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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:14 PM
Original message
If you have not already read this Diary on Daily Kos you must read it.
Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 12:11 AM by Pirate Smile
It is chilling.

p.s. I have never told people they have read anything because I find that annoying but I think this is very, very good and very, very important.

Thanks.

Well Kos doesn't care about copyright so I might as well just post the entire thing here.


Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

by Maryscott OConnor
Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 10:08:19 AM PDT
crossposted from My Left Wing



A fascinating and terrifying excerpt of Milton Mayer's They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933 - 1945
Mayer, an American journalist of German/Jewish descent, says of his work:

"How could it -- the Holocaust -- have happened in a modern, industrialized, educated nation ? The genesis of my interest in the Third Reich lies in my search for an answer to that enigmatic question."

I know few people who haven't asked themselves the same thing. The first, most likely hypothesis is that most people didn't know what was happening to the Jews. I may be wrong, but I believe that's been shot down pretty decisively by now.

The following excerpt from Mayer's They Thought They Were Free... provides some pretty plausible clues (the emphases are mine)...

""What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933,between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to be governed by surprise, to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believe that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.

The crises and reforms (real reforms too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

To live in the process is absolutely not to notice it -- please try to believe me -- unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.


"You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the universe was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was "expected to" participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one's energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. "One had no time to think. There was so much going on.""

"Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your "little men", your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about - we were decent people - and kept us so busy with continuous changes and "crises" and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the "national enemies", without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?"

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice - "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end." But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn't, but they might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your "little men," your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing: and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something - but then it was too late."

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes.
That's the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in "43" had come immediately after the "German Firm" stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in "33". But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying "Jew swine," collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in, your nation, your people is not the world you were in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany, could not have imagined.

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.

"What then? You must then shoot yourself. A few did. Or "adjust" your principles. Many tried, and some, I suppose, succeeded; not I, however. Or learn to live the rest of your life with your shame. This last is the nearest there is, under the circumstances, to heroism: shame. Many Germans became this poor kind of hero, many more, I think, than the world knows or cares to know."

I said nothing. I thought of nothing to say.

"I can tell you," my colleague went on, "of a man in Leipzig, a judge. He was not a Nazi, except nominally, but he certainly wasn't an anti-Nazi. He was just a judge. In "42" or "43", early "43", I think it was, a Jew was tried before him in a case involving, but only incidentally, relations with an "Aryan" woman. This was "race injury", something the Party was especially anxious to punish. In the case a bar, however, the judge had the power to convict the man of a "nonracial" offense and send him to an ordinary prison for a very long term, thus saving him from Party "processing" which would have meant concentration camp or, more probably, deportation and death. But the man was innocent of the "nonracial" charge, in the judge's opinion, and so, as an honorable judge, he acquitted him. Of course, the Party seized the Jew as soon as he left the courtroom.

"

"And the judge?"

"Yes, the judge. He could not get the case off his conscience; a case, mind you, in which he had acquitted an innocent man. He thought that he should have convicted him and saved him from the Party, but how could he have convicted an innocent man? The thing preyed on him more and more, and he had to talk about it, first to his family, then to his friends, and then to acquaintances. (That's how I heard about it.) After the "44" Putsch they arrested him. After that, I don't know."

I said nothing.

"Once the war began," my colleague continued, "resistance, protest, criticism, complaint, all carried with them a multiplied likelihood of the greatest punishment. Mere lack of enthusiasm, or failure to show it in public, was "defeatism." You assumed that there were lists of those who would be "dealt with" later, after the victory. Goebbels was very clever here, too. He continually promised a "victory orgy" to "take care of" those who thought that their "treasonable attitude" had escaped notice. And he meant it; that was not just propaganda. And that was enough to put an end to all uncertainty.

"Once the war began, the government could do anything "necessary" to win it; so it was with the "final solution" of the Jewish problem, which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its "necessities" gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany's losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."



It won't come in the same form. It never does. But it's coming. The lure of fascism is too powerful for men like the ones currently pissing all over our Constitution.

Probably won't be the Jews. Maybe Arabs. Maybe gays. Maybe "libruls." Who the fuck knows? It almost certainly won't be recognisable to most people until it's far too late.

If we let it happen.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/12/20/12819/467#412




Edit to add - we need to send this to EVERY member of Congress.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Pirate Smile, your name is enough to get me interested.
Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 11:22 PM by babylonsister
But I just started reading this. It's unreal, powerful, sad, scary, all
the things you posted it for. :-(
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Awww. You're a sweetheart.
:)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's happening again only
everyone is too busy or too concerned about the proper greeting to see the signs for 5 years that have been leading up to that little dictator getting on the air and saying ..yes, I've been spying on Americans..and I'm not going to stop.

Tip of the Iceberg as the saying goes.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
59. And that's how they do it. Use Faux News to put out the "Talking Points"
and they spread everywhere even here to DU where there have been too many posts to count about what O'Lielly said about Christmas.

We are complicit when we give into posting about what O'Lielly says, thinking that somehow we are counteracting his evil memes by airing them in
discussions. But, the focus becomes the O'Lielly meme when perhaps ignoring him would be best? These distractions by the right demoralize us every day. We fight back against Faux when the NYT's, WaPo and other Propaganda machines are the ones we truly need to be concerned about.

It's a sophisticated PsyOps and it's hard not to get caught up in it. They learned from the experts... And decades of psychological research much more sophisticated than what the Nazi's were capable of and look what they did to the world. :-(




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VaYallaDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Bingo, KoKo. It's a constant ploy of the RW.
Change the subject, divert the attention, and (hopefully) enough of the people will be caught up in the fracas of the moment and ignore the real lurking evil they are perpetrating. They tried to do the same thing here in VA during the recent gov. election, thankfully it failed. With all the challenges facing VA (which will have to eventually be paid with some tax increases somewhere and they know it) they ran Kilgore on a very "dark" campaign attacking Tim Kaine's opposition to the death penalty (Kaine is a Catholic) - fortunately Kaine was savvy enough to turn the gun back on the GOP and take the position that he was offended by their attack on his faith (one of their hot-button words, as you know). He won big, thank goodness.

Right now they're doing their "war on Christmas" straw man in the hope that nobody's watching as the Chimperator tries to grab absolute power.
:puke:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #61
78. "War on Christmas 'Straw Man'".....Ain't that the TRUTH....Thanks...
that seems to be what he does. And, it's really frustrating that someone like "ME" who never watches Fox (Faux Network) has to look at post after post about WHAT he SAYS? His LATEST REPUG Talking Point! I HAVE TO SEE IT!

I guess no matter what...even our Lefties have to watch the guy and figure going against him is slaying a Dragon... But, O'Lielly is such a SMALL DRAGON...he's a distraction...and a "Straw Dragon." :D...put out there to DEFLECT US FROM THE REAL LIES AND HORRORS of what we are up against.

Thanks for pointing that out. :-)'s
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #59
72. I sometimes feel very strongly
that ignoring the likes of bo would be the Best Thing :)

Although, Congressman John Dingell did write a great poem about it and read it on the House Floor.

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YourBrother Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #59
75. in vino veritas
my mind toils between whether its a state run media

or a media run state

if you know what i mean ... :tinfoilhat:

over on this side of the pond the media seem to be completely ignoring the fact we are possibly on the brink of world war 3 and that people are totally sick of the corruption and lies

this mornings topic for discussion was about people who manufacture or buy counterfeit goods being responsible for funding terrorism

which is odd, becuase there's a bloke down my local market, dave, who sells imitation tat ... and he doesn't quite seem the sort to be funding any sort of international terror organisation .. infact he's always bemoaning the fact he's got a wife and 3 kids to feed and is barely making ends meet with his mortgage and bills going up every month

then i cast my mind back to a few years ago near christmas time when they got some other so called government expert to come in and explain why buying counterfeit goods was aiding and abetting child pornography ... that was the big scare story at the time

nevermind the story behind the list of people your government gave ours of people who had used credit cards to access these sites, the story appeared briefly, but then dissapeared amidst rumours certain senior officials in our governments were on the list

odd that eh?

THIS STORY NO LONGER EXISTS
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Welcome to DU ....and an interesting post, too!
:-)'s to you!
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. until war and its "necessities" gave them the knowledge that they could...
....get away with it.

We are already hearing people on the radio talking about how they don't mind being wiretapped and they trust their president in the time of war and they want him to do what it takes to combat terrorism. Well where have you heard all this before?
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. "Once the war began, the government could do anything "necessary" to win"
That sounds very familiar indeed.
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Fla Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. Mere lack of enthusiasm, or failure to show it in public, was "defeatism."
Defeatism is the administration's newest name for Democrats and liberals, or anyone else that opposes their rule. How chilling this was the same epithet used for the opposition in Nazi Germany.

I have never liked the name "Homeland" Security and I hate it even more now.

Doesn't this sound like the last five years? (from the above article.)

"thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in "43" had come immediately after the "German Firm" stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in "33". But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D."


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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
25. I picked up on that "defeatism" thing right away...
...because Shrub used the word "defeatism" in his last speech. Did anyone else pick up on that? Absolutely chilling...
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minerva50 Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
49. "Homeland" security has always had the ring of the German
"Heimat" to me.
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schrodingers_cat Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #49
89. Minerva, I speak German too, and thought the same thing
as soon as I heard it. Germany was also the place that educated me on the meaning of fascism, which made it so easy to spot here.
Also, I thought that the use of the word 'Crusade' by Boosh shortly after 9/11 in that damned speech was one of the most purposefully ill-chosen words that I have ever heard.
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oingecat Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. America
America is not moving to that place Germany was at. Let us keep to reality here. There are not trains to Auschwitz--and this is a country that still tries to protect the civil rights of nearly everyone it can, even everyone in the world.

It would be as big a mistake to unleash an undeserved hysteria as it was to ignore the real hysterias of 1938. We must not allow ourselves to be caught up in an unrealistic whirlwind of emotion simply because we wish to win next years' elections, and because it feels good to think we're fighting against such an awesome 'monster'.

Striking a blow against a paper tiger is no holy cause--it's just tilting at windmills instead of a real opponent.

Don't flame me on this one--I'm trying to be honest here.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. I agree we aren't on trains or anything. The scary part is the little
steps, over and over again that gets people used to it. It isn't one HUGE step.

I've always wondered how it happened. How so many normal, "good" people could go along with it.

We have seen so many steps, so much new secrecy, etc.

The point is to stop down this road.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. And I agree with you Pirate Smile about the Steps progressing and the road
we are currently going down....

I'm particularly intrigued by this diary because my Grandparents escaped Nazi Germany. They are dead now, but they told me many stories and a very similar accounting of this one. My Grandmother used to call Hitler "Der Verueckter" (the Crazy one) and didn't think much of him or worry about him at first. But he kept getting more and more powerful..Meanwhile she said that people were suffering financially with the economy and just trying to make it from one day to the next. People were not able to really pay attention to what was going on because they were so busy just surviving. The ones who were paying attention, folks like my Grandfather, his brother, colleagues and friends, were eventually suffering for their "questioning" (similar to stories like the one above about the Judge). My Grandparents were lucky. They had money and about 2 months after KristallNacht knew it was time to leave Germany. They were able to because they had money elsewhere out of the country. They left their home and majority of belongings behind. They took the few jewelery and pictures with them that they could.

I know that there are those that are skeptical or wary whenever there are comparisons drawn of what is happening here and what happened in Nazi Germany, but that is precisely the point and why the comparisons are so similar. Most people in Germany, including my Grandparents who were very "aware" wouldn't have believed for a minute that just 50Km's away to the North of their house was Dachau, a concentration camp where Jews were to be gassed and killed eventually. Then again, I never thought I would see the day where my country would even be debating what kind of torture or atleast limited torture (short of organ failure as per the White House memes) yet alone that we would have CIA secret torture prisons being set up overseas etc.

Like the accounting above by the poster, it starts with steps, and those of us who are "aware" and have been paying attention, often keep thinking things like "well, when the torture pics and videos come out and the American people see the images of children tortured, then there will be an uprising and speaking out by American people". But what happens is those little "steps" and the conditioning of people. Then those things come and the outrage and speaking out never comes. So you stand there, feeling alone, feeling isolated. And that is EXACTLY the description my Grandmother gave to me. She said she would talk to friends about things happening over Coffee and they would just tell her she was worrying too much and that things would get better, nothing to worry about. I keep thinking of how many people I know, who have said the exact same thing like "don't worry, we only have a few more years, and he'll be voted out" or "don't worry, that can't happen here".

Well, the President of the United States just said on TV that he ordered the wiretaps and spying on Americans without warrants - and that he'll do it again. And he we are, in a Country founded on principles by our founding fathers that specifically warned us of such intrusions and tried to protect us, and yet you have some outrage, but many who are saying that in the name of "protecting us" we need to do these things. And then those Americans around us who are in fear and buying into the bullshit and have been conditioned by the previous "step" say we must be willing to sacrifice some liberty for safety. And then you have people like Alberto Gonzales (aka Torture Czar) saying the founding fathers/framers of the Constitution didn't ever know about future technologies (ie. wiretaps, phones etc.) so it wasn't that they were necessarily "intending" to cover such things. Bullshit. They are once again trying to condition folks for the next step.

And just like Goebbels had his list (which my Grandfather has no doubt that he was on, which is why he left Germany when he did) make no doubt that Rove, Cheney, Bush etc. have been keeping "their lists"....It can happen here, it is happening here....

We are being boiled alive, but slowly...slowly with gradual temp increases so no one notices until...
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #22
32. Thanks for that Pachamama. It is very interesting to hear that the
description above is how your Grandparents saw it also.

Since I read this, I can't shake it. It is haunting in it's similarities in the small steps, "defeatists", "alarmists", doing anything to win the war, the intimidation of the press and critics in the years following 9/11.

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freedomfries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. thanks for posting this Pirate Smile
Those who seek kill democracy attack it from its weak side. Our strength is our constitution, our weakness its our electoral system. That's also their main line of attack and that's where they have to be stopped first.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
50. And you also have to remember
that Bush is trying to do the same thing with the economy. Rich get richer and thus in return give him and his neocons money while the rest of us are trying to get by. It hasn't impacted enough people. Instead of Jews it's now Arabs and gay people for religious purposes.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #50
98. Arabs and gay people, and now illegal immigrants, too.
(and non-Christians, and liberal "Christmas haters", etc,etc.)
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YourBrother Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #98
100. you forgot
peaceniks and anti-war types

In 1935, two-time Medal of Honor winner, retired Gen. Smedley D. Butler accused major New York investment banks of using the U.S. Marines as racketeers and gangsters to exploit the peasants of Nicaragua.
Later, Butler stated:
“The trouble is that when American dollars earn only six percent over here, they get restless and go overseas to get 100 percent. The flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
“I wouldn’t go to war again as I have done to defend some lousy investment of the bankers. We should fight only for the defense of our home and the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
“There isn’t a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It had its ‘finger men’ to point out enemies, its ‘muscle men’ to destroy enemies, its ‘brain men’ to plan war preparations and a ‘Big Boss’ — supernationalistic capitalism.
“I spent 33 years in the Marines. Most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism.
“I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenue in. I helped in the rape of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street.
“War is a racket.” — General Smedley Butler former U.S. Marine Commandant Common Sense November 1935
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
85. Thank you
This is exactly my experience, even within my own family where they tolerate and are slightly amused by my "rantings".
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kliljedahl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
53. It's always the little steps that'll get you
You're absolutely right on that one. There were no giant steps in 1930's Germany just a lot of little steps. The result was the same.



Keith’s Barbeque Central

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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Welcome to DU, oingecat. Please read, absorb, take in the
wise and/or the silly or controversial opinions, and make your own mind up. That is what it's all about. But this is a great place to get feedback, express yourself, and learn. The learning has been really impressive to me. You get stuff here you will never hear on the regular news channels.
Enjoy!
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. I have to disagree with you
You are right when you say There are not trains to Auschwitz true! You and I are not yet on trains but we are not Arabs or Muslims. We are not in Guantanamo Bay. The German people were not on trains either, and like you, that made them feel there was nothing to worry about. But like today's Muslims (are you aware that Muslims were rounded up and 'disappeared' in this country and we still don't know where many are today?) Jews were on trains!

You say --and this is a country that still tries to protect the civil rights of nearly everyone it can, even everyone in the world. I disagree with that statement, sorry. Tell that to the people of Afghanistan whose relatives are in Guantanamo Bay with no recourse to any judicial system of contact with their families, (including at least one child as young as 12) and without any charges filed against them in three years!! Is that protecting the rights of everyone? Where was the outrage there should have been when this first happened? Just like in Germany, it came only from a few and that few were called traitors, unpatriotic, unwilling to disappear 'terrorists'!! Of course not one prosecution, charge or conviction has yet happened in GB. Many have been released, innocent, but with the scars of whatt was done to them, to live with the rest of their lives. This is protecting civil liberties?

This administration IS a monster. They have USED 9/11 to remove the rights of Americans as well as those of other countries. Your assumption that we are caught up in a 'whirlwind of emotion because we wish to win next years' elections' couldn't be more wrong. Personally, if we had an opposition party that was not corrupted, I would not mind losing an election or two. We can live with that. This is NOT about winning an election, it is about men (and a few women) who have written books about their admiration for Fascism (read Michael Ledeen's writings, eg) and their belief that the government MUST lie to the people 'in order to protect the state'. Their goal of total control of the American people and of the other countries' people, and resources.

It will only be because of those who stand up to these criminals that they will not grow into the monster that Germany allowed to happen. That is the point of the article. It is a warning that Nazi Germany didn't happen overnight! In fact, I would guess that we are on a much faster track than Germany was in the 30s, towards a totalitarian state, unless we stop it now!

Otoh, I think the lessons learned from the German experience may help us to recognize the insidiousness of the Patriot Act, Domestic Spying, lies about war, the destruction of all social safety nets, the militarization of this country, the destruction of civil rights etc. more quickly than the German people did.

That is an excellent article and a warning we should heed from someone who knows how it happens. I too wondered how Germany could have happened. But now, I don't wonder anymore! I know how it happened. It happened because people didn't panic soon enough. Didn't object soon enough. I'm glad that the world is watching, that so many Americans ARE speaking out, even now, knowing that their government is spying on them. That is what will ensure that what happened in Germany won't happen here.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
45. Indeed. I can't remember the full details, but I do know
the mosque in my county is still petitioning the government to find out the fate of one of their members after he was picked up several years ago. No charges, no information. American citizen missing at the hands of our government.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
52. Speaking of the Arab/Muslims
being taken away I saw this documentary last year on the Sundance Channel and it was dealing with the "Patriot Act." It showed this family of Muslims who lived in the country and they owned a middle eastern store. Out of nowhere the feds came and arrested everyone who was in the house. Nobody was told why they were being arrested and they didn't have access to a lawyer. The family came to the country because the father was a pilot in Iran and he was flying the leadership somewhere and had trouble with the plane so he landed to save everyone's life. Instead of being a hero the leadership wanted his head so he fled the country to come here to the States to save himself and his family. Luckily they had a family member who wasn't taken (they were living on their own) and could call them and they got help I think through the ACLU and finally after months (half a year I believe) the mother and daughter was let out. The mother got very sick while in prison and nobody did anything for her. They were purely innocent. The daughter was interviewed and she said she knew they would have trouble after 9/11 and it feared her because she is Arab. So it does happen. And apparently nobody in either Abu Grahaib or Guantanamo Bay have been sentenced. There was another guy who was arrested and put in prison and beaten horribly and tortured and he was innocent too. It's scary and horrible.
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BR_Parkway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
24. When this country tries to protect my civil rights, rather than legislate
them out of existence - get back to me on that one.

Welcome to DU, hate my first post to you sounds flaming - but all Americans are not treated equally - and the cabal running this country is the strongest source of trying to undermine any and all protections that any of the minority groups have gotten in place over the past 5 decades.

As a gay man, there are literally tens of thousands of people who think they have the right to stone me to death, based on what their preacher has told them. There are at least as many who think it's ok to violate the civil rights of all Muslims (or blow up their mosques) and there have been plenty of calls to inter them (just like we did the Japanese-Americans). And let's not leave out that crowd who thinks we ought to just ship all those black folks back to Africa, it'll keep their white daughters safe and pure - or which pundit just recommended aborting them all to cut the crime rate.

This isn't hysteria. This is real. This is today. And it gets worse every single day.

Read this http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5653392
and then we can talk about it if you want.
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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
82. I agree, there are any number of fundies
that would love to see gay / Muslim / Arab /(insert minority here) killed or hurt; hell, some of them would do it themselves
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Thorandmjolnir Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
36. You're right.
It's not trains. Its planes. CIA planes all over the world. What I think has changed is that you no longer need to imprison millions of people to control them. Mass media, entertainment and the massage that the government is here to protect you, and it will only get the really guilty is how you control a population.

Lastly, these people are not racist. They are corporatist. Wealth is their religion.
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architect359 Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
37. No flame of course but for the sake of argument,
let's say that you're right that this administration has no inclination to move our country into a fascist state. Nonetheless, this administration has weaken the foundations of our country by chipping away, slowly but surely everything that we (or at least I) have assumed are freedoms and rights that define our society / culture. That is the point of the article. I'm leery of hysteria but it seems that the tell tale warning signs are there, you know?

This administration leave the gates open for a complete hijacking of our way of life - in fact, I believe that this is in the process of happening - secret wiretaps, secret prisons, arrests and detainment without due process (for years anyway), etc. It is the little steps that's dangerous. The President was just on national TV (national TV!!!) a few days ago - basically crowing about how he's done an act that is fundementally against our Constitution. Do you hear any outrage out there? Shocked gasps from some quaters perhaps, but so far nothing. Life goes on. Business as usual.

Our society is so accepting now, it's quite scary really.
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
39. planes to Gitmo & secret CIA prisons all over planet don't count?
wish I had more time for comments and links to back them up...
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Fla Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
42. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse."
"You wait for the next and the next.

You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty."


Is there uncertainty now? Should we wait for the next act against our freedoms, or the one after that? At what point are you ready to say, OK now is the time to act? When it affects you directly? By then it will be too late.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
44. The problem with thinking like that is that it tends to be a view
Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 02:04 PM by Pacifist Patriot
of the aftermath rather than the process. Germans in 1934 didn't imagine trains to Auschwitz either. Civil liberties and oppression don't have to vanish overnight to raise an alarm. It's the slow erosion that is probably the most dangerous. People don't realize what they've lost until it is too late and long gone.

No, we aren't in the midst of another Holocaust but the psychology that would enable one to occur is most certainly present. Erich Fromm's book Escape From Freedom is as relevant today as it was when first published in 1941. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in this topic.

Edited to add: If you still have doubts....http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2326245
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schrodingers_cat Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
90. Erich Fromm's book 'Escape From Freedom'
Hey, I knew I had a Fromm book on the shelf, and it's this one! Think I'll crack it and give it a looksee. Thanks for the tip.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
48. There are places of camps though
Remember what happened with the Japanese Americans. Although they weren't killed or hurt in any way, I don't think, they still were put in camps because of fear and in the name of safety. Have you ever read or heard how much hatered the fundies and freepers have for gay people, liberals and people of other faiths? I was watching a little bit last night of Barbara Walters' special on Heaven and even though the Christian and Islam faith have a lot in common the conservative fundies still hate anyone who isn't just like them. It's really scary.
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oingecat Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #48
68. Camps
You said: "conservative fundies still hate anyone who isn't just like them"...

I'm going to be very, very, very honest with you--and let the response to it be the truth in what I say: I have seen and experienced more dislike here, more censoring here, more INTOLERANCE of ANY differences than I have anywhere else. Any answer here that doesn't exactly match the reasoning and timbre of the feelings of those with over 1000 posts will get the poster banned. I'll be very surprised if this post doesn't get ME banned.

I've seen posters chided for being too cheerful, too 'patriotic', or simply for stating that our country, as a whole, was doing pretty well. Nevermind any ideological differences--everyone here has such a hair trigger temper that, most of the time, ideology isn't even gotten to--it's ordinary differences in expression, or feelings, or mood that isn't allowed!

Before you criticize one more 'fundie' or 'freeper' or conservative or 'righty', please think about the next poster here that gets banned. Think about why they've gotten banned. I know you'd like to think it's because they posted 'flamebait' or said something rude, but the posts/posters I've seen that have been 'disappeared' had NO cusswords, abuse, flaming, 'freeping' or anything even close. (This post I am writing now is not insulting or famebait--I'm trying to speak to you honestly about something that MATTERS to me--but I will be banned.)

Democrats try so hard to talk up being compassionate, understanding, tolerant; they bill themselves as being the 'party that cares'. However, you simply justify your intolerance, rather than setting the example. I've heard more 'Well, d'ya see what they did on FR? Well, we can do it, too! They'll ban you over there in a heartbeat! There's dozens of blogs where you can argue if you're a freeper/fundie/rightwinger, so we deserve to have DU just the way it is!'

Yes, you have a right to have DU any way you want it. But please stop the moral preening about being so tolerant. Tolerance ISN'T done HERE. You can justify it's not being here--but that will NEVER be a substitute FOR it.
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Fla Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #68
79. Don't know what caused you to feel we needed a lecture....
Have read all the responses to your "America" post and did not find one that was disrespectful, intolerant to your view, or threatening. Responders were simply arguing their POV vis-a-vis yours. Babylonsister even welcomed you on board and encouraged your participation.

Either you're overly sensitive, or clearly misreading the posts.

Don't know how long you've lurked, and lurking is OK, I did it a while myself before I joined, but to make the pronouncements you made after being an active member only since 12/18/2005 speaks volumes.

Hope you stick around longer and really get to know us.
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oingecat Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. I was not speaking of the responses to my...
Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 06:45 PM by oingecat
...'America' post. I don't mind the comments and disagreement there in the least. Go back and reread my post--I'm speaking about what I have seen go on with other posters, and with 2 posters that I know--blogfriends--that have been banned here. I was responding to the comment that 'fundies hate anyone who isn't just like them'--which I cut and pasted from that poster's post so there would be no misunderstanding.

I'd like to stick around and get to know you all better--I guess that'll depend on how tolerant you are.

I'm sorry if my post seemed like a 'lecture'; I was simply expressing some strong feelings. If you can suggest a better way I could have said what I said, I'd gladly listen to it.
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Fla Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. Not to drag this out, but as long as you asked......
I appreciate your response, but here's what bothered me.

"Any answer here that doesn't exactly match the reasoning and timbre of the feelings of those with over 1000 posts will get the poster banned."

This to me sounds like an over exaggeration of fact, a blatant generalization and a slam at all DU'ers. I have disagreed vehemently with many posts, but have never been banned.

"I'll be very surprised if this post doesn't get ME banned."

Was this necessary?

"I'm speaking about what I have seen go on with other posters, and with 2 posters that I know--blogfriends--that have been banned here."

Why not wait until you've been active here for a while to form your own opinion, rather than depending on the comments of others. And again if you've only been around for a week, that hardly gives you a comprehensive view of the forum on which to draw a valid opinion.

As far as "Freedomangel's" comment regarding conservative fundie's, she was simply reacting to comments made on the program, which indicated little tolerance by CF toward anyone who does not think, act and believe as they do. The use of hate was perhaps strong, but if that's her perception, then that's her perception. You simply could have expressed your disagreement with her by replying to that particular comment that offended you.
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Tom Bombadil Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #68
88. Your quote:-
Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 09:43 PM by Tom Bombadil
But please stop the moral preening about being so tolerant.

Have to say that I've never seen any of this 'moral preening' you describe at DU.

I'm certainly not tolerent when it comes to ignorant and simple-minded folks and I happily admit that.
By the way, I'm not attacking you here.

Also, being too patriotic is a bad thing in my opinion. Patriotism leads to war and war kills people.

:)
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oingecat Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #68
101. I DO appreciate the responses....
Edited on Thu Dec-22-05 07:50 AM by oingecat
Even if I may not agree.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
62. nazi trains=CIA planes to undisclosed torture camps
The Constitution is being used as toilet paper to wipe the ass of the cabal.


Eyes wide shut.





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Shallah Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
81. No trains - they just stood aside and let the hurricane do the dirty work
There is no need for death camps to get rid of undesireables when they can just let them drown, starve, and die of treatable illnesses by negligence.
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oingecat Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #81
102. Katrina
I've read that Katrina killed across all class lines--and that more white people died than black people/minorities.

I don't know if that included those still missing, though.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
84. Do we have to wait until that happens
to scream from the rooftops that it is happening again?

My sig line from last year: It's not 2004, it's not even 1984, it's 1934 and I am not a good German.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. This started long before 2000
I see people who say that since 2000 they've been very upset. This started well over 30 years ago. When I've explained the specific ways in which we arrived, invariably I get brushed off as silly. I won't even bother anymore. What I will say is that we must not stray too far from what nature intended. And that we must not become too comfortable. Safety is not paramount. And again, as I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing, the population has a big affect. People need jobs. With more people, we must create more jobs. Not all jobs contribute to the betterment of society, regardless of how they appear on face value. What appears genuine and perfectly contributory may actually be a drag on our liberties. We must strive for simplicity. Growth is not always in our best interest. There are limits. Common sense means standing back and assessing the overall picture. But we have forced ourselves into ever more specialized occupations. It might sound cryptic.
The media plays a supportive role in our acceptance and willingness to believe that what we are doing is ok. We abandoned common sense in media. And so did the Germans. The spin favored growth and corporatization.
As we vary from what nature can sustain, we must invent ways to justify it. You can't fool mother nature. We need to return to a local community infrastructure; Minimize growth; Be honest; Use government to keep the bully factor down. But use it to buffer the extremes of health and poverty.



In short, we let this happen. We asked for safety. They gave us laws. Who here thinks that the drunk driving laws should be abandoned in favor of freedom? That's what I'm talking about. Who is a bigger risk- the drunk driver or a powerful government? You asked for it. You can argue that they have nothing to do with where we are today. But that's where they got their power. They said we needed to stop drugs. We didn't stop them. They ratcheted up another notch. It happened one notch at a time.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Now think about what happened there aftr the war began
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. A number of European acquaintances
who survived WWII have expressed the same sentiments. I am just paranoid enough to think they may be right.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
10. Very powerful
Is it too late?
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. No, not if our other branches of Government do their job in checking the
Executive branch, it doesn't have to be to late. That was the brilliance of how the founders set up our Government.

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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. whoops - that is "too" not "to" but it is "too" late to edit.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
11. It can't happen here.
Is what they always say.



BTW: Feel free to say: "Must Read" anytime you want, Pirate Smile.

This IS a must-read.

Vielen dank.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. Thanks
:)
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
14. it's going to be progressive women...
That you had to ask is...odd. Who else is there? All of this anti-choice mania....all of the media turning women into a subclass. Plus the porn which the leftist boys like....

You tell me...who is the next enemy??? Who is the group that is being attacked? Who offered the damn apple? And now the RR is gonna spurn?

Wake up. The ones attacked are the 'hos, the bitches, the c-words.....women are as John Lennon said...the niggers of the world. We take care of the spit, shit and piss..someday, we'll strike. No wonder most boys don't like abortion.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #14
99. Hillary Clinton might be the next president.
You're not really serious, are you? The next holocaust is going to eradicate American women?!

Wow....sometimes I wonder if many on the left really are just doing battle with figments of their politicized imaginations.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
16. When I started seeing our own signing on
to avoid the political assasination from the Reicht I knew we were in serious trouble.

Until we can stop our own party unfaithful from endorsing this madness we wont have a prayer . Im not implying that everyone should think alike but on issues like the war, bankruptcy and the other obvious mistakes it shows there are some of them who arent really Democrats, but corporate whores and such.. We need to make these ones pay for these insane stances.
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
17. K&R - Everyone should read this...
Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 01:29 AM by ms liberty
I've said since (s)election day 04 that this must be how the "smart" germans felt.

The current "war on christmas" is yet another way to depersonalize and dehumanize those of us who disagree with the current *co admin & their rabid followers.

I worry that it's too late already. I'd get out if my husband would agree. He doesn't think it's as bad as it is.

Thanks for posting, Pirate Smile. Very disturbing, but necessary.

edited for typo
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
18. We say "Never Forget"
but we do.
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Freedom_from_Chains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
19. Yep, when you take a hard look at it, what is happen in America
Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 01:52 AM by Freedom_from_Chains
is 1930's Germany all over again. So it is reasonable to conclude that the end result will be the same. Only this time, when the rest of the world comes to stop us, it will be with nukes.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:18 AM
Response to Original message
23. Thank you for posting this.
It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from his government-Thomas Paine

Peace.
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teach1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
26. Kicked and recommended N/T
:kick:
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jmatthan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
27. This has already happened in the US

From outside of your country I have seen this happen steadily since 2000.

When I published my web page

CORRESPONDENCE WITH AN "EDUCATED" AMERICAN 2001
compiled by
Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

http://koti.netplaza.fi/~findians/AntiWar/USEducated/educated.html

it was my expression of despair.

Then I discovered your real underground as Mike Malloy, Peter Werbe, Thom Hartmann, and later Guy James which led me to Democratic Underground. Most of them were quickly snuffed out. Only the revival of the Liberal media through Air America raised some semblance of hope again, but even that is filled with a few be-nice apologists.

But seeing support for various degree Bush-lites as Zell Miller, Joe Liebermann, Hillary Clinton, Wes Clark, Paul Hackett, and the vilification of anyone who says that these are not Democrats, has made me shut up.

Some of you may remember that the Moderators shut down one of my threads on DU because I strayed to far and was closer to the truth than some wanted.

But what is too far? Telling it as we see it from so many miles away, or as you see it from the tips of your noses?

What have I to lose.

Only you lose by not listening.

To me, US is already a fascist state ruled by a corrupt cabal and many Democrats are within that cabal.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
28. "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end."
an important read!

thanks for sharing :toast:

peace
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
29. duplicate - self delete
Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 08:29 AM by mandyky
...
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
30. Maryscott OConnor's diaries are always good
Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 08:28 AM by mandyky
This one is horrifying as well. Of course, DUers have been posting the 14 symptoms of Fascism for awhile now. I think most of us know we are on the road, even the Republicans. Why do you think the GOP had such a fit over that MoveOn contest submission with Hitlerr in it? They did the same thing when Durbin mentioned gulags and 3 months later we find out he was right, but the GOP raised such a stink Durbin had to apologize.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
34. replying now so I can find later
Thanks - no time to read now.
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jasmeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
38. WOW! It's true that each tiny spoonful of fascism is fed to us by
pundits in the corporate media thus making it more acceptable to many. Scary.
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Nordmadr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
40. So what do you do? Find a mesage board where lots of folks
are talking revolution? So these folks gather up alot of would be revolutionaries, say perhaps they even get up to 100 people to join their cause. You see, but now you start to get noticed, 100 people gathering together talking about revolution, gathering supplies, weapons perhaps. This gets agents Mikes attention as he peruses the various sites he searches. He reports this to the higher ups. They start a little silent search on these "terrorists" and then quietly Waco or Guantanomo their asses. So long mini-revolution.

This is scary shit. Everyone instead seems to sit around like those poor German citizens, saying "When do we fight"? "How do we stop this"? Make too much politcal noise and you are methodically ostracized and trivialized. Fucking liberal. Start talking about more than that, and you are a tin foil crackpot, who should probably be investigated because, well, you might just be dangerous. Too bad for you, too bad for us.

Fuck.

Disclaimer: Agent Mike. I am not calling for revolution. Please leave me and my poor huddled masses alone so that we can just get by. These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
41. Kick - it's so important that people read this.
One of the most chilling things I've read in a long time. Yeah, I've known for quite a while that we're slipping down the slope toward fascism, but to read it in such a well-articulated piece brought tears to my eyes and sent chills down my spine.
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
43. k + r. Chilling is right. n/t
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
46. Done
I sent it to mine. Since he's a republican I don't know how much he'll read if anything at all. I also voiced my concern about Bush spying on regular Americans and how he should be impeached since he broke his oath of office and did something illegal according to the Constitution. I have seen a few documentaries on the History channel and I remember seeing one where this woman was interviewed in her mid to late eighties I'd say and she said they had no idea any of it was going on because Hitler controlled the media. Sounds familiar? It really is scary how much the fundies hate liberals, gays etc. and makes me wonder if it could happen here since Bush, the neocons and republicans aim to please the fundies for votes.
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linazelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
47. This excerpt resonated with me
""The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your "little men", your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you.

"Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about - we were decent people - and kept us so busy with continuous changes and "crises" and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the "national enemies", without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think..."



That's exactly right. Nobody really wants to think. I especially found it shocking, at first knowledge of what was happening, that so many "learned men" (like Ann Coulter) were not only buying into the propoganda, but selling it. But now I just watch as people let themselves be spoonfed and told what is best for them. Sigh.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
51. The new scapegoats.
Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 02:23 PM by Cleita
Probably won't be the Jews. Maybe Arabs. Maybe gays. Maybe "libruls." Who the fuck knows? It almost certainly won't be recognisable to most people until it's far too late.


I think our new scapegoat class is emerging within our immigrant community of hispanics, both legal and illegal. Look at what is happening. We have racist Minutemen vigilantes patrolling the border.

We have passed a resolution to build a wall between us and them. With the wall will come imprisonment for those who breach it. Then it won't stop with just illegals caught at the border. Soon they will be arresting those already here and their families, meaning women and children. There will be new prisons built or concentration camps.

If that isn't enough, the racism that this fans means that neighbors will be reporting their hispanic neighbors even those who are legitimate residents or even citizens.

Then it might be concurrent with hatred of Arabs like the Gypsies were in Nazi Germany. Don't forget the Gays, especially Hispanic or Arab gays either. Bigotry has many tentacles.

It was just this kind of hate and bigotry towards the Jews that caused many non-Jewish Germans to let the holocaust happen. I see this kind of racism and hatred toward the hispanics by non-hispanics today.

If we don't recognize this and stop this irrational barbed wire conspiracy to happen at our borders, you will see a new holocaust arising.
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #51
64. Yes, this is already happening
I live in a southern suburb and the Hispanic immigrants are being scapegoated. It started with controversy about the male day laborers standing out on the streets in the mornings waiting to be picked up for work. The so-called "Hispanic Problem" was a big issue in the city elections, with one mayoral candidate advocating bulldozing the apartment complexes were the majority of the immigrants live. After a new mayor and city council were elected, our small city started its own "Department of Homeland Security." As far an anyone can tell (everything is secret) all this new department does is handle immigration issues. It started with the closure of the Multicultural Center, a place where workers could go to be picked up for work so they didn't have to stand out on the streets. It was claimed that the men were using drugs at the center and urinating and defecating in the yard. Once the city shut that down, they started harassing the men to get off the streets and get inside. Now the police are doing night time entries into trailers and apartments and rounding up whole families. The excuse used is "gang activity" and other crimes, but we never really know if this is true because the people are deported and there are never any charges or trials.

Then a couple of weeks ago, there were two separate arson fires set in the middle of the night in apartment complexes where many immigrants live. No one was killed, but many were left homeless, including large numbers of children.

When I talk about this with friends, we are all aghast at what is happening in our city. But everyone is also frightened to speak out, because we feel we are in the minority and the hatred is so strong.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. OMG. This is terrible.
Could I ask you where you live? I think we need to do something about this.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
54. "not because we knew better ... but because we sensed better"
This is resonating for me.
There has been so much going on that is continually chipping away at what we once were or thought ourselves to be, yet that isn't something that gets the attention or that you can even say is the point, yet we sense is not right.

One that struck me last week is how in the flurry of stories about the wiretaps, the phrase "secret court" gets used as casually as "summer day." Of course, I'm very concerned about the main issue of * stomping all over the 4th Amendment, but when did having a "secret court" become ok and normal and something that's not even a point of concern or contention?

K&R

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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Yes. It was a sensation which fueled my obsession as well.
The war propaganda seemed so blatantly wrong to me, even when I was very busy surviving my own life.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #57
73. Yes
And the more propaganda that keeps coming, the more many people become inured to, or even accepting of bits of it. Even some sceptical folks get sucked in sometimes, even as they feel it isn't right.
Then there are people I know, like one of my coworkers, whose rage is at the simmering to boiling point and who won't talk about any of these issues anymore because it makes her confront her angry and helpless feelings. Of course, I also feel angry and helpless and even hopeless on some days, but I keep yakking away.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #54
69. "....but we sensed better."
That's how many of us felt when the Senate voted on the ability to let george decided if we should go to war. Why were so many on this site feeling the same way. It's a gut thing. War is damn serious folks. They voted like it was a vote on farm subsidies. Through the years, on this site, different opinion pieces said "this will get people's attention." Nope, nothing seems to really get people's attention. Gas prices seem to come the closest. Just like the article described in Germany, too busy working and dealing with everyday life. The Dems in Congress need to walk out in protest to the takeover of this country. What else is there to do?
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. "It's a gut thing."
Absolutely. And that was a day that felt like a huge kick in the gut.

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YourBrother Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
55. The Frog Principle
The Frog Principle is employed by governments the world over

If you take an intelligent, happy frog and drop him into a bucket of boiling water, what will the frog do? Jump out! Instantly, the frog decides: "This is no fun - I'm gone".

If you take the same frog, or a relative, and drop him into a bucket of cold water, put the bucket on the stove and gradually heat up the bucket, what then ? The frog's relaxing .... a few minutes later he says to himself: "It seems warm in here." Soon enough you have a cooked frog.

The moral of the story?
Life happens gradually. Like the frog, we can be fooled, and suddenly it's too late.
We need to be aware of what is happening

before we are unable to leap from the bucket!

lets make it happen

big shot across the bows of these nazi's! we know what your upto!

p.s. i just watched watership down and am feeling particularly motivated lol
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. Welcome to DU, YourBrother! Thanks for the Frog Principle
explanation. It seems especially relevant with this Diary from Maryscott OConnor

:hi:
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YourBrother Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. on the contrary happy cap'n bluebeard
it is i that should be thanking you for sharing that quite breathtaking snippet of modern reality

as someone else commented, once opened eyes they are not so easily closed

i think every single american should read and inwardly digest the message in here, it's hard not to when it's so succinctly put

"What luck for rulers, that men do not think" HITLER

insert attributable bush'ism here ....
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #55
92. Fortunately, there are those of us who cannot be dropped into that,...
,...bucket or bath or psychological boiler.
l
There are ALWAYS those of us beyond those tenacles of human ill.

We WILL get through this in better shape than before. We must teach the importance and necessity of vigilance to thwart the repetition of such utter weakness in the future.
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YourBrother Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. absolutely
however ....

with a track record like this ...

http://www.craigslist.org/sby/pol/115776709.html

i wouldn't bank on it

people really do have short memories it seems
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
56. Excellent read and excellent responses
I think about the premise of this article much too much these days. The slow creeping fascism, how quickly, how subtley it happens. There are no perfectly apt comparisons to any one point of history in time. What happened in Nazi Germany won't happen here like that exactly. No, no concentration camps BUT secret prisons. The rights of citizens curtailed, bit by bit, year by year "hidden" in other bills. Most people haven't a CLUE what congress did today.

Torture of those that are just there-Abu Gharib-Guatanamo-(whose next-American Citizens that MIGHT be terrorists-so they deserve it RIGHT?)no Iraq isn't America but we are spending my children's future dollars to supposedly install a "Democracy" there-so I guess I should care that we are torturing those Iraqi's shouldn't I? Why care if they have a Democracy but not care if they are tortured? What kind of thinking is that? Insanity.

So alarmist. Yes, how easy to say when Katie Couric or Barbara Walters poo poos this "wiretap Americans thing". Oh it's for your safety! Oh it's a technical legal debate! Oh it's nothing. Conditioned to move along to inane discussions that mean nothing and effect nothing and don't mean life and death- "the war on Christmas." CHRIST. There is a real war going on-can't really discuss the REALITY of that though-so propaganda is made up to divert our energy, our debate, our outrage, our concern on something FALSE. That's what Propaganda is. I used to watch show's like the View (stay at home mom here) now if I turn them on for a moment or two-the trivilization of what is happening in this country sickens me. It's just a debate. They all get along and laugh. There is nothing wrong! nothing to worry about! It's all ENTERTAINMENT. The NEWS is entertainment. It's all lies.

Oh yes, very powerful indeed this piece. Once your eyes are open you can't go back.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
58. Black people already are the scapegoats
They have come for our neighbors, and we let it happen because we didn't want to appear "soft on crime."

It's way later in the process than most DUers seem to think.
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Fla Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Immigrants too, illegal or otherwise.. n/t
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schmuls Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
66. Wew! Thanks for posting this. Chilling. I'm off work until 1/3/2006
and I don't have a computer at home! I will miss this forum. It is my 5 day weekly dose of reality. Blessings to all.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
70. I am speechless & filled with such sadness at what has happened
to my country. This morning I was driving to work & for some reason started singing "The Star Spangled Banner" & broke into tears upon finishing "land of the free, home of the brave." We will have to come up with a new national anthem soon.

On another board I started a discussion about the spy issue & was stunned that the majority are happy to concede their rights in return for safety. I told them that no one could guarantee their safety, especially in light of how we aren't even working on making our country safer -- no security in our ports, our power plants, our water plants, & on & on, but they wouldn't here of it. They are so certain that bushco's spying will make them safer.

I have such a heavy heart today when I contemplate my country. I feel fortunate to have lived during the very best part of America.




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YourBrother Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #70
76. hush there little lady
dont you worry

and dont give up on humanity just yet

they are banking on people feeling helpless and turning to them for survival or hope

these types tried it on before, they didn't succeed then, and they wont now

for the emotion that stirred in you is the humanity in us all wishing for a better future, we're gonna make it happen, together
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #76
91. Rest assured, YourBrother,
I would never turn to them for comfort or survival. I am hopeful that you are right that they will not succeed now, but not so optimistic that we will win the battle this time. As for my humanity, I am one of the most cynical misanthrope's I know. I think the human species has such potential, but it is potential for both incredible good & for incredible evil.

Which will win?


Welcome to DU! :hi:



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YourBrother Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. good vs evil?

good always wins hun, and the bartender never gets shot!

seems to me most honest americans on here right now feel like a nation under oppression and scrutiny from their unoficially elected leaders

sounds to me like america needs "liberating" from itself from within

if every american who gives a flying shit turned up at their congressmans golf club on a sunday morning with camera's and listening devices you can be your ass things would change swiftly

when is enough enough? have we become so accustomed to being let down and trodden on byt hese people that we will let them take everything we beleive in from us?

put the beady eye on those who put it on you

make a big noise and don't be afraid

theres lots more of us :)

ideas are more dangerous than guns

like here's an idea >> a society that cares for it's elderly, needy and those who cannot care for themselves ... now who's going to want to attack that? Well traditionally it's been the good old US of A but seeing as your plans for full spectrum dominance are now nearly complete i'm afraid the complicity of your people in the atrocities carried out in your name since the end of world war II .. are coming home to roost it seems, your experiencing america as the developing world has known it

when your traditional export is the military overthrow of democratically elected governments that won't bow to your every whim ... all of a sudden .. there's none left to fight your corner when you need one

im just glad not all of your military is believing the rhetoric spewing out right now

it can only become a police state if they have enough idiots to police it
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ticapnews Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
74. I wrote something like in August.
But don't worry, it can't happen here.

:eyes:
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
86. Pirate Smile please read
Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 09:47 PM by proud patriot
In the future please limit your snips of articles
to 4 paragraphs as per The Democratic Underground
copyright rules .

proud patriot Moderator
Democratic Underground
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #86
95. I didn't think about the book when I posted it. I was thinking more about
the website and the Diary author instead of the true author - Milton Mayer's They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933 - 1945

Sorry about that.


:spank:
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tlsmith1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
87. I'm Spent
That was scary. It seems so much like the way things are going now. We can't let it happen like this again.
What good is it to defeat Hitler if we just become like him later on? It looks like we really *do* have no choice but to fight. And it's hard for me to do this.
I'm not usually the type of person who sticks my neck out. I may rant here at DU, but most people know me as pretty shy. So this isn't easy for me, but I am feeling such a huge sense of alarm right now. The spying thing really put a chill into me. It has all become very personal. I could actually get in trouble for my political beliefs. I'm very stubborn & won't change for anyone, so I guess I won't be one of the ones who "adapts" so that everyone will leave them alone. It looks like fighting may be the only way for me. So I need some encouragement here. This is going to be so hard, but I know I have to do it.

Tammy
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
93. HOLY SHIT! Thank you for posting that. I will send this everywhere.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
97. What I would say, to anyone feeling the chill of fear that this post...
...inspires, is: find others who share your concern and DO something. Fear, disempowerment, disillusion, depression--these are the enemy. Fight them with all the life in you, and with your whole mind and soul.

I often think of Nelson Mandela, THIRTY YEARS in prison, in South Africa--in one of the most oppressively racist governments the world has seen, outside of our own--and then he was freed, and then he became the first black president of that country.

You can be sure he had some dark hours in that prison.

And you know how that happened? Besides the long, difficult struggle of the people of South Africa itself and their various leaders and their various songs (very important to that movement), it was American university students, who organized a boycott of all companies that were invested in South Africa's racist government, and who held sit-ins in university offices until the university investment portfolios DIVESTED themselves of the stock of all such companies. Somebody had a real creative moment when they thought up that strategy.

Join together. Reach across the borders. Make common cause. There is a miracle of democracy sweeping South America right now, for instance. We are so myopic sometimes. They are showing us how it's done. These countries--Chile, Venezuela, Bolivia, Uruguay, Argentina, Brazil--are recovering from centuries of exploitation, and heinous governments in modern times (often supported by our government). And they are peacefully and democratically transforming themselves, empowering the vast population of the poor and the brown. It is just amazing what is happening throughout the subcontinent. They are banding together in regional financial and political alliances, and are throwing bad actors like Bechtel out of their countries, and are forming a united front against any further U.S. interference and against our horrible "war on drugs." And they are doing it without animosity, really--and with no violence. They seem to know that we, the people of the U.S., are also oppressed, like they have been. Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, for instance, is proving cheap heating oil to the poor of the United States! And free eye operations. Incredible.

I'm not sure why this springs to mind--in a discussion of the slow boil of fascism that we perceive with this Bush junta. Maybe it's just to say: We are not alone in the world, neither as individuals, nor as a population of oppressed people. And if silence is the sin that "good Germans" committed, then we must not be silent. And if isolation is the emotion that gripped them, and prevented action, then we must overcome isolation and band together with others who feel this alarm. Don't dwell on those who are asleep. Find those who are not! Widen your circle. And look for ways of taking positive action.

We cannot expect "the Democrats" to fix what is wrong with our country. Change must come from the "bottom," from us. From each of us, to each other.

My thing is election reform. I think that if we can recover the mechanism of power--our right to vote--which has been taken away from us quite deliberately, because of its potential power--then our country will quite naturally right itself. I do believe strongly in the American people and their love of peace and justice. But they are disempowered, and, above all, disenfranchised. So I'm working on spreading the word about this, and regaining control of our election system from the private corporations who have taken it over.

Others may go some other route to change, or have some other way of changing things. No more sitting and moaning. Do it!



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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
103. kickety-kick, since a thread on the "Your Papers, Please" law in Ohio is
now near the top of GD
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. I'll give it a kick since we now know Bush wanted Military Powers
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