Can Dean Admit When He Makes A Mistake?

Dean handled tonight's kerfuffle over the Confederate flag poorly, and he did so in a way that raises a worrisome question about his candidacy. Why is he so obstinate about admitting that he was wrong? Earlier in the campaign, when Dean was confronted with changes in his positions on trade, on Social Security, and on Medicare, his first instinct was to deny that he had held the earlier position. Surely it would have been far easier to just say, hey, I made a mistake.

Something similar happens tonight. Dean could easily have pointed out that he phrased his comment slightly differently this time, and he could see how it was misinterpreted. It is, after all, somewhat different to say that you want to "be the candidate" for those who wave the Confederate flag than to say that you want to bring those voters into your party. The latter suggests at least some effort to change hearts and minds, while the former implies that you just want to be their standard-bearer. Sure, he calls the Confederate flag a "loathsome symbol," a "racist symbol," and he says the party shouldn't embrace it. But on the matter of admitting that he made a teeny, tiny error, Dean won't budge.

In a way he created his own mess tonight. Had he simply answered the question he was asked by an audience member—"Could you explain to me how you plan on being sensitive to needs and issues regarding slavery and African-Americans, after making a comment of that nature?"—he might have gotten off more easily. But instead of explaining what he wants to do for African-Americans, Dean decides to talk about white people. "There are 102,000 kids in South Carolina right now without health insurance. Most of those kids are white. The legislature cut $70 million out of the school system. Most of the kids in the public school system are white. We have had white southern working people voting for Republican for 30 years, and they've got nothing to show for it." This is all fine and good, and I'm generally against targeting political appeals to specific ethnic groups, but it was shockingly tone deaf for Dean to respond this way. The question was, how will you be sensitive to the needs of black people? Dean's response was, by working to help white people.

Al Sharpton jumps on Dean and says, "You are not a bigot, but you appear to be too arrogant to say 'I'm wrong,' and go on." (After the debate, Dean mistakenly attributes this comment to John Edwards.) Then, John Edwards stands up to confront Dean and delivers one of the best shots of the evening: "Because let me tell you the last thing we need in the South is somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do." By the time Edwards is done, you can feel his poll numbers among Southerners with chips on their shoulders start to spike."

http://slate.msn.com/id/2090748/

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"I like that boy from Vermont."

n/t

He didnt make a mistake. Thats the point. I seems some people cant understand what he was talking about at all.

I hope Dean and all his supporters keep it up. I hear the public loves politicians who look like they think they're perfect. Just ask Al Gore.

or extreme cases of arrogance...(if you can't admit it was a lie.)

Either way turns me away from a vote. Already get alot of dishonesty and arrogance from the WH.

TWL

as being against the war? He more or less apologized for that and admitted it was an error.

eom

I have no clue.

I heard him say he didn't need to apologize (as usual).

At least that was how I heard it when Kucinich spoke up and Dean responded.

Read a transcript; see the damned thing again. It was a sad moment.

He's also never apologized for claiming that the four Senators were all for the tax cuts when they all voted against them; he misrepresented a compromise bill they passed as toadying to the administration.

He's never apologized for the ridiculous falsehood of being the only one to speak about race in front of white audiences.

He uses the "group smear" against them all; Kucinich voted against the Patriot Act.

He's endlessly hypocritical in slagging the others remorselessly and then shrieking like a stuck pig when anyone calls him on it.

It's tiresome. It's egocentric and pompous.

I haven't watched tonight's debate yet; I'm responding to the exchange at the last one and previous forays.

Sharpton and Edwards were particularly good and Dean was...um...Dean was...um...Dean was Dean.

:evilgrin:

he did not apologize...sheesh....does the koolaid come in flavors?

Some people need to take a look at how ridiculous that sounds

DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN

Remember this when he's the candidate and you vote for him...

You will GLOAT if Dean gets the nomination and non-Deanlovers will HAVE to vote for him?

Wow. I sure hope Dean supporters will cheerfully vote for the nominee.

this time.

After that depending on the nominee i may leave the dem party forever

And I will predict he will in the future.

es, and the south?

If you really think that Dr. Dean has never made a mistake on his campaign that is seriously scary. I may support a canidate but still not become a ditto-head.

He wasn't talking "about" the confederate flag nor was he endorsing it. I wish you'd get off that old saw and stop chipping away at a virtual non issue.

While you and the rest of the Dean haters are busy working your daily craft, the GOP sneaked off with two more governorships. Maybe, just maybe, you should redirect your efforts and stop helping the GOP, hmmm?

Because it's all about wedge. Dean never endorsed the Confederate flag, he never endorsed racism or anything of the kind. He said he wanted to appeal to those southern whites who were poor and needed health insurance, etc.

The Democrats who are desperate about Dean are just trying to turn this into something it is not. And you expect people to go around all weepy and apologetic about something that is nothing.

Well Dean stood his ground. I'm happy about that.

Kerry, Clark, Gepthardt, and Lieberman are just desperate. Their supporters too.

He could have so easily nipped this in the bud before it even hit the Sunday papers. A better man, or at the very least a better politician would have done that.

Dean's reaction is one and the same as his inability to wait until Gephardt was finished at the other debate. It's a Presidential quality to understand when it is best to defuse a situation. Dean seems incapable of that - which is why he only performs well in monologue. He had best hope they don't break the debates into smaller groups, because he will absolutely crack.

Let me repeat an important part of the original post:

"Dean could easily have pointed out that he phrased his comment slightly differently this time, and he could see how it was misinterpreted.

It is, after all, somewhat different to say that you want to "be the candidate" for those who wave the Confederate flag than to say that you want to bring those voters into your party.

The latter suggests at least some effort to change hearts and minds, while the former implies that you just want to be their standard-bearer."

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Hi, Carol!

Isn't it obvious at this point that he wants to be seen as a moderate on social issues. He doesn't want to play the typical game of getting out there and dividing people.

That way he can talk about the two issues that are most important to Americans in the fall. First, the economy and social issues; second, the war.

These are issues the President is actually vulnerable on.

Guns, confederate flags, etc. These things won't win us shit. But the economy, the war, etc. will.

Dean is smart. The others just fell into his trap. He doesn't WANT to diffuse this. He wants it out there. He wants people to say, "hey that Dean isn't so liberal."

He'll still get the support of the Jesse Jacksons. He's still getting the support of the unions. And in the general, he'll have all his issues lined up for him.

Dean is thinking long term. The other Democrats are thinking about this week. Saving their own asses.

If Dean wants to show that he's not so liberal on race, he's turning the clock backwards to 1959 for the Democratic Party. Welcome to Pleasantville.

I have too much respect even for Dean supporters to touch that.

population, as long as it suits his needs? That's been my take on him as well.

One of the reasons I disliked Bush's daddy was because of a comment he made -- something along the lines of, 'I'll do whatever it takes to win, moral or not.'

it's all about the wedgie?

BTW, is that a picture of you?

wrong, either.

...your second paragraph is so true. Why, when Dean should be talkinga bout black people, does he talk about white people.

Perhaps you're all familiar with oft-repeated complaint about Dean's conference call. AFter stating that he talked bluntly about race to white people, he told a story about how he fought anti-(white?) male gender discrimination in his office.

Now, when asked a specific question, he talks about white people.

Curious, huh?

If you're a white person worried about getting held back by racism, Dean sounds like he's talking to you.

You have effing nailed him.

edited~ so I wouldn't get deleted~

cause the racism needs to be adressed with the white people and by making them look at themselves instead of pointing the finger at black people he makes them think about how they hold biases internally without even realizing what they are doing.

How does teliing white people they shouldnt be biased against black get us anywhere?

people have been beating white people over the head for years talking about racism against black with some results by by taking it to white people where they are perhaps not so reluctant to take an honest look at it he makes the argument more compelling to the white folks in the audience to look inside themselves and see the prejudices they hold without the defensiveness that comes with framing it in a black white setting.

It may or may not be the best aproach that remains to be seen. But He is agressively bringing the issue ionto the discusion and for that he should get nothing but aproval.

From New York Magazine:

The Unlikely Rise of Howard Dean

The five-time governor of the Ben & Jerry's state is actually a product of Park Avenue, an outspoken critic of war against Iraq, and suddenly, a Democratic presidential force.

By Meryl Gordon

EXCERPT...

Steinberg, 49, is the daughter of two doctors; she grew up in Roslyn and attended Princeton. Until her husband became governor, they worked side-by-side in these medical offices. When I ask about their styles as doctors, she smiles and says, “I’m a very methodical person; I do all the tests. Howard tends to jump to conclusions. He’s usually right, but he just leaps.”

SOURCE:

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/politics/national/n_8376/

which naturally means SOMETIMES he is WRONG. He is making this worse by not apologizing. But that is just MHO.

BTW: Dr. Funk: The picture of the "boys" and the quote underneath are LOL funny. But I am sure that what was the 'intended' result of the Doctor's remarks.

gepkerwards!

"Democratic presidential hopeful former Gov. Howard Dean (news - web sites) of Vermont, left, clasps hands with Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, right, moments after the televised Rock the Vote Democratic presidential debate at Boston's Faneuil Hall, Tuesday, Nov. 4, 2003. The two hopefuls had a heated exchanged during the debate concerning voters who display the Confederate flag."(AP Photo/Michael Dwyer, Pool)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=650235

John Nichols: Rebel flag flap shows media failure

If you want to understand just about everything that is wrong with the way American politics is practiced these days - and especially with the malpractice of the media - consider the absurd controversy about Howard Dean's comment that "I want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."
…
What isn't being reported is this reality: Every single presidential candidate who is now expressing concern about Dean's remark has sat in meetings where political operatives, pollsters and consultants have discussed strategies for winning the votes of white working-class males. These voters, whose economic interests would be at least somewhat better served by Democratic policies but who tend to vote Republican for social and cultural reasons, have fueled the rise of the GOP in recent years. And Democrats are obsessed with figuring out how to reach them.

So why has the Dean comment proved to be so controversial? Good question. It has something to do with the desperation of the other candidates, who have had a hard time keeping up with the former Vermont governor's fund-raising juggernaut and highly effective grass-roots campaign. But, in truth, it has a lot more to do with the media.

Too many political reporters practice stenography to power. They simply take down what candidates have to say. This week, the other candidates are trying to paint Dean as the reincarnation of Jefferson Davis, and the media are dutifully reporting it.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/7181952.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=76824

Did these SOUTHERN, BLACK, Baptists have a problem with Dean's remarks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=73335

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Too bad some here try to make something out of ... nothing.

Do you remember the debate turning into Jerry Springer? I put them together to suggest they were fighting. They're not even in order.

;) Great job! You should work for the Enquirer ...

Thanks for the chuckle.

Enquiring minds want to know!

That's some great work!

The Iraq War Vote.

The Patriot Act.

Kissing bush's ass.



Sharpton is pissed! LOL

admit he was Wrong on those life changing votes!

Shouldn't you guys be coming up with policies or something? Is there really anything to your candidate besides the vote he didn't make? I'd never know it from his supporters.

People have lost lives!

Argumentum ad misericordiam / Appeal to pity

If a writer is presenting the evidence so that it has the strongest emotional impact possible on the audience (regardless of the soundness or validity of the evidence), then this writer is appealing to the emotions in this fallacy, the appeal to pity, also known as special pleading. The writer uses the readers' sense of pity to encourage the readers to accept his/her conclusion. For example:

"The right thing to do is to contribute substantially to our charity. The children in our orphanage will have little food and few toys without your donation."

Argumentum ad nauseam

Writers sometimes feel that if they repeat a proposition often enough, the reader will accept it as fact. Of course, this is fallacious reasoning since repeating an assertion does not make it true, but it does seem to work that way psychologically for some people. Advertisers and children know this.

http://papyr.com/hypertextbooks/engl_101/logic.htm

I'm so sorry.

Whew. I feel better now. So how does it feel to embrace racists?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:cry:

Don't cry :loveya: .

voting booth tonight! Dean is turning our Country around with all the People he is reaching out to with real solutions...not fake promises like bushmurderinc

Embrace them!

You called the good doctor a racist because he apparently has the same feelings about the confederacy as I.

Do you know what the confederacy was? It was a group of slave-holding traitors who tried to destroy the United States of America.

Objecting to their symbol...a symbol used because they apparently cannot get over losing the Civil War...is certainly not in any way a prejudiced thing to do.

The angry tenor of your entire message actually speaks volumes, but I am not going to call you names.

Uh whatever. They didn't like what was going on so they decided to revolt and break away.

Maybe if some of us had some balls we do that too.

.

Look it up in the dictionary. It means you have pre-judged something.

All these responses crack me up. I didn't call anyone a racist and I didn't call anyone an asshole.

I said I hope all the assholes vote for Dean (or whoever the nominee is)

And I said that the original poster was screaming RACIST because Dean dared to mention the confederate flag in a sentence.

Do you think Dean should have said "I want stupid people to vote for me?" Because that's what he was trying to say. He wants poor white stupid men to vote for him.

I hope the poor white stupid men vote for him, too. Don't you?

let's just kiss and make up

articulate way of presenting your case!

the "doctor a racist", either!

#20 "Apparently if somebody mentioned the confederate flag you scream RACIST."

#22 "You Are A Racist - Are you going to deny mentioning the confederate flag?"

Sheesh.

PS - I'm not sure, but I think it was implied I was part of the "idiots and assholes alike" group. Very nice.

Thanks for asking.

n/t

I was not implying that you were an idiot or an asshole. My point was that I hope all idiots and assholes vote for Dean. Or whoever the nominee is.

Like I said, I don't want anybody to vote for Bush. I want the goddamn KKK to vote for anybody but Bush. I want the Black Panthers to vote for anybody but Bush.

I want Bush to get votes from his Mom, his Dad, his theiving criminal brothers, and maybe his wife. That's it.

No hard feelings.

STOOPID PEEPLE FOR DEAN!

this just proves more to me that Dean is the man. when you're right, you don't apologize. you don't back down. that's the kind of person i want for president. this latest flap just shows how desperate some of Dean's rivals are. and who can blame them for being desperate, seeing how the SEIU is so close to endorsing Dean?

I do wish he would have done a better job of explaining but??? We shall see what the 'fall out is' if any.

Dean has become stronger after each attack so one never knows.

This is called having integrity, folks.
Would have been nice to have had someone like Dean in the Senate to lead the party during the IWR vote.

let there be someone who understands that Dean didn't make a mistake!

And please let there be someone who realizes that Dean didn't make this a big deal.

And that it wasn't an issue for MONTHS AND MONTHS, until now.

"Dean could easily have pointed out that he phrased his comment slightly differently this time, and he could see how it was misinterpreted.

It is, after all, somewhat different to say that you want to "be the candidate" for those who wave the Confederate flag than to say that you want to bring those voters into your party.

The latter suggests at least some effort to change hearts and minds, while the former implies that you just want to be their standard-bearer."

But come on! I admitted in another thread that I was annoyed that Dean didn't just say that he was using imagery. A non issue. But it's politics for peope to wait in the wings for any mess up and jump on it when it happens. Not one person in that debate addressed a plank on his platform as being anti-black. That's where the real tragedy lies.

read their posts and statements for the last three days! It's really quite touching to see how many People have stood up for Dean!

(regardless of how biased you may be)

No, I'm not employed by the Dean campaign, so the opinion I'm presenting just represents common sense, not any kind of political doubletalk.

Dean said:

Southern voters who display the Confederate flag and southern black voters might be two groups that are percieved as diametrically opposed, but they share the same basic human needs; jobs, education and health care. The only way we can win is if we can get people of differing philosophies to stand together, realizing that their common needs and goals outweigh their differences. I want to be the candidate that speaks to these people.


Regardless of whom I supported, I'd be hard presed to find another meaning. Care to offer another opinion?

This from GSS:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
NOVEMBER 1, 2003

Jackson Praises Dr. Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda To South
Statement By Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr.
Saturday, November 1, 2003

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10232



"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of
former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit
down together at a table of brotherhood."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
March on Washington
August 28, 1963


"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The
Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide
us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White
folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag
decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids
don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better
schools too."

Dr. Howard Dean
DNC Winter meeting
February 21, 2003


Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., today said, "This year we
celebrated the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's famous speech in front
of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. Forty years later, Dr. Howard Dean
is reminding us that the great task of uniting the northern black and
white urban poor and working class, with the southern black and white
rural poor and working class around common economic issues -- good
health care, high quality schools, and affordable housing -- is the
key to wrestling our democracy away from the race-oriented Republican
right-wing.

"Democrats were not competitive in the South in 2000, and we have
struggled to thrive, and in some instances survive, since Richard
Nixon and the Republican Party began using their race-based 'southern
strategy' in 1968. The use of race, cultural and social issues have
served to distract voters by keeping the focus off of economic issues
has been the basic strategy of Bush and the Republicans in the South.
That's why they make wedge issues out of prayer in school, the Ten
Commandments on public buildings, civil unions, the false allegation
that Democrats will take away hunter's gun rights, choice for women,
the controversy of having the words 'under God' in the Pledge of
Allegiance, and the Confederate Flag. Lest we forget, the Confederate
Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South,
and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out
how to come to grips with their own historic symbol.

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class
white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried
to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good
that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic
agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of
poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in
coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care,
education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004,"
concluded Cong. Jackson.


I think anyone who's read this who still thinks Dean is "against blacks," racist, or anything else "non-progressive" needs to think again.

Which is why I've said that he could have finished this whole saga in a day and have been done with it.

Here is a former-Deanie (that I agree with) on the subject:

"Anyway, I've seen Dean play this riff at least a half-dozen times, often in racially mixed audiences, and it's always a big hit, especially with African Americans, who probably understand what he's saying a lot better than Dick Gephardt and John Edwards do. It's pretty simple really -- white Southerners are the poorest white people in America and they've been voting their prejudices, not their self interests.

Okay, so I'm cool with the longhand version of what Dean is saying. The problem with saying something with a provocative hook, however, is that you damn well better play the whole verse every time around. If not, if you just throw out the provocation without the explanation and it ends being no different from Ben "Cooter" Jones driving around southwest Virginia in the General Lee.

So is Dean a racist? Oh God, no. This guy has as much use for the Confederate Flag as the Nazi Flag. But once again, he's proven to be extraordinarily careless.

Which brings me back to yesterday's discussion ... if we're going to convince the American people to dump George W. Bush, do we really think it's a good idea to promote someone with the same foot-in-mouth disease?"

http://www.danconley.com/

It's a tough point to get across, if you're white. How would you break it down into an airtight soundbite with the same "provocative hook?"
Someone's going to twist it around, no matter how he says it.

n/t

A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers' blood
A finger fired the trigger to his name
A handle hid out in the dark
A hand set the spark
Two eyes took the aim
Behind a man's brain
But he can't be blamed
He's only a pawn in their game.

A South politician preaches to the poor white man
"You got more than blacks, don't complain
You're better than them, you been born with white skin" they explain
And the Negro's name
Is used it is plain
For the politician's gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

From the powerty shacks, he looks from the cracks to the tracks
And the hoof beats pound in his brain
And he's taught how to walk in a pack
Shoot in the back
With his fist in a clinch
To hang and to lynch
To hide 'neath the hood
To kill with no pain
Like a dog on a chain
He ain't got no name
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

Today, Medgar Evers was buried from the bullet he caught
They lowered him down as a king
But when the shadowy sun sets on the one
That fired the gun
He'll see by his grave
On the stone that remains
Carved next to his name
His epitaph plain:
Only a pawn in their game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan Only A Pawn In Their Game Lyrics

Now, the man on the stand he wants my vote,
He's a-runnin' for office on the ballot note.
He's out there preachin' in front of the steeple,
Tellin' me he loves all kinds-a people.
He's eatin' bagels
He's eatin' pizza
He's eatin' chitlins

Bob Dylan "I Shall Be Free"

God forbid we encourage people to learn more before jumping to a conclusion.

We can't forget the fact that this wasn't a natural phenomenon. Not in the sense that the black community picked up on this "mistake" and raised a ruckus. This was picked up by other candidates and blown out of proportion. And the other candidates are very familiar with Dean's stump. They knew what he was talking about. But I sense that they picked up on this and decided to milk it.

Idunno, maybe we should be hanging on every candidate's words in an effort to pick out any comment that can be taken out of context and blown up.

"He misled every one of us," Kerry said. "That"s one reason why I"m running to be president of the United States."

http://truthout.org/docs_03/061903A.shtml

How many times did I hear that, even though Kerry was clearly talking about the Niger Yellowcake claim months after the vote?

Not just his supporters, of course:

''A bunch of the people who voted for this war are now saying, `Well, we were misled,''' said Dean. ''The fact is you can't afford to be misled if you are running for president of the United States.''

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/206/oped/Dean_won_t_let_Kerry_off_the_hook+.shtml

Which is ironic, because less than a month earlier...

Russert: ...and I'll show it to you. You said in January, Governor, "I would be surprised if didn't have chemicals and biological weapons."

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president. I think most Americans tends to believe the president.

Russert: What did you think of Senator John Kerry's comments that President Bush misled the country.

Dean: Well, I thought it was Senator Bob Graham that said that and I agree with that. And Bob Graham is in a position to know. He's a senior senator on the Intelligence Committee and...

Russert: No, John Kerry said the president misled us and...

Dean: Well, I wasn't aware that Senator Kerry said it. I knew Senator Graham had said it in Iowa. But I believe that. I think we were misled.

http://www.deanrocks.com/page.cfm?p=1&c=9

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

vote for the IWR?

John Kerry called for holding Iraq accountable in 1997 after Saddam repeatedly screwed around with the UNSCOM inspection team. To save his hide, Saddam signed a peace treaty that said he would allow unfettered inspections until the UN saw fit to end them. But he started fooling around about Presidential sites, cleaning out proposed inspections sites, even holding inspectors at gunpoint in one tense episode. As late as June 1998, the inspectors were finding hidden lethal VX Nerve Gas - a single drop can kill in an hour.

It became clear that Saddam would continue playing these games endlessly without the threat of force to back up the inspections. Here is John Kerry, member of the Foreign Relations Committee, on the issue.

“Saddam Hussein cannot be permitted to go unobserved and unimpeded toward his horrific objective of amassing a stockpile of weapons of mass destruction. This is not a matter about which there should be any debate whatsoever in the Security Council, or, certainly, in this Nation.”

“While we should always seek to take significant international actions on a multilateral rather than a unilateral basis whenever that is possible, if in the final analysis we face what we truly believe to be a grave threat to the well-being of our Nation or the entire world and it cannot be removed peacefully, we must have the courage to do what we believe is right and wise.” (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97)

Eventually, Bill Clinton came to reluctantly agree. He sent in bombers, only to return them after Iraq pleaded for once last chance. But again, Saddam refused to fully comply. So, on 12/17/98, Clinton pulled the inspectors out for the final time - not to return until after the IWR resolution was passed in 2002. At the time, Clinton uttered these strong and right words:

"The credible threat to use force, and when necessary, the actual use of force, is the surest way to contain Saddam's weapons of mass destruction program, curtail his aggression and prevent another Gulf War."

John Kerry supported that statement at the time, and it was the guiding principle for his IWR vote. Although he had reservations at the time, expressed clearly in his 10/9/02 floor speech, Kerry made the most responsible vote between two choices that did not express his own point of view. As frustrated and angry as we all are at Bush's incompetence at every phase, the fact of the matter is that holding Saddam Hussein accountable - after 4 unaccounted years - was the right thing to do.

There were senators who voted against the resolution. Your argument makes it sound like they made the wrong decision.

too bad its all garbage.

Iraq was nerver a threat from the get go. They were manuvered into the first gulf war.

He did try to retain his stocks of weapons initialy in the face of the Un resolutions. Stupid on Saddams part but perfectly understandable considering the position he was in. It is his duty to provide for the defence of his country after all.

The US used the treaty to manipulate Iraq and Control the money Iraq made from its ol at the same time they cut off any kind of equipment that could be used in any way remotely usable for any type of weapon. In the process Iraqs infrastructure was reduced to rubble because of the inability to get equipment needed to repair it including medical equipment.

The whole Iraq situation has been a lie from the get go the fact that kerry suports it just adds to the reasons of why he cant be trusted in the white house. He is part of the problem.

I invite you to go take a look at the sanctions placed on Iraq and the effect they had on the country. There is no way in hell Iraq was building anything. No way in hell were they a threat to anything.

We have been using iraq for more than 20 years and we continue to do so. Repeating the US goverments propaganda to try to justify the missadventure that is Iraq is disgusting and politics as usual. Yay to a kerry presidency of more us medling in other countries affairs.

Ill pass thanks much.

I DO hold it against Kerry, but we were talking about taking one sound bite and turning it into political ammo. The Doc here was pointing out that Dean is as guilty of it as anyone else. And he's right. Just more depressing info to make me not want to be politically active.

Kerry's actual record notwithstanding. It's probably better for a different thread.

I can't argue against that. I appreciate your pointing it out to me.

Plus, it helps to bookmark threads...

kerry had access to the inteligence that put the lie to the niger claim Dean did not.

MR. RUSSERT: Unmanned aerial vehicles...
SEN. KERRY: Sure.
MR. RUSSERT: ...a nuclear threat. Those are exactly the things that you suggested in New Hampshire President Bush had lied to you about.
MR. RUSSERT: But you had access to the intelligence. You had access to the national intelligence estimate...
SEN. KERRY: Absolutely.

Missled?

Hardly.

Lied is closer to the truth when it comes to kerry.

Should he go to the Middle East and research it himself?

My Sources Say No.

remember the 'pods'?

:eyes:

Until then, believe you are coming off as whining little children - as Dean continues to rack up the campaign money and support over the two pillars of Democratic Party statism, Kerry and Gefart.

My heart cries for you. I think a nice brie goes with that w(h)ine.

so, what else is new?

Any call backs from Faux or the Moonie Times yet?

Superb counter-productive approach. I give it 4.5 stars.

Julie

but he is not mistaken this time - this is mostly sour grapes from other campaigns.

...another Democrat. Great going, guys!

Meanwhile, when it comes to standing up against Bush, it's, "Yes sir, Mr. Bush! How high did you say jump, Mr. Bush? Thank you, Mr. Bush, may I please have another please, Mr. Bush? Only this time make it much harder, sir!"

Sickening.

It's darkly humorous to watch some of these Dean bashers weep, wail and gnash their teeth that we don't have a "fighter" in the Dem corner against President Dunce....and then when one emerges, they try to kick his feet out from under him.

Unbelievable.

It is his stereotype of the South that all poor whites wear confederate flags on pickup trucks that is most damaging. He also appears to embrace the flag which would distance minorities but I think the bigger hole he needs to dig out of is the stereotype he used on poor southern whites. He needs to do this now because if he is nominated, we will loose the entire south and the election!

... it was the day I met up with a young man that had a Service Dog and he suffers from horrible seizures and needs the dog to warn him before the seizures begin so he can prepare himself so he won't get hurt.

I then asked him where he was from. He stated "Vermont". I then asked him, "What do you think of Howard Dean?" He simply shook his head back and forth as to say NO.

I then asked him if he was receiving disability payments (as he should) and he stated, "Sort of ...".

That right there did it for me Dr. Dean. You really do not give a shyte do you?

I believe that you Howard Dean are as arrogant as the rest of the pack. :(


:dem: :kick: