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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 09:34 AM
Original message
Can someone help me with the health insurance thing?
I support euro/Canadian style single payer. I have an ongoing e-mail debate going with a conservative friend who has these outlandish ideas about the cost. Here's an excerpt from our latest exchange:

Me: The cost arguement is, to me, dismissed by our offer of airfield rent to Turkey and the subsequent billions we are willing to put into Iraq at this point not to mention the vital importance...

Him: I think I did the math on this once and it unfortunately doesn't come close.
100 million families in the US
1000 per month (low for insurance)
= over a TRILLION dollars a year.
Let's say I'm off by a factor of ten. That's still more than the $87 bil for Iraq, and this is every single year.


I know I've heard reports that it would not be that expensive. As a matter of fact, I thought that I only heard on NPR recently that some large medical association endorsed single payer as the way to go. Can anyone help me out here? Thanks.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. From ABC News -- US health care ranks 37th in the world
The question is not just about the $87 billion. It's about the billions that we CURRENTLY pay for a system that leaves some 43 billion uninsured and charges outrageous premiums. We pay more $$$ per capita for health care than ANY OTHER COUNTRY.

If we were to switch from for-profit to single-payer, we would save far more than the $87 billion being spent on Iraq.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. We save about 1.5% of our GNP with 100% insured Universal Health
Indeed it may be as high as 2.5% of GNP. Hell, we could eliminate the deficit if the savings flowed to the gov (which I do not recommend - instead I'd like a tax cut reversal and a restructure of the tax system to make it progressive).

Capital gets reallocated to where it would grow the economy. Most jobs remain untouched as those in the medical insurance inductry (HMO and Inc Co.) become admin service companies - doing the same job they do now - indeed this is the way Medicare Part B is run now with private admin services only contracts.

Only the rip-off to the CEO's and "investors" is ended. The investors will have to deploy their capital elsewhere, and folks in politics will have to be corrupted by some other industries money.
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wakfs Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Not to mention....
....the incredible savings to corporate America by NOT having to pay for their employees' health insurance. That's GOT to be in the hundreds of billions, much of which would almost certainly be reinvested and translate into jobs and an economic boom not seen since the Clinton era. If not better.

Universal health care is a winner all around. If I were a candidate, I'd continually pound the "Universal health care equals Jobs" message.

Just my two cents.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Where does that money come from?
You can't just wave a magic wand and make it appear:).
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Mel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. is this what your looking for?
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. everyone thinks
that single payer will cost more in the first two or three years than the current system. But, as the benefits begin to accrue, it is more than likely that serious cost savings will being to show in year 4 on into the future. One person who gets treatment for say, diabetes now, at a cost of $500/month (higher end) will cost the system $6000/year. a lot of money, no? well, we can treat someone for TEN years at that rate for the cost of one foot amputation and hospital stay (which is what will happen to you, best case, without treatment) and during those six years of treatment, we have an outwardly healthy, contributing member of society. You pay more now, you save much more later.

also, $1000 for a family of what size? 4 people? that would add up to 400,000,000 people in the US, much higher than the current population. it's more likely to be only the 43 million people who need health insurance we need to cover (everyone else is already paying, so the money just gets shifted, right?) say those 43,000,000 people (I take the stat from the WHO study cited on Nightline last night) each of whom needs insurance at a rate of $400/month (I take this as a nice round number, I currently pay $296/month for full coverage in DC) that means you need $4800/person/year. total for one year: $206,400,000,000. That's a lot of money.

Now, subract the costs saved. Those 43,000,000 people only use the most expensive care avaliable. They don't go the PCPs when they have a problem, they go to the ER. Figure 1 million ER visits from that group every year. now guesstimate that fully 1/3 of those visits are not for emergency care. and another 1/3 could be prevented with regular care avaliable under the system. (don't believe me? get strep throat, where do you go? I call my doctor, who sees me for 20 minutes, gives me a scrip and I go back to bed for three days. happened last winter. Now, if I don't have a doctor, what do I do when I am too sick to work, probably two or three days later that I called my Dr? I go to the ER. My Doctor visit cost my HMO $85. plus what, $50 for the generic antibiotic? let's be generous and say a total of $250. What does an ER visit cost? a minimum of $1000? There's a reason why my copay is higher in the ER, it costs more. and it takes hours upon hours. why does it take so long? because there are people there who should be seeing doctors, but can't afford insurance. Take them back to a GP, and the ER will be more efficient, save more lives, and save a ton of money. Who pays that money, when no one else can? the State. or all of us in higher costs. Estimates from the Institute of Medicine range from $100-150 Billion in annual cost savings from reducing the dependance on Emergency care for primary care. Go with the low end. Now we're down to $106,000,000. Add to that the drop in lost productivity from people sitting around ERs, and missing days of work with easily treatable illnesses that they didn't get treatment for. With Strep, I missed three days of work. Without insurance, I once missed two weeks from a throat infection very similar to strep. Because i didn't get to a Doctor, and then it was an emergency care facility until I had been sick for four days. So on top of the $1250 Emergency bill, I missed out on an additional seven days of work at roughly $125/day. another $875. THe whole thing cost $1875 MORE than if I had had insurance. It's not that costs were passed onto me that is was more, it's that, with insurance, that additional $1875 would never have been charged to ANYBODY. it simply wouldn't have existed. That's half a year's insurance costs, rung up in two weeks from a once minor infection that got real bad, real quick.

And that's my story. Of how I cost the taxpayers of the District of Columbia $1875 (I was working for the School District, they paid me and my sub for the days I was out, and picked up my medical tab) That is why single payer will save us all money. in the medium term and the long term.

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
5. Health care is always expensive
But you have to consider that employers would stop paying for insurance.
Compare the USA to the large country with the next highest expenditure on healthcare - Germany (all figure from WHO, for 2000):

USA total health expenditure = 13.0% of GDP; public expenditure is 44.3% of that = 5.8% of GDP.
Germany total health expenditure = 10.6% of GDP; public expenditure is 75.1% of that = 8.0% of GDP.

Note that USA GDP in 2002 was 10.4 trillion dollars, so current total health expenditure is of the order of 1.4 trillion dollars.

So the cost of upgrading public healthcare to the German system is 2.2% of GDP - about 230 billion dollars per year.

In reality, it would cost more than this at first, because a new payment system would have to be set up. France, Canada etc all spend less than Germany.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
7. 1000/mth maybe for privitized health ensurance
government controlled health ensurance in Europe is more like a few 100 per year.
and in Cuba it's free.

the cost of the Iraq war is like 80B per month. it's just that actual combat lasted for about a month.

and there's still one trillion missing at the Pentagon.
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VeniceBeat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
8. Atrios Has a Discussion Going
www.atrios.blogspot.com

Part One is up, Part Two due soon.

Check out the comments section. :hi:
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SeattleRob Donating Member (893 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
9. Things to consider...
Edited on Fri Oct-24-03 11:47 AM by SeattleRob
Most every counrty in the world offers universal health care coverage. A majority of Americans support universal health care, but the big money of insurance, pharmaceutical companies, and for profit medical interests have hijacked the democratic process. These people contribute big dollars to politicians in both parties (though a majority goes to the republicans) and they spend a lot of money with phony PR and misinformation.

We've all heard the stories about people in other countries that are being given shotty care, or they are dying while waiting for esssential life-saving surgeries. My favorite lie is about Canadians fleeing Canada and coming to the US for quality health care. My sister is a nurse and she was lucky enough to speak with Canadian nurses at a recent convention. They told her the system in Canada is excellent. (On questions of healthcare, who should you beleive? Nurses or Political Pundits?)

To see the extent of the lying and greed, there's the recent push by pharmceutical companies (and their lapdog, bought and paid for politicians) to prevent people from going across the border to get cheaper perscriptions. They are saying that Canadian Drugs aren't as good as US drugs.

I think there are moral questions about "for profit" health care. The bottom line is that over 40 million Americans don't have health coverage and the price of perscription drugs continues to inscrease.
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InMarin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. Canada's plan does not include prescriptions
The Canadian government does not provide an insurance plan for prescription drugs...nor does it cover dental or vision. Individuals must still rely on corporate insurance for drugs.

It's also pertinent that Canada does not have an income tax...they have a National Sales Tax which is the most regressive tax system.

We can do better than that dammit!
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yes we have income tax.
Not sure what you mean by this >>It's also pertinent that Canada does not have an income tax<<, as Canada does have a progressive income tax system in addition to sales taxes at the provincial and federal level (except for Alberta which never introduced a sales tax thanks to their oil revenues). In Ontario, for example, there's a provinicial and federal progressive income tax and there is also the 8% sales tax applied to purchases along with a federal 7% Goods and Services Tax (GST). So for every widget you purchase, you pay 15% on top of the purchase price in sales taxes, and if you're a working stiff you get the income tax deducted at source from your paycheck.
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Midwest_Doc Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. Single Payer is Best ...
...and that single payer should be the federal government. Most insurance companies are for-profit corporations. Part of every health care dollar spent goes to paying dividends to corporate shareholders. By eliminating the for-profit insurance companies, and replacing them a single federal agency, billions of dollars would be saved... AND the quality of health care would improve; remember - corporate health insurers make money by collecting premiums and NOT paying for care.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Lot's of competing interest.
Corner 1: Patient - Looking for coverage and flexability
Corner 2: Insurance Companies - Keep private insurance
Corner 3: Doctors/AMA - Wants tort reform and privatized medicine
Corner 4: HMO's - Wants privatized medicine
Corner 5: Trial Lawyers - Doesn't want tort reform

Who's got the biggest lobby? Hint, it's not the patients.
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Hammie Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. Single payer is a non-starter
Americans like choice, or as a former colleauge of mine said, "happiness is maximizing your options". Some sort of universal health care is possible, but by some other means. Insurance vouchers would be one possibility, as would insurance premium tax credits.

It's true that you would create a market for providing services to these voucher bearers and whoever it was that figured out how to provide them good value for their money would become successful, and probably rich, (google Walmart). But, people would have health coverage.

The beauty of a voucher or tax credit system, is that you really can cap the cost of the program without putting govt in the position of deciding who gets what treatment, the market can decide that based on what the actual customers really value.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. And single payer gives choice
There is no market for health care, because no one wants to be sick. A truly market based system would have a multimillion dollar burn unit sitting around idle until Bill Gates or Paul Allen got into a car wreck.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. No vouchers needed.. You get sick, you go to AN Y doctor
you show your card, you get treated, you go home.. Easy as pie..

The system we have now, is hopelessly broken..

health care should not be a "business".. it should be a birthright in the "richest country on earth".. Other countries have figeured it out..our pols are just too greedy to do what's best for the people..

They play word games instead to make the most gullible amongst us actually believe that single payer nationalized health care is bad..

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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Tell that...
to the Doctors (AMA), Lawyers, and Insurers.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 05:25 AM
Response to Original message
13. Screed on arguing about health care
Arguing about health care
eridani@scn.org

Effectively convincing people who haven't spent much time thinking about health care policy requires countering the blather that the likes of Harry and Louise have been using to make people in the US afraid that however bad the current situation is, change is too scary and government is bad anyway. The market is good, no matter what problem you are addressing. A way to effectively counter this attitude occurred to me after listening to Dennis Kucinich speak in Seattle. Talking about his universal health care plan, he said, "The market has failed!" three times, with an invitation to the crowd to join in, which people mostly did. He was, of course, preaching to the choir. This is a slogan that will cut no ice with the "market good, government bad" crowd, and it caused me to think about the various ways in which it could be taken.

Obviously, what Kucinich meant was that the market has failed to deliver health care, but the statement taken plain could also be seen to refer to markets in general. In that case, anyone who bought a computer ten years ago and has upgraded recently (and who almost certainly doesn't spend any time on being a health care policy wonk) is going to think "What on earth is this idiot ranting about?"

Clearly the markets for health care and the market for computers are pretty different. If you ask free market believers what governments should be doing, they will often say something like "Roads and police and firefighting are legitimate government occupations because that is infrastructure." What we need to do is to present a good case that health care is infrastructure too. Almost no one will argue that government should have no role in creating and maintaining infrastructure, other than a few Libertarian hard cases whose arguments are ignored by average citizens anyway. Health insurance paid for by individual is extremely expensive, and people who pay that way commonly feel ripped off because after they pay, they never see a penny of it. But if health care is infrastructure, it is analogous to police and fire protection. These services are also expensive, but do people feel that if their houses don't burn down and they don't get assaulted or robbed, the property taxes paying for these services are a ripoff? Should the expenses for these services be paid only by the people who are immediately served by them? Obviously not.

The slogan "Health care is infrastructure" beats "Health care is a right" as well. The latter makes people think of endlessly inflating entitlements that will drive the country into bankruptcy and still not satisfy everyone. Saying that health care is infrastructure not only directly and inevitably implies that health care is a right, but it gets people thinking about the issue in the most productive manner, namely as active citizens responsible for helping to determine public policy.

The reality is that health care providers and firefighters are very similar in an economic sense. Computer makers want to sell more computers, and people always want more memory, more bandwidth and more speed, but people would rather not get sick and rather not have their houses burn, but want effective help fast should those things happen. Imagine a city with three or four fire departments, paid for by dozens of different employer insurance schemes plus a few subsidized plans for the poor which a lot of low income people earn too much money to qualify for. A real mess, right? The firefighting equipment has to be duplicated several times, and the private insurance is always shifting around with employment patterns.("Whaddya mean you won't send a truck out? My employer turned in the new insurance paperwork last week!" "I'm sorry sir, but you must still be with Company X. We don't have you in our records.") And you'd also have a bunch of sorryass parasites sitting around trying to calculate which zip codes are likely to have the most fires, so they can stick their unlucky inhabitants with higher fees. Also each company would adjust prices dramatically upward to include profits as well.

Since no city in real life is actually stupid enough to have several different fire departments, there is no way of comparing that hypothetical situation with the current state of affairs in the provision of health care. But this was not always the case. There used to be private fire departments, and markers designating fire protection eligibility can still be found in antique shops. If your neighbor's house caught fire from the cinders of your fire, your personal firefighting service would just let the other house burn. If there was a dispute about coverage, competing services would often spray more water on each other than on the fire. (Before the revolutionary war, that well-known commie rat bastard Benjamin Franklin put a stop to this practice with America's first public fire department in Philadelphia.)

We do know what happens to health care prices in towns with more than one hospital compared to towns of similar size with only one hospital-namely that the more hospitals, the more expensive health care is. And it's perfectly obvious why-if you think about the proper economic analogy, namely that of the fire department. And it's exactly the opposite of what happens with restaurants, barbers and computer manufacturers-more of those means better and cheaper products and services. Since firefighting is paid for as a public investment, they'll go to a house of $100,000 assessed valuation just as rapidly as one with a million dollar valuation, even though the property taxes are higher in the latter case. People in wealthy areas may have some overall service advantages, but the difference is trivial compared to the difference between people with and without health insurance. In addition, the fees would be jacked up even higher to include as much profit as possible.

Competition actually degrades performance directly as well. The single most important factor in determining your chances of surviving a complex operation is the number of those operations previously performed in that hospital. Divide the number of operations by the number of similar facilities in town, and you have calculated the relative incompetence factor. The same goes for firefighters-they keep their skills up by practicing on buildings slated for demolition that have been set on fire, or on fire towers which have serious restrictions as to where they can be located. Therefore there are limited numbers of these, and dividing them up among competing departments would mean that everyone would have lower skill levels. Compare this with computers, where sales and product improvement efforts mean more computers are made and sold. Somehow you just can't sell people on the virtues of having more heart attacks and house fires, so more competitors means less real-life practice for everyone.

In one respect, public payment for health insurance is more like paying for roads than firefighters. Just as roadbuilding is paid for by the public but almost always contracted out to private outfits, medical providers would continue to be private operators even though publicly financed. Road maintenance is done by both public and private employees-how you decide between the two options is by putting the matter up to public debate and arguing about it. (This is called "activism" these days, although it used to be just plain old "citizenship.")

That firefighting is a public business leads to putting arguments of how to pay for it in the public venue. Service providers will always want to do less work for more money, and service recipients want more service for less money. No conceivable social arrangement can alter that basic fact of life. What happens is that unions and professional organizations argue about the solutions in public, bond issues and tax rates are proposed, and everybody comes to a compromise arrangement. And there is no reason to think that the same process won't work with health care providers. You can't cover everything and pay everyone what s/he thinks s/he deserves, so you put all the arguments on the public table and come up with a compromise.

And this segues into other public policy areas as well. In the case of firefighting, there are building codes and enforcement to argue about, fire safety and extinguisher training, smoke alarm requirements, etc. In the case of health, there is urban design (making walking and biking easier, for instance), health education and awareness, arguing about how to evaluate various technologies for proven results, etc. By comparison, making matters of computer design subject to this kind of public dispute would be unbelievably stupid.

And finally there is the question of how do we afford single payer. Establishment opinion says that the Kucinich proposal is outrageously expensive compared to the proposals of other candidates. Of course they fail to mention that we would no longer have private insurance expenses, that out of pocked expenses would be dramatically reduced, and that we would continue to have the government funding that we now have. The fact is that we are already paying for universal health care-we just aren't getting it. Suppose your electric bill is $400 and you don't have that much. And suppose that you check your back yard and find out that someone is tapping into the line between the power provider and your house, siphoning off as much as they can get by with. All of a sudden the fact that you don't have $400 isn't the main problem any more.

The health care plans of all the other candidates (note that Sharpton and Braun just advocate single payer--they have no specific plans posted on their sites) are in fact more expensive than that of Kucinich, because they all assume that we continue to spend what we are already spending, but should add more to that total in order to further subsidize private insurance companies, who would continue to drain off funds in the pipeline flowing from the public to health care providers. For those who like equations, those plans would cost out as

Total proposed health care spending = Current spending + incremental
proposal extra expenses - x, where x is whatever unknown amount of savings would be produced by the plan. (Extending preventive care, no matter how incrementally, can be expected to produce some saving.)

Kucinich plan = current spending only - x.

So remember boys and girls-HEALTH CARE IS INFRASTRUCTURE!

For a nice analysis of Canadian Single Payer with references, see below.

http://www.geocities.com/stewjackmail/pdf/uhc-canus.pdf
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. I'll repeat: this is one of the finest expositions I've read at DU
Thanks, eridani!
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