f***ing sorry when he died.

...must have been a slow news cycle.

http://stromwatch.com - warning, like most of my communications, it is also tasteless, sardonic and satirical.

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I do not adore the Pope and do not automatically afford him "respect" because he represents a tradition in religion that demands this respect for no reason other than it thinks it deserves it. If he wants respect, then he must give it to others and he does not give respect to women. The Pope is a man, and he is a political man, as will be his successor. He represents, as far as I a nonbeliever, am concerned, another political entity that enjoys power over a whole lot of people because most people cannot think through the "god" thing and the "god" mythology. It is too scary to do so and so, they give up their autonomy to a man who they are willing to give this power because of their fear. He is simply, to me, a figurehead of a religion that must keep up it's traditional precepts, whether or not they are beneficial to the human race. He has done nothing that is earth shattering as far as the human race is concerned-as has the Buddha or even Jesus, if one believes Jesus was actually a living human being-he is an old man that some demand others pay homage to simply because he is the leader of a religion, but it is not deserved--I do not see why--there is nothing there that I see that is anything to be adored. The Pope to me is on the same level as my UPS man. If my UPS man lives as long as the Pope, then I may admire his tenacity and that is all that I can say I admire in this Pope. I owe no obligatory "respect" to this undemocratic institution with it's misogynistic tenets. Why would I, when it has done everything it could to squelch the freedom of women ? The Pope is a man that was not elected by anyone other than the other male hierophants in that particular religious system.

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Roll that 18-wheeled baby down the disinformation interstate. :D

in which case, it would suck to die and find the Pope waiting in the hereafter to personally kick your spiritual ass, with God's approval.

BTW, I'm not Christian...but I don't go around badmouthing the Pope, either...

Can you imagine the scene:

You're dead. You wake up in purgatory. A jury of 12 popes must decide your fate. The verdict must be unanimous. Pope John stands up and says, "My brothers in holyness. This man called me an old asshole."

GUILTY AS CHARGED, OFF TO HELL!

its a free country you can dis anyone you please.
some other free folks might use their right to dis you however.

Give me a poor Franciscan who practices liberation theology among the poor in Haiti as following the footsteps of Christ. That deserves reverence - not the descendants of Roman emperors.

Could you clarify?

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Franciscans are a Catholic order who take vows of poverty and model themselves after Francis of Assisi:

http://www.wtu.edu/franciscan/

This is my favorite painting of St Francis preaching to the birds by Giotto:

http://gallery.euroweb.hu/support/viewer/z.html

Liberation theology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Theology

(The current Pope disapproves.)

If you have ever been to Vatican city, you can't help but be struck by thoughts of Imperial Rome and the Pope as the lasting incarnation of Emperor - the vehicle which spread Christianity throughout the Empire.

You only want to point out what you find to be negative. You don't want to discuss the good things the pope has done, which numbers in the hundreds, for example, helping to defeat authoritarian communist rule in eastern Europe. Namely his home country of Poland. All of the goodwill visits around the world, where the pope has preached peace, are to be ignored in your discussion. You did realize the Pope has been against almost every single war during his term?

He's consistent. In his mind, abortion is bad because it kills. War is bad because it kills. The death penalty is bad because it kills.

I do disagree with him on women being priests and abortion. BUT, he's the head of the catholic church. This is the doctrine of the current church after Vatican 2.

I think he's wrong on that. But I'm talking about the positive acts, which are many, that are being ignored. This pope has been around for a LONG time. He has touched a lot of people. Granted, he's not perfect. But no one is.

The pope has never started a war. The pope has consistently spoken of peace towards others. Compassion for the poor.

but I think the negatives outnumber the positives. As a Latin American I can tell you that the influence the Church has in politics is HUGE. For example, in Chile they are currently discussing the LEGALIZATION OF DIVORCE... and yes! the Church is opposed of course.

Something as basic as a divorce... what happens if there's an abusive relationship, or if the couple doesn't get along anymore? They can't get an easy divorce.

Voluntary sterilization was legalized in my country (Costa Rica) a few years ago. Before that time, it was illegal. Well, last week the Catholic Church asked the government to make it illegal again because "it's part of the culture of death". Why is it the Church's business if I want to modify my body to NOT have children?

The Church has opposed several programs of sex ed in schools... once they did it because the sex ed guides included DRAWINGS OF THE HUMAN BODY!

I'm sorry... I can't agree with you. I know the Pope has done good things, but the bad things the Pope and the Church have far outnumber the good ones.

to really impact for a better, more just and decent future world, but he was little more than a dinosaur, chained to a power structure that is corrupt and ignorant. The issues he emphasized the most were the ones that keeps the Church and it's role in the world in the dark ages.

this is not the exclusive domain of the Pope,LOL he cannot take credit for that! and is not something that he alone should take credit for at all! Ugh--it is not his exclusive grand big idea and he must share that with hundreds, or even millions of people, even some atheists are also involved in preserving a peace, for Pete's sake--the Pope did NOT advocate peace all by his lonesome and he was NOT a leader in promoting peace in Iraq.

"...the Pope ...was NOT a leader in promoting peace in Iraq."

He LOUDLY AND CONSISTENTLY spoke out against the war with Iraq! Sheesh!

On edit: Try googling "Pope condemns Iraq war", then get back to me next week after you finishing reading all the links :eyes:.

almost every leader of every mainstream religion spoke out against Bush's attack and invasion of Iraq. It was not the Pope's original idea--many who are not involved in any religion also spoke out about the non justification of the war. FEW paid any attention to their religion leaders--most Americans were gung ho for the war. Since the majority of people in this country are Christian and since according to the polls, ninety percent believe in a god, I would like to know exactly how many are "respecting" the Pope and/or thier spiritual leaders. Few. It appears that most preferred George Bush as thier spiritual leader--and after the fact, after thousands were murdered on a lie, I have yet to see one clergy member come out and call Bush on it. How come? Where are the spiritual leaders and where is the Pope? All smoke and no fire.

showing disrespect to the pope disrespects all the Democrats that happen to be Catholic, politically that is very unwise.

you don't support the war you don't support the troops basically. It is possible for us not to support the pope but not support the other people who are catholic.

we have Catholic brothers and sisters here on DU.

and the Dalai Lama doesn't have much influence in world politics, compared to the pope.

I simply CANNOT respect the Pope. I'm sorry you feel offended, but he is a political figure with much influence in my country and in the world. Just because you think he is off-limits doesn't mean I am disrespectful.

but why must that be a reason to respect the pope?

Just as Buddah is to Buddists. Should I slam the idea of Buddahism because I do not agree? Proverbial speaking.

is not slamming the other members of the catholic church who may be pro choice and pro gay rights. That logic is insane, sorry to say it but it is.

- you don't single out him and other Catholics.

- you recognize that he has done some good things for the world as well as some bad.

- you are respectful to DU Catholics and avoid attacking them or their religion.

I am not a Catholic, but I think that Catholics and Catholicism is being singled out unfairly.

Give me a break!

Isn't that the argument the Bush administration is using right now to attack the media? I think you hit on something there...

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imagine:

"Pope John Paul II has done the following:

1) Accomplishment #1
2) Accomplishment #2
3) Accomplishment #3
4) Accomplishment #4
5) Accomplishment #5
6) Accomplishment #6
7) Accomplishment #7

However, I think that... "


:shrug:

If only you worked in TV news :)

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I am not a Catholic or a christian. I am an atheist. But the Pope does represent kindness and respect for our fellow humans. And he did speak out against the war.

And he gets one pat on the back from me on that point.

But where is his kindness and respect for gay people? For Lesbians? For transgendered people? For intersexuals? For heterosexual unmarried lovers? For the little children abused by his employees? For family planning and those who want to practice it? Where is his respect for the mother who's had 12 children and must have five more due to his policies?

It's the *selective* nature of his "goodness" that, IMHO, commands disrespect, or perhaps even demands it.

Oh dear, here we go. This thread wasn't supposed to be about the Pope, per se, but about whether we *have* to respect him in our posts in other threads...

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Getting long:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=563708

He's a religious figure, not a political one. Most if not all of the criticism about Pope John Paul II is criticism of teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has always had teachings about marriage and sexuality that have been difficult to live up to. We have Anglican and Episcopal churches today because King Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife of more than twenty years to marry a twenty-something woman, and the pope wouldn't give Henry the divorce he needed. If the planet lasts another five hundred years, I predict people will still be complaining that the pope/ Catholicism is "too strict."

There is not one person here who truly wants to discuss the pope's authoritarian policies and what you call "bigoted" pronouncements. None of those who oppose the pope/ Catholicism are interested in the origins of Catholic teachings and policies or in understanding the positive aspects. All any of the pope bashers want to do is criticize the Catholic Church teachings that he supports, blame him for every wrondoing ever committed by any Catholic, and call him names (In a recent thread, the pope was called an "asshole"; in this thread someone said the pope tacitly approved of pedophile priests, an absolute misrepresentation of the man who has said "There is no room for pedophilia in the priesthood." )

Furthermore, I don't think it's OK to cheer on anyone's impending death -- not the pope's, not Reagan's, not anyone's. Reagan did a lot of harm as president but I won't rejoice at his death. I won't weep for him, since that would be hypocritical, but I won't gloat over his death, either, because that would diminish me as a person.

A lot of this is about being a tolerant, civilized human being. Slamming another person's religion -- or a leader of that religion -- is simply rude.
All that Catholics want is the same respect accorded at DU to Jews and Muslims.

How can you say he is not political when the Vatican is a sovereign state?

How can you say he is not a political figure when he has been very outspoken on various issues (the war on Iraq, abortion, etc)?

How can you say he is not a political figure when he was an outspoken opponent of communism?

"There is not one person here who truly wants to discuss the pope's authoritarian policies and what you call "bigoted" pronouncements. None of those who oppose the pope/ Catholicism are interested in the origins of Catholic teachings and policies or in understanding the positive aspects."

As a Latin American, I KNOW what the Church has done here. You obviously don't have a clue about it. I respect your faith and the fact that you are a Catholic, so is my grandmother and 99% of all my extended family. But you can't ask me to respect someone just because you feel I'm disrespecting you.

would you mind if we cheered the death of Protestant church leaders? Would it be ok to cheer the death of evangelicals such as Billy Graham? What about well respected Rabbis? If its not ok to cheer their deaths, then you are a hypocrite. If its ok then you have issues.

Because I would definitely breathe a sigh of relief at the demise of Falwell, Robertson, Graham and a couple of choice cardinals.

-- Allen

Regardless of whether or not we are from the Catholic faith has nothing to do with it. I don't support the pope, because he goes against the very person I am. If I was to support him, then I would be going against myself wouldn't I?

Don't support anyone, or any political party that you truly believe doesn't support you. You have to listen to your heart on matters like this, not your mind.

My decision not to support the pope was a decision I made with my heart. I don't regret the decision, and I know God doesn't look at me any differently because I'm not supporting the pope.

just someone who points out hate in any form along with the rapant hypocrisy.

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as I said in other posts, I live in Costa Rica and the Catholic church has a huge influence here. Methodists, Jews and Muslims don't.

(Catholic church) but it is religion. It didn't put your government in power.

why?

I grew up Catholic but am not religious. I criticise the church. But most of this thread is offensive or maybe would be to you if you grew up with anti-Catholic bigotry like I did in a southern state (I still live there). You grew up in a predominately Catholic environment. Totally different conceptually. Everyone has the right to criticize. Everyone has the right to leave it.

...know there has to be a separation between church and state. In the United States there is no separation between the fundamentalist church and the government. It isn't the Catholic church that makes the rules.

There also has to be a sepatation between the Catholic church as a whole, and the pope. The pope might rule the church, but it is the people who end up believing what they choose to.

I have a friend who grew up in a very Catholic household, yet she has no problems with my being a lesbian, yet the pope does. Well that his own hang up not mine, not my friends, not anyone elses, just his own. You see what I am saying here? You can't blame an entire church for something its leader does, just like you can't blame an entire country for something its leader does. So is it really worth your critism to blame the Catholic faith as a whole?

that is being criticized shouldn't feel offended. If they don't agree with the Pope's position, why feel offended??

I don't blame Catholic faith... I blame the Catholic Church as an institution and most of its leaders in the Vatican an abroad. And the Pope is one of those leaders.

....everything that happens in the world, if you don't like it, then either leave or become an activist and try to change it.

The pope is a politician nothing more nothing less. If you don't like what he does, or says, or what ever, then either try to change it, or walk away. You don't have to subject yourself to anything you don't want to be part of.

That is a lesson I just learnt this morning, because of a not to bright thinkers views, right here on DU.

The church leaders are put there because they have been good and held the popes hand, you cannot blame the entire church on the simple minds of a few. Do you want me to blame the entire United States for the actions Bush* and his regime take? That isn't the way it is done.

It is like the ongoing green debate here at DU. They all blame the entire green party as a whole, yet there were people with in the green party who did vote dem. If we are going to blame the whole for the actions not everyone takes, then we may as well begin blaming the entire democratic party as a whole for supporting Bush* since he stole office.

I offer him the same respect I give every living thing. I don't have to like him or agree with him or support him to do so.

I don't have to respect his office, his choices, his policies, his actions, his words...but I do have to respect the man, to stay true to my own values.

"Does the Pope shit in the woods?" -- Steve Martin, "Wild and Crazy Guy"

Many mainline religions don't support gays (I'm Catholic but I do support gays). The church doesn't preach violence against gays. But its the only religion singled out for all this vitroil. I can't really express myself about this for being deleted for offending others. But no one worries about offending Catholics. Interesting.

has a lot more power than other churches on this issue. It's the only Christian denomination with a single, identifiable leader, with the possible exception of Anglicans.

And most of us DO condemn those religious leaders who condemn homosexuals. I don't think the RCC should be exempt.

its just act up doesn't enter other churches. You don't hear jokes about the other churches on the radio or TV. The country has had a past of anti-Catholic laws. I could go on, but you get the idea.

I for one respect the old guy- you do what thou wilt...

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involvement in imperialism. I understand he's privately telling his cardinals he thinks Bush is the anti-Christ or his agent. I'm not Catholic but I have a lot of respect for this pope.