Debate Winners: Kerry and Clark

I don't think Dean lost, but he couldn't have gained much ground. I didn't like his answer on the confederate flag, but if he gets these endorsements, the flag issue will lose momentum.

The race is tight now.

If Kerry keeps improving his message and delivery (explaining his credentials), he could catch up and win it.

I thought Clark took a huge leap forward as a politician. He must be on the ticket.

It is down to these three. Look for Sharpton to endorse Kerry soon.

Still disappointed no one mentioned 9/11 stonewalling. And did you hear the crowd react to "Halliburton." People know that damn company by name!

Really great debate.

Bush is the only person we should be criticizing.

He had attacked less the last two debates, and chosen to draw out the differences between them. That is fair.

This campaign is a crucible that will leave us with an amazing ticket. I feel hopeful tonight.

But when he says things (jokingly, I know) about the tough economy making him have to hunt for his dinner - - I wanted to puke.

He doesn't really know what it is like to survive in this jobless "recovery".

I understand "I feel your pain," comments, but Kerry doesn't make them work for me.

Dennis was fairly consistent. Dean looked a bit tired, but
I found it incredulous that Kerry lied about Dean's stance
on gun laws right in front of him, knowing that Dean would
stand up and correct his misinformation.

Not very smart

I think it's down to Clark, Kerry and Dean. In that order. Dean was hit very hard tonight. I think it sucks that everyone is jumping on Dean for EVERYTHING he says.

and I just realized Gephardt wasn't there! I didn't even notice!

He was very good on Hardball last night, and I was disappointed that he wasn't there. It did give the other candidates more time. Clark was hot tonight. Dennis did very well, I thought. Kerry's hair looks so much better. He lowered it! They were all awesome. GO DEMS!!!!

:bounce: :bounce:

That's nothing compared to what Rove's attack dogs will do next Spring, Summer & Fall. (But, that goes for whoever wins the nomination...)

However, I think most of what Clark said just further muddied the waters. Did anybody really get an idea of his "personal comfort level" with gays...especially in the military?

that seems to prove comfort, right?

i thought clark answered very well tonight. much tighter, but still with hopefullness and some vision.

He just said that it would have to be reviewed as a policy. I also didn't hear him make any clear statements about people being forced to leave the military because of their sexual orientation like "That's wrong!" or "This is something we need to change.". The most forceful statement he made was that people who wanted to serve should be able to serve.

I'm NOT suggesting that Clark is homophobic. I'm just wishing he had come out a little more in favor of the GLBT community.

He went into more detail with Paula Zahn on this - and talked about how some military folks are being followed into gay bars and being ambushed -- said that behavior was wrong and must be stopped.

When Clark relayed the story of his friend who questioned Clark's position on gays - Clark said, if it was your child, would you want them to have the same opportunities....

The Questioner looked like he was going to cry. He got Wes' answer.

It was a great answer.

i think Clarks answer on gays gave an unclear picture about his position, but he partially made up for it with his second answer (at least on the topic of supporting gay rights as a generality)

for Clark to use the word "openly", or maybe "honestly" when describing his policy regarding gays in the military. He gave a very nebulous answer when he had an excellent opportunity to tell us if he preferred Don't Ask/Don't Tell or No Ban at All. I was (and am) considering supporting him, but now I have to dig around a bit more.

changing the policy to "don't misbehave" for
both heteros and homosexuals. I think he wants
to change the policy but there are limitations.

What I would like to know is whether any of the
other candidates could grab the military by the
horns and do more than Clark for gays who want
to serve. At least he would have experience
and clout to get things done.

I hope you continue to consider Clark though and
keep an open mind.

N/T

When he said that society needs more communication so people understand the issues. I was moved.

Every American has the right to serve with dignity. That isn't muddy to me. He isn't giving it a cutesie name like "Don't Ask, Don't -Whatever-".

that said, i think Dean did the worst. Not only did he bungle the confederate flag question (which he could have handled better without conceding his opinion) where he resorted to the "i have black friends" defence, but he came off very hostile and stiff.

past. He made it clear that those same people
need universal and affordable health care,
good education for their children, clean air
and water and they haven't been served voting
for Republicans. If you want to be a big tent
and not an elitist party, you welcome everyone
in, whatever they believe in.

Edwards, Sharpton and Kerry wanted Dean to fall
into the trap of defending the Confederacy.
It didn't work and in fact made them look petty.

But he is going to have to explain it better in the debates. I think the last time he spoke on it he made very good sense, but that delay was not helpful to him.

When you want all Americans, whatever they believe in,
to have the same access to good health care, education,
clean air and water etc. it makes you a President for
all, not just the ones who are politically correct
or agree with you.

on this issue. That - don't tell us Southerners what to do was very powerful. There was a poster on DU last week from the South who said just about exactly what Edwards said tonight - hey, don't talk about us like we aren't in the room.

Good try, but no go.

And was oh, so right.

What network was it on?
Will they rerun it?

Please and thank you.

its free.

Anyone know if it'll be rerun on tv.
Crap crap crap...

...which is 10 PT, dontcha know.

Later.

RJS

.

robsul82 & blm!
Also for translating ET into PT.
Given that my head's been up my ass
all day that was helpful.

On the gay issue: When he spoke of that tombstone which read - "I got a medal for killing a man and a discharge for loving one..."

I thought that was chilling...

I think Dean slipped a bit tonight...and Joe finally did better...Clark, Kerry, Edwards did the best...

Very powerful image.

Sharpton looked like he was in Kerry's pocket.

I am starting to wish that Braun wins and has Dennis as her VP.


Edwards did okay except for his bullshit attack on Dean.

Dean is reaching out to poor Southern whites who are disenfranchised by their own ignorance and who may well be necessary to beat Bush.

Anybody who criticizes him for this WANTS Bush to win IMHO.

No surprise there.

MzPip
:dem:

n/t

What color is the sky where you are?

NT

Sharpton and CMB great as always.

I'm so glad to see Howard Brush Dean III "reaching out to poor Southern whites who are disenfranchised by their own ignorance".

Lord have mercy.

eom

I don't think that Clark is the most polished public speaker yet, but he makes significant improvements every debate. His answers are falling within the time constraints better and he is seeming more comfortable. I'm very impressed with how short his learning curve has been. I think he'll make an even stronger showing when there are fewer candidates and he has longer to explain his answers. (I know it's an inappropriate comment, but it looked kinda sexy tonight.)

Kerry did very well also. More and more I'm thinking he wasn't completely healthy at the beginning of the race and is now really up and running. He seems to be an active participant in the debates by nodding, smiling, and really listening to the other candidates.

but clark looked a little bit better. He's gonna be good in Jan.

Side note: I wore the exact same thing clark wore to work today. Eerie.

he's flat out bsing on the confederate flag, he knows what Dean means, and is playing the race card in an entirely innapropriate manner. I don't care how witty he was (and he was indeed witty), it seems he is willing to do anything to win recognition i.e, framing the guy for rape

but I think Clark did exceedingly well.

I felt bad for Dean though. Some of those guys
up there were being merciless. I absolutely disagree
with him on his CF issue but I think it is way
blown out of proportion.

Here's who I was impressed with tonight:

Clark
Sharpton
Carol Mosely Braun

Sharpton kind of "owns" these things because he
goes for broke, which I admire. Clark showed his
clarity and passion that I have wanted him to
show in the debates.

All in all, I think this was the best debate. The
less the moderators moderate, the better.

Hell, I think it should just be a free-wheeling town
hall for everyone of these with no time limits. But
what do I know?

It was a dumb move on his part. I think Edwards was dead on about stereotyping Southerners and using highly bitter imagery without need.

he should have apologized. The fact that he
didn't boggles me. If he just said, "I said
a stupid thing. I mis-spoke. This is what
I meant..." he would be off the hook.

But still the others are just being opportunistic
by berating him for it.

I still love Al though -- that mother f er really
can turn the screw.

Doesn't admitting when you're wrong come with being a 'straight shooter?' Apparently that's for other straight shooters; the rules for Dean are different, as they always are.

If a Republican had used the same language, if one of the other candidates had used the same language, most of these Deanites would be on the other side of the fence.

Sharpton got something else right, by the way: the reason Dean refuses to admit he is wrong is because he's too arrogant. He would rather stand up there and take a beating than admit he made a mistake; rather leave his half-assed tax plan intact than fix it.

Dean has nothing to apologize for....but Kerry does.

He is untalented and I don't respect his underhanded attack strategy. Why he thinks anyone who presently supports another candidate would be won over by his attacks is a clue of how desperate he is. He would rather drag down someone else because he resents his own failure.

Clark is calm and measured, but his military orientation worries me and it really bothers me when he always encourages young people to join up.

She came across AMAZING tonight. All did very well, the only loser IMO was Edwards. Hell, I even feel Sharpton did well. Dean didn't do as solid as he has in the past, but that was because of the horrible dog pile at the start of the debate. He did rebound later though, and I'm glad for that.

IMO it goes.

Braun
Kucinich
Kerry
Dean

Clark
Sharpton

Lieberman
Edwards

Carol Mosely-Braun won. She is some class act,and in a better world she should be at the top rather than the bottom.

I would disagree with Kucinich--I heard hom throw in the obligatory comment about how he couldn't get in the sevice due to heart murmur.
The little schmuck.

Clark looked very professional and much better than the other candidates. Kerry comes in a close second, followed by Sharpton.

The other guys were kinda bland. Politically, Dean didn't gain any ground since he played too much 'D'. This prevented him getting a clear message out, which is the point of the attacks. Whether it will weaken his support is unclear.

I think the Dean attacks looked petty and small. and I don't think Dean needs to apologize for anything, period. I'm glad the question was early and was gone after a few minute of unwarranted attack.

That said, and somewhat forgetting about the Dean-Pile...

I was impressed with John Edwards tonight. I thought he did very well. Glad he didn't talk too much about his growing up poor etc. We've heard that. He stuck to issues and seems knowledgable. He does have that young look, even though he's fifty, and I like that. If not this time, he will be a force to reckon with in the future.

I was impressed with John Kerry, seems very Presidential. I like having him on our side. He screwed up a bit by attacking Dean on the gun thing, I think he was mis-representing Dean's record and I think he knew it. Dean parried that easily. I also wish he would explain his vote for Iraq better. Maybe I just nissed it. Either way, I would have no problem at all supporting him for President. None.

I thought Wes Clark was very good tonight. I thought he stayed upbeat and positive, didn't attack, seemes above the fray, if you will, and I like his grasp of the issues. He comes off as very sure of himself, especially impressive for someone running his first campaign. The fact that he switched fairly recentlyu to the Dem party is no longer an issue for me. Welcome aboard General, you'll make a fine President or Vice President. I also liked the fact that he and Kucinich called each other to coordinate their black outfits.

I thought CMB was great tonight. Funny, smart, and respectful. She had a chance to pile on Dean, and instead chose to highlight her own view of the Democratic party needing to be an inclusive party. Classy.

I thought Dennis was better than usual, more restrained, stayed on his message. Obviously the most progressive of the bunch. A good man to have on youe side. Electable? Why not? I would support him if he wins. His talk about public service rings true, and is inspiring to me.

I thought Sharpton had the best one-liners, but man, he just seemed petty and vindictive and mean when he attacked Dean. I thought he ws gonna walk over and start a fight. But that's politics. I wouldn't want to be on his bad side, that's for sure. And man, I want to see him at the convention, being a pit bull, attacking the Repugs. He will scorch them. Other than that, he was strong and self-assured. I think he's rehabbed his image in this campaign and will never be easily dismissed as a radical or a wacko.

I thought Joe, well, he was okay this time, didn't say anything stupid, didn't get booed, and I liked his response to the last answer, wanting to party with the questioner. And I liked his line about the Republicans wanting you to think Democrats will take away your guns, but then they take away your jobs. Very nice.

I thought Dean did well too. He was the only one to get piled on. He defended fine. He didn't look angry, he didn't go negative, and he didn't lose ground. Not sure if he gained a lot of ground, but he was on message, strong, and determined not to back down to stupid attacks. He put his views out there, he's a straight talker. And he's still my choice.

So who won? The American People. The Democratic Party. All of us! We have just proved that we have strong, smart, electable Democrats running for President. And that whole field of candidates will be instrumental in turning this country around and taking it back from the Repugs, as Senators, Cabinet members, spokespeople, etc. I don't believe any of them will fade from politics anytime soon.

I think instead of continued bashing, we should all be rejoicing!

:kick:

In the debates on Fox, the questions have been veiled attacks, usually framed to address a particular perceived weakness of each candidate. In the Fox debates, the candidates in general have not had an opportunity to speak on issues with which they aren't automatically identified. In this debate, even though some of the questions were about lesser issues, they allowed the candidates the opportunity to speak more about their vision. It wasn't as much the offense-defense game between the attack and answer format that Fox uses.