Honest question about the south- NOT flame bait

Why, exactly are the repugs so strong in the south? Why is the south so politically conservative. Is it just the bible belt thing, or is there more to it?

Thanks.

I can guarantee you the "bible belt thing" is a big factor. When legions of Baptists converted to Republicanism, the Dem's lost a lot of voters. Unfortunately there is also the "race" thing. Lotsa rascism down here, and not as covert as you'd imagine. Just pick any city in the south and examine the local politics.

??

But where I live, yep. There are also a large contingent of nuvo riche, out to secure their newly minted fortunes from taxation.

In large cities and small.

There definitely are racists in some places in the south. But in most places I've found no significant differences overall in racial attitudes between the south and my hometowm of Denver. Neither place is ideal BTW. I definitely do not believe that racism plays a major role in voting patterns any more.

Bible belt? Yes. Lots of "God Bless Bush" bullshit.

Personally, I believe (contrary to the flap over the Confederate flag), we have lost the rank and file working class and middle class southerners because we have allowed the neocons to usurp the AMERICAN flag and replace true patriotism with their shallow jingoistic version. Southern conservatives truly believe it is unpatriotic to vote liberal.

recently moved to Dallas from Denver and was appalled at the difference in racial relations. His take was that the south is waaayyy more racist. The only "minority" I belong to is female, so I can't really judge.

They will never get over it. They actually hate the US government as much as Osama. Listen to the Republicans...they know how to appeal to these racists. If Arabs would repeat half of what some notable Republicans and conservatives have said about the US and the government they would off to GITMO in a straigt jacket.

Notice how the treasonous act of outing Wilson's wife has slipped of the media radar...if Dems had done the same thing we would be watching impeachment hearings right now.

No one I know is. But judging from the number of hate posts we get every time anything happens in the South (such as the election yesterday), it certainly seems that DUers 'up North' just can't get enough of the fighting.

Yes, two repukes won state houses yesterday, on in MS, the other in KY, which isn't even in the South. But look what happened last month in CA!!!

Just WHO is it, that will 'never get over it'????

(That's Sons of Confederate Veterans, for you Yankees, and it is NOT a group with huge membership rolls by any means, especially considering how many Southerners are eligible for it or the UDC -- United Daughters of the Confederacy.)

I often hear that Southerners are obsessed with the War because there are lots of statues, markers, battleground monuments. Hello -- most of the battles were fought in the South! I'm in Georgia, in a city Sherman burned to the ground, and can only think of one Civil War monument in the town. It's an area where many people's families have lived here for generations, too, but Confederate flags aren't very common. American flags are the most popular decals on cars.

The most fully--and comfortably--integrated place I have ever lived is the small town in rural Mississippi where I am now. Racists do feel comfortable being outspoken in places like this, but every neighborhood in this town is racially mixed and day-to-day relations between blacks and whites are more cordial than in any other place I have lived.

Does that mean that the power structure here is integrated? No. But neither is the power structure of Central Park West integrated.

and I'd add that Confederate flags are now displayed WITH American flags. That's a new political statement, post 9-11. I think it says "I support what the South did in seceding but I support the United States now" as well as "Shut up, Yankees, it's our heritage!"

But a majority of VOTING Southerners are.

People outside of the South don't realize how low our voting turnout actually is- usually well under 40% in off year elections, on average 40-45% in presidential years. So 21% or so can win an election for the bible thumping racists. Add to this, the fact that those people are usually extremely motivated to get out and vote, and voila- a recipe for electoral disaster.

Our party does a huuuuge disservice to all of us by ignoring the non-voters. If we could register and get those people to the polls, we could stop pandering to the so-called center (which is actually moderately right today).

What makes someone "bible thumping"? The fact they're Christian and attend church every sunday? I know of very few "bible thumpers" here in NC, and the % is nowhere near 21% I can say that much.

What makes someone a racist? Being anti-affirmative action? I'm sorry, just because they don't support giving extra help to minorities in getting jobs and getting into schools doesn't mean they're racist. Conservatives see affirmative action as a type of socialism, where the gov't is basically telling corporations what criteria to use in the hiring process. I don't support their thought, but at least I'm not reactionary enough to claim that being anti-affirmative action is racist, as it seems some of us here do...

Where did I mention being anti-affirmative action equals being a racist? You came up with that, not me. And if you live in the South, you certainly know that there ARE still racists here. I don't classify someone as a racist for simply being against AA. I am talking about people who still use racial epithets as part of their every day speech, who still think that Blacks should not have as many rights as whites, or who think that Blacks are inferior just b/c they are Black. These people thankfully do not comprise a majority of Southerners, but they ARE still here.

And I usually refer to the Christian Coalition types as pseudo Christians, since they seem to completely ignore the teachings of Christ. I am a Christian myself, and it angers me to no end that my religion has been hijacked by Dobson, Falwell, Robertson and even the elder Graham. The ones to whom I am referring are the people who support Gingrinch (despite his affairs and leaving his wife while she was in the hospital) et al, but despise Dems b/c we are primarily pro-choice.


I did not say that 21% of the South are bible thumpers. I said 21% can win an election down here. And that includes the people who vote for repubs b/c of their supposed moral superiority on Christian issues, the people who vote for repubs b/c of the code word racism of their campaigns, the people who vote for the repubs based solely on guns, AND the people who are really repubs, ie, the wealthy.

Do a little bit of research into your state's turnout in the last several elections- you just may be surprised. In Texas, where we've have turnout as low as 36%, only 18.5% of VOTERS can win the elction for the repubs. In fact, Perry was elected with only about 19.5% of registered voters support! Texas ranks 48th in number of registered voters and 49th in turnout- not exactly a stellar record. But it is something the repubs can use to their advantage, since their people tend to be far more motivated to actually vote.

just because they don't support giving extra help to minorities in getting jobs and getting into schools doesn't mean they're racist.

... does affirmative action give "extra help" to minorities?

One of the best definitions I've heard--

If it would bother you if your child dated or married a black person, you're a racist.

Now, let me tell you my story. I was stationed for a year in Pascagoula, MS on what we in the Navy call Pre-commissioning duty. Basically, assigned to a ship being built. Part of our mandatory indoctrination into the local area was a discussion about how people of color should be careful and that there were several clubs, bars, areas to avoid at all costs.

This was in 1992!

I don't care what you say, or how you spin it (and I got locked earlier for being inflamatory), but you can not deny that racism still exists there. I'll admit that it exists in the north too, but you know what? "Yeah, it exists in the North, but Democrats still win in the North". Someone please explain that to me, if race is not an issue and the south is really enlightened as some say it is.

What do the racists in the south want? A return to segregation? Or do they just resent programs like affirmative action? I think Democrats have got to figure out what is going on in the south and how to combat it. If the majority of southerners want a return to segragation (and I don't think they do), they screw 'um. But if it's resentment of perceived special treatment for minorities, or if it's just a strong residual resentment towards liberals and Democrats for forcing federal civil right laws on them, then we've got to find a way to bring the more thoughtful of them back into the Democratic Party.

It seems like there is a lot of turf wars on the city and county level for grants, contracts, etc. that promote a lot of fighting between groups. Money will do that. Also there is a lot of resentment of minority workers by less educated whites who feel they lose employment opportunities - not that this is true. And in the end it seems alittle bit xenophobic, as well.

They have a strong tolerance for intolerance. We won't win the South by harping on racism of the Republicannibals. Many of them just flat don't care! I think we should hammer the Repubs on education.

I lived in the South, I still love the South, and I was born and raised a Democrat. What a shock it was to discover Repubs swarming everywhere. I'm waiting for the pendulum to swing.

and yeah, the bible belt. That pretty much sums it up. These days, there's just a sheer hatred of the left. We used to be commies, and now we're fags.

A bumper sticker "race" where the drivers had to plaster the bumper sticker with something like I'm gay and I'm here to take your guns away. The "contestant" had to drive through East Texas and the joke was that the first person to actually make it out alive won? Sorry I can't remember the exact wording.

It's really a region unto itself.

I've lived here for 15 years. (Grew up in Michigan.)

My husband and I have a weekend home on the Chesapeake Bay. For 10 years different developers have tried to come into the community and build strip malls, shopping centers, etc. Because of the fragile wetlands and water, the community has come together to fight the developers. On four different attempts, we have stopped huge projects. We have a town that has no stop lights and no franchize type place except for a single Hardees. We have, of necessity become very knowledgeable about environmental science and laws. The people here are very passionate on this subject. But...guess what...THEY STILL VOTE REPUBLICAN!!! I don't get it! Somehow they don't see the connection or maybe they don't want to see it. My husband and I are very vocal liberal democrats. Often someone will admit to us how much they hate Bush...in a "hush hush" way...as if they are embarassed and don't want anyone else to know! Weird!

Our one big success in this state is that we now have a wonderful democratic governor! He was elected right after 9/11 even though we were bombarded with ads of Giuliani endorsing his rival.

BS!!! I have heard great things about you Governor, much better than my Rethug (wife beating) Gov!!! Maybe there will be a senate seat in Mr. Warner's future???


:dem:

...I think Gov. Warner is presdential material. He's got the intelligence, experience, capability and charisma of Clinton...without the baggage. He's squeaky clean.

because poor southern whites blame minorities for their plight, rather than the 1% who pay a lower percentage of taxes. The Republicans have got poor and working class southern whites exactly where they want them, blaming somebody else.

The Republicans are the party of blame someone else. They do it all the time. It appeals to the poor schmucks that don't know any better. If you are poor and living in a trailer, it is much easier to say that it is (you fill in the blank)'s fault.

good point - the Reps. do use the divide and conquer strategy a lot

"The Republicans have got poor and working class southern whites exactly where they want them, blaming somebody else."

Truer words...

I won't say ALL poor or middle class whites in the South feel this way, since I certainly don't, and neither does anyone in my family.

But I know a number of otherwise rational, intelligent individuals who turn into Trent Lott when race is discussed. Some people have been conditioned by their own families or friends or even churches to fear the Evil Black Man and hate all Welfare Queens (who are, of course, all Black).

The repub party has been absolutely masterful at dividing the South along racial lines. They have the white "Bubbas" voting repub because they are upset about their hard earned tax dollars going to those lazy good fer nothin minorities (who again, are the *only* ones on gov't assistance :eyes: ). Never mind the billions of tax dollars the repubs give to their corporate friends in the form of tax shelters, write-offs, etc.

component of the South. The South has a large rural population, much like the Mountain West. Notice the similarities in voting patterns.

Rural communities tend to be more conservative on all fronts. They are strongly religious. They are fearful of big government. Change is not readily accepted. THese are generalizations, but they tend to apply to rural communities regardless of locale.

If you look at the Southern cities, you see much stronger populations of Democrats. Since the South is the fastest growing region of the country, you will begin to see the influence of the voting poulations in the growing cities offset the rural communities.

The South may be Republican now, but there are several areas of the South that are trending Democratic. If we write the South off now, we may lose those states in the future.

Most - if not all - rural farmers voted democratic. They were lifelong members of the Dem.Party. The switch in Texas only started to happen in the late 60's and early '70's. But even then small farmers and rural workers voted Dem. But also, good to remember that back then women republicans often backed socially constructive legislation such as ERA.

They like to live an easy and simple lifestyle. They like their entertainment to be simple (they prefer Nascar Racing where cars only turn left to other forms of racing where cars turn both right and left). They like their music to be simple (listen to any country song and try to find a covert or hidden message). They like their religon to be simple and they like their politics to be simple. They like republican because they offer them simple answers to complex problems.

It's not that most southerners (in reality about 30%) are stupid, they just don't like to have to spend a lot of time thinking about things that dont have an immediate impact on their lives.

A good example of how southerners work:

Tell them if you lower their taxes they will have more money to spend themselves. Southerners like this logic.

Now tell them that if you increase thier taxes by a small amount, the additional revenue raised by the government will be put into government subsidized health care. This in turn will lead to greatly reduced premiums that they pay for health care which will in the end lead to a lot more money in their pocket. Southerners will not like this, because it is too complicated. This sort of logic does not work well in the South.

This is a really broad generalization of southerners, but I have lived in the south for most of my 40 years and this has been my observation of how things work here.

Hope this helps some.

This is completely patronizing nonsense. Yes all Southerners like things simple. Our feeble minds can't handle big difficult concepts like our more enlightened neighbors to the North.

Let's look at one of your assertions. Southerners like their music simple. This really gets my goat. I'm from the South and I'm a giant music fan. I'll put my knowledge of all genres of music against any Northerner's any day of the week. Have you ever heard of jazz, America's music? It was conceived and developed in the South. How about the Blues? It evolved in the South. As for country, try listening to Townes Van Zandt, Willie Nelson, Emmy Lou Harris, Steve Earle, and countless others and then tell me it is contentless.

Some of the greatest writers in America came from the South. Do you really think Faulkner was simple?

It is this condescending attitude that turns off many Southerners to liberals.

We all know how mind-numbingly simple Absalom, Absalom! and The Sound and the Fury are. :eyes:

May Pancho and Lefty ride forever!!!

But the Snopeses were pretty simple, doncha think?

Seriously. Be honest, now: The picture Faulkner drew of the South is not all that far removed from the one uberotto drew.

It just happens to relate to the dissertation I am writing now. Wow--a chance to talk about it!

Not to go into a lot of detail, but Faulkner identified strongly with both the plantation aristocracy and the oppressed blacks of the South. Big contradiction there, right? Faulkner resolved it, as other Southern conservatives have done, by mythologizing a South in which racism was the exclusive monopoly of the poorer whites, like the Snopeses, and the people who owned the plantations, controlled the Jim Crow legislatures, etc. were actually the great friends of the black man.

Historian Joel Williamson calls this theory of Southern race relations "the grits thesis," and it explains why Faulkner, although a brilliant novelist, should not be treated as a sociologist or historian.

It's also worth pointing out that the last novel in which a Snopes appeared was written a half-century ago. A lot can happen in that time.

I have a Ph. D. in English, too, and from a Southern school. You make a good point.

Nevertheless, I think it's wrong to discount the notion that proletarian Southern whites as a class don't share some of the qualities uberetto delineated.

Not only are they "simple" folk, as he claimed, they're PRIDEFULLY "simple" folk.

Moreover, it was the Democratic Party that exploited that simplicity for 85 years or so, and it's the Republicans exploiting it now.

As for the last Snopes story being fifty years ago, so what? Who was it who said "The past isn't dead, it isn't even past"?

A small one. Unfortunately, getting to it reminds me of Jesse Jackson's description of trickle-down economics: standing behind the horse and waiting for one or two undigested oats to trickle down.

Hardly worth the trouble, and gets your hands awfully dirty besides.

Many of the people we are discussing do take a perverse pride in their alleged lack of pride, and their simplicity is itself a fairly complex thing, product as it is of a long and complex history. True enough.

I am of the opinion that we need to find ways to tailor our message to those people. (Specifically, I think we need to return to the class politics that made us the majority party for so many years.) Many here are of the opinion that proles, particularly Southern ones, are unworthy of our attention and best ignored. That's where I part ways with uberetto.

on conotation, certainly, but I don't see that much substantively different in the ultimate conclusions you each draw:

We have to couch our proposals in the vernacular of Southern proletarian whites.

Personally, I'm probably less interested in Democratic Party improvment in the South than either of you. The Dems are now the cosmpolitan party on cultural issues and we would certainly have to adopt a provincialist view on culture to have a hope of winning two states or more in the South, and I think it's bad for both the party and nation for the Dems to do that.

We DON'T need the South, except for one state, any state, but that doesn't mean the Dems are at death's door because the Republicans don't need the Northeast, either, except for one state, any state.

So fuck it. We can steal a Southern state with intense targeting or some electoral tactic of ticket-balancing or something and we won't have to surrender out core values to the Confederates after we already whipped their scrawny Rebel asses BUT GOOD 130 years ago.

to refight the war is at DU. Maybe that's just because I don't read the Southern Partisan or hang out at SCV meetings, but the war thing seems to be more an issue here than anywhere in real life. As another thread points out, most trucks in the South have the stars and stripes plastered on them, and people love to talk about how proud they are of being Americans. The uberpatriotism is so thick it can be stifling at times.

I'm certainly not interested in retreating on cultural issues. I'm gay, so that would definitely not be in my interests.

But neither do I really think it is necessary. The reason that cultural issues have assumed such supreme importance in American politics is that Democrats have surrendered on class issues, so nothing else is in play. If both parties want to ship your job to Juarez or Bangalore, and one of those parties at least pretends to respect your values, well, where do you think people will go?

Obviously some people are immune to reason, but I suspect that most, if given a choice between having a decent job or keeping lesbians from getting married in Vermont will choose the decent job.

In other words, I think that by playing the kulturkampf game, Democrats are playing on Republican turf. That's a losing game. It's time for unapologetic, balls to the wall class warfare.

We have had different experiences, then.

I saw puh-lenty of Southern Chauvinism in my 10 years in Louisiana, and lots of ordinary folk who wanted to keep "fighting the war." Not that Southern Chauvanism is morally inferior to Yankee Arrogance, but there is in fact a cultural chasm and it can resonate.

The development of an intense and NATIONAL popular culture by way of the electronic media has to some degree bridged the chasm, but not uniformly.

The only event that would bring proletarian Southern whites thumping back to the Democrats is an economic depression, which would bring the class issues back into sharp relief.

Since, in my view, the two options for a serious Southern strategy for the Dems for the time being require either:

a. A Great Depression, or

b. A surrender of cosmopolitanism, I choose

c. To hell with it. We don't NEED the South and we'd have to give up too much to become competitive in the South, so why bother?

I'm sick to fucking death of Southern Provinicals of both parties dominating national politics. SICK OF IT. And then to hear whiners like Zell Miller complain about the South being ignored. The three Dem Presidents in the last 40 years hailed from Texas, Georgia and Arkansas. The current Republican and his father were both Texans (although Poppy was raised Preppy). Nixon and Reagan are the only non-Southerners.

If the South wants to join the Democratic Agenda then it needs to get with our program. If they don't want to, fine.

Aside from that, though, I think you may be onto something about how class issues must be brought into sharper focus. I don't know that it would require something as drastic as Great Depression II, though. Perhaps having at least one national party willing to talk about class issues would do it. I can understand why Republicans don't want to do that, but I cannot for the life of me understand why Democrats do not.

If you think about it, America has the only "Left" in the world that could not care less about class. It's the ugly legacy of the so-called "New Left," and it's what gave America Nixon, Reagan, and two Bushes.

Prime example. If you ever want to know why Republicans are able to get so damn much mileage out of the stereotype of the snotty, condescending liberal, just refer to this post or any of the many others like it that are posted here every day.

Not all of us are simpletons. I've lived in Texas all my life, though I have gotten to travel to exotic liberal lands: San Fran, Oregon, NYNY.... But a lot of people down here do tend to respond "knee-jerk". We liberals think it's the heat.

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More elitist garbage. Sometimes I wonder why I even hang around this website anymore.

I hate NASCAR and my favorite contemporary artists are Eminem, Dr Dre, Missy Elliot, and Public Enemy....


And I think I understand the economics of health care.....


You must be talking to the wrong southerners....

And that comes pretty darn close.

On the other hand, I can construct a reasonable argument in support of your point that does not require "stupid" as a criteria. I cannot, however, avoid "unsophisticated," and if that's flame bait, so be it.

BTW, I have ten years living in Dixie.

People in the South have inherited both a tradition and the consequent institutions of a LOW TAX/LOW SERVICE government. It's not "small" government neccessarily (how many of the dry counties in the USA are in the South?), it's low-tax/low-service.

The low service government results in below par--way below par--public education. And that, in turn, results in a population that is neccessarily less sophisticated in its decision-making about the costs and benefits of government services. Likewise, it makes the South the center of classic American Populist anti-intellectualism.

If they reject the potential benefits of the public sector, they can hardly be blamed for accepting the GOP ideological position that the public sector is merely dead weight on an otherwise vibrant private sector.

The classic example, cited by Molly Ivins a half-year or so ago when the Texas budget was being written, was the conservative Republican state legislator who supported medicaid cuts because "my constituents don't use it." Of course it turned out, rural health crisis and all, that the guy's district of mostly rural whites used medicaid at a rate far above the state average.

Racial polarization, as others have pointed out.

The general social conservatism of rural and working-class voters, a phenomenon not limited just to the South or even to the United States.

Religion, particularly the fundamentalist sort that distrusts human institutions like government and views human nature as inherently corrupt and thus resistant to do-gooding.

And last, but certainly not least, the widespread perception that liberals hold the Great Unwashed Masses in contempt. There is something to that perception--it is on daily display right here at DU. In my opinion, this reason for the GOP's popularity is the easiest one to do something about, though the others are not hopeless causes.

It could be because of the bible belt. Those Southern baptists folks set the tone.

...it must be the religion thing. The South was mostly democratic back in the days before the so-called "moral decay" of our culture. You know...gays, sex without marriage...and...God forbide...bearing children without the benefit of Holy Matrimony...eeeeekkkkkkk!!!!!! Now we want to be smokin' joints like they was cigarettes! Yep...it's God's fault...and Clinton's penis put the last nail in the coffin.

Get this...in the Chesapeake Bay there's an island called Tangier Island. Paul Newman wanted to film the movie "Message in a Bottle" there, but the town voted against it because there was too much swearin' and sex in the movie! If you saw the movie you may remember Paul Newman, Kevin Costner and Robin Wright prancing around naked on the beach having gay sex and threesomes, cussing and taking the Lord's name in vain!!! Not!

fun of their values is a sure way to swing 'em your way.

Self-righteous, judgemental and intolerate attitudes are not values!

And sweepingly dismissing an entire region's beliefs as self-righteousness, judgmental, and intolerant is probably not a good way to understand the issue or to resolve it.

Your own post shows your prejudices against another groups beliefs.
You yourself have been self-righteous, judgemental and intolerant.

not the rural areas. Here, more just believe the propaganda like that espoused on Rush Limbaugh and such. Democrats aren't countering the crap very well. Too many weathervanes (in the Democratic party here). Also, we're loaded with military bases here and many are buying into the patriotism and military spending arguments.

The ten commandments traveling monument came to raleigh.

they buy into the argument that liberals are out to assault their religion.

make every american dependent on Big Government.

know!

know!

on WPTF, 680, your source for Rush, Sean, Boortz, and our very own Jerry Agar.

getting in on the military spending gravy train is another big reason.

I'm a 41 year old native southerner. I've spent all except for 1 year of my life living in the South and am married to a Southern girl.

My opinion of why the South is conservative is:

Fundamentalist Christian denominations are common. I'm a Southern Baptist but have a liberal viewpoint on most issues. I live in a rather large city and I had to visit several churches before I found one that did not preach politics from the pulpit. I actually went into one church where the pastor said that if you are a Christian, you will vote for GWBush during the 2000 election. The whole issue seems to revolve around support for gay rights and abortion rights by the Democrats. It always suprised me because they view the whole issue as morality of the Republican party. The Democrats, in my view, have been more in line with conservative Christians on issues of violence and sex in the media, preserving families, protecting children, and gambling. The Republicans have won the spin on conservative Christian "moral" issues.

Another is racism. The whole Nixon Southern strategy and the Dixicrats. The Dixicrats have disappeared only to be replaced by Republicans. Their racism is shown by complaining that the reason the Southerner doesn't have a job or decent wage is because of the entitlements recieved by certain groups (read African Americans). Racism is still very much alive in the rural South. It'll take a couple more generations before it dies out.

Another is blind patriotism. Southerners are more prone to the "mess with us and we'll kick your butt" attitude. If there is a war going on, they'll support it whole heartedly and believe any of the nationalistic rhetoric. It comes from the nostaligia about the civil war (referred to as the "War of Northern Agression" by many Southerners). Southerners are fiercly independent and distrustful of government because of this culture romanticizing the civil war.

The main reason for these three attitudes is the dismal education systems here in the South. Some areas like North Carolina are making excellent progress but the challenge is overcoming the poverty more prevalent among Southerners. Poverty breeds ignorance and ignorance breeds more poverty. It forms a continual circle and the only way to break it is with inovative educational programs starting at an early age. That is probably one of the reasons that the Shrub administration is now trying to weaken such great programs as Head Start.

The challenge for the Democrats is educate the Southerners that we have the best interests of the poor at heart. We need to reach out to those folks and let them know that we support giving them a leg up and hold some of the same moral values as they do. We also need to educate them on the hypocrisy of the Republicans on some of those moral values. The only way to do that with the limited resources of the Democratic party is through local groups. We don't have the strong network of unions like we do in other states since most Southern States are "right to work". How to form local groups and how to get your message out is a tough question down here.

You said it much better than I did - exactly on point.

the south to secure democratic votes. The above post is very factual.

Dean '04...

Wouldn't gas chambers be easier?

I guess the moral highground you took when I had the audacity to prove a homosexual's post was ignorant, has since eroded. Good job, you're as ignorant as the people you're criticizing.

The post I was replying to struck me as exactly the kind of hateful dismissive crap we have both been criticizing.

... reaching out to working white voters in the South. They do, as he said , "vote against their own economic interests", and that has to be remedied.

On the other hand, he did use the wrong choice of words, and stepped into a briar patch. You have to figure out how to express such things without saying them explicitly - I think the good doctor had the right diagnosis, but I'm not so sure about the prescription.

I'm going to try and get registered in the Democratic party primary in South Carolina (congressional district 2), and I'm going to work on getting the message out - the GOP's into symbols, not substance, and their real concerns and those of working Southerners are very different.

I wish you success.
Dean's approach would be better if he went to closed manufacturing plants and textile mills where they are being shutdown or are laying people off and ask them why they voted for policies that lead to job flight out of their state.

He just needs to change his approach and not appear condescending. He could say, "this is what I meant to say".

pointing out (gently) that ones politics influences ones immediate survival does get attention if presented in an easily understandable (non-economic professor) way.

... and you have to go where working people are. Down here we have a couple of flea markets, and thousands of people go there every weekend. I'm going to be renting a table and talking to anyone who will listen, and am currently working on the website, so that I can get this thing going. A lot has been written and discussed about this problem - now it's time to take the political initiative.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

"If you see a newbie today, please give him/her a big DU welcome. It really does mean a lot."

I can attest to that. And, even a not-so-newbie.... some didn't get it the first time around.... ~~friendly grin~~

Kanary

I don't know.

When I go home I look around me and ask myself all the time "why?"

About the only thing I can come up with is the appeal to prejudice and fear. Politicians play on the fear, prejudice and ignorance of (some)white people....their fear of being a "minority", their prejudice against anything not white, and their ignorance of just how they are being played.

Mind you, this doesn't apply to ALL white people in the south.

I think the religion is tied up with the other things...one feeds the other.

I know a lot of whites in the south feel "disenfranchised" by the Democratic Party...however, they have some truly dumb reasons for feeling that way...mostly based in well...fear, prejudice and ignorance of the facts.

If your reason for not voting Democratic is because "some Mexican or black will take my job"..then well, I've got no patience for that brand of ignorance.

Not saying their concern isn't valid-in the sense that feelings are valid-whether based in fact or not(it is how they "feel")....but they aren't sound reasons for voting for Republicans, who screw them at every turn.

A whole lot of it is just plain ignorance...actually believing Democrats are "sinners", Democrats hate America, Democrats hate God, Democrats are commies...blah blah blah...and I have no use for my fellow southerners that spout that crap...lack of education plays a role..but even those with advanced degrees will spew this same junk.

A good many are indoctrinated beyond help...a cycle of ignorance that nothing seems to penetrate. Passed from generation to generation...

My sister and I talk about this all the time....it blows us away.

We grew up in the south and didn't get infected with this....why did others?

Born, raised and still live in the south. This place is crawling with “Bubbas” who just like to see someone get their butt kicked. I’ll never forget the charming gentleman who screamed at those of us who were protesting the war, “nuke Iraq” over and over. It’s a macho thing and * appeals to their cretin sensibilities. I really believe they could not care less about the environment, the economy or any other major issue. Imperialism appeals to them because they are bullies in their personal lives. I can only hope that these fools are too stupid to vote.

What happened to all that "thinning of the Herd" we were taught?? I too have seen these cretinous characters protesting protesters, and it never fails to amaze me how confrontational and violent and crude and expletive prone they are.

university, and grad school education. And so is Dean, who's never lived in the South. Neither Bush* nor Dean can admit that they're wrong about anything or offer a real apology. Both always have to be tought guys who don't back down. Picture both of them in tee shirts with the message "Does Not Play Well with Others."

Leaders have to strike a balance between strength and bullheadedness.

ok - a texas answer
in texas... we started losing to pubs back when John Hill was upset by Clements in 78... and a whole lot of pubs suddenly made their way into the statehouse. A lot of that was in suburban cities - the north dallas and north houston crowd... lots of those were displaced from other places. The average residency length in places like north dallas was 3 years... there wasnt a lot of sense of place - so people tended to look for other grouping activities. Church was a good one - it was inherently a social move. Most of the native texans were nice friendly folks but they had so little in common with all these yuppies they really didnt cross. These sleepy little towns had become giant bedroom communities. So you got these islands of church goers... and all these new people really displaced the 'way its always been' people. People like Phil Gramm read the writing and switched parties... Suburbia grew like a cancer on all the big Texas cities - and it was filled with imports and converted locals who voted to change the system to support themselves.

The conservative sentiment was always there in the south... it was just voting democrat for a hundred years. It was changing before Reagan, in fact it had pretty much changed - and Reagan was more a result than a cause. It's more about greed and outgrouping than anything else.

There are still a surprising number of yellowdog democrats out in the vast open spaces in Texas... but they're getting rarer as they age, and the sons and daughters of suburbia continue to build giant new housing developments then vote down bond elections for new schools. I cant tell you why there is such a disconnect with reality - but I can tell you that the church reinforces it.

Now - the only reason we're talking about this is Dean's comment, which i still contend offends those who are NOT Hank Hill a lot more than it encourages Hank to abandon the current 'way things are'. Of course, Dean didnt lose the south with his comments on the flag, he lost them with his 'Philadelphia Jets' comment. There is religion, then football, then politics...

especially the religion, football politics....

Nuff said.

Apparently it's not just the freepers who prefer them.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

in response to a question I asked in the civility thread, it is unacceptable to insult another poster personally but acceptable to post things that insult large numbers of posters.

So if you flame a troll, you're breaking the rules, but the troll is acting properly.

Unfortunately, I just got a PM from one of the best, most active and committed people at DU who is leaving thanks to that response. She's fed up with the bashing here and sees no need to put up with it anymore. I can't say that I blame her. Lately I have spent a good bit of time wondering whether there's really any point in coming here anymore.

Because I happen to take offense to anyone generalizing an entire race, sexual preference, gender, religion, and region in an ignorant manner. My responce was to prove how ignorant his post was. I'm sorry if you're offended.

Did I call him a pedophile? No. I'm saying though, if he's allowed to make the claim that all southerners are hick racists, then people should be allowed to paint other groups with their worst stereotypes. If you're going to bitch about my reply, bitch about his too, because in my eyes, it was just as ignorant.

I was pointing out that, according to the people who run this place, posts that gratuituously insult large numbers of people are somehow acceptable so long as they are not directed at an individual.

I agree with you that the post we were responding to is the equivalent of smearing all members of any other group.

Or are they not really southerners?

Anytime you actually want to try to discuss the issue, instead of posting twelve-year-old trolling shit, let us know.

I can tell from your post that you know *so much* about us Southerners. :eyes: With crap like that, do we wonder why Southerners feel the liberal intellectuals are too condescending?

I'm from VA and have spent a decade in the Deep South (Alabama, Mississippi, Florida). With the exception of Mississppi, I don't find the average southerner all that rascist.

America likes a certain kind of Democrat, one that is perceived as tough, not wimpy like so many I see today. And judging from the past Dem presidents, being southern doesn't hurt either...

What would Harry Truman, Scoop Jackson or even Hubert Humphrey have to say about the new breed of touchy-feely Dems?

And before you get your drawers in a bunch, that's racist white conservatives, which is what this thread is about, not southern liberals.

they're not even worth paying attention to. Sure they'll say some ignorant shit that will make you gasp, but honestly, there's no point in trying to get their votes when there are so many more moderate enlightened southerners to go after.

To them, we are racists, and they are so ignorant that they don't even realize that they are guilty of a parallel bigotry against DUers who they are alienating with such remarks.

Just the ones who fly the confederate flag.

Then how does Trent Lott keep getting reelected.

As a life-long southerner, there is no overlooking the fact that around 30 percent of the populace are dyed-in-the-wool racists. The Bible itself is not anti-democracy; Jesus advocated many ideas that are perfectly in line with modern liberal thought and completely out of line with modern fundamentalist thought. The fundamentalist lie attracts the ignorant person who probably hasn't read any but a few selected passages in the Gospels -- if the fundy has read any Gospels at all.

As a child, how many people did I hear say, "Kennedy betrayed us" -- us meaning, white people. A significant minority of southerners voted with their feet and tax money to kill the once-often excellent public schools, rather than see black children benefit from an education. They would rather destroy their own self-interest than see a black person helped. I don't know a polite word for it -- it's racism.

And, yes, there is a lot of racism in the North too, but apparently Northerners are not so eager to keep back the black family that they refuse to tax the rich man! But you can't blame any of this on the Bible.

On Edit: I should probably add that racism comes from fear -- the South is a poor region and where there are limited opportunities, people will fight among themselves for what they can get. A Democratic candidate needs to be perceived as providing opportunities for the SOUTH if he wants to overcome this racism. It didn't take a genius to see the opportunities that the Clintons brought into Arkansas. Gore perhaps might have been advised to bring a bit more pork into the southern region; he did many fine things, but too often, it wasn't clear how those fine things especially helped the SOUTH. (Yes, I know Gore won, but not by as much as he should have.) I feel we need a populist (Sharpton, perhaps) or Southern candidate (such as Clark) to take the south. Just my humble opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it.

Religion, racism and guns.

But they also tend to resent having been stigmatized as racists for so long. Civil Rights is an important battle, and there NEEDS to be dialogue. At the same time, the dialogue often is gone about the wrong way. Yes, blacks have suffered racism and it's bad and wrong that this has happened. In the process of pointing this out, southern whites have also become the target of the same unfair bias and bigotry. If a group of people feel like a political party hates them and blames them for something unfairly, they aren't going to vote for that party. Yes, there are some very religious and conservative people in the south. These same people are some of the most generous people you'd ever find. I think the Democrats can easily win over the south if they do two things...stop demonizing the south as a racist region and spend some time letting the voters there get to know the candidates.

thanks.

Having been born and raised in Kentucky I will tell you that the first time I heard real hatred toward blacks was from cousins from Dayton, Ohio. In fact they told me that my friendship with a little black girl would get me thrown in the river up there. I've never forgotten that. I hear subtle racism today (mainly about interracial dating) but I have yet to hear anything as hateful as what came out of the mouths of my northern cousins.

Kentucky is one southern state I didn't get a chance to visit yet, but if the people there are as nice as those in the other southern states I am familiar with, it must be a great place to live! You know, I tend to think it's not so much a north vs south division as it is an urban vs rural one. I have lived in the city before, but was born, raised and have returned to my rural roots. I didn't feel at all out of place in the south. There really is no significant difference between the people who live in the rural south and those who live in rural areas anywhere else. We have the same sort of "let me live my life and you live yours" mentality. We take our time and do our own thing and let our neighbors do theirs (even if we DO gossip about what they are doing over a cup of joe at the favorite diner in town). I think a lot (but certainly not all) of urban people are used to things moving faster and perhaps have lost a bit of the patience and laid back demeanor of country folks. No one is right or wrong, just living a different reality. Whatever the problem, we all would do much better with a new president, and that's the bottom line.

As long as you're not a Democrat, or liberal, or gay, or atheist/agnostic etc. If you are, they hate your guts.

Even the Democrats down there tend to be weird. Ronnie Musgrove, the Democrat everyone was cheering for down in Mississippi last night, is a pro-life conservative fundy whackjob. Can't say that I'm deeply disappointed at his loss.

I happen to be gay, Dem, liberal, and agnostic, and live in the dreaded South. I know of NO ONE who 'hates my guts'....

Where do you GET this bullshit??????????????

I'm sure there are pockets of tolerance here and there -- let me guess, you live in or around a college town -- but in the vast majority of southern cities and towns an openly gay agnostic liberal Democrat would be beaten into a pulp (or worse) if they dared to speak out in public. And if they don't hate you to your face, you can bet that they hate you and spread nasty lies about you behind your back.

From movies?? Well, I saw The Untouchables once, so that means that EVERY one in Chicago is a gangster! Wouldn't that be a silly thing to say?? You are from Washington state? Okay ... that means that you drink huge amounts of coffee at starbucks in Seattle!! Don't deny it, I KNOW you do!!! And you grow apples, and whatever else EVERYone in WA does!!! After all, EVERY person in your state is exactly the same, just as EVERY Southerner is the same. And screw the pockets of tolerance; *you* know all about us.

BTW, I once lived in repuke East TN, almost owned by the fundies. I was openly gay, worked for the Mondale campaign at the time, and my best friend, also gay worked in the same bank that I did. It was known that we stayed over at each other's houses all the time. Neither of us EVER received any threat, insult, or anything else, about ourselves. No one gave a shit.

I can't think of a single one. I remember Matthew Shephard being killed in the west and a Lesbian being killed in NYC not long ago


Where do you live, by the way?

in Palo Alto. Lots of people get bashed in lots of places.

Does this mean that I would walk down Main Street in my rural Mississippi town in a prom dress and tiara. Well, no. (Partly out of fear and partly because I make an exceedingly unattractive woman.) But have I manufactured a fake heterosexual persona here? No. And do I fear for my life here? No. In fact, my door is unlocked right now, as it almost always is when I am not out of town.

The problem with this discussion (which has mostly been a good one) is that we have some very outspoken people here who seem to be basing their remarks on what they saw on the teevee once. Real life is a hell of a lot more complex than the Dukes of Hazzard.

Alabama men accused of killing, burning gay man

Kentucky man killed because he was gay, police told

Gay men shot to death in Mississippi

Gay Texas man shot to death

Gay man murdered in Georgia

One dead, six wounded in Virginia gay bar attack

Tell me more about the tolerant south. </sarcasm>

Did you know that?

Check this out:

The five states with the highest numbers of hate crime were: California (1,648 incidents, 22.1 percent of total reported incidents), New York (693, 9.3 percent), New Jersey (570, 7.6 percent), Massachusetts (430, 5.8 percent), and Michigan (416, 5.6 percent). These five states comprise 44.7 percent of all incidents reported in the United States.

http://www.civilrights.org/issues/hate/details.cfm?id=17044

Your federal statistics are rather meaningless because *state* law enforcement has the option to not report hate crimes. Many states, particularly southern states, have taken this route. Mississippi, for example, only reported three hate crimes last year. And this is in a state with a population of 2.8 million people.

A quick google search provided me with even more info. about hate crimes in the south and confirmed my fears that southern states are underreporting them:

The number one problem today with hate crime is underreporting according to the Center for Democratic Renewal (CDR). The federal government counts hate crimes nationally, but state law enforcement agencies can choose whether or not to do so. CDR reports that hate crimes are far more common than the public realizes, that many victims are afraid to report these crimes, and that some local government agencies and university authorities do not like to report hate crime incidents for fear of bad publicity.

The problem is particularly acute in the South, where some law enforcement agencies view this category as a form of affirmative action, another "benefit" for people of color.

The case of Alabama is striking. In 1998, Alabama did not report a single hate crime. Just one year later, in 1999, a gay man in northern Alabama was badly beaten and burned to death on a pile of tires because of his sexual orientation. This same year a cross was burned on the lawn of an African-American man in the state capital. In August 2000, new Salvadoran immigrants living in Mobile find KKK literature outside their home. And in November, 2000 an African American family that moves into a predominantly white neighborhood in Montgomery finds a KKK note outside their door.

In other parts of the country hundreds of hate crimes are reported. This data collection allows citizens and government officials alike to design programs to combat this phenomenon and prevent it.

The hate crimes reported in the South are alarming. CDR found that between 1990 and 1997, more than 400 black and multiracial churches had been burned or firebombed in the United States, the majority in the South. This constitutes a direct violation of Article 5 of CERD. During this period more than 20,000 people of color had their churches destroyed at property damages exceeding $US 25 million. Attacks on churches over a century old were particularly devastating to Black communities in what was seen as an attempt to obliterate their history and culture.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/south03.htm

I had the same prejudices until I married a southern woman. The people there aren't all bad. In fact, most of them are decent hardworking people. Yes, a bunch are misguided, but it's mostly our own damn fault.

I was a southern basher. I could spew as many in-bred jokes as the next guy, and I had never actually lived there. I will tell you this much though. My wife comes from a semi rural area, next to a town of 100,000 people. She met more people she knew from 10 years ago, than she has ever met in the big urban coastal city we live in now. Yes, there were "colored folks" too. Shock, shock.

I believe that any person who bashes the south, the north, the west coast, the east coast needs to actually visit the area in depth first before subjugating a whole class of people.

Is there any wonder why southerners have turned from the democratic party after hearing the attitudes of people like the "sophisticated" urbanites posting here?

"Hi my name is Joe Democrat from NYC. I am here calling you, ya in-bred cracker, racist bigot scum and asking you to vote democratic in the presidential election, if you are actually literate enough to vote, and you aren't too busy burning a cross, or eating roadkill"

Yeah, that works to draw in the voters.

I see this same assumption come from a lot of gay people, or people of any other minority group. Most of this is your own perception because you are also buying into the divide and conquer tactics of the GOP. This is why people don't talk about these kinds of issues because they are scared to death that other people hate them just because their different. Most people don't give a flying fudge bar what you, or anyone else does in their bedroom. I mean it, they really don't care. Just about everyone knows someone who is gay, and yes, that includes people who live in the south. Yes, ten or twenty years ago you'd be right if you said there was widespread hatred of gays. That's just not the case anymore, though.

Speaking as someone who has to live here, I am quite disappointed at the loss. I guess it's easy to be cavalier from the safety of Washington, but for those of us on the ground, those of us who don't have the luxury of making sweeping, magisterial dismissals from afar, there is a hell of a lot of practical difference between a Ronnie Musgrove and a Haley Barbour.

My first child was born in Mississippi, in Biloxi. I have been inside Jefferson Davis' home and seen plenty of Rebel Flags. I've seen the laser show at Stone Mountain in Georgia and the Sumter Civil War site in Florida. I understand why the Rebel Flag is important to the south, and I know it's only a symbol of racism to a minority of southerner. Yes, Democrats can get elected in Mississippi. I'm a registered Independent swing voter. I live in Vermont now. I have also lived in Georgia and Florida. It's pretty easy for me to look at this issue from an impartial point of view because I'm not loyal to any party. The BIGGEST problem the Democrats have is a failure to frame issues properly and wasting time on issues that they shouldn't be wasting energy on. Democrats as of late have gotten so caught up with pointing out personal character defects of the opposition that they don't put enough effort into telling voters what is wrong with the policies and political actions of the opposition. With the California recall, Gray Davis should have been repeating over and over again that a lot of the reason California was having as many problems as it is was because of Bush's lousy policies. Dean made the connection for people between the tax cuts and rising state and local taxes, cuts in funding for education, etc. People need to be told about cause and effect so they understand more than who looks like the best candidate. Democrats haven't been doing that enough. Simple courtesy, respect and telling voters like it is in language they can understand, listening to what they have to say...that's really all it takes. Do those things and don't come off too radical on anything and there's no reason why anyone can't win in the south.

yeah, they're probably unfriendly. Unfortunately the attitude I've seen displayed on DU about the south makes me think they would be within their rights to be unfriendly to any number of posters here.

It's not race, gays, religion or guns. It's others trying to tell them how to live or how to change and they don't "cotton" well to that.

Has a gun in the house.

Bush 61 %
Gore 36 %

Goes to church more than once a week.

Bush 63 %
Gore 36 %

In the south, the Wendsday night meal at church followed by Sunday school, choir practice, basketball practice is standard lifestyle. I never knew that existed when I grew up in NYC.

Those two groups are motivated as hell and can be counted on to vote in far higher proportions than the general voting public.

if that's how they choose to live. Instead of seeing this as proof that southerners are simpletons a candidate should expound upon the values of churchgoing and reassure the southern male that no one wants to take away his rifles.

And I'm sure there are good folks living that same lifestyle in New York.

But I don't think our candidates should expound on the "values" of churchgoing. Most of the fundy churches down there teach that evolution is a lie (99 percent of trained biologists would disagree), that gays are evil, that a woman's place is in the kitchen, that abortion is forbidden, and that non-believers will fry in Hell for eternity. Such a sick, primitive worldview should not be encouraged by the government.

Please note that I have no problem with liberal Christians, only fundies and conservative Catholics.

That's what makes them fundamentalists. If you don't like fundamentalists, then come sit by me--I don't like them either. But pretending that the South has the monopoly on religious fundamentalism is precisely the sort of broad-brush business that pisses so many people off.

Have you ever read Oregon's state GOP platform? It sounds like Falwell himself wrote it.
http://www.orgop.org/about/platform.htm

People are just stupid all over

that's the easiest explanation and it's just kinda fun to look down your nose upon others who are less enlightened than you are. (Sarcasm)

votes. All this bru ha ha just makes them laugh. In our purity we only want certain votes--They say I will take any vote I can get.
They are happy the guys in the pick up trucks will vote for them.
Because of all this flap we are telling southerners we are snobs and do not give a darn about your vote. Until we can come together the Republicans are adding up more and more states. here is to 50 years of Republican Rule. This does not make me happy but I am getting pretty disgusted with our party. We constantly lose. On C-SPan this am there was a session in which open phones re Dean. Overswhelmingly the southerners black and white called to support Dean. Politically incorrect, let us stop Dean. When will okur party wise up and ralize we need whte southern voers as well as black southern voters.
The Republicans are thrilled to get any we are willing to cast aside.

The Democrats desegregated the south. Reagan told them it was okay to hate, and many liked that message. But somewhere between that people like Neil Young and a lot of angry white Democrats told the south they were scum, and evil, and wrong, and stupid, and racist, and beyond redemption... Heck, just read the posts on the south here at DU.

Riddle me this... Who do you like better, someone who wants to be your friend, or someone who hates you, insults you, and wants you to go away?

Good question.

Requires looking into, would be a good issues to write about on my website, thanks for the idea. Could it be there are more elderly americans south, and most elderly are usually conservative?

Just a thougth

T.B.
http://conservativeissues.com
Balancing out Politics

I have lived in E. Tennessee my whole life and I think those three things are probably the biggest reasons in my opinion. I also have to be honest and say that for some race does indeed play a part. Of course we all aren't driving around in pick-ups with that flag either.

I also think it's in a southerner's (not all) nature to be more trusting. So, you have the Pukes constantly saying they are the party for you if you go to church, want a gun, oppose abortion, etc. The Pukes have played that line for all it's worth here. I'm telling you a large majority of people here think Chimpy has the moon hanging out his arse. Their blind faith in him is scary.

Even though I didn't like the phrasing of Dean's remarks he has a point. We have to make it clearer to the people here why we are a better choice for them. We won't do it by just portraying Chimpy as a lying scew up. That will not work here. We have to show how the Democratic way of running this country better benefits people in South's lives on a day to day basis. They knew it when Clinton was in office for a time and then the Pukes so succesfully touted the Monica thing for all it was worth. Stupid reason for going Puke down here? Sure, but many many did. It was so well played here that people remember that not how they prospered during the Clinton years. We have to remind them!