DEAN: What I Don't Like about the Guy (a Hatchet Job)

Howard Dean is a good guy who speaks what's on his mind. He doesn't hold back for the Repukes and he doesn't hold back from the DEMs. And I respect him for that.

Unfortunately, that's also what I don't like. Talk is all there is. And, in the real world, people who talk real good all-too-often aren’t all that good at DOING. That’s not a compromise, that’s reality.

When has Dean actually DONE anything to make life better for the little guy? Wasn't a near-universal medical insurance program for the residents of Vermont already there when he took over as governor?

From what he's said: He sees it as a best-of compromise of Medicaid and Medicare, with the state allowed to use the money from Washington anyway that seens fit. Great. Try doing that in a city with a population larger than the state of Vermont — Detroit, say.

What worked in Vermont wouldn’t work in Detroit because Washington doesn’t send Detroit enough money to cover everybody who needs it. What happens then? Sorry, no money? We've got to be fiscally conservative, after all.

OK. How about education for the poor and welfare reform success? There's not much of either in Vermont, but what there is can be solved if we compromise on the backs of those who most need the help — the children of "Liberals like Marian Wright Edelman." Again, humanitarian concerns demand some compromise, but not when it comes to fiscal responsibility.

No explanation or heart needed there, evidently. Did I mention before he was a doctor, Dean was a stockbroker like his dad and grandfather before him? So he has DONE a LOT with his life to help others — sorry to carry over his political works onto his truly remarkable career. But this is about politics and America needs the best politician it can muster ASAFP.

When Turd Russert interviewed him live a month ago, Dean answered "I don't know the answer to that,” and explained why he didn’t know and who will know. Sure, he talked about the material he knew, but the stuff dealing with national defense and international affairs, he could only guess close.

Close doesn't cut it in 2004 America. There’s no way Americans will compromise their safety in an ever-more dangerous world. And in domestic affairs, they want a candidate who knows more than just what worked in a state smaller than Detroit. The president has to know what is going on from Day One — look what’s happened to America with the idiot-in-charge we’ve got now. We can't afford more on-the-job training.

So that leads me back to the original concern: What has Dean done? The answers to many questions may be found by historians in 2013. You see, the good doctor ordered his gubernatorial papers sealed for 10 years.

Originally, Dean tried to get the papers he accumulated in his 11 years as Vermont governor sealed for 20 years, but had to compromise. There’s that word, again.

you gotta be kidding right?

Why don't you go here and read up for yourself. Sorry I don't mean to be mean, but this is a good archive of Dean articles and interviews, both good and bad:

http://www.SeattleActivist.org/Dean/DEAN-INDEX.html

And oh by the way, he said there were 1 to 2 million in the military. There are (depending on how you define the military) 1.4 to 1.6 million people in the military, that's a pretty darn good guess.

Bush didn't even know the Ambassador of Rwanda. Now that's a joke.



Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

PSSSSSSSSSt (here's something he's done...) Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

Gee. You’d think more would have gotten accomplished in 11 years. Unless, that is, the state was in pretty good shape, with relatively small problems, to begin with. Then it’s OK to be a caretaker governor. The problems facing America are much, much more gargantuan.

From your link:


Dean's Vermont Track Record

LA Times
July 12, 2003

As Vermont governor, Howard Dean made fiscal prudence and improving children's health care the hallmarks of his administration. Some highlights of his 11½ years in office:

Economic Policy: Dean repeatedly balanced the state budget, even though Vermont is one of the few states without a constitutional requirement to do so. He cut state debt significantly, boosting Vermont's credit rating to the best in New England, and often overrode Democratic lawmakers who favored higher taxes and more spending.

Environment: Hundreds of thousands of acres of forests, farmland and recreational areas were protected from development. Critics say Dean too often favored business over environmental protection and failed to do enough to remedy Vermont's water pollution problems

Gay Rights: He signed the nation's only law allowing "civil unions" of gays and lesbians after legislators worked out the measure's details.

Health Care: He built on a state program to guarantee health coverage for all people under age 18. He also expanded child immunizations and started a program of home health-care visits for newborns. Some Democrats were disappointed that he did not push a plan for universal health care in the state.

Source: Los Angeles Times Los Angeles Times

http://www.seattleactivist.org/Dean/DEAN-JUL-12-2003-Deans-Vermont-Track-Record.html

Let’s look at these examples, one at a time, and consider them relative to my original post — that the governor can talk, but he hasn’t done much, about them.

Economic Policy: So, he balanced the budget. It’s too bad he overruled Democrats who wanted to spend more and raise taxes to do so. Would that be Libertarian or Conservative when putting money ahead of people? Nationally, I mean.

Environment: OK, the critics say he favored business over the environment. Would that be GOP-like or GOP-lite? Which businesses? The article did not mention, but others mentioned on DU include the state energy utilities and ski developers.

Gay Rights: Fair is fair. Every citizen should enjoy same legal protections as every other. That is what a true Democrat believes. Dean did the right thing.

Health Care: OK Vermont has a lot of people who are well-off, standard-of-living wise, compared to a sizable portion of the American people who live in the country’ inner cities. Detroit, being just one example of a place with more people with more problems than there are people in all Vermont.

The rest is talk, talk, talk. That is cheap. Where’s his experience in domestic affairs? What does he know about solving the problems in the Middle East. What about alternative energy sources? Small businesses and their impact on the American economy? We don’t need to talk about them and all the rest. There’s too much that we need to do.

and you forgot the ten million dollar surplus when all the other states are drowning in debt. Yup, you're right he didn't do nothing...


Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

who do you support?

I don't like Kerry. I think he's a fake, self-serving, gutless typical politician who wasted the lessons he learned from Vietnam when he could've used them to EDUCATE people in this country rather than trying to save his future political skin. That's my opinion and it won't change. Will I vote for him? Do I have a choice if he's the nominee?

He's earnest as the day is long. And Dean's a better man than Bush will ever be. So, if the DEMs decide Dean's the man, I'll be 100-percent for him. Until then...

Why would he do that? I mean, we know why Dubya hid his papers but I thought Dean was proud of his record in Vermont. ???

Did you see any link(s) or other support? Neither did I.

Eloriel

There are too many right wing hatchet men out there looking for anything at all to twist into an issue. Why give them ammunition? I'm not a Dean guy at this point -- I think national defense is going to be a huge weakness for him in an election -- but I don't consider this sealing of papers thing an issue. In an election, all he has to do is point out the success he had as a governor and let someone try to attack that. 11 1/2 years of good governorship should mean something; on the other hand, I would be amazed if, at some time during those 11 1/2 years, he didn't write something that could be politically embarrassing. Chalk this one up to an example of the Dr. Governor's astuteness.

.

.

to save his future political skin. Seems to fit this too.

I wanna see them... What do they have to hide?

!!! BRING'EM ON !!!


Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

.

I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. LOL.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, DemBones DemBones. Better to know now than in November 2004. The first article aired on Vermont Public Radio:

PART OF DEAN'S RECORDS SEALED IN STATE ARCHIVES

John Dillon

MONTPELIER, VT (2003-01-14)

(Host) Many of the records from the 11 years Howard Dean was governor of Vermont will be kept secret, at least for now. Shortly before he left the governor's job, Dean negotiated a deal that seals his sensitive papers for 10 years. Records from the two previous administrations were closed for just six years. Dean is running for president, and he says he wanted the records closed because of political considerations.

VPR's John Dillon reports:

(Dillon) (Sound of footsteps on stairs.) Assistant State Archivist Christie Carter leads the way downstairs to a basement vault at the secretary of state's office. Inside the climate controlled room are documents from early Vermont, like the original 1777 Vermont constitution. There the priceless and the unusual: election records from the 1780s, and town lists of the insane from the 1830s. The archives also hold more recent history.
(Carter) "There are 195 cubic feet of open records and 150 cubic feet of records that will be closed for ten years. And I can show you where they are...." (Sound of vault opening.)

(Dillon) Stacked in brown cardboard boxes alongside the files of Governors Richard Snelling and Madeleine Kunin are the latest gubernatorial papers. These were turned over last week by outgoing Governor Howard Dean. The files that Dean decided should not be released immediately will be kept secret until January 2013. The 10-year time lock is longer than the six years agreed to by Kunin and Snelling.

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/vpr/news/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=441887


This article is from a syndicated columnist:

A DEAN'S LIST OF QUESTIONS

Diana West

June 30, 2003

THETFORD, Vermont -- If former Vermont governor Howard Dean continues to bubble up to the higher reaches of the pre-, pre-presidential Democratic primary polls, we'll be hearing a lot of the following phrase: "Well, here's what we did in Vermont ...."

That line prefaced one of Gov. Dean's less contested statements on NBC's "Meet the Press," where the buzz-of-the-day Democrat recently suffered a journalistic grilling at the hands of a pleasantly rigorous Tim Russert -- rigorous, that is, until it came to discussing Howard Dean's 11 years in the Vermont statehouse. Along with the rest of the national media, Russert has so far given the physician-turned-politician a gubernatorial pass, as if there's no political point to examining what anyone did in such a tiny state.

Sound familiar? After looking the other way on the "Massachusetts Miracle" during the Dukakis presidential run, and driving blind through Arkansas during the Clinton campaigns, big media should do a little digging now that another ex-governor has put his small state on a pedestal to use as a national launch pad. And I mentioned this idea to Vermonter Ruth Dwyer, a savvy Republican veteran of the Vermont state legislature who ran two tough gubernatorial campaigns against Dean in 1998 and 2000.

Problem is, the media don't know (or, in the case of the Dean-devoted Vermont media, don't really want to know) the questions to ask.

Where should they begin their background research? On leaving office this year, Howard Dean sealed his gubernatorial papers for 10 years -- almost twice as long as his two predecessors, but considerably less than the 20-year-lock he sought -- determining himself, with his lawyers, what was covered by executive privilege. And so, on a hot, bright June morning, before Dwyer went back to her fields to bring in the hay --among other things, she is also a farmer -- we sat on her screened porch and cobbled together a list of questions the national media doesn't seem to have ever asked presidential candidate Howard Dean.

CONTINUED...

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dianawest/dw20030630.shtml

He must know what's in the paps.

Based on what Michigan's own John Sphincter Engler did in his 12 years in office, I imagine the people ANY governor must deal with range from the greedy to the very, very greedy. Those are the types of folks Mr. Rove knows how to deal with, as well. And if ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker Dean thinks his papers are safe in some Montpellier basement, he's sorely mistaken. The greedy keep copies of all receipts and paperwork. Rove recommends they insist on triplicates.

is Dean hiding? Some involvement in some savings and loan scandal? Some fundraising inproprieties? Some funeral home scandal? Some sexual affair? How about some connection to drug lobbyists? Or wetlands development lobby?

What? What is he hiding? Is there some reason you want to delve into his papers?

I'm not into secrecy at all either, but what are you looking for?

You seem to want to place him in Bush's class with regard to secrecy, yet haven't come up with anything that he would want to hide.

I need to see what's in there in order to determine where the areas of concern are. My guess? Privileged conversations and correspondence with major developers and utilities. My proof? Let me look in the boxes and I'll get back with the answer.

I am sure you would find something to whine about. "Show me the papers and I'll answer your questions"?

How ridiculous. Your motives are in question. What happened that makes you think there was impropriety? Give me your area of concern. Or is this just another witch hunt?

Vermont Clerk disagreed.

What could be in there? Yet you don't want me to guess — OR EVEN ASK! How about the three Wal-Marts that today dominate the Vermont retail sector? What did Dean know and when did he know it? Har!

BTW: Thanks for questioning my motives. I'm trying to find out the truth about the guy so many people adore and go out of their way to slam the other eight candidates for — including my favorite, John Kerry. He's qualified and willing to take on the BFEE.

Cheney and his energy papers.

I think a completely spotless gubernatorial career of that length would be totally unique in the office's history. In this case, the corporate media/Rove will probably only get to say "you questioned Bush on secrecy, yet sealed your own documents?" Luckily, "nyah nyah you did it too" isn't much of a rallying cry.

:)

much like octafish.

Did you notice the book for sale at the end of the article?

How pathetic.

Your records should be unsealed.

Guess you missed that part.

Here's what's in my private files:

I'VE WANTED MY COUNTRY BACK SINCE 22 NOVEMBER 1963.

Dean doesn't have what it takes to get it back. The record shows it. The hidden papers might prove it.

DEMOCRATIC gubbners.

"After looking the other way on the "Massachusetts Miracle" during the Dukakis presidential run, and driving blind through Arkansas during the Clinton campaigns, big media should do a little digging now that another ex-governor has put his small state on a pedestal to use as a national launch pad."

Everybody knows ya don't need to put the gubbners of LARGE states under the same kinda scrutiny. Like (to pick a totally random example) Texas, ferinstance. Got good honest Rebublicans there who'd never seal no papers.

So far I haven't seen anything to differentiate the three--for better or for worse--and I've seen most of what there is to see about all of them. None of them are perfect, and they all have their warts.

They would all be great as president.

As each is different from the others. One DUer said his ideal candidate would combine:

Kerry's brain.
Dean's heart.
Kucinich's spirit.

He or she may be on to something there.

let's throw in Sharpton's dynamic speaking ability, Graham's folksy charm, Edwards' youthful good looks, and Lieberman's, uh....Lieberman's name recognition!

just a little bit of Pat Paulsen just because I really liked that guy although I never voted for him as president.... I think?

Dave (AmyStrange.com)

the question I have is why did they keep voting him back in as Governor. It must be that all those people in vermont are stupid.



Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

I've met a few people from Vermont (very progressive types) and everyone of them had nothing but good things to say about Dean (and they're all interested in working for his presidential campaign).

... no matter who it is. This was all rationalized to me when I objected to below-the-belt shots on my horse. "A little grief now, will only make him or her stronger in 2004." Fair enough.

Most importantly: Thank you for the testimonial, duetsey. I've read your postings here and your articles on BuzzFlash and elsewhere for almost two years now. I value and trust your opinion. I also respect your candidate.

:P

Seriously, thank you for your kind words. They have really made my day.

And I'm like you: I hope that even if Dean doesn't get the nomination that he (and all the candidates) will energize and inspire enough segments of The Opposition to come together, get involved, and rally behind the nominee, whomever it is.

The important thing is to beat Bush.

:hi:

smart, diplomatic, and is into lock-boxes.

while the other Vietnam war protesters were sleeping at the Washington mall:

April 28, 1971, 4:33 p.m. President Richard M. Nixon takes a call from his counsel, Charles Colson.

"This fellow Kerry that they had on last week," Colson tells the president, referring to a television appearance by John F. Kerry, a leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

"Yeah," Nixon responds.

"He turns out to be really quite a phony," Colson says.

"Well, he is sort of a phony, isn't he?" Nixon says.

Yes, Colson says in a gossiping vein, telling the president that Kerry stayed at the home of a Georgetown socialite while other protesters slept on the mall.

<snip>

Colson, in a secret memo, revealed he had a mission to target Kerry: "Destroy the young demagogue before he becomes another Ralph Nader."

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml

So far I haven't seen anything to make me think either Dean or Kerry is much worse than the other.

If Kerry were the same John Kerry of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, he would be calling today for an immediate end to American occupation of Iraq, the withdrawal of US troops, and turning the country to the UN and to Iraqis.

The fact that Kerry advocates for Iraq the same "peace with honor" approach that failed in Vietnam is evidence enough that, like Grover Norquist, Kerry has turned his back on his liberal past.

I think the best case scenario now that everything's fouled up would be for the UN to take over. Get our allies back by allowing the Iraqis to choose what to do with their own oil (read: not give it all to us). We can't leave the situation to let it become a bloody civil war. What we can do is get a small force of peacekeepers internationally sanctioned by the UN and hopefully including some Arabs, likely from Egypt and Saudi Arabia. From there you want a stable government with voices from all factions in the region.

Kerry wants what I described above. His war vote I do not agree with. That goes in the "negative" column. But this is the plan to get most of our troops home and removing the targets from their backs without leaving Iraq in ruins at the same time.

I invested a lot of sweat and still spend a lot of tears on protesting that damn war. I sometimes find myself crying when I read the newspaper in the morning.

Crap sorry

Kerry could have been great...

Maybe Kucinich?

I understand your point about Kerry's continued support of the war, but even Dean, having been against it, doesn't call for immediate removal of troops at this point.

We caused the problem, we can't exactly waltz out of there now--and I'm puzzled at the call for UN troops (I'm hearing this a lot). Why in the world would the UN volunteer their troops and money when they ASKED us not to go in there in the first place? If the UN wanted to send troops to Iraq, wouldn't they have in March?

... make Nixon's Enemies List and sleep with a Washington socialite.

Me? I made Nixon's Hate and Avoid at All Cost List and slept at a Washington Motel 6 before they got too expensive. LOL!

Howz about I post a thread totally devoted to trashing Dean? How would that sit with you?

Your man Kerry's plan is similar to Dean's and he didn't propose it until after Dean.

And here is something interesting:

http://www.opensecrets.org/1996os/detail/S4MA00069.htm

It is a contributor breakdown from Kerry's previous election.

Be forewarned, one doesn't have to search very far to dig this stuff up.

Posting negative information about a candidate is unacceptable if untrue. The original thread contains some of the info lost when four days worth of postings disappeared off GD.

Thanks for the link to the 96 campaign info. The page lists the various businesses where Kerry's contributors work. Everybody knows he doesn't take money from PACs and he hasn't in all his Senate races. Here's what OpenSecrets says about their methodology:

EXERPT...

HOW TO READ THIS CHART: Here are the donors to this member of Congress broken down by industry. The organizations themselves did not donate, rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates.

This is not a complete list of contributors: only the large donors within each industry are listed here (the industry and sector totals on this page include all reported donations).

METHODOLOGY: The organizations listed here came from two sources: either they were the sponsor of a PAC that donated to the member, or they were listed as individual donor's employer. Donors who give $200 or more must provide information on their occupation and employer.

CONTINUED...

If you're interested in how Kerry's doing fundraising-wise in the 2004 Presidential race, please check this page for his current statement.

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/summary.asp?ID=N00000245

what is it?

http://www.bop2004.org/dtaweb/bop2004/default.aspx?Section=DWCAND&cid=4#Political%20Action%20Committees

"Kerry, who is seeking the Democratic presidential nomination, has sponsored or co-sponsored a number of bills favorable to the industry and has written letters to government agencies on behalf of the clientele of his largest donor.

Boston-based Mintz, Levin, Cohn, Ferris, Glovsky and Popeo P.C. has been the biggest financial backer of the Massachusetts Democrat’s two decades-long political career in elected office, with its employees contributing nearly $187,000 to various Kerry races, including his current presidential campaign.

Kerry’s ties to the firm go beyond campaign contributions. His brother Cameron F. Kerry is an attorney at the firm’s Boston office, and David Leiter, who was the Senator’s chief of staff for six years, is a lobbyist for ML Strategies LLC, a Mintz, Levin affiliate that provides consulting and lobbying services."




http://www.bop2004.org/dtaweb/bop2004/default.aspx?Section=ARTICLE&AID=8

HAHAHAHAHAH. Bush takes in more than that from one of his donors in 1 year.

This only proves how CLEAN Kerry is on this issue. Thanks, CWebster.

Now...did you check into how much water Dean carried for his energy donors in Vermont? He was full service for them. Yucca Mt. and Sierra Blanca...why he worked fully with George W. Bush on that. Enjoy.

in your next post?

This shows how Kerry carried water for donors?

Prosecutors can't be liberals? I'd PREFER a prosecutor be a liberal who doesn't believe in the death penalty as part of the criminal justice system.

In fact, I prefer the president and next commander in chief to be an authentic progressive thinker. No compromising centrists who aligned with Republicans to scorn liberals for me.

when I ask her where she wants to go for dinner and all she does is list the places she won't go to.

from one of our own. (?)

No wonder we have no power.....we follow the loser-plan.

Julie <shakin' head>

... and his supporters won't hear an opposing word without going into a fruitcake tizzy, the guy's got some serious trouble. So do his supporters who'll never learn anything new.

Regarding my bona fides: In our home state, I volunteered for Bonior. When he lost, I supported (but did not campaign door-to-door for) Granholm. I've voted Democratic in every election since 1976 except 1984, when I could not make it to the polls because of a family situation.

My motivation: Consider how my candidate, John Kerry, is labeled on this forum. If you want, I'll give you links to some of my favorite smears.

Check and see here and everywhere else I've posted. I haven't resorted to the same tactics. All I did was post what is a fact: The guy doesn't have much of a record and the papers that would shed light on him will be kept in the dark for 10 years .

I wanna see them. Fair is fair.

by the Nixon gang, and all that followed Nixon's lead. Especially when Poppy Bush had the CIA and FBI on his ass while Kerry was investigating BCCi and IranContra. Hia ex wife wrote a book about her lifetime battles with depression that delves into its effect on her marriage and children. Richard Scaife is a sworn enemy of Kerry AND Teresa Heinz who launched an "Arkansas Project" on Kerry a few years before many even heard of Bill Clinton. Kerry is the most investigated political figure in modern history other than Clinton. What more do you want?

Where are they? Come on. I want to see all his e-mails and notes from committee meetings and voice mail recordings and diaries and letters... the whole deal. I'm sure there's something in there we can use against him. Why stop with Dean? Let's look at all the candidates personal papers.



Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

not.


If Dean can't take criticism...

I think Dean is open to criticism. I don't see where you can derive from my post he cannot.

... and his supporters won't hear an opposing word without going into a fruitcake tizzy, the guy's got some serious trouble.

a fruitcake tizzy???????????? I do hope you are not trying to claim some sort of high ground here by stating it is Dean and his followers who cannot take criticism. You seem to think your original post meets some higher standards than it does and these words you use here help to demonstrate this--categorizing my post as a fruitcake tizzy is ridiculous.

So do his supporters who'll never learn anything new.

Wow! What a civil and impressive response. Dean's supporters will "never learn anything new"?? We are that incredibly stupid eh? Zowie! This is quite a statement.

Regarding my bona fides: In our home state, I volunteered for Bonior. When he lost, I supported (but did not campaign door-to-door for) Granholm. I've voted Democratic in every election since 1976 except 1984, when I could not make it to the polls because of a family situation.

So, when you were supporting Bonior in the primaries were you a player in smears against Granholm? Did you spin lots of info with your opinion and call it "factual"? A favored method of the Republicans, you likely noticed. Of course they are devotees of Machiavelli and he is admired by folks on both sides so similar methods among the camps is quite likely.

Question: If you did do your best to smear Granholm in the primaries were you too embarrassed to come out as a serious supporter during the general?? I ask this becasue, what will you do if Dean wins the nomination? Continue to do all you can to make sure he loses?

My motivation: Consider how my candidate, John Kerry, is labeled on this forum. If you want, I'll give you links to some of my favorite smears.

Ah bitterness and retaliation. Well, at least you are honest. You might note you won't see my name on smear/attack posts on Kerry. In fact, if you look real close I've said I'd vote for him if Dean lost and have called for ends to attacks from all camps. I have even taken issue with some Dean supporters--and taken some heat for it too. I am an equal opportunity caller-for-ceasefire.

Check and see here and everywhere else I've posted. I haven't resorted to the same tactics. All I did was post what is a fact: The guy doesn't have much of a record and the papers that would shed light on him will be kept in the dark for 10 years .

I'd have been more impressed if you'd said you'd tried to stop the bashing of candidates. I suspect you expect praise for keeping your criticisms/attacks less verbose in the past. Atta boy.

Julie

Sorry to be so verbose. Allow me to say I should make it clear I have nothing against you or any other Dean supporter. Please forgive me for being unclear or implying that you ALL act or think or believe as one mind.

That said, I am a Democrat. I didn't like your implication (?) that I was't "one of your own" in your original reply. If that's not what was meant, I'm sorry I misunderstood your post.

Going back my reasons for not supporting Granholm door-to-door: In my estimation, she is not the kind of Democrat I would give up my time for. Maybe she is all you believe she's cut up to be, but from what I saw she's not.

I attended the "Environmental Debate" at Howell High. All the GOP and DEM gubernatorial candidates entered in the Michigan primary were there. The format was such that each got to answer each question posed.

When asked about alternative energy sources, one candidate, a businessman from Farmington, answered he believed the development of neighborhood nuclear reactors could represent a clean source of energy. Some people on the stage joined the audience in giggling.

All the candidates took their turn in answering. When it came to Granholm, she said she "agreed with all that's been said," and turned to the neighborhood-nuke guy, put her hand on his forearm and said, "except for you, (George or whatever his name was)."

Granholm was condescending toward the man. That's not how a Democrat acts towards another human being. There is no "One-Up, One-Down" that Alan Watts described so long ago. No, Democrats believe all people are created equal. Anyway, that's why I'm a Democrat.

the state has a ten million dollar surplus. That ain't peanuts.
Just because you don't think he's done anything doesn't me he hasn't.

OK here's a question to you. What has Kerry done all by his lonesome in congress that is better than the nothing you think Dean has done (all by his lonesome)? Does the United States have a budget surplus?

and Kennedy/Kerry's CHIPS plan that gave Vermont more federal money to expand their healthcare?

Balanced budgets? --Nope. The state legislature votes on those

Civil unions - No again. Dean had some help from the legislature which passed it, and the gay couple that brought the suit

Health care - Again, Dean had help. Dean was helped by the Clinton economy, and CHIPS (a Clinton program)

who has done anything on there lonesome...

Stalin maybe...Hitler...what exactly are you looking for here...

I posted the same thing you did (almost) except for the Stalin and Hitler bit (nice touch by the way),




Dave (AmyStrange.com)

all by their lonesome... but Vermont does have a 10 million dollar surplus. name all the other states that have that---including the United States,


Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

then maybe the money will come around. How I was hoping to see this post sink like a stone...

at the amount of time and effort individuals spend trying to beat down a candidate while not spending more time raising up their own candidate.

I have to pause here to give a special kudos to Kucinich supporters as adopting this road (for the most part)...

But it is interesting that many who choose to post anti-Dean threads know far more, and spend a considerable amount of time researching their subject...leaving aside that many posts from articles in some threads use selective editing to portray Dean in a negative light (not in this particular instance though)...these same people count on the fact that many people are too lasy to click on the threads provided and won't go to original source material...but rather accept the word of a fellow DUer...

Maybe we should add disclaimers to our posts so we know exactly where people are coming from...although anybody who's been here for any length of time can easily identify the anti-Dean and anti-Kerry posters...

I truely feel that all that is accomplished by these threads is to turn people off to the candidacies of both Dean and Kerry, and that is a shame....try building up your own candidate through reasoned arguments or accomplishments by posting positive messages about who you support...

Of course, people will still post these types of posts and perhaps we should all remember the old saying that "opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one!" You're not going to win anyone over by tearing down a candidate (at least not the active members we are going to need for this next election)....

Give me a message....show me something about your candidate that will inspire me to follow them to the moon and back....give me that Jack Kennedy (Bobby, MLK) moment...

otherwise go away boy...ya bother me....

My opinions and the facts I base them on are no insult to you. Yet, you act like they are. Why is that?

I've been here almost two years. How about you? I don't remember seeing too many posts where you support JFK, RFK, MLK or put down the BFEE, for that matter.

Too bad you haven't seen the dozens of pro-Kerry threads I've posted on DU. Time after time, he's been slammed and slandered by a small, but dedicated group of posters.

Recently I found they were organized and posted about that. From the tone of their replies, a whole bunch of them popped forehead veins at being outted. How about you? What's your problem?

BTW: If posting my thoughts on Dean bothers you, too damn bad. That's the idea. And you don't have to read them.

by how many posts we have.....many people visited this site for awhile before coming on to post....I have spent most of my time posting on another forum...but I'm not going to spend any more time justifying myself...its a stupid point

You may feel that you think i'm insulted but the truth is I really dont think much of the negative posts...and you should have noticed that I did not include this post as one of the nasty post threads....

As far as being nasty about a candidate...I defy, no challenge you to find a single post where i derided a single democratic candidate...I have instead called for people to be positive...

You're right, I dont have to read them...i'm more hopping that the people who post will simply ignore people who post the "this candidate sucks so support my guy" threads....

using tactics of posting threads ensured to garner many responses for the simple purpose of getting that little girl giggly thrill of seeing the thread subject line hover at the top for over a day...or better yet...getting the falme icon added as transparent...from anyone who does this...Dean, Kerry, Kucinich, etc. supporters...

Nowhere do I claim myself superior to any other person on DU. Neither do I post in order to get "that little girl giggly thrill of seeing the thread subject line hover at the top for over a day..."

Why do I bother to bring my perspective? Our nation can't afford four more years of the Bush Organized Crime Family. If you think Howard Dean can kick them out of power, tell me why. Otherwise, my opinion holds that Dean is not the guy for the job.

I've been trying to refrain from the candidate-bashing threads and when I do participate, I think I try to remain civil (I hope I do, anyway).

Most of them are just so damn counterproductive. I mean, sure, if you were certain that a candidate was a truly horrible, malevolent person, then by all means speak up and let us know.

Raising questions and engaging in debate are fine (which I think this post does), but, man, ease up on the attacks otherwise. I am for Dean. However, I will vote, with no problem at all, for Kerry, Clark, Kucinich and even Gephardt. Frankly, I don't know enough about Sharpton or Braun or Edwards or Graham at this time to say whether I'd have a problem, but I haven't seen anything to make me vow I'd never vote for them.

Lieberman is the only candidate I have some trouble with, but, although it would be difficult for me, I'd still vote for him if he gets the nomination. Although I don't like him as a candidate, I refuse to attack him; I prefer to put my time and effort into promoting Dean. The stakes are really too high here for us to be tarring and feathering our own ("our own" being a relative term, since I don't see myself as officially with the Democratic Party anymore).

Regarding a JFK/RFK/MLK moment: The Dean Meetup I went to in June (I'm currently organizing one for August in the town where I live), was unlike anything I've ever been to in politics. There was just such an energy there among the diverse group of people...I went in kind of skeptical and came out wanting to do what I could to help Dean win. I'm not comparing Dean to John, Bobby, or Martin (he ain't quite on that level), but he's really striking a chord in people I meet and that came through strongly at that Meetup.

Thank you for that post.

I am not convinced that Howard Dean is electable. More importantly, neither is the so-called Democratic "establishment." So, why should we even be thinking about this guy?? :o

Let's just let the "Democratic establishment" pick the candidate in the first place?

Welcome to DU, Cookie. :hi:

I'm part of the "Democratic establishment" (albeit at a very low level), and I know plenty of others who agree that Dean is electable.

He is electable because he comes across as strong and exciting. Maybe he doesn't seem that way to you, but there is evidence that he does to many (witness the meetup groups, the size of his crowds, and the large number of small donors to his campaign). He will also be uniquely able to compete against the large amount of money that bush will raise. Not only has he shown the ability to raise money himself at a rate that has become comparable to other Democratic candidates, but he (and he alone) can wage a national grassroots campaign.

There are already over 60,000 meetup volunteers. There will be hundreds of thousands by the general election. That's one hell of a canvassing/phone banking team made up of people who will print their own flyers off the Dean website and walk door to door (off a list provided to the meetup coordinator via the campaign).

Very cheap and very effective.

belongs. When I saw it last night, it smacked of flamebaiting and voila, here it is burning hot. I'm not buying into this.

Go Dean 2004

I have seen lots of candidates come and go, nationally and locally, and I've even become involved in several campaigns. (My first political experience was attending rallies for JFK so I go back a few years.) Mostly I have backed losers so I am used to being disappointed but this time there is too much on the line - we simply have to win and be rid of these fiends.
IMO, Dean is the only one who has the attractiveness (yes, it counts) the fire in the belly, the intelligence and the Truman-like ability to speak to ordinary people to beat Bush.
I am going to work for Dean, go to his meetings, write letters, have a house party, donate money, attend rallies, leaflet, respond to negative comments wherever I see them, in other words, do everything I can think of to help him elected.

... and appreciate your input, Doctor. Replies like yours will do more for convincing people to support Dean. Your reply also makes me feel better about the prospects of a Dean candidacy.

My concern centers around his experience. The nation has been on the wrong track since Ronald Reagan and we need someone who knows what needs to be done to fix things. The fact he doesn't want the public to examine how he came to his decisions also gives me pause.

Thanks again for the kind reply. Also it's important to say: A hearty welcome to DU, Dr. Mullion Blasto!

It seems to be so rare in the world these days...
Your statement:

When has Dean actually DONE anything to make life better for the little guy? Wasn't a near-universal medical insurance program for the residents of Vermont already there when he took over as governor?

I believe you are denying the facts. Why?

My main concerns regarding Dean are his qualifications for holding the highest elected office in the land. The times call for more than a "Give 'em Hell" type orator.

To answer your accusation: Well, you’re definitely right. Three percent improvement IS three percent improvement, especially if you consider he only had 11 years to improve things. How will he see the entire USA gets medical coverage? From The Center for Public Integrity's "Buying Of The President 2004:

When Dean became governor in 1991, 12.7 percent of persons living in Vermont were uninsured. As of 2001 the uninsured rate dropped to 9.6 percent.

http://www.bop2004.org/dtaweb/bop2004/default.aspx?SECTION=CANDIDATE&CID=8

And no, I don't want to win one for the Gippet. Dean is a smart guy and if he's the Democratic nominee. Great! He's got my vote.

Here is a point by point response to your hatchet job.


Howard Dean is a good guy who speaks what's on his mind. He doesn't hold back for the Repukes and he doesn't hold back from the DEMs. And I respect him for that.

Resonse

No arguement here.

Unfortunately, that's also what I don't like. Talk is all there is. And, in the real world, people who talk real good all-too-often aren't all that good at DOING. That's not a compromise, that's reality.


Response

Lets see some pretty good talkers/doers FDR, JFK, Clinton to name three. Should we be electing someone who can't talk? We already have a President who fits that bill.


When has Dean actually DONE anything to make life better for the little guy? Wasn't a near-universal medical insurance program for the residents of Vermont already there when he took over as governor?

Response

In the case of children he went from 91% to 96% covered WITH EVERYONE ELIGABLE. In other words the 4% left uncovered are left that way due to their parent's choice. As it is he cut the percent of uninsured by 55% in 11 years.

In the case of the population as a whole he went from 88% to 91%. That is a 25% reduction in 11 years. Those are both far and away better than the nation as a whole and any other state. Plus he did so from a stronger base and thus in some senses had a tougher job. It is always more difficult to insure the last few people than the first few people.


From what he's said: He sees it as a best-of compromise of Medicaid and Medicare, with the state allowed to use the money from Washington anyway that seens fit. Great. Try doing that in a city with a population larger than the state of Vermont — Detroit, say.

What worked in Vermont wouldn't work in Detroit because Washington doesn't send Detroit enough money to cover everybody who needs it. What happens then? Sorry, no money? We've got to be fiscally conservative, after all.

Response

You are wrong here on both counts. First, Dean had to match federal funds to get them for Medicaid. That means he chose to spend state money to insure children and their parents.

You are also wrong on Medicare reimburments. Cities have always gotten more than rural areas in that regard. That is a constant complaint of states like Iowa which have a lot of old people. Thus Detroit gets more money than Vermont does. As to Medicaid, if Engler had decided to match the funds up to 250% of the poverty level like Dean did, then Detroit would have gotten that money just like Vermont did.

OK. How about education for the poor and welfare reform success? There's not much of either in Vermont, but what there is can be solved if we compromise on the backs of those who most need the help — the children of "Liberals like Marian Wright Edelman." Again, humanitarian concerns demand some compromise, but not when it comes to fiscal responsibility.

Response

Dean equalized education funding in Vermont with ACT 160. Under that act the state, with a statewide property tax, funds the overwhelming majority of school expenses. I will grant this was done due to a court case but it was done. And now poor schools and rich schools have nearly equal funding. Rich districts may levy additional taxes but must share them with everyone else too.

As to welfare reform he did a better job than most with child care and job training. Like it or not that system needed reformed. It was the working poor and lower middle classes which had the biggest beef with it.


No explanation or heart needed there, evidently. Did I mention before he was a doctor, Dean was a stockbroker like his dad and grandfather before him? So he has DONE a LOT with his life to help others — sorry to carry over his political works onto his truly remarkable career. But this is about politics and America needs the best politician it can muster ASAFP.

Response

He was a stock broker for a very short time (3 years I think). He was a Doctor for 13 and a Governor for 11. He felt, like you do, that he could do more with his life and so he did. He didn't take the softer easier road. I think that is meritorious.


When Turd Russert interviewed him live a month ago, Dean answered "I don't know the answer to that," and explained why he didn't know and who will know. Sure, he talked about the material he knew, but the stuff dealing with national defense and international affairs, he could only guess close.

Response

He was asked three particular troop numbers. Total military he said 1 to 2 million depending on what counts and the answer is 1.6 million. The number in Iraq he said appx 135k the answer was 146k (BTW he was closer than one of Rumsfeld's aids on that one). The number in Afghanistan I don't remember those details but he was off by less than 10%. And he also pointed out, that he would listen to his advisers on this. Which is sensible. Newsflash. No one knows everything. I would vastly prefer a person who listen to people who did know than just bluffed.



Close doesn't cut it in 2004 America. There's no way Americans will compromise their safety in an ever-more dangerous world. And in domestic affairs, they want a candidate who knows more than just what worked in a state smaller than Detroit. The president has to know what is going on from Day One — look what's happened to America with the idiot-in-charge we've got now. We can't afford more on-the-job training.


Response

He was governor for 11 years. Balanced 11 budgets. Appointed hundreds of judges. Made thousands of decisions. Domesticly he is the best qualified. No matter how small a state is it still have to be governed and Dean was a strong governor.


So that leads me back to the original concern: What has Dean done? The answers to many questions may be found by historians in 2013. You see, the good doctor ordered his gubernatorial papers sealed for 10 years.


Originally, Dean tried to get the papers he accumulated in his 11 years as Vermont governor sealed for 20 years, but had to compromise. There's that word, again

Response


I do agree that 20 years was out of line. But under executive priviledge that both of his predecessors exercised he would have had 6 years right of the bat. He settled for 10 years. Given that he was governor for 11 years I don't think that is out of line. Every state seals this stuff for a while.

Sorry evidently my cut and paste has a limit that your post surpassed. I will respond to the rest of your post in another post (response part 2)

Sorry my bad. I can't see posts I am replying to due to system problems so when I didn't see a period I thought it had cut your post. I did have it all. That is my entire response.

Fair's fair. How subjective are spin, interpretation, perspective, take, feel, impression and belief. The one constant is hope. Thanks for keeping yours and encouraging it in others, including me!

and thanks for the compliment. I don't always succeed but I try to remain even tempered and fair both to posters and to candidates.

And stop spamming this board with your tired, overused rants about one of the 9 choices you have to vote in the primaries -- IF you are a registered dem, that is.