Dean Confederate Flag Flap Not Yet Over...

Article by Washington Post's Jim VandeHai

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3651-2003Nov5.html

Dean said he meant to provoke a "painful" dialogue about race with all voters, including those displaying Confederate flags, but "I started this discussion in a clumsy way." He did not explicitly apologize, however.

Still Dean, who stubbornly refused to distance himself from the comments during Tuesday night's debate in Boston, clearly recognized the flag flap was exploding into a big political problem. Since making the comments on Friday, Dean has been sharply rebuked, not just by his rivals but by prominent national Democrats such as New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, chair of the party's nominating convention next year.

The controversy is unlikely to fade soon, Democrats said. "Howard Dean has finally admitted that his words have caused pain but I am puzzled as to why he does not seem to regret the words that caused the pain," said Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.), one of Dean's rivals. "Rather than politics as usual, Howard Dean should have taken responsibility for his rhetoric and simply said 'I was wrong.'"

Matt Bennett, spokesman for retired Army Gen. Wesley K. Clark, said Dean's comments will have a lasting effect, especially when the campaign moves down south to places such as South Carolina. "He just has the wrong idea about how you should communicate with southerners," said Bennett. "It's not surprising for a governor from Vermont, but it's going to be a major problem."

Strategist for several campaigns predicted the Confederate flag comment will reappear in television ads later in the campaign, perhaps in South Carolina, site of an early primary on Feb. 3.

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You saved me the trouble of posting this in its own thread.

===

Southern Comforting

By Debra McCorkle, AlterNet
November 5, 2003

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17125

Howard Dean was obviously born north of the Mason-Dixon Line. He proved it with the well-meaning but badly-stated desire to "want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks." Howard, if you were a southerner, you would never call your future constituents rednecks! You would win them over by descriptions of your grandma's fried apple turnovers, or recalling a moment in which you begged Jesus Christ to help you, or by confessing your love for a Johnny Cash song. See, that's how I haven't gotten run out of my southern town yet for my liberal views. I bury that horse pill of Democratic leanings in a sweet potato soufflé of my genuine southern life. I refuse to believe that the South really belongs to the Republicans. I just tend to think that the conservatives mix the stuff that concerns the citizenry with a heaping spoonful of Dixie Crystal sugar. They sweeten that iced tea while a candidate from Vermont sticks a glass of Lipton Instant in our faces with two cubes of ice and a packet of Sweet and Low and tells us to drink it. It's just not the same, Howard.

Of course you want to be the candidate of the trailer park as well as of Hilton Head's Sun City. However, it's pretty obvious to me that you haven't read your Molly Ivins or even your Jeff Foxworthy. No matter how I feel about you, Mr. Dean, I have doubts that we're gonna be able to work this out. Wesley Clark did not tickle my innards when he announced his intention to court me and the others; still, the man has lived in Arkansas enough to be technically southern, even if he spent most of those years in the army. What's more, military life has a similarity to southern life – you can't always say exactly what you think without a little obfuscation in order not to get folks all upset. My spiritual teacher Jill Conner Browne, head of the Sweet Potato Queens of Jackson, MS, said that if you really think that so-and-so is a complete psychobitch, you just say "that so-and-so, bless her little heart," since we southerners can't actually say what we think in polite society. All the women will know what we really mean, and all the men will still think we're nice proper ladies.

(snip)

Candidate Dean, you said what you did about those rebel flag pickups because you said that those people "ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too." Now, no one's arguing that we need health insurance and good schools. While Bush is sending our grandchildren's future tax dollars to Vietnam, uh, I mean Iraq, teachers are teaching for free some days in order to keep schools running. None of my friends have health insurance except for those who work for corporations or the government, and the benefits of most have been cut during the Bush administration.

Howard, I suggest that you hush up about rebel flags this week and tell us some stories. When I have a waitress friend who begs her doctor for amoxicillin instead of the stronger zithromax because it costs one tenth the price even though she needs to get well fast, my trucking buddies are going to understand that as quickly as my great aunt. When I see a decades-old factory close, leaving hundreds of workers unemployed, because they can move the thing to China and employ slave labor so that Wal-Mart's profits are assured, the common man and woman can understand that something is wrong. When the richest of the rich prosper through tax cuts in a period of recession while the poorest parents skip meals, people will question the direction our country is heading. Tell anecdotes; don't preach about constituencies, Howard. The truth is, politics in itself is pretty boring, a bean counter's concern. Breathe a little life into it with some storytelling. Go Faulkner on us, and don't forget a little Flannery, because weirdness is what America is all about.

...more...

But I think America has pussyfooted around race for too long.

The Republicans use it against us in the South every goddamn election. The use it to divide and distract southern voters.

If this starts a dialogue than more power to Dean. At least someone is willing to take risks, chances and break us out of the this tragic slope we are sliding down.

Dean is good for America and and good for the Democratic Party - even if he loses.

Dean might have been born above the Mason Dixon line, but that is no crime. I give him points for his balls alone.

:)

You're sure showin 'em that you're in the loop! :eyes:


How's your man Kerry doing by the way?

Has he spent that amazing 4 mil he raised last quarter yet?

How's he polling in NH?


Keep up the attacks friends. Watch Dean's numbers SOAR!

but thanks for playing.

for. 'Balls to the wall' politics..ahhh...there's nothing like it.

Dean '04...Rebel with a Cause!!

Maybe our man Howard can find some Southerners who will share their stories with him so he'll share them with us.

Best advice for a candidate. Ever.

Show, don't tell.

Dean, you just keep being Dean! Your leading and the rest are either following, or as you so aptly put it, they are taking shots at your backside. LOL

I'd go with Twain.

Love the southern stories though...bet they are
more widespread than in just the South.

I'm surprised you giving in Will.

What changed that made you post this?

I posted this article because it was a different take and was well-written. I do occasionally post things that verge outside my opinions.

It isn't like I didn't know that some people are turned off by straight talk.

was perfect!

I want to thank you for what you just wrote, as someone from the south, you are a true gentleman.

But thanks. :)

Thanks for posting it.

She's a really good writer.

"Democratic presidential hopeful former Gov. Howard Dean (news - web sites) of Vermont, left, clasps hands with Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, right, moments after the televised Rock the Vote Democratic presidential debate at Boston's Faneuil Hall, Tuesday, Nov. 4, 2003. The two hopefuls had a heated exchanged during the debate concerning voters who display the Confederate flag."(AP Photo/Michael Dwyer, Pool)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=650235

John Nichols: Rebel flag flap shows media failure

If you want to understand just about everything that is wrong with the way American politics is practiced these days - and especially with the malpractice of the media - consider the absurd controversy about Howard Dean's comment that "I want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."
…
What isn't being reported is this reality: Every single presidential candidate who is now expressing concern about Dean's remark has sat in meetings where political operatives, pollsters and consultants have discussed strategies for winning the votes of white working-class males. These voters, whose economic interests would be at least somewhat better served by Democratic policies but who tend to vote Republican for social and cultural reasons, have fueled the rise of the GOP in recent years. And Democrats are obsessed with figuring out how to reach them.

So why has the Dean comment proved to be so controversial? Good question. It has something to do with the desperation of the other candidates, who have had a hard time keeping up with the former Vermont governor's fund-raising juggernaut and highly effective grass-roots campaign. But, in truth, it has a lot more to do with the media.

Too many political reporters practice stenography to power. They simply take down what candidates have to say. This week, the other candidates are trying to paint Dean as the reincarnation of Jefferson Davis, and the media are dutifully reporting it.

More responsible and engaged media would stop to ask the deeper questions: Why do so many white working-class males vote against their own economic interests? Is it because they are racists who really do embrace the Confederacy's legacy? Is it because the Democratic Party has so abandoned populist economic messages that even voters in what were once traditional Democratic constituencies have lost faith in the party and its candidates? The answers to these questions are complicated; but they are at the core of any serious examination of our politics.

Unfortunately, most politicians are unwilling to engage in real discussions about race and economics, let alone the complex zones in which they intersect. And as the current controversy illustrates, most political reporters have lost the inclination, and perhaps even the ability, to demand better of the politicians.
…
http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/column/nichols/60451.php

Howard Dean campaigns in Tallahassee

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."

Dean, making his first campaign foray into North Florida, spoke at a rally in Jacksonville then addressed more than 500 people at a luncheon of the Capital Tiger Bay Club.
…
Dean said he hopes to reassemble a coalition of conservative southern voters like President Franklin Roosevelt had in the "solid South" 70 years ago. Although his opposition to the war in Iraq and his criticism of the Bush tax cuts do not score well in polls in the South, Dean said he hopes working families will support his call for improving education and health care.
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/7181952.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=76824

Did these SOUTHERN, BLACK, Baptists have a problem with Dean's remarks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=73335

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."

What is that saying--when you are in a hole, stop digging!

you would think he could afford some decent handlers.

Right on the mark. Thanks, WRP.

"I have a great friend from Cairo, GA who often winces at the plainspoken and often harsh words of his girlfriend toward others. One time he just smiled at me sadly and said, "She's from Michigan, you know." We both knew what he meant. I might agree with her eight times out of ten, but she needs some tutoring. The south might be a hotbed of Baptist fundamentalism, but we strive to be silver-tongued devils."

I'm from Minnesota - you know? ;)

I said yesterday, Dean's got "balz" but he needs a little "butta".

I guess I felt the same way about Jimmy Carter, even being a Northerner. He was my favorite president.

Still, Dean means well, and I think that what he is saying will get through, even if he stumbles along the way. But, he could do to learn alot more about Southern ways.

Has it right. Tell stories. That's what works here.

But, not one of the candidates is hitting on the biggest single issue. The export of factory jobs. It just amazes me that none of the candidates isn't down here at any of the weekly factory closings talking about what he or she is going to do for the working people of the south. I'd prefer it be Howard, but please, somebody, bring it on down.

He said it...that should get the people he was talking about thinking about supporting him because they will believe in their heart of hearts that deep down inside he is really as racist as they are. He kinda apologized so that will keep the base from being too offended.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-rice6nov06,1,7780769.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

Confederate Flap: Stand Firm, Howard Dean
Candidate's allusion to poor Southern whites opens an important issue.


Spotlight

Candidates
Inside the White House
Commentary
Complete Coverage

Times Headlines

Al Sharpton Represents Just One Constituency -- Al Sharpton


Has Cheney Turned Into a Liability?


Arbitration Can Be the Key, Despite MTA's Resistance


Confederate Flap: Stand Firm, Howard Dean


More Than a Moscow Morality Play


more >







COMMENTARY











By Constance L. Rice, Constance L. Rice is a civil rights attorney.


Howard Dean wants to represent angry white Confederate flag-wavers. He even quotes Martin Luther King Jr. in doing so. And in a televised debate Tuesday he refused to say he was sorry for starting this tempest.

Well, Dr. Dean, you may have clumsily launched this issue, but keep at it and keep quoting, because you're right.

No, this is not a missive from a Southern rebel driving a Confederate flag-festooned F-150 half-ton to a Civil War reenactment. It's from the great-granddaughter of slaves — and slave owners. A civil rights lawyer, no less, who knows full well the toxic pain and pride tangled in all symbols of the slavocracy known as Dixie.

Dean is right for three reasons.


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Eloriel

Howard, if you were a southerner, you would never call your future constituents rednecks!

When, exactly, did Dean call his future (technically, POSSIBLE future constituents) "rednecks?"

Uh oh! And then there were none.

Kerry claiming he should have said he was wrong! Hooboy!

Wrong idea about how to communicate with southerners? I guess we'll find out, but it's a pretty clumsy thing to say this early.

To quote the Clash "Waiting for the clampdown". Washington Post???

as in a failure to communicate.

I don't want to beat Dean up on this anymore, but he really needs to learn how to speak extemporaneously, and better express himself. He's a good intentioned person- just a little clumsy in the diplomacy dept.

It is nothing of the sort. You never liked Dean.

about it like Kerry did, spin it like Sharpton did... or just plain be stupid about it like Edwards did.



What Dean said was right, and he was right to say it, as he's beeen saying it for 10 months.

The only ones trying to make anything of this are the other candidaes who are LOSING... and their few supproters.

The night of the dog pile at the "debate" I thought it would be highly amusing if Dean stood up and did a great delivery of the line: What we have here is a failure to communicate.

hahahahahaha

A movie line in response to surreal attacks, oh the irony!!

Julie--who appreciates irony

"Edwards, who represents North Carolina in the Senate, might want to get back to the South one of these days and take a look in some parking lots. Southerners who drive trucks do embrace this symbol, as do a lot of rural northerners with pickup trucks."

I think Dean has a handle on the Northerners that drive pick up trucks and is reaching out for the Southerners that drive pick up trucks. He is a uniter, not a divider IMHO.

Dean may do well with Edwards as a VP, but he lost a few points from me, as did the others, in these senseless attacks.

Of course, who can blame them?

and has yet to apologize. Give me a break.

...the prases he gave Bush & the PNAC gang during the Lincon Dinner?
...the bombinb of cavilan targets in Kosevo.
...lying about being a registured democrat when he had yet to fill out the paper work. (Did he take care of that yet?)

...the prases he gave Bush & the PNAC gang during the Lincon Dinner?

He said nothing he should apologize for, and nothing that all of the candidates haven't said to Republicans during what is supposed to be a polite exchange. Hell, there are people on DU that are working against me and my interests, and even I'm polite to them sometimes, and will give out faint praise, and I'm not even a politician. I don't insult my hosts either.

...lying about being a registured democrat when he had yet to fill out the paper work. (Did he take care of that yet?)

He didn't lie about being a registered Democrat. He was a long time registered independent in Arkansas and reregistered as a Democrat shortly after he announced. I was the one that posted the story to DU, from the Economist I believe.

...the bombinb of cavilan targets in Kosevo.

No he didn't apologize. Neither did JFK, FDR, Truman, LBJ, nor Clinton. What does that tell you? If Dean becomes president do you think he will apologize after he bombs civilian targets? Maybe Dean should ask Clark to apologize at the next debate? That would be interesting :)

"He said nothing he should apologize for, and nothing that all of the candidates haven't said to Republicans during what is supposed to be a polite exchange. Hell, there are people on DU that are working against me and my interests, and even I'm polite to them sometimes, and will give out faint praise, and I'm not even a politician. I don't insult my hosts either."

where they went to a republican fundraiser in 2001 and said that Reagan and Bush I were great leaders to whom we are all greatful?


"He didn't lie about being a registered Democrat."

His campaign did...

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030922-105420-9821r.htm

Since entering the race, Mr. Clark has made a series of gaffes.
He waffled last week over whether he would have voted for the resolution to launch war against Iraq. Eventually, he settled on saying, "I don't know whether I would have or not. I've said it both ways."
Mr. Clark also confused some supporters over the depth of his Democratic credentials. After voting for Republicans Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan for president, Mr. Clark said he became a Democrat listening to Mr. Clinton's early presidential campaign speeches. Then, it was revealed, he spoke at a Republican Party fund-raiser in 2001 and was registered as an independent.
Telephone messages left with Mr. Clark's campaign office in Arkansas were not returned.



http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/oct2003/nf2003101_0874_db038.htm

"A Clark campaign spokesman at first told BusinessWeek that the former general had in fact updated his voter registration to reflect his newfound status as a Democrat. But a call to the Pulaski County Voter Registrar indicated otherwise. When asked to explain the discrepancy, campaign consultant Mark Fabiani says Clark hadn't yet had time to register as a Democrat. "




...the bombinb of cavilan targets in Kosevo.

"No he didn't apologize."

In fact he defended his choice to commit the war crime of murdering journalists.

Extra! July/August 1999 Legitimate Targets? How U.S. Media Supported War Crimes in Yugoslavia - By Jim Naureckas
NATO justified the bombing of the Belgrade TV station, saying it was a legitimate military target. "We've struck at his TV stations and transmitters because they're as much a part of his military machine prolonging and promoting this conflict as his army and security forces," U.S. General Wesley Clark explained--"his," of course, referring to Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic. It wasn't Milosevic, however, who was killed when the Belgrade studios were bombed on April 23, but rather 20 journalists, technicians and other civilians.

Clark's logic is exactly the same as that of the death squad commander who orders the assassination of a journalist or a publisher whose opposition newspaper supports the goals of a guerrilla movement. The targeting of the studio was a war crime, perhaps the most indisputable of several war crimes committed by NATO in its war against Yugoslavia.

Because everyone needs to weigh in with their opinion!

If Dean wins the nomination to scare black voters and piss off Southern whites.

Anyway, I'm glad that Dean started the debate but regret that he did it in a clumsy way. At least he sees that.

I agree with Dean, we need to show poor white voters from the south that they are getting screwed by the Republicans. We need to reach out to them but we can't do it by using stereotypes.

An apology would be noble!

I agree with Dave29; Kerry is the one who should be apologizing. As for the Repugs using Dean's comments to scare black voters away... well, anyone whose stupid enough to let a race issue drive them into George W. BUSH's arms, gets what they deserve.

Seriously, we need to stop pandering to the stupidity that defines the American public. We need to start taking stands and educating the public.

n/t

most of them are pro rebel flag. Frankly Dean never had the South, and has nothing to lose there, so this is just bitching and moaning from hypocrites like Edwards, who have said the same thing as Dean. Edwards called the rebel flag a frivolous and divisive culture war issue on TV a while back.

you know much about the south.

won Georgia campaigning in support of the rebel flag, and 2 referendums removing the rebel flag from the state houses of South Carolina and Mississippi went down in massive defeat. Say what?

...he should just play Johnny Cash's "Hurt" on his guitar to better woo the Southern voters.

Later.

RJS

It's just never enough with his critics -- they have to milk this thing for all it's worth because they can't rely on their own campaigns to move up in the polls. Desperate and stupid! :grr:

you must realize

They can now publicy rationalize using race more openly now that Dean apparently has played the Confederate flag card it by saying that the Democats do it too. it doesn't have be covert or subliminal anymore. This is a test of the integrity of our party. There is too much at stake, even more than the next election to ever have this race baiting bumbler leading our party.

:wtf: Even Sharpton said he's not a racist. :wtf:

Dean played the Confederate flag card to appeal to NRA types and to come with a mythological strategy to pump up his base to raise more $. In fact the latest use was in regard to the NRA and not to healthcare.

this was taken out of context in an interview that included several different issues, including the NRA.

Dean said the same thing he has been saying since back in feb....

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

and here is what he said the other night...

"I'm not going to take a back seat to anybody in terms of fighting bigotry. I'm the only person here that signed a bill that outlawed discrimination against gays and lesbians by giving them the same rights .

"What I discovered is that the fear of people who opposed that bill, the majority of people in my state, was mostly based on ignorance. We have to reach out to every American. We don't have to embrace the confederate flag and I never suggested we do. We have to reach out to all disenfranchised people. Robert Kennedy brought people together. Jesse Jackson did it. We're going to bring people together in this country. I understand the confederate flag is a loathesome symbol, just as I understood the anti-gay slurs I had to put up with after I signed that bill were loathesome. If we don't reach out to every American we can't win. I've had enough of campaigns based on fear, I want a campaign based on hope." -- Howard Dean, Rock the Vote Forum, Boston, 11/4/03

The Dean camp is sounding more and more like the end always justifies the means. No one put those ill fated words in his mouth. I think he snuck the appeal by polite society for awhile, got caught, took his lumps, got his sins forgiven and now has both feathers in his cap. Howard Dean is a man of great hubris and cynicism. Someone who was endorsed 8 times by a known racist organization such the NRA without complaining is now telling us how to all get along?

Everyone who say his comments in context knew what his point was, and he apologized for saying it clumsily.

It promises to be a fight worthy of our great party.

The winner of the nomination get to take on an increasingly vulnerable Bush.

As Molly Ivins said in the newest issue of The Progressive magazine, "Poor Bush is in way over his head, and the country is in bad shape because of his stupid economic policies."

He's been talking about this flag since February. Now he wants to be the candidate FOR those waving that flag. Then he excuses it by saying he wants to start a debate. What debate? He's had since February to start the debate, what's he waiting for?

When you've seen the quotes posted over and over again?

Dean said the same thing he has been saying since back in feb....

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

and here is what he said the other night...

"I'm not going to take a back seat to anybody in terms of fighting bigotry. I'm the only person here that signed a bill that outlawed discrimination against gays and lesbians by giving them the same rights .

"What I discovered is that the fear of people who opposed that bill, the majority of people in my state, was mostly based on ignorance. We have to reach out to every American. We don't have to embrace the confederate flag and I never suggested we do. We have to reach out to all disenfranchised people. Robert Kennedy brought people together. Jesse Jackson did it. We're going to bring people together in this country. I understand the confederate flag is a loathesome symbol, just as I understood the anti-gay slurs I had to put up with after I signed that bill were loathesome. If we don't reach out to every American we can't win. I've had enough of campaigns based on fear, I want a campaign based on hope." -- Howard Dean, Rock the Vote Forum, Boston, 11/4/03

...for making a simple point without covering it up with PC nonsense.

For every person who is looking for a reason to get offended by a well-intentioned comment, there are 3 who are sick of PC bullsh*t, parsed words and statements carefully crafted to mean absolutely nothing.

Our DUer Thorstein gave Dean "two points for balls"!

The other candidate resorted to the same old PC scare tactic crap, which is nothing more than the other side of the southern strategy.

Republicans are not the only one to benefit from dividing people based on race rhetoric. And the prospect of Dean trying to bring folks together instead of driving a wedge between these groups, scares the hell out of these status quo punks.

I didn't see anything wrong with it until he tried to justify it by saying, "I make no apologies for reaching out to poor white people." Could his contempt for white Southerners be any more transparent? As if everyone who flies a Confederate flag is some toothless rube.

I think he shot himself in both feet, first by pissing off blacks and then by patronizing white Southerners.

Damn, I have been a Dean man up to now. Oh well, I'll probably stay with him.

"I didn't see anything wrong with it until he tried to justify it by saying, "I make no apologies for reaching out to poor white people." Could his contempt for white Southerners be any more transparent? As if everyone who flies a Confederate flag is some toothless rube."

No, but the rich ones are not the ones who need healthcare and better schools for their kids.

This whole thing was addressing poor and working class folks. He's not saying that all folks who might fly the flag are poor toothless rubes. Rather he is talking to the poor working class folks who have been hoodwinked by the republican southern strategy AND using the flag on the truck as a reference to that group.

...new England, Dean has a somewhat cartoonish view of the South. I spent most of my life in the South and it is one of the most dynamic parts of the country.

really was minor and would no big deal. I was so glad that he and Crowley weren't focussing on all this....

I really was alarmed to see Edwards and Sharpton escalate this...I'm not a Dean supporter (uncommitted) but I just think they went overboard. I didn't really like Dean's initial comment, but to see this turn up in primary ads is not making me feel very good at all at this point.

I guess the whole thing reiterates my hesitation about Dean's style. I love the brashness, but he does sometimes say things that are just a bit too "un-nuanced." I think it opens himself up to attacks that might not ever get off the ground if he had spoken a little bit more carefully.

Right now, I'm just feeling unhappy about the whole Democratic mess, including the governorships that were lost.
I'm worried about the economy taking off, an Iraq pullout, another war etc etc. And the media that will go out of its way to bury any Dem message....

hi!

ahh politics. everyone knew exactly what dean was saying (altough those w/ conf flags on their vehicles may be scratching their heads) and john edwards has been a pretty poor senator, so that finger-pointing was just silly and embarrassing. north carolinians, incl. many liberals i have spoken to, wouldn't vote for him, when i moved back here from nyc 2 years ago i was shocked to hear unpopular he is. he should know this, and he isn't helping. as an undecided, i admire dean even more.

isn't clark camera ready? clearly much brain power working amongst most of the candidates.:)

:D

Another tarheel here.

view ...http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/11/04/confederate_flag/index.html

"Can Kerry possibly think Dean "embraced" the Confederate flag with his statement? Of course not. So Kerry's huffy reaction makes him look dishonest, not courageous. And sure, Gephardt is entitled to pass up the support of anyone he chooses, but his self-righteous Dean bashing just confirms the electorate's suspicions that Democrats are elitists who prefer ideological purity to mass appeal when casting their net for supporters."


I got it from this thread..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=656715

For months now everyone has seated bullets on how we can stop Dean.
This is being blown out of proportion in hopes Dean can be stopped.

Sorry. I just wanted to say "flag flip flop". Couldn't resist.

Flag Flip Flop! :D

hit off the clue bong?

"Howard Dean has finally admitted that his words have caused pain but I am puzzled as to why he does not seem to regret the words that caused the pain," said Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.),

"This discussion will be painful, and I regret the pain that I may have caused either to African-American or southern white voters in the beginning of this discussion. But we need to have this discussion in an honest open way." - Dean

Take another hit Kerry and tell us your strategy for bringing the NASCAR dads into the fold.

:)

Well, that certainly worked for Jesse Helms.

But he's still an asshole.

in the editorial thread?

oh wait, it's negative about Dean, so I guess it gets to stay.

:loveya:

Oh, and btw, just in case the Dean-bashers have not gotten yet...THIS IS A NON-ISSUE!

And....

If shrub gets to whore for all his votes, then I say our candidate can do the same (be it Dean, hopefully, or anyone else). I see nothing wrong with pandering at this point. It's going to be a close election, and I will accept almost everyone under our big tent in order to get that weasel out of the WH next year. So can the Dean-haters here please get a grip and get their candidates to focus on ousting the current regime rather than helping them?!

But I know what you mean. I always look on the bright side of life (whistling) ...

So, is that Closer, as in the pitcher that comes in to finish the game, or as in nearer?

He said "I am sorry for any pain that I have caused" in reference to his comments. Which I thought was a ridiculous thing to have to say for comments as harmless as what he said.

By the way, I WANT a candidate that can also be the candidate of the guys with confederate flags in their trucks, and I'm NOT apologizing for that. :) We need all the help we can get - even redneck help.

Dean said he meant to provoke a "painful" dialogue about race with all voters, including those displaying Confederate flags, but "I started this discussion in a clumsy way."

IMO that's exactly what he did, and I'm glad he acknowledged it. Kerry says Dean should say "I was wrong," but I don't agree with him (although I still think Kerry would be a better president).

I've posted in a couple of these Dean threads saying he should have known this kind of comment would bring fire from all sides. And I can't blame any candidate for using it against him, politics being what it is. But I really hope this things fades. It makes all the candidates look worse, both Dean and his attackers.

B'Bye

Dean made a mistake. I'm not surprised that there's some anger, but we know he's not a racist - and everyone should get behind him if he's the nominee. Bush has wrecked everything even worse than I thought he would. But will blacks and southern, white conservatives be motivated by Dean? I don't know, but we're helped a lot when our African American base turns out. And it would nice insurance to win at least a couple Southern states.

Hopefully another Dean fan can alleviate my worries..

When the wingnuts start coming into your corner, be very very careful.

Of course, I am enjoying watching Dean weasel his way out of this one. His attempt at reversing the Nixonian southern strategy is flailing.

Personally, I think too much is being made of the flap, but anything that exposes Dean for the reckless, pandering, phony, smirking, hotheaded non-entity that he is, is okay by me. :-)

Things that make you go Mmmmmmmmmm. It's like watching all your friends invest in some Ponzi scheme. You know the guy is a self admitted petty thief in his youth and now is a notorious opportunist. His deals don't make sense, but try, try as one might, you can't convince your friends, they sent the $100 bucks in and drank the Kool Aid. You know the pain is going to come and it's going to be massive, but your friends keep smilingly send their money like some bizarro world hybrid of PBS and Oral Roberts.

Who's the Real Howard Dean?

As Vermont governor, the liberal firebrand was a fiscal conservative with close ties to business

Howard Dean has fought his way to the front of the Democratic pack jostling for the 2004 Presidential nomination partly because he has won the hearts of so many liberals with his antiwar rhetoric and shoot-from-the-lip style. But who is the real Howard Dean? Is he the left-of-center insurgent being portrayed in the press or the business-friendly fiscal conservative and pragmatic moderate who governed Vermont for 11 years?

Many who worked with Dean are astonished at his current image and comparisons to liberal icons such as George McGovern. "The Howard Dean you are seeing on the national scene is not the Dean that we saw around here for the last decade," says John McClaughry, president of the Ethan Allen Institute, a conservative Vermont think tank. "He's moved sharply left."

Conservative Vermont business leaders praise Dean's record and his unceasing efforts to balance the budget, even though Vermont is the only state where a balanced budget is not constitutionally required. Moreover, they argue that the two most liberal policies adopted during Dean's tenure -- the "civil unions" law and a radical revamping of public school financing -- were instigated by Vermont's ultraliberal Supreme Court rather than Dean. "He was not a left-wing wacko," says Bill Stenger, a Republican and president of Jay Peak Resort, who says he supported Dean because of his "fiscally responsible, socially conscious policies."

Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations. When Canada's Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. wanted to build a new manufacturing plant on 700 acres of Vermont farmland in the mid-'90s, for instance, Dean greased the wheels. Husky obtained the necessary permits in near-record time. "He was very hands-on," says an appreciative Dirk Schlimm, the Husky executive in charge of the project.

CONTINUED ...

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_32/b3845084.htm