Black Box Voting: The first volley is OUT

Go to:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00064.htm

and, if you are a computer geek, scroll down, because the publisher of this news outlet has, for the first time, made THE ENTIRE 40,000 DIEBOLD FILES available to the world, and has backups waiting in the wings. Let's synchronize our watches now -- we'll see how long his site holds up to what is sure to be an onslaught of corporate fury.

Several other web owners have got his back on this, and are putting up their own repository of the full 40,000 files. Will you?

For an illustrated journey through the innards of a real vote-counting program, go here:

Inside A U.S. Election Vote Counting Program
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm

-- Caveats abound, and yes, this is just an example with a test file, but it is using the real, certified version of the Diebold vote-counting program, and it is using a test file created by Diebold. No, in my opinion it's not the biggest story in the world. Yet. It's a neonate, but already being nourished with new SPECIFIC information on what's really going on in the tight-lipped fat-walleted world of voting machines.

Get there before it's gone, folks, and if you are a blogger, or know a website owner, note the emphasis at the top -- these articles are to be shared as widely and as quickly as possible, and there are more coming immediately on the heels of this, and there will absolutely be an effort to shut this stuff up.

This has already gone out to a select list of journalists. We are following the tradition of what has WORKED: First, the Internet. Rolling out to one set of media after the next. It has begun.

Bev Harris
http://www.blackboxvoting.com

nm

Thank god for DSL :D

But since I've been so busy following other stories, I couldn't explain this in enough depth to them (them engineers, scientists and me not one!). Thanks a million! Will give them this link tomorrow.

Peace!

As my democratic representatives, so they can start lookign at this...

At the very least they cannot claim they were in the dark... so your broadside is now in the hands of congress as well...

It's gonna get bumpy! :evilgrin:

On Edit: Don't forget to rate this story! Scroll Down. :)

a reference to this on their front page????

But Scoop has a method and a contact list...the real deal is how many other sites this is going up to.

The README.TXT file on the download page states:

"For group communication among people wishing to
contribute to an online discussion into these files...
(Note this group is for public discussion, it is not
intended for secure communications regarding the
subject matter. Meanwhile we are working on establishing a
more secure setup for the core inquiry work discussions.)

"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/votinginquiry/"

But there is no such group.

here:

http://liberalisnotadirtyword.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi

sign in, we want you there; just started tonight, as more complete sets are downloaded, should become very active.

This has been one of my concerns. What matters is the real code used on the real machines, not something from a public ftp site that may or may not have been planted as a false lead.

(snip)

CAVEAT: It is important to note that the research into this subject has not established that the files we have been working on were in fact in situ in County Election Supervisors offices at the last election – nor have we proof that the back door we have discovered - which might enable the rigging of elections - was actually used in any recent election.

Round number 1.

Read and saved.

--and that's just the start!
It's 3:00 a.m. here now but in a few hours I will be forwarding to legislators and more.

This is going to bust all of their butts!! They're going to have to reopen Alcatraz by the time this is finished to hold 'em all!

If you're wearing your tinfoil hat right now, I think it's time to take it off and don Kevlar helmet and flak jacket.... I think you're going to have a very busy morning with incoming...! But, let's hope this causes a few people to start doing Ralph Kramden impressions....

Cheers.

thank you for your brilliance

Bev

... have been feeling a bit muddled by this--the lack of time to verify some of the stuff in the code made it very problematic. I hope others have been able to do that.

Cheers.

Ah yes, the documents...

I just came back from LBN, and didn't see it there. Lots of people read just LBN of course.

as we speak. If you want to post links to Scoop, cool, but it's kind of a dup. Unless you discuss it with a different angle in mind.

I just read through the articles and it's outstanding! Great work on the research. I am going to write up a statement on this for the Democracy Commission of the Socialist Party. Will you look it over to make sure there are no factual inaccuracies?

Martin

I'm getting besieged with email and it might get lost in the shuffle with my other address.

Bev

Was there anyone in an official position outside the right wing or in a neutral position (if there is such a thing) who vetted the code?

Was there anyone added to supervisory boards who knew enough code when they were buying to know what they were getting?

How loose or tight was the technical verification?

Seems like the perfect set-up - geek code and little old lady care-taking.

Were there any professionals at the central location that received totals from precincts?

There are many factors to prepare for, because the propoganda to reject back-doors and unexplained disappearances will be shot down fast as (take your pice) and it will all be done rhetorically with grins and sneers. You ain't see nothing yet.

You have Diebold employees creating a file with back doors.

And it doesn't take "vetting the code" to see that changing a password is changing a password, or altering an audit trail is altering an audit trail.

No, it isn't vetting the code, it's the county employees...and not only did we get verification, but enough material for a rather horrifying new article.

You'll die when you see the minutes of the purchasing meetings. Clueless, meet Snake Oil Salesman. I have the actual minutes of three such meetings printed in my book.

Who gives a shit how loose or tight the technical verification is when you can bypass passwords and overwrite audit logs? Read the article. They hang their whole case for security on passwords, audit logs, and access. And oh boy, when you hear what the county employees have to say about access...

By the way, just for ho-ho's, let's add another level of security: employee password and access restrictions for remote access. How much do you think a county employee who is $25,000 backed up in child support will sell a password for? Note in the article: I gave passwords to 50 people and assigned them all administrative priveleges.

I got a sample of the attempt to shoot down back doors last week. "No one would buy the machines if we can't overwrite the votes," said one election official. "You have to make things come out right when they don't match."

Bev

"No one would buy the machines if we can't overwrite the votes," said one election official. "You have to make things come out right when they don't match."

It sounds like Diebold is hedging their bets here, allowing manual overrides. These are necessary when systems fail built-in sanity checks, similar to a pilot assuming manual control of a plane. They are trying to avoid wacky results but they're presuming the existence of an ethical technician. This assumption sinks electronic voting machines, I think.

I don't know the theory of the program, but here's a guess. Table 1 is the actual record, craziness included. Table 2 is the proposed corrections, along with the checksum errors they cause. Table 3 is the reconciliation. It takes the Wizard of Oz to decide Yes, go with Table 3. Otherwise they end up with Palm Beach Jews voting for Buchanan. However, voting systems can not rely on the existence of ethical technicians. Quel horreur!

Have you looked at counties using Diebold systems vs non-Diebold systems with similar demographics? I think here in Leon Co. Florida we use non-diebold scan systems and we seem to stick out like a sore thumb on election night.

On Edit - spellin'

would be very interesting. There are some good guys in the business, you know.

May your volley find its mark.

....Their thoughts on posting some of the programmers comments from the code? It's a real interesting look at their thought processes as they wrote this junk! :evilgrin:

and it will be populated with some of the edited comments, anonymized. Any of the programmers who wish to step forward with screen names or names should be proud to do so.

Bev

....The lines "like this is baloney, there's no reason to do this!" and "the audit flag is broken so we....." those comments! :evilgrin: :)

It doesn't reveal a trade secret to repeat things like "fixed heinous logic..."

In general, comments are not a trade secret unless they reveal something that's a secret. Saying things like "we cribbed most of this from the wine project" is more than okay to discuss in public.

And yeah, they did. Hid the whole program, which is supposed to be licensed, in a dll file.

Bev

I'll pull together the best ones and post a thread in the morning!
Thanks for everything Bev! :)

here:

http://liberalisnotadirtyword.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi

sign in, we want you there; just started tonight, as more complete sets are downloaded, should become very active.

Bev

But right now I need some sleep! I haven't slept more than two or three hours a night for the last week! :) The BEST is yet to come.

San Francisco - The Electronic Frontier Foundation issued an action alert this week warning that electronic voting machines installed without a verifiable paper audit trail and open source software programming are vulnerable to election fraud.

"Touchscreen voting machines can increase accessibility for people with disabilities, reduce the cost of printing multilingual paper ballots, and make the experience of voting less confusing," explained EFF Legal Director Cindy Cohn. "However, without basic auditing checks, electronic voting machines dramatically raise the stakes for insider and hacking attacks resulting in election fraud."

If you aren't in contact with these people, Bev, do so. They are heavily involved in electronic privacy issues.

http://www.eff.org/Activism/E-voting/20030702_eff_pr.php

Unfortunately the only way to really make this kind of story a slam dunk, would be if the voter software was changing votes automaticaly on its own in the background. Anything short of that will be killed by peoples' lack of knowledege of programming secure systems.

on edit: yippee! I edited my subject line!

sending "eggs" which could exert control over the amount in precisely localized ways. This is why a line-by-line examination of the code, with a careful exam of all the other files, is so important.

For example, there are several files that have nothing in them but a two-digit number. You open the thing and see:

36

or another one you see nothing but:

0

and in one you see

203

yet they have different names and supposedly, different functions.

Also, some stuff is hidden in the dll files.

Bev

It will take a while to complete but it will happen! :evilgrin:

Reminds me of that old saying: always keep three sets of books. The books you give the tax man, the real books, and the books you give them when they demand to see the real books. :)

I'm thrilled just reading about it.

It's going to start hitting the Fan real soon.

Thank You So Much Bev :loveya:

:-)

take your pick! Bless you.

:-)

The way this story got talked about last week, I thought it wouldn't be the type of story that would slip off the first page so soon.

This story is no bigger in content yet than a statement like "It's possible to rig an election." Everyone knows it's *possible*, but for the story to be really big, like many seemed to think it was in previous threads on this matter, you have to show that it has been done.

I am willing to believe it has happened on a shocking scale, but this story hasen't yet made the leap from conspiracy theory to "bigger than watergate." I just hope there is more to this story. I was imagining automatic vote changing by party that could be tailored to a district/election embeded in the actual counting software. Just having an extremly bizzar implementation is not enough to convice people that something is wrong here.

I'm upset not because I think you are trying to pull one over on me, I'm upset because I think they are doing exactly what you are implying they are, but they are going to get away with it.

From the way people were talking this up, I thought this story was going to be undeniablely BIG. Now I see it slipping off the first page on DU. If there is no "gotcha" that has yet to be released I doubt this will hit any of the major news outlets.

In this article – which contains screenshots from the software and detailed
instructions on how one might rig an election - Bev Harris explains security
flaws thus:

The GEMS election file contains more than one "set of
books." They are hidden from the person running the
GEMS program, but you can see them if you go into
Microsoft Access.

You might look at it like this: Suppose you have votes
on paper ballots, and you pile all the paper ballots in
room one. Then, you make a copy of all the ballots and
put the stack of copies in room 2.

You then leave the door open to room 2, so that people
can come in and out, replacing some of the votes in the
stack with their own.

You could have some sort of security device that would
tell you if any of the copies of votes in room 2 have been
changed, but you opt not to.

Now, suppose you want to count the votes. Should you
count them from room 1 (original votes)? Or should you
count them from room 2, where they may or may not be
the same as room 1? What Diebold chose to do in the
files we examined was to count the votes from "room2."

... and congratulations and thanks to everyone who worked on this.

Inside A U.S. Election Vote Counting Program. <http://www.buzzflash.com/>.left column 12 down.

I tried the link to the data files and tried to download the GEMS manual. I can get the poll worker's manual. Not being a programmer, I like to read the manuals before playing around with the software.

Has anyone else had a problem with the pdf files? Is there an alternative link I can follow?

Thanks a bunch,
JNC

great job, bev. thanks for all your hard work for all of us.

Perhaps include each 1 volume in a single Zip archive. I want to make sure i get all the files but it takes so long to do them piecemeal...

One, the most comprehensive, can be found inside a folder called pimaupgrade.zip

Altogether there are at least 10 manuals and up to 100 documents and readme files

Anyone making a list of passwords other than the few on the readme link?

Thanks

It's so difficult to do this right and it's so incredibly "right"!

Very well written, clear and convincing, and I'm sending it on to oue election folks as well as my circle of activists.

Kudos!

Congratulations!

The page cannot be displayed
The page you are looking for is currently unavailable. The Web site might be experiencing technical difficulties, or you may need to adjust your browser settings.

too many hits or just one directed hit ??? :tinfoilhat:

DAMN I wanted to read it....................

just checked and it's still there
try again.
dp

to everyone I know. Nice work, good job. I am proud to know you and all working on this.

Could someone please PM me with a list of the most important files to download? I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks
sangha

Sigh. This is beautiful. I mailed the links and the story to my local paper which I hope scoops the Gannett rag in the big city next door. The big city where they have been nosing into getting those confusticated newfangled machines.

I think you just blotted out hundreds of thousands potential "Republican" ballots when people junk this Diebold onslaught.

Then the scandal and then WHY the media dragged its heels on a story open to everyone!

If our system had been working properly it wouldn't have needed a VOLUNTEER effort of many people to check something so vital for our democracy.

Instead it reveals that our "democracy" itself has had many backdoors to secret places where things are changed and questions avoided like anthrax, soothing lies swallowed wholesale.

The point that someone had to do their job for them has to be repeated as much as the continuing Coup de Monde that is going on against all democracy.(And what else should we checking in the world of secrets?)

Bev, is it accurate to say that the steps you outline in the article on how to rig an election requires physical access to the computer?

Physical access not required.

Obviously the hack can be accomplished if you can get remote access. My question was more along the lines of whether or not you can get remote access during an election. In other words, how would you gain remote access? Are the machines connected to the internet? Do they have modems in them? What setup does Diebold recommend?

All of the above. More to come.

There is apparently a built in facility/utility within the code to access the system through WIRELESS methods ......

So: .... IF someone had the proper equipment, it appears to be 'possible' to drive alongside a counting site where the balloting or counting machines reside, and communicate with those machines via wireless connection .....

IF they could establish a wireless link with system intergrity: they could not only READ the data, but WRITE into the data as well ...

AGAIN: ... lets NOT jump to conclusions BEFORE there is absolute evidence: .. but IF the wireless facility is intact and functional in the system, then the POSSIBILITY certainly exists for remote tampering, without detection ...

This is a HUGE hole in the process ....


Again: Bev ? .... THANK YOU ! .....

This part of the story will be coming out in the next day or two.

Suffice it to say that wireless communication, while a valid concern, it less disturbing than what you will hear in the next couple of days.

But I never expected anything less. The two rooms analogy for the double set of books is spectacularly effective. And the discovery that they actually have a way to work around random handcounts is terrifying. Unless I've misread it, this means that even Congressman Holt's legislation wouldn't help.

It seems to me that it's essential to:

1. Put implementation of HAVA on hold until the new regulations are written,

2. The new certification regulations are vetted by independent programmers and investigators,

3. EVERY line of code in every election program checked and rechecked by a very robust team of experts before anything is certified.

Are there any other regulatory, legislative or judicial options given the probable gaming of the machines at every level, including random handcounts?

I talked to Senator Durbin about this when I saw him Friday and I'm sending this to him now.

Bless you Bev and the whole BBV team!

hedda

Congressman Holt's bill gets rid of the electronic transfer of data, so if he gets voter-verified paper ballots, and precinct reports are posted immediately upon closing the polls, this goes a LONG way towards making the process more secure.

Immediately reinstate printed reports at the precinct that must be printed BEFORE transmitting and posted at the precinct. These should be printed from each machine separately.

However, this must come with a voter verified paper trail that IS USED to verify accuracy.

The following information, found in their documentation, makes me very nervous: In a section dealing with modem security, it says the county precinct results are "reconciled" with the precinct totals. If this is a procedure where a nice gray-haired lady compares the printout from the county with the printout from the precinct, that's good, but if that's the case, what is it doing in the technical documentation on modem functions? If this "reconciliation" takes place electronically, that is technobabble for sending a message from Host machine to local precinct that changes the precinct data.

I found very murky instructions about printing reports at the precinct. One said print before transmission, another (a photo brochure given to pollworkers) diagrams making transmission before printing.

Add to this: Many states are not making precinct reports available to candidates on election night.

Some of the computer back doors require weak implementation of procedural safeguards in order to be effective.

However -- the next area of inquiry, which is why the most important thing that was done last night was release of the 40,000 files by Scoop New Zealand, is to evaluate the potential for remote access to touch screen vote repositories prior to reporting. That's what has many of the top level computer scientists really worried.

Bev

"CAVEAT: It is important to note that the research into this subject has not established that the files we have been working on were in fact in situ in County Election Supervisors offices at the last election – nor have we proof that the back door we have discovered - which might enable the rigging of elections - was actually used in any recent election. However it is the considered opinion of all those involved in this investigation that it is not up to us as journalists or programmers to prove that elections were rigged, rather it is a responsibility of the electoral system itself to prove its integrity.

"What you read here amounts to revelation of evidence of motive, opportunity, method, prior conduct , and a variety of items of, consistent unexplained circumstantial evidence . Significantly we do not believe we have sufficient resources to complete this investigation to its conclusion and are therefore making available our findings to the media, community organisations, political parties, computer scientists and geeks in the anticipation that they will pick up the torch and take extend this inquiry into every county in the United States."

I had to cut and paste that here to read it. :(

You can boost the text size by going into the "View" menu in IE and increasing the size of the font. For some reason, Scoop defaults to the smallest text size. I boosted it up a size when I hit the caveat and it made a big difference.

hedda

there is an editorial (which contains the first public links to all 40,000 Diebold files; that's what I feel is the most important part of the whole thing, actually)

and an illustrated article about how to bypass passwords, change audit logs, and overwrite votes

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm

If sending to congresspeople etc., folks, choose the second one (the link above) not the editorial.

editorial = someone's opinion
illustrated article = real world security flaws

to put it all together for a truthout article tonight. Scoop shouldn't complain - they grab my stuff all the time. :)

PS, Bev: OUTSTANDING work.

That way you can scoop Scoop :)

Bev

... Both you and Will should consider burning up the airwaves on this issue -- I can think of nothing more antithetical to this democracy than the hijacking of an American's right to vote. Or as Thomas Paine put it:

"The right of voting for representatives is the primary right by which all other rights are protected. To take away this right is to reduce a man to slavery."

Not at all to impune Bev's work but to provide background and to facilitate the work of your techies, Will Pitt, please check out some of the other sources of information on this subject. I posted a few links in the What Will Republican Say ...? thread.

Specifically, everyone would do well to read Dill's discussion of some of the arguments and counterarguments that recently have been aired regarding this issue.

See, for example, Dill/Verified Voting's 5th Newsletter:
http://verify.stanford.edu/EVOTE/NEWSLETTERS/v1n5.html

and FAQ page:
http://www.verifiedvoting.org/drefaq.asp

Dr. Rebecca Mercuri, along with Dr. Neumann, are two of the foremost researchers in the field. Dr. Mercuri has compiled what may be the most comprehensive repository of information on the web on this topic, and her credentials are stellar. She's been working on the issue for 14 years. We spoke at length this weekend. She has been saying EXACTLY that this kind of problem is likely, given her own analysis of the voting machines.

http://www.notablesoftware.com

Dr. David Dill, links above, is also a top expert in the field. We spoke last week. He said he hopes he can arrange to have students go over the code line by line. He also reported a shocking unresponsiveness on the part of the certifiers, both Wyle Labs and Ciber, who refused to answer questions posed by the state of California about their testing of these machines.

Another expert, not in the news as much, but quite brilliant, is Dr. Douglas Jones from Iowa. He has congressional testimony online that also predicts many of the security flaws we are uncovering.

Testimony before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Science, May 22, 2001; “Problems with Voting Systems and the Applicable Standards by Douglas W. Jones, University of Iowa Associate Professor and Former Chair of the Iowa Board of Examiners for Voting Machines and Electronic Voting Systems. http://www.house.gov/science/full/may22/jones.htm

Bev Harris

Bev,

Good to hear the update regarding Dill and Mercuri, and it's great to learn that Dill will have a crew to go over the code.

Mercuri and Neumann have been THE voices of reason on this issue for so many years. Mercuri's site is so deep that it requires a real commitment of time to go through in earnest; but that time is well spent.

I would assume that until the legal status of the 40,000 files is clear, he will not be able to make such an assignment. That was just a comment he made to me, not an official position.

The information on certifiers from Dr. Dill is available on a report just published -- I'm sorry I don't have the link, it would be great if someone can post it.

Basically, the certifiers were sent a short list of questions from the California Task Force and replied to the effect of "this is such a small part of our work that we can't be bothered to take the time to reply." I believe Dr. Dill sent some follow up questions along, which were ignored.

Bev

The CA Task Force report is available here:

http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/taskforce_report.htm

To submit comments, go here:
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/taskforce.htm

(link via Verified Voting: http://www.verifiedvoting.org/)

____

Guess I read too quickly regarding Dill's review of the code. Hope he (and everyone else) obtains legal clearance.



Monica

to some NSA vets on my mailing list.

I just sent it out to my State Rep Ernesto Scorsone with instructions to send it to my cousin who is also a state rep, and member of the Gang Of Six, a group of very influential women Democratic lawmakers in Frankfort Ky.

....we are in the same district (Lx. here).....just wanted to let you know that Don Blevins is aware....I also have contacted the appropriate individuals within Chandlers campaign as well as Susan Westrom....Susan has assigned the project to an engineer within the party as well.....best wishes

I have some people in Illinois involved. I just got their reply back. They are calling everyone and filling them in on this scandal.

thanks for the PM.

The author of those Baltimore City Papers articles, a local legal publication, and will forward to everyone I know a little later.

Fantastic work, everyone.

And to the naysayers: blpblpblpblpblpblpblp (raspberries) :evilgrin:

Eloriel

"And to the naysayers: blpblpblpblpblpblpblp (raspberries)"

I haven't changed my mind one bit. I think the story shows that the big lead in was vastly overhyped. I believe Bev and her staff and/or friends have performed a good public service by looking into this issue. I do agree that there should be a real audit trail of some sort that allows for spotchecking and verification so we know these machines are giving us accurate results. But this story is NOT earthshattering by any stretch of the imagination - nor did it warrant the days and weeks of hype.

First, with caveats like what I am reading, it is hard for me to understand why anyone would want to kill Bev or threaten her life in any way. I do not see how this is anywhere near the level of the Pentagon Papers or 1776. This story will not bring down any Republicans. I doubt if the story will bring down anyone anywhere. I am almost willing to bet that this will hardly even be anything more than a nuisance story to Diebold (or any other company). As someone I read in a previous thread once predicted - "there just isn't any there there".

"CAVEAT: It is important to note that the research into this subject has not established that the files we have been working on were in fact in situ in County Election Supervisors offices at the last election – nor have we proof that the back door we have discovered - which might enable the rigging of elections - was actually used in any recent election. However it is the considered opinion of all those involved in this investigation that it is not up to us as journalists or programmers to prove that elections were rigged, rather it is a responsibility of the electoral system itself to prove its integrity...."

What I see is a theory created from files that may not even be the ones currently in use. Further, this backdoor just "might" be able to be used to rig elections? Do we even know for certain if the backdoor could be used for this purpose. I mean, do we have any real facts? Lastly, I see where there is no evidence that this backdoor has ever actually been used to rig elections. So there is no actual proof of anything significant - no wrongdoing, no conspiracy, no crime - just a theory that the voting machines MIGHT be able to be tampered with. I mean come on, most poeple instinctively know that computers could be tampered with. Some real evidence of such tampering, or obvious means created to allow for dishonesty must be clearly demonstrated before too many people in the mainstream will give a hoot.

This story gets its first big run on Scoop New Zealand? This is a news site that doesn't fact check anything? This same news site ran a total hoax story about K. Harris being dead. So Scoop New Zealand is not much more than a collection of interesting links taken anywhere from the internet? I hope that isn't the only media outlet that is set to run with this. Is there any US media - something even remotely mainstream that plans to carry this story?

Lastly, if this were really a big deal, why not work with some organization like the DNC or ACLU till the story is fleshed out further. I am sure that they would quickly have known whether the story was of such significance that someone might be killed over it.

With expectations set so high, I would have thought there would have been something other than just a theory.

Imajika

Many folks are doing just that.

If you won't accept the work of people who are studying the issue right now, and who have been doing so for years, I guess you'll just have to wait until more traditional outlets finally pick up on the problem.

>"Lastly, I see where there is no evidence that this backdoor has ever actually been used to rig elections. So there is no actual proof of anything significant - no wrongdoing, no conspiracy, no crime - just a theory that the voting machines MIGHT be able to be tampered with."

You underestimate the importance of the risk to the integrity of the voting process that DREs present when you set up your argument as demanding ONLY and exclusively the proof of fraud.

Please check out some of the links provided to other work being done on the issues of voting technologies.

I agree that the this story is not nearly as big as it is being hyped to be. There is no evidence that any election was actually rigged by the flaw discovered by Bev and everyone else. In order to prove that, Bev will have to gather much more evidence than simple proof that the system can be rigged. After all, every single paper ballot system used today can easily be rigged. Are we going to hold those systems to the same "it is a responsibility of the electoral system itself to prove its integrity...." standard? I think not.

However, I think this will be much more than a nuisance story to Diebold. As a person that has worked on cryptographic systems for several years now, the things that I have seen in the code are completely unforgivable. Its clear that Diebold made no attempt to follow even the most fundamental rule of security systems, that security through obscurity doesn't work. They rely almost entirely on the notion that a person trying to hack their system will not have inside knowledge of how their system works. As the presence of their code on a public FTP site has demonstrated, that's a very bad assumption.

Furthermore, I am a bit more convinced of the importance of this story than you are. I believe that demonstrating the fundamental flaws of the Diebold system will spur important changes in the law regarding testing and mandating paper audit trails. Sure, Bev and other are overhyping this, but I believe that is merely the natural result of working so hard and so long on something. People need to feel that they are making a difference and making an important contribution. Indeed, if we see the changes that I hope to see, they are.

....which seems to indicate that you feel comfortable with more security being attached to common video games than is employed by the process used to select the person in charge of the most powerful military forces on earth. It's a shame that so many people lack the intellect, or even the desire, to understand the implications of what someone fraudulently elected to office could do with that sort of power. :(

If someone were to fraudulently obtain office, what would stop them from inciting the public into a phony war against a defenseless 'enemy' with the real purpose of stealing all of their natural resources? :shrug:

Oh! Wait......Never mind. :evilgrin:

Its really tiring to be attacked by people that you agree with 80%. I feel like you guys are part of some mindless cult that demand absolute agreement on everything. Did I say that I was "comfortable with more security being attached to common video games than is employed by the process used to select the person in charge of the most powerful military forces on earth"? No.

What I do believe that when people say this is going to be "as big as the Pentagon Papers" they are seriously over representing what has been discovered. What has been discovered up to this point is a product flaw. If it can be shown that the product flaw was exploited and actually changed the outcome of an election, then we would have something that is as big as the Pentagon papers. Unfortunately, Bev has proven that we are unlikely to be able to prove such charges because it is so easy to cover your tracks after hacking the system. In a sense, she herself has proven that proving election fraud on these systems is impossible.

FYI, you couldn't even get your analogy right, given that the security used by Diebold is exactly like the security used to protect computer games--i.e. security that can easily be hacked by an insider.

Call me hyperbolic. I see this as way more than "a product flaw."

This isn't an errant bit of code, a mistake, a bug, a glitch. This is a deliberate effort to make it possible to throw an election.

DID they? Bring us the election results (us being Bev&Crew) and then we'll all know for sure, won't we?

Btw, how do YOU account for 3 different Republicans in ONE county in TX in 2002 winning their elections by exactly 18,181 votes?

Eloriel

...you're not a programmer.

The stuff I saw in the code was not a delibrate effort to allow people to hack elections, it was laziness plain and simple. A person that wanted to allow election hacks would have been a lot more careful to cover their tracks and provide something less obvious than changing values in a database.

As for your TX question, are you refering to victories by Judge Danny Scheel, State Senator Jeff Wentworth, and Rep. Carter Casteel?

Somehow I bet not. Did you even read the articles?

A person that wanted to allow election hacks would have been a lot more careful to cover their tracks and provide something less obvious than changing values in a database.


Laziness built 2, 3 sets of "books" which store election results? Strange kind of laziness.

As for covering their tracks, I remember something Bev said a few weeks ago. Remember she has some auditing experience -- unwinding accounting issues in search of fraud and embezzlement, IIRC. In any case, what she said was that people who have intent to defraud are usually quite arrogant. Arrogant enough to leave trails.

Eloriel

Do you remember that we discussed the election and how it was rigged and they used "three" of something to rig it.

Can someone locate some of those old message threads.

We were discussing 3 as the numerator.

....based in part on the knowledge of what is actually in the code. :)
I never said you, personally felt that way and I'm sorry if you took it that way. Perhaps I could have expressed it better.

The fact remains that some people do feel that it's 'no big thing' to have anything less than the very highest level of security available when such an important decision is being made. It's just my humble opinion that the same level of security used by our armed forces for communications and authentication should be employed when selecting the person who is in control of those forces.

As far as the video game security issue is concerned, I know both 'gamers' and 'game programmers' and security is a constant battle between the two camps. I can assure you that there is a much higher emphasis placed on keeping the latest games secure than is used by people who leave the source code for something as important as a voting terminal on an open, unprotected server! :)
If you want to get a real warm and fuzzy feeling Google Access + vulnerability, then browse the over 900,000 page hits and start listing as many different ones as you can find.
Have fun! :)

It's just my humble opinion that the same level of security used by our armed forces for communications and authentication should be employed when selecting the person who is in control of those forces.

I agree.

Is that clear enough for you?

Jeez, sometimes it obvious that you didn't read my entire post...

....just defending the conclusions of dozens of people who spent thousands of unpaid hours to examine the issue first hand. Many of us put our lives on hold for weeks or months on end to evaluate the real story behind the 'bill of goods' our elected representatives chose to spend our tax dollars on. All any of us who chose to participate can anticipate in return, besides a sense of satisfaction for helping to expose a horribly flawed electoral system, is an increased risk of retribution, lawsuits, harassment and possibly jail time as criminal co-conspirators. :(

At this time we have absolute proof that the systems purchased had their security aspects 'hyped' to our reps. These systems, as currently built and used, are woefully inadequate for their intended purpose. We also have a growing body of 'circumstantial' evidence that, while being designed, the code had hidden functions and back doors deliberately built in. Whether those back doors and functions were subsequently loaded on to and used in the machines remains an open question. The fact that this was done at all, at any point in the design, raises serious questions as to why it was done. Thanks to the efforts of a few, those questions will now have to be answered for the many. Some much needed sunlight will now shine on the murky subject of how the most precious right we have in a Democracy, our right to choose our representatives, is conducted.

As for the subject of 'hype' I guess that's just a matter of individual interpretation. The only claim I've seen made by any of the people actually involved was a comparison to the release of the Pentagon Papers. From what I remember at the time, the comparison seems quite apt to me. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on how significant this all is. :)

and claim that you fear for your life because of the
spectacular relevations that are about to be exposed
I think the reader might expect more than the same old stuff
about security holes and ftp sites.

Potential fraud and fraud and two very different things.
I don't think anybody is going to forget Woodward and Bernstein
over this and I don't think Ms. Harris is going to need the Witness
Protection Program any time soon.

Do we need greater security in voting procedures? Undoubtedly.
We always have needed it. But I see people panicked on this
web site over the notion that they will not get their vote counted or
that Bush has next years election completely rigged in his favor.
And there is no real reason to believe either of those contentions.

.....Tell that to these people! :evilgrin:

US Civil Rights Commission Report:(

And this only covers the people in Florida purged
before they had a chance to get their vote stolen by other means!

:kick:

Good to see you over from your side of the tent birdman. :hi:

Good, fair post.

"However, I think this will be much more than a nuisance story to Diebold."

We will see. You could be right. But couldn't it be that Diebold just says, "Hey, that isn't even the code we were actually using in the real voting machines." I mean, it just seems to me that we are actually far, far away from having a significant provable story.

"Its clear that Diebold made no attempt to follow even the most fundamental rule of security systems"

But are we really sure about that yet?

"I believe that demonstrating the fundamental flaws of the Diebold system will spur important changes in the law regarding testing and mandating paper audit trails."

I agree with this.

"Furthermore, I am a bit more convinced of the importance of this story than you are."

Maybe. I think this is an important issue. Here are just two of my problems. One - the near consensus on this forum that the voting machines are already corrupted and widespread cheating has already been occuring. There is just not any real proof of this and it sounds silly to the average American hearing those of us on the left running around making these claims. Two - my suspicion that those who believe that the voting machines are rigged will say and release anything now to try to further that notion without any real supporting evidence. This has the effect of making those who may be involved with the issue in the future look like conspiracy theorists and may well leave average Americans with the impression that only "nuts" complain about the voting machines.

"Sure, Bev and other are overhyping this, but I believe that is merely the natural result of working so hard and so long on something. People need to feel that they are making a difference and making an important contribution. Indeed, if we see the changes that I hope to see, they are."

Good point. Were I involved with something that I spent so much time on and was extremely important to me perhaps I might even act in a similar way. I think I would have avoided discussions of being "dissappeared", but your analysis is a good one.

Lastly, I know Bev and her team have worked hard. I have a tendency to be much harder on my side. I guess I expect more. I suspect in this case I have been overly critical. But hey, isn't a little dissent a good thing?

Imajika

try to remember that we are on Chapter 1 of a multi chapter episode.

Here are just two of my problems. One - the near consensus on this forum that the voting machines are already corrupted and widespread cheating has already been occuring.

Well, if you'd been following all these various threads over these many months, I think you'd have a different take on the validity of the notion that, as you put it (using inaccurate terminology IMO), "these machines are already corrupted".

As for cheating, no matter who and how many of us believe this, it is NOT what Bev has claimed. There are also a number of you who are claiming, erroneously, that BEV has hyped this. That's not true either. Even the "Pentagon Papers" comment was made by someone else who Bev had discussed the issue with and she had the audacity to share it here -- surely not expecting it to be used against her so cavalierly.

There is just not any real proof of this and it sounds silly to the average American hearing those of us on the left running around making these claims.

In addition to Bev not having done this, pin it if you must on fellow DUers (like me) who believe that the way things have been going, including elections -- and including LOTS of vote fraud and vote suppression in FL and elsewhere in 2000 and who knows about FL 2002 -- that there was probably plenty of vote fraud, and don't pin it on Bev. Wouldn't that be more fair? You're interested in fair, aren't you?

Two - my suspicion that those who believe that the voting machines are rigged will say and release anything now to try to further that notion without any real supporting evidence. This has the effect of making those who may be involved with the issue in the future look like conspiracy theorists and may well leave average Americans with the impression that only "nuts" complain about the voting machines.

Well, see my previous paragraph. The rest of us won't be doing the releases on this. Bev will, and she has been very careful from what I've seen in the DU threads where she asked for help in researching various aspects. She knows her credibility is on the line. And, she's a pro.

Look, she's been at this pretty much fulltime for months. I don't mean to be dissing you here, but you have not IMO demonstrated much understanding of the issues (and there are a number of them -- why not take a tour of her site?). So your insistance that the issue isn't that big or important, or that there's no "proof" is substanceless or ill-informed. There's plenty of proof -- just probably not of actual fraud -- but then Bev hasn't claimed that there is.

To put it another way, you're attributing claims to her that she hasn't made, and then ripping her up for those non-existent claims. (The Bush Administration and other Repugs are very good at this tactic, btw.)

Eloriel

how much empirical evidence exists to support a claim that elections were rigged in 2002?

numerous races turning out very different than polls from the day before the elections, mostly on the side of the GOP.

numerous unbelieveably close races. my own congressional district was decided, after a "recount" which changed the total by exactly one vote, by less than 150 votes. for example.

the unprecedented and highly ominous pullout of the VNS from the 2002 elections. this is the big one, the one that gives legitimacy to all the other questions. why? they said their exit polling was not jiving with early official counts. think about that in the context of what bev is uncovering here.

and yet we've got these people who still insist that this story is bullshit, or at least wildly overblown, because all bev has done is demonstrate a hypothetical ability to modify results surreptitiously in an election?! <rhetorical pause> hello?

and by the way, lots of threads at DU's general discussion forum do not, imo, constitute 'hype.' you people need to get some perspective, or perhaps some sun; i don't know. how big of an audience do you really think she's reaching here? isn't DU more of a good test bed, in that case, to refine and test your talking points before you hit the public? when i see BBV lunch boxes and late-night infomercials on cable, i will accuse her of hype.

wow, i managed to get through all of that without saying 'fuck you naysayers.' i feel pretty good about that.

With expectations set so high, I would have thought there would have been something other than just a theory.

Methinks you watch too many Hollywood movies or something, where Erin Brokovich (sp) wraps it all up in 2 hours or less, nice and neat with no hanging chads or anything.

What Mercuri and Neumann had were theories that this (among other things) could happen -- what Bev&Crew found was actual code demonstrating one of those theories exactly.

It's kinda tough to get all the way to ironclad proof that one or more elections were rigged without those election results from 22,000 machines JUST in Georgia. Perhaps the discovery process (if/when we get that far) will help -- ?? Ya think?

Motive, opportunity, method.

Too, I think you may be assuming that this is all they found. Be careful about making assumptions.

But nevermind. You seem to have a vested interest in being a naysayer, Bev&Co. basher and coincidence theorist all rolled into one, and I sure wouldn't want to take THAT away from you, 'cause what would you have left if I did?

Eloriel

First off, I was planning to keep my mouth shut on this thread until I caught your jab at the naysayers. Your little shot at we few doubters struck me as if you had the idea that you'd been proven right and all skepticism about this story were unfounded. I believe you are quite wrong about that.

"Methinks you watch too many Hollywood movies or something.."

Wrong.

Here is my problem. I saw a story hyped to hell. I saw talk about something so important that there was a danger folks were going to be "dissappeared". There were comparisons to the Pentagon Papers and 1776. Some folks were talking about bringing a President down (I am not saying Bev or anyone directly associated with her said that)....

Something about all the above matched up against what tidbits I was reading the story might actually be about just struck me as odd. It just seemed to me something so big would not be being pursued and slowly leaked out on an open political forum.

So my guess was, and I think I was proven correct, that whatever was finally released would not be nearly as significant as the hype suggested it would be.

"But nevermind. You seem to have a vested interest in being a naysayer"

So would it be better if we all followed along like Lemmings? I saw an entire political forum anticipating the release of this bombshell story, and hardly anyone raises any doubts. Everyone just showering this person with praise and adulation based on claims of an upcoming massive, earthshaking story which could result in lives ruined and even death.

Finally, I have said before that investigating the electronic voting machines is a good thing. I agree with the idea of having an easy to obtain audit trail. So I applaud a good public service being done.

What I don't care for is endless hype. Talk of checking in each day incase people "dissappear". Early promises of a historic story without any real evidence to warrant saying such things.

"and I sure wouldn't want to take THAT away from you, 'cause what would you have left if I did?"

Oh stop it. I've posted maybe a handful of times about this in total.

Do you really think that no one should cast a critical eye at all?

Imajika

is that people who apparently haven't been following the story along as it's unfolded at DU shouldn't and therefore aren't aware of the implications and some of the details that have been revealed through the various brainstorming discussions ought not be quite so quick to quite so adamantly insist there's nothing to it, absolutely no story at all.

Eloriel

Here's another quote from Eloriel's post, above, that you didn't mention....

"Too, I think you may be assuming that this is all they found. Be careful about making assumptions."

Just my $.02 :eyes:

<Methinks you watch too many Hollywood movies or something, where Erin Brokovich (sp) wraps it all up in 2 hours or less, nice and neat with no hanging chads or anything.>

well that's awfully funny, seeing as bev's been hyping herself in her own publicity pieces as the "Erin Brokovich of the electronic voting issue" or some such pap.:thumbsdown:

Having one wet blanket at the campout isnt bad: ....

We just toss it into the fire .... and grab another ......

It's kind of weird and cultish to demand everyone believe anything.

Much more credible to encourage dissent than squash it down.

Notice that practically every response has been positive, isn't it a little strange to react so harshly to a few negative ones?

First off, I agree that this was over-hyped and expected just that from a PR person. This is merely a first step, but many more key people will have to start talking for this to amount to anything. No actual wrong-doing can be proven.

I am impressed that Bev & Team released the code. If this amounts to a lawsuit...let's just say that might be the big story. If the courts don't recognize that the citizens in a democracy have an inherent write to oversee the election process...that's a case that could rock this corrupt legal and economic system to its core.

As for your comment about "quasi-mainstream" press...here's an example: http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0326/news-vote.php

And your remark about the ACLU or DNC...LOL! Do you think these organizations are on our side? Honestly? Don't you understand that they are all part of the same party...the CFR? Of course you're free to continue with your "I'll only trust reputable sources" paradigm...but that's nothing more than a sure-fire way to be dead wrong and completely misinformed on the vast majority of issues.

"And your remark about the ACLU or DNC...LOL! Do you think these organizations are on our side?"

...I do believe that they are on our side.

"Honestly?"

Quite honestly.

"Don't you understand that they are all part of the same party...the CFR?"

Oh good Lord. You can't be serious. I hope you don't mean the Coucil on Foreign Relations? Shouldn't you be more worried about the Trilateral Commission? Give me a break. I think I'd rather spend my time fantasizing that black helicopters and aliens from Mars are coming to take me away.

"Of course you're free to continue with your 'I'll only trust reputable sources' paradigm...but that's nothing more than a sure-fire way to be dead wrong and completely misinformed on the vast majority of issues."

Alternative media is fine as an additional resource. But the mainstream press is far more likely to have reliable, sourced, fact checked articles than places like whatreallyhappened.com and iraqwar.ru. I think it is far better to get a mix of all news sources, blogs, commentary and analysis - from the left, right and all other perspectives. I have seen plenty of people that rely on only alternative media - all too often they live in a fantasy world of make believe and conspiracy theories.

Imajika

I guess Karl Rove runs the ACLU and the DNC.

:tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat:

"I guess Karl Rove runs the ACLU and the DNC."

Just the other day some reputable "alternative" media I was reading had witnesses whom spotted Karl sitting in on meetings at Greenpeace, The Sierra Club and PETA.

And don't you know by now that the NAACP, AIPAC, NOW and the NRA have secretly merged into a single entity that is being run by Dick Cheney? I know this because a friend of my brothers girlfriends sister's coworker read it on the internet...so it must be true right?

Imajika

He pays people to come to DU and distract people
from the Bushies true evil deeds.

The CFR has the strawberries inside a voting machine.

Your agenda and employer was quite clear some time back. Rove would hire someone less obvious with their agenda.

More of Karl's money.

Make big money working at home !

Divert DUers from Bush scandals.

Apply to :

krove@whitehouse.gov

IF IT SECURES our votes? If the only thing that happens is that the voting systems are made more foolproof, that's enough for me.

Bev, nor any of the people working on this claimed we would bring ANYONE down. Those were characterizations by others being repeated in attempt to diminish the impact of this story.

None of those involved ever had a purpose other than to stop the mad dash to "proprietary" computers and software approved in a corrupt "certification" process which can't be relied upon to count the votes as they are CAST.

If elections are overtuned during the investigative process, that's a side benefit we never dreamed of.

The discussion, as if it were a REAL possibility, should give us all pause as to how devastating this story really is. The source of those claims should give us all pause to consider what those shouting it actually know.

Yes, we have a winner! Thank you for pointing out the most important thing about all of this: we don't need to prove that fraud occurred...putting questions out there about this issue will hopefully force safeguards or the scrapping of electronic voting altogether.

I like the idea of a level 4 virus that has just been injected into the the right-wing vote-scam machine. Little ebola for you here, guys, little marburg. Just a particle, nothing to concern yourselves about.

Achoo?

Gesundheit.

Whew. Just a particle.

(okay, 40,000 particles)

...in their unassuming way, "Rapid Amplification."

still can't access the pages. maybe it's something with the office PC and I'll have better luck when I get home...

I'm DYING to read this......... <pout>.... <POUT>

well, BRAVO! anyway.

nothing at MWO or Democrats.com when I was there earlier.

Citizens for Legitimate Government
Indymedia

(Add to the list as you see it spread)

Has been up on Buzzflash since the wee hours. Radio stations are calling, yet I haven't sent them anything yet...

Bev

My wife works at a state university here in Indiana and is in her final 5 class's for her masters in IT. They wanted articals to read and investigate so Bev your up. I think they will love this and have some fun also. And it mite just change a few votes our way subliminaly! She is passing this along to the top computer dude and I know he will be interested in this one.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

If you are having trouble accessing Scoop NZ, all the links are at the above address. THANK YOU to WhatReallyHappened.com!

Bev

some eastern European political activist.

You must be exhausted. From the bottom of all of our hearts, thank you, thank you, THANK YOU AND ALL THE WONDERFUL PEOPLE WHO WORKED DAY AND NIGHT ALONGSIDE YOU. YOU AND THE FAMILY OF DUERS ARE FANTABULOUS! This is a wonderful day for democracy and a punched-out, depressed democratic party.

:kick:

I can't keep up with the incoming calls. I haven't yet done the mainstream press blast on this.

Just did a detailed interview. I can tell you this: There are reporters in Georgia who are downloading those files.

For those who say the story is "nothing" and that it can't be anything unless "Bev" proves fraud: Here's what you're missing. Again: This courageous publication, Scoop New Zealand, made the 40,000 documents available for the first time. It is ludicrous to think that "Bev" will examine 40,000 documents line by line.

Now, if we have 5,000 citizens doing that, the full story can be told. I have seen enough to know that there is more coming out. The truth will out. I have seen more than you have, but I'm guessing we are less than ten percent of the way to having all the answers.

What is clear, as Alistair said in his editorial, is that with security flaws exposed, it is now up to THEM to prove the system can be trusted. Never again can they say "just trust us and our crony-based certification system."

Bev

The lead investigative journalist at Cleveland Scene Magazine... she's great.

That response was crucial.

GEORGIA newspapers are calling. LOVE IT.

Eloriel

I haven't manipulated anything, but the counts in these two tables are not the same. Have you looked through the code to make the assertion that they are supposed to be identical, except for manual manipulation?

Yes, you can change the admin password - but you could do the same thing in any DBMS.

do you have any idea how many people read slashdot? :D

i replied with a link to your site ;)

Went something like this:

Do we really need computerized voting machines to count 9 votes from the Supreme Court?

only because it's been a while since I've heard it: It's not a bug, it's a feature!

However, in this case they've got it backwards. These guys are going to have to try to prove: it's not a feature, it's a BUG!

ROTFL.

Eloriel

...Very Good question

You broke one hell of a story here.

I can't wait to see and hear the reaction.

...I can't get in despite repeated tries.

Yes, Scoop is buried.

Don't tell the naysayers and coincidence theorists.

:evilgrin:

LOVE hearing how this is spreading -- begins to feel like wildfire, doesn't it?

Eloriel

My estimated time of arrival for the mainstream press was 10 days, after the bloggers have a field day with it.

Maybe. But just got a call from someone with the bigs, scheduling an interview.

I'll believe they actually cover it when it happens; what we do know is that this is moving upward in the media markets.

Slashdot is having a busy afternoon with this.

Bev

When Larry King asks you...

"In a nutshell, Tell the world what you have discovered"


What will be your simple and easy to understand response?

I am very lost with the whole thing...

mine would be....

The program not only opens the door to vote fraud, it hangs out the welcome sign.

... they are going to have a tough time explaining a valid technical reason for some of the constructs already uncovered.

I've seen a few posts where people seem to think that since nobody has been caught red-handed altering vote counts that this is all no big deal.

I could not disagree more. The very LEAST good that can come of this is that it will be an order of magnitude more difficult to bugger up the numbers again using these machines.

Too many people now know of the backdoors and the quizzical dual, no triple, vote ledgers. The onus is now on them and they cannot afford to pull too much funny stuff in the environment that Bev and her colleagues have created.

So the LEAST is that we've thrown a wrench in their works. And there is plenty of potential upside from there.

No, I don't think the importance of these discoveries has been overstated at all.

http://slashdot.org/articles/03/07/08/1949200.shtml?tid=103&tid=126&tid=99

You've hit the BIG TIME in the world of NERDOM!

Some folks are disappointed that after all this "hype" (which was entirely of their OWN doing, IMO -- that is, NOT from Bev's claims at all), we don't have actual proof of election fraud.

Some folks at DU have, now and then, wondered aloud why George W. Bush could be so brash in ticking off his base constituency (along with those he knows won't vote for him), with some of his brash, megalomaniac ways and fascist policies.

One reason is: he doesn't have to worry about the next election. The fix is in. We saw it in FL, BIG TIME, and now we know it's possible (if not probable) elsewhere -- anywhere Diebold machines are in place. Do we have proof they HAVE or even WILL use their various methods? No, but we have proof that they intended to build in their own special version of "election security."

Many of us have wondered if George Bush would be above staging something, declaring martial law, and cancelling elections to stay in power. With these types of potentials, HE DOESN'T HAVE TO. We can have the illusion of a democracy, while those in power get to stay in power no matter what, and without all the fuss and sturm und drang of martial law.

If anyone thinks I'm overstating the case, you might want to think things through a bit more (or take a closer look at Bush! and the 2000 Election! People who will steal a national election are, IMO, capable of anything). This is how I see it. YMMV.

And wild applause and deepest thanks from me too -- to Bev, DEMActivist, and a small handful of other truly wonderful and talented people.

Kudos!

Eloriel

n/t

If anyone thinks I'm overstating the case, you might want to think things through a bit more (or take a closer look at Bush! and the 2000 Election! People who will steal a national election are, IMO, capable of anything). This is how I see it. YMMV.

Thanks, Eloriel.

of our regime's behavior. Its not just Diebold either, what I've heard of ES&S is just as, if not more frightening.

we could run a little experiment on the recall election if it comes!!!

>:>

I've been thinking a lot about this. The list of California counties that use these machines is interesting.

sending this out to many and hope to get the details into an article for our local rag.

thanks Bev and crew!

:kick:

Great Work!

....is fascinating!!

I know you've been working on this for a very long time, and I can appreciate the level of commitment this takes.

And for a good cause no less!

I got it earlier, but can't now. Anybody having this problem? I get the "Cannot be displayed" page.

Either they are busy or down.

mirrored at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

Been spreading this story far and wide!

What has happened in the past is important, but not as important as our future. Thanks again for your efforts to insure a secure right to vote for all.

And for those belittling the threat hype: These people have attacked the Republican hate machine and you can bet reprisals will be attempted. Why is that hard to believe?

On a side note: Can't believe the one day I don't sign on DU at work and this all happens. I always miss the excitement! (And I voted for Tuesday for the release day--doh, I feel like such a Homer!)

and make them avail... However, I intend to encrypt them first.

Key will be available only through me...

I will let you know as soon as the files are available...

available from the UAE in August...

This is too important to be killed...

Here's the link
http://www.radiofreenation.net/

Give em hell!!

I watched the news tonight, scanning the 3 major networks. They hit Bush hard with the falsified info.

This was a good time. I am thankful for those who do the things I don't have the capability to do, and I wish the critics would hush or do their own research.

not necessarily where its out. Isn't this the website that reported katherine harris was killed in a plane crash this morning. I would have greatly preferred a reputable site rather than a rumor mill as this is NOT a rumor.

and is not easily fooled. That story might easily have been a setup, who knows.

I stand by the quality of Scoop NZ; The New York Times has a worse record, what with Judith Miller and Jayson Blair -- buth here's the bottom line, and I think you'll agree with me:

How important was it for someone to post all 40,000 files? At least Scoop has guts, and that's more than we can say for how many of the supposedly "important" press outlets nowadays?

In my mind, when Scoop decided to publish those files, it was more important than anything else, including the story we put together. I got calls from people at two major universities today who are now jumping into the files. I also got calls from Georgia, where reporters are busy downloading. Suddenly, no one is afraid any more. That takes leadership, and Scoop provided it.

In the end, the data should tell the story. And much of the data is in those files. I take my hat off to Alistair Thompson, publisher of Scoop New Zealand, who recognized immediately that publishing these files was of critical importance to the public interest. And he's not even an American.

Bev

PS: The timing of the erroroneous story last night was interesting; it came in marked "urgent" just as we were editing the final draft of the story, which we'd been working on for days. Convenient indeed. And not the first time a reporter got set up. It's never supposed to happen, but as someone who used to work for legendary Washington D.C. investigative reporter Jack Anderson, I can tell you the antennas for these guys need to be damn sensitive. Jack has a great story from the Watergate era, when G. Gordon Liddy tried to sabotage his credibility by slipping LSD into his drink.

story was probably a diversion, I hope they are more careful next time. I agree based on your post that no one else would have posted the whole program files. I really hope this isn't buried and now that the genie is outta the bottle it will be much harder. Great investigating. I based my final college paper on this issue (using material from here and your website among others). Got an A+, thanks. My instructor was unaware of this issue, not anymore. I've sent copies to various government officals in the belief that an incredible number of them are ignorant of this problem (unbelievable).

I think this might tear down the Bush administration.

a :kick:

Eloriel

We're watching with bated breath.

:kick:

:kick:

:kick:

:kick:

:kick:

Does anyone else think that the major breaking story of administration lies about Niger uranium is going to BURY this story? Now I have no idea as to whether there is anything here BUT the implications of this are pretty astounding...if the people who have been investigating this issue's worst fears are confirmed then is not inconceivable that bringing down the president would be preferable to this getting out? I don't know...just musing aloud.

:tinfoilhat:

... and it was bound to pop sooner or later. The e-voting story has just started, so as the Niger claims fade, hopefully the Diebold systems fiasco will start gaining ground as soon as more people examine the files.

Hmmm ... wonder if there is a shareware or MS- free utility that can work with Access databases.

....a Google search for Access, tools, freeware! :evilgrin:

I think you'll find something! :)

http://www.peterssoftware.com/las2.htm

LASsie (Light Application Security) is a library of Microsoft Access objects that you can reference from, or add into your MS Access application to implement basic form and/or report level security. With LASsie, you can prevent a user from opening specific forms/reports, or restrict a user’s ability to update data on a form.

LASsie includes a friendly user sign-on form that prompts for a login user name and password. Users can change their own passwords via the included "change password" form. Optionally, the sign-on form can be bypassed and the user's network login username can be used. Once the user name is verified, his/her session is assigned a security level code that determines which forms or reports can be accessed, and if data updates are allowed.

LASsie is called "light" application security because it is not intended to be a robust, crack-proof, high-end security application. In fact, a sophisticated user could edit the underlying tables and change their own security level. By hiding the LASsie tables, and/or putting them in an external, encrypted database, you could minimize the possibility of such potential breaches, but you should understand that using LASsie does not guarantee crack-proof form/report level security. That being said, LASsie can serve quite well as an application security system where users are relatively unsophisticated.

What a hoot ....

.....they lacked even this basic level of protection over the database? :evilgrin: ;-)

--snip--
The motivation of the Republican Party in general and the current administration in particular to gain ever greater amounts of power - by whatever means possible and damn the consequences - is evidenced most recently in the Supreme Court's partisan appointment of George Bush Jr. as President, the attempt to recall California Governor Gray Davis, and the Ken Starr investigation and attempted impeachment of President Clinton.
--snip--
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00064.htm

disgusting how they test & stress the fabric of this country.

know anything about the source:

Explosive conjectures and evidence

By Egan Orion: Wednesday 09 July 2003, 07:03

STEALING ELECTIONS is a sordid tradition in the United States, though it's certainly not unknown in some other countries, as well.
>From Tammany Hall's machine politics in the 19th century through Mayor Daley's grasp on Chicago elections, right up to Lyndon Johnson's first election and John Kennedy's 1960 cliff-hanger defeat of Richard Nixon, many US elections have been thought to have had "irregularities".

So much so that it's not really certain where "Vote early, and often!" originated, whether in Boston, New York, or Chicago. It is also well known that many lesser US cities had political corruption, including rampant election fraud, at one time or another in their histories.

Now a New Zealand political activist has published suspicions, along with supporting evidence, that electronic voting in the US is being manipulated by right-wing politicians with the connivance of several voting machine manufacturers. The story revolves around some highly volatile conjectures and might be explosive, if fully investigated.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10393

nt