Lieberman backs Jeb Bush on comatose woman

"WASHINGTON (AP) - Democrat Joe Lieberman sided Wednesday with Republican Gov. Jeb Bush of Florida for ordering a feeding tube reinserted into a brain-damaged woman, saying government must "honor life."

I'm still ABB, but just barely.

not in as much detail as I would like. If it's clear from a neurological perspective that she is brain-dead, then I do think that the government should stay out of the feeding tube issue. It's a difficult issue for many.

What I hate is when politicians glom on to these issues in order to grandstand. That's what Lieberman and Bush are doing.

Poor woman is truly a zombie. Her existance is a living death.

Kind of like seeing how long a cabbage can live in the winter in Wisconsin.

If you look above, you'll see that Dean has passed Lieberman in NY. Look to see others pass him, too. I have a feeling that we'll all be happy ABB'ers soon.

:nuke: Lieberman

His two fund raisers left and he's voted DINO all too often.

Please enlighten this furrinah. :dunce:

This woman is brain-dead, her heart has stopped beating, the only thing keeping her alive are machines and feeding tubes. Joe should know better; I'm fairly sure even the most conservative Orthodox rabbi would agree that this is a perversion of Jewish burial customs.

She smiles, and displays emostion. She is a mentally retarded person. She is just severely brain damaged. This isn't a dem republican issue.

Lieberman sucks shit and so does Jeb, but I fail to see why this has anything to do with the democrats.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/22/coma.woman/index.html

"If you look at a brain scan of Terri, where her cerebral cortex used to be is a black hole filled with spinal fluid," he said. "There is simply no hope of recovery for Terri."

Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when she collapsed from heart failure. She recovered from the heart attack, but oxygen was cut off to her brain, leaving her in what doctors call a "persistent vegetative state." She is responsive to stimuli, doctors have said, but has no significant brain function and cannot feed herself.

- I was wrong about the heart, but that was the cause of the
brain damage. No significant brain function is sufficient for
me, when you consider that the emotional/smiling at this point
is largely reflexive/non-conscious if the cortex is gone.

I think it is a Democratic issue. At base, I expect Democrats
to respect personal privacy in medical matters, especially when
religious interests seek to intervene on behalf of their beliefs.

cerebral cortex. She is not considered brain dead. That is just false. None of our pets have a functioning cerebral cortex. She breaths and her heart functions on it's own. She shouldn't be starved to death. Her siblings and parents don't want her dead, and she didn't write a living will. It isn't just religious people who think starving the mentally handicapped is wrong. They think murder is wrong too. Do we advocate murder because of it.

Pets and the retarded have functioning cerebral cortexes - they're smaller, and less developed than human cortexes. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to move beyond reflexes, nor would they be able to feel anything. You really need to look at the neuroscience here.

I feel for her siblings and parents, but they're reacting emotionally here. Every independent neurobiologist, neuropathologist, and neurosurgeon who has examined her on behalf of the court has said that she is in a "permanent vergetative state." She may smile and breathe, and open her eyes, but there's no one home. And I don't think we'll ever be able to know whether her husband or her relatives have a better understanding of her wishes.

To say nothing of Jewish burial customs. Once you know something about them, please explain what they have to do with this case, which involves no Jews.

Oh, wait ... I get it. Since Joseph Lieberman (JEW) has dared to offer an opinion, this is now a JEWISH question and his JEWISHNESS (or lack thereof since, apparently, you believe that someone (who is not Jewish) is violating Jewish burial "customs") must be considered when addressing it.

Question: if a Hindu offers an opinion, should we go check to make sure taht all Hindu "customs" are being properly observed?

And the reason was that Lieberman has used his faith in a political manner, much in the same way that Republicans have used evangelical
Christianity.

I was guessing that Orthodox Jews would frown on life-support systems,
but I really had no idea. Sorry.

Does this mean that Senator Lieberman is against the death penalty, or is this just another politician trying to get milage from the tragedy of a family.

I see his numbers have gone down in NY.

With the way things are going, physicians are no longer needed since we have politicians doing the job.

suppose you were a doctor in this case. what would your recommendation be?

According to one neurologist I heard, "Persistent vegetative state" covers a range of conditions, including ones in which there is sleeping and "waking" but no real consciousness. Such persons can smile, react to a holding hand, yet there is no real "there" there. Obviously that's a judgment call, though, and they are trying to establish more objective criteria via brain scan technologies. The husband claims it was her wish not to be sustained under such conditions. There's no written document to that effect, but under standard ethics for this situation his opinion should carry the most weight.

The one thing that is clear: self-serving politicians looking to score points with key constituencies should keep their quivering probosces the hell out of it.

And not one solely of the physician attending to her. The physician of course needs to take into account the family's wishes, but if my opinion was asked, I would suggest that she be let go. The family is hanging on to what minimal cognitive function she has. They're looking at right now, and perhaps the immediate future. She could be in this vegetative state for years and years. The feeding tube withdrawl makes it a long, slow death and that's troubling.

Lieb's usual DU defenders had taken a strong stand in support of Jeb Bush's decision last night and this morning. The talking points were out there, one way or another.

All that crap about the motives of the husband, I mean. If the state has the power to take the decision of live or death out of the hands of a private citizen (and her legal guardian), it has all the power it needs to create Dachau camps as well.

I am supporting Dean first of all, but I will defend Lieberman against the unfair accusations he gets here daily. For the two years that I have a been a DU member the man has been attacked unfairly and his record unfairly maligned.

I support removing tubes when someone has written a DNR order or a "living will". There is nothing in writing. The victim's husband has questionable motives here.

I normally support the right to die, but this case is not as clear cut as I thought it would. At first I supported the hubsand. Then, when I read about the details, I couldn't in due consicence support killing this woman.

You really believe this bullshit??? Lieberman single handedly lost
the WH for Gore with his pathetic debate performance and his
Florida election blunder. This man is the single worst thing the
democratic party has going for it right now. I would sooner
vote for Nader than Lieberman. And as far as the facts of this
issue, this poor women has been in a persistent vegetative state
for 13 years. It is cut and dry, she will not recover EVER! So
please spare us the "quit picking on Joe" song and dance line.

Consider this statement and tell me again why Gore and Lieberman lost Florida and the election. Sometimes people make this too easy.

of the BFEE, his pontificating on the sanctity of life makes me physically ill!!

questionable motives?

Thanks

then obviously, she should be starved to death.

And if Lieberman comes out for puppies and kittens and bunnies, then we should immediately gather them up, put them all in a big pot and boil them.

Jeb Bush is the biggest fraud on earth. When Peter Jennings announced Florida for Gore, Jeb Bush got up from the seat where he was watching with his parents and never returned. There is no telling what other dishonest travesties he launched at that point. He had already disenfanchised 70000 Floridians. What an awful family; I used to have some respect for Barbara, but no more. She has shown her true crassness in technicolor. It just goes to prove that money does not engender class.

in a comotose person, when actually what they are seeing is a neurological respongse or a grimace. I have seen it over and over and over in my long career as a nurse. This "smile" grimace is not in response to anything that is said or done , such as a joke etc. People project unto the person who is brain dead--they want the person to really "be alive" for their own purposes, imo, and there is little concern for their loved one--but most of the concern is for themnself. Letting go is difficult . They need help more than the person on the tubes and the respirator.

Facing the fact of death is extremely hard for some people--we all must die some day but many people just cannot face that fact that someday they will be nothing. Some of us think that we should be able to control that ourselves--in the form of living wills or even inthe form of assisted suicide. Whatever is seen in the comotose person, is a projection--and persons should have the legal right to insist they do not be kept alive for years by a machine--it is gross and it is demeaning to the memory of that human being.

First, the woman in question is not comatose. Nobody is claiming that she is. the issue of whether or not she is, in fact, brain dead, is one of some significant dispute between the parties' experts.

Second, she is not being kept alive by machines beyond the fact that she is being fed through a tube. She breathes on her own and her organs work on their own. If the "plug" is pulled, she won't suddenly die. She'll starve to death over a fairly long period of time.

Finally, I completely agree that a person should be able to control the manner and time of their death if they choose to do so. Nothing is more personal. However, in this case, there is absolutely no evidence of the woman's wishes outside of her husband's claims. Heresay (especially heresay from someone with a pecuniary interest) cannot be the standard that we, as a society use in a matter that is this serious. Had there been a piece of paper with her signature, this case would never have been news.

Is there some huge insurance policy?

Has it been suggested that she did not trust him?

I'm asking because I don't know.

there was a large settlement with several hundred thousand dollars earmarked for the woman's ongoing care. The husband is in charge of using that money in her interests and, as I understand it, some questions have been raised as to whether he has done so properly (rather than spending it on his lawyers). It is my undersatnding that, upon her death, he will get to keep whatever part of that settlement remains free and clear. This has made more than a few people suspicious regarding his claims about her wishes (which, I believe, he did not voice until after the settlement was awarded).

You'll NEVER change the minds of people who don't understand that this woman IS dead.
Marianne, you'll appreciate this:
Snip:
The "partial-birth" bill plus Jeb Bush's co-opting of poor Terri Schiavo for his own political uses have stimulated much discourse in the virtual world. And most of that discourse is hooey.

With my own tired eyes, I have seen people cling to the fantasy that Terri Schiavo can still live a happy, meaningful life even though her brain cortex is missing. One of these people encountered on a Democratic Underground forum demanded that we respect her "will to live."

Son, if she doesn't have a brain, she doesn't have a will.

You can talk at these people until you are purple; reality does not sink in. Theirs is an ignorance so profound you could use it as an anchor.

And this:
We all want to believe that "I" am a tangible thing, hence a persistent belief in souls. It's a scary thought to think that "I" might be just some electrochemical by-product. And perhaps people who are genuinely terrified of such things are the same people who want to believe Terri Schiavo can still have "a life," or that a blastocyst must be preserved at all costs. But let's face facts.

Until we can let go of our fears of annihilation and sex and Other, we are not free to be compassionate. We're just marching around with self-protective agendas and ideologies. But once we get real, we can see that body without a brain is not "a life" and should be allowed a peaceful death.

From a thread in Editorials:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=17790

this can hardly come as a surprise

This story was over 12 hours old when post, and it was posted without a link to the article. The AP article is at http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20031022-1448-liebermaninterview.html where it's dated 2:48 p.m. October 22, 2003. Please read and comply with LBN Rules ...

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