prominent Confederate flag-waver (R-SC) calls Dean "a great American"

Dean's Flag Remarks Thrill and Repel in South

By DAVID M. HALBFINGER
Published: November 8, 2003

COLUMBIA, S.C., Nov. 6 — Tywon McLamore is 21 and black and has been thinking about putting a Confederate flag sticker on his bumper, to make a statement.

…

But Mr. McLamore has no use for those who fly the flag as a divisive symbol — or for Howard Dean, who stepped into trouble this week by saying he wanted to gain the votes of the rebel-flag-waving crowd.

…

Mr. Bessinger, who is 73 and white, flies the Confederate flag all over Piggy Park, his barbecue joint a few minutes west of the capital, where he also gives away booklets calling Lincoln a traitor. His reputation is such that many grocery stores will not sell his barbecue sauce.

And he was just thrilled by Dr. Dean's remark, calling it proof that the South is rising again, at least politically. "They've got to get our vote to win," he said.

"If I was voting in the Democratic primary, I'd vote for Dean," Mr. Bessinger said, recording his own words to make sure a Yankee newspaper did not misquote him. "No doubt about it — he's a great American."

Mr. McLamore's disapproval and Mr. Bessinger's embrace neatly encapsulate the problem that Dr. Dean's remark has caused him here in South Carolina, where he barely has an organization. In courting what Southerners bluntly call the redneck vote, Dr. Dean was trying to cross a divide that many Democrats would love to see bridged: bringing back to the party poor, rural whites who have spent the last few decades voting Republican.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/08/national/08CARO.html?ex=1068958800&en=c9caf6d10fce18e6&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

If we are going down in 2004, we are going down fucking fighting to the last goddamn bullet!

Howard Dean has got great big BALLS - and he is not afraid to use them.

Howard Dean is the only leader we have among cowards and sycophants.

04. I say we take dean all the way, the man has fire in his belly and I like it. the rest of the group should get out of the way.

Do we have anybody that is out-and-out evil like Rove? Are we going to hire people to do push-polling for us? It would be so easy to poll people, "Would you be less likely to vote for George Bush if you knew he used cocaine, was a serious alcohol abuser, is still AWOL from the military and knew bin Laden was planning to attack the US and did nothing?"

who was turned off by Dean's remarks

turned off by his remark. Mark that ONE Southerner in this thread only who was turned off by it.

And look back through old threads on this same topic and you will find more.

Truth be known, if you are a Democrat, you are likely to vote for the Democratic nominee, even if it is Dean.

If the southern swing voters are OK with what he said, then that's more Democratic votes.

The thing is, the opinions of those on this board are not what counts this time - he wasn't directing his statement to you.

so you don't count since you are either: 1) a Bush lover; 2) a Dean hater; 3) brainwashed by the DLC; 4) just too dumb to know that Dean is the Messaiah.

But their human, and bless their hearts, we ought to help 'em anyway.
Not sure if I've got my sarcasm on or off. :shrug:

I don't you're going to find too many Southerners who are going to vhastise Dean for recognizing that the South is part of America too- warts and all.

What turns me off? People who would rather curse the darkness than light a candle- Dean is a very bright light ight now.

I have my doubts that Dean is the candidate than can get rural southern whites to vote Democratic again, but if he can I'm all for it. I'm glad that Dean, Edwards, and Sharpton all made up after that BS from last week.

I'd like to spend less time talking about the confederate flag and more time talking about exactly how the Democrats are going to help the southern white working class?

Nothing. Wasted effort and shows a fundamental miscalculation of what the Southern voting population is truly like.

God, you guys get soooo defensive when someone offers an opposing opinion.

I know of what I speak. :-)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/10/08_right.html

Greetings From Your Secret Allies on the Right
October 8, 2002
By Anonymous
Yes, that's right. You heard me. We are allies.

I am one of liberalism's secret new allies. There are many of us; millions of us in fact. We are denizens of the Right... the true Right - the Third Party Right. The Pat Buchanan Right..the Libertarian Right..of half a dozen other small parties. We're not the right-wing of the neoconservative, snotty, elitist, oil-sucking Republican Party. We're the real conservatives... and we have more in common with you now than we ever will with the loathsome imperialist jackboots who are squatting in our White House.

Most of us were Republicans once. We laughed at Clinton, a lot. We helped demonize him in the Press. I have a confession to make: Even though I never liked Clinton and I don't like him now, I wish he was still in office. I miss him. No, I am not being sarcastic.

Bill Clinton was not a warmonger..he was not a second coming of Napoleon Bonaparte, minus 80 IQ points. We now have a silly, illiterate clown who rose to power through family nepotism and he's our Commander In Chief... and he is dragging us all into a Third World War. A world war that will be paid for in blood, by our children.
...
We want to join you in an effort to repeal the institutionalized fascism that has come out of the "War On Terror." We want to castrate Big Brother. We want to help you un-elect as many national GOP leaders as possible. We want to end this foolish military adventurism.

... continued

Failed to see where it said anything about it being from a southerner and failed to see how in any way it represents the mindset of the confederate-flag folks that Dean mentioned.

Most southerners who can't afford healthcare surely wouldn't send DU an email that they won't cry in their "starbucks latte." LOL!

It's a good article, though. I have no doubt that republicans in other regions will swing...won't happen in the south...remember, Haley Barbour was just elected in Mississippi a month AFTER that "anonymous" article was written.

if you want more criticism of Bush from the right-center and right.

The ground is ripe for picking swing voters.

"bringing back to the party poor, rural whites who have spent the last few decades voting Republican." :D

I wouldn't have posted MY reply. Right on point.

"If I was voting in the Democratic primary, I'd vote for Dean," Mr. Bessinger said, recording his own words to make sure a Yankee newspaper did not misquote him. "No doubt about it — he's a great American."

You see, what I and other southern dems have been trying to tell you is that you will not get the core, flag-toting, Republicans to swing, because they are too suspicious of the Democratic party to do so.

Most Southern Dems who have remained with the party through thick and thin are a hell of a lot more progressive than Bessinger, so Dean's appeal missed (or offended) them, since it was targeted at people like Bessinger, for whom there is no hope of getting his vote.

:think:

I would put every cent I have in savings, well HELL in equity and all my worldly possessions on the table in a bet with you that Bessimer will vote Bush in general. C'mon...you can't tell me you have any doubt of that.


:boring:

I do fully expect if Dean gets the nomination that he'll spend A LOT of time talking to southerners about their problems. If this person feels Dean is a 'good American', he may be turned on by the fact Dean may change the economy of the poverty stricken south.

In all practicality, no.

Dean is no messiah who will change die hard racists into democratic voters. Won't happen.

I have wasted so much time explaining why, and frankly am too tired to discuss it now.

It isn't like Southern republicans aren't aware of their economic problems--they are--but Dean would have to become staunchly pro-life; a subtle race-bater; and he would have to denounce any affiliation he has had with lesbian and gay interests--oh, and he would have to be home-grown before any conservative Republican would even consider swinging to vote for him.

So, are you ready to sacrifice what it would take to accomplish this? Ready to make our party into an anti-choice, homophobic, racist party just to bring over a couple hundred Republicans who represent the absolute lowest element of the South, North, or ANY region? At what cost?

There are other Southerners on DU who have tried to put this Confederate flag thing into context. That, apparently, is not what Dr. Dean's supporters want to hear. I've run into the same phenomenon here. I think you have done an outstanding job of explaining things in simple, concrete terms.

:eyes:

Tom Turnipseed, a Columbia lawyer and self-described "reformed racist" who was Gov. George C. Wallace's national campaign director in 1968, said, "Democrats have got to reach across, and understanding is the only way."

"You can get those folks together on economic issues," he said, referring to the Southern whites Dr. Dean wants to court. "And on war and peace — they're the ones who fight and die," he said, referring to the war in Iraq. "They feel like they were very much misled."

and glad to see that you dig up a quote from a Wallace associate and PROUDLY post it? Yeah, THAT's the kind of fellow you should be quoting. Do a little more research on Turnipseed before you elect him for spokesman of southern dems. (Am ROTFLMAO that you would rather an asshole like turnipseed be your appointed spokesman for the south than a true progressive, indeed LIBERAL, like me.) You are blinded by your adoration of Dean to the point that you would put a Klan member up (you know, someone like the "reformed" Turnipseed) if he said something nice about "the doctor."

:eyes:

Why must you be so negative?

Essentially, you are saying, let's give up in the south?

Sorry, that's sounds much too defeatist. If we win over just a few voters, but still lose, that's progress for the next time.

So maybe the "confederate flag" remark wasn't perfect. But even if they are saying hell no now, there is a seed of doubt in their minds about the Republicans - that's a huge amount of press that said "What the hell have Republicans done for you?" And in these times, more than ever, the truth, if they ever get to the point of reflecting (which, who knows, could happen) is "Not much."

He was probably a registered Republican, so he can't vote in the Democratic primary. But it sure sounds like he would consider voting for Dean in the general election.

but they aren't neoconfederate propagandists like the guy in this article. They fly it for the same reason sports fans where their team decal. Having said that, black votes won't count for shit in the South if we don't get more whites to vote so a Dem can win your state, and it's electoral votes.

My first impression was, gosh, does he not understand what that flag represents?" said Waring S. Howe Jr., a Charleston lawyer and Democratic National Committee member. "Does he not have a single Southerner on his staff?"

State Senator John Matthews, a black Democrat from Orangeburg, said Dr. Dean's comment would cost him with African-Americans. "I think he only apologized after he checked the polls and with his supporters in this state," he said.

He also suggested that Dr. Dean was misguided for even bothering with those who fly the Confederate flag. "I don't think it'd bring anything to the table to go after those voters," Mr. Matthews said. "They will never support Howard Dean. Most of the people supporting the Confederate flag tend to be right-wing, anti-African-American, anti-Jewish, anti-everything. Believe me — I live here. I know."


Yes, this is going so very well for Dean. Not. I still can't believe the stupidity of trotting out that flag for any reason other than to condemn it.

but what do I know. I am only involved in Mississippi politics and live in the state.

:eyes:

I live in Columbia SC, home of both Maurice Bessinger (an irredeemable racist, who is fond of saying that blacks were better off under slavery) and Tom Turnipseed. Tom is a liberal but also a shamless self-promoter, and not the smartest man I've ever met. In the quote you offer I suspect he is spinning a bit.

Dean is right, we do need to reach out to poor whites. But they will not turn out for him in this election. It will take years if it's even possible to turn those folks around. Actually, I don't think it is possible to make these people share a party with black people.

If Dean were serious about poor Southerners he'd have a campaign staff in SC. He doesn't. He knows he has no chance here.

glad to see some southerners clarifying things for people who don't live here.

:toast:

Being up "north" in Virginia. So my perspective and being a younger person isnt much, but in my experience personally Ive seen more confederate flags in rural MD and PA than I have in Virginia.

Funny thing was, someone was saying the other day that Democrats should just rebel against the DLC and shut the south out of the party. That poster said, "Who was it that said a little rebellion was good sometimes?"

My response? "Thomas Jefferson, VIRGINIAN."

Thought another Virginian would appreciate that. :-)

heh yeah.

in theory. :^)

There are a lot of these "heritage, not hate" guys around. But when you back them into a corner they usually show their true colors. And those guys usually aren't poor. I crossed paths with some of them in college.

I had one try to argue that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery, but with economics. Seeing where he was going, I cut him off and said, "Hell yeah, economics, considering pretty much the WHOLE SOUTHERN ECONOMY was built on the backs of slaves...you're right!"

That ended the debate and drew quite a few laughs from my other students.

Had another one tell me, "The flag represents heritage." To which I responded, "Yeah, a heritage of slavery, Jim Crow, and denial of civil rights to blacks." Ended that discussion too.

A little education is a dangerous thing. When I teach evolution, the more "educated" students will try to talk "creation science." I just pull out my list from "Why people believe stupid things" and counter each well rehearsed talking point with well-rehearsed responses from the book. LOL :-)

I wrote a lot of letters to the editor (for years) to get the flag taken down from our statehouse dome. I'm pretty informed about this issue. The confederate flag, my heritage, my shame.

ago. I am sick of the subject. One day the flag and this subject in DU will fade away, let's hope :-)

hmm .. seems to me a good education includes debate rather than putting an end to it. If discussions (communication) is closed down, how do the students ever have the opportunity to change their minds and form their own new perceptions? They may be just repeating things they've heard, and aren't really sure about.

I could be way off, but my perception is you might be missing an occassional opportunity to actually educate on these topics, rather than countering with your views as debate stoppers.
:shrug:

...actually, first year grad students, one who has a photo of bush on his desk.

I exhaustively teach evolution and encourage open discussions in my classes. I answer all questions that come in, when they are truly questions that demonstrate the STUDENTS' inquisitiveness. But I don't open my floor to bible study--there are plenty of places on campus for that.

You would like my classes...they are very open in format. :-)

You are in a great position to truly influence the course of our nation's future. I don't have statistics, but my guess is that 'real' education goes a long way towards erradicating bigotry.


-bless you-

it's the flag of the enemy.

Why focus on only one flag of "heritage?" If you're going to fly one heritage flag, FLY THEM ALL! hehe!

Let's see.. the flags of England, Spain, and France all flew over much of the South at various points during history. Why do we not see these guys with French flag bumper stickers on the backs of their trucks? Hmm?

Personal disclosure.. I went to the University of Mississippi from 1996 to 2000. There were tons of men there with Rebel Flags on their trucks. And yes, I did notice a correlation between their personal hatred and the displaying of the flag.

it's the Mississippi Gulf Coast.




All the flags you mentioned are on flagpoles on monument that divides Biloxi from Gulfport...has stirred up quite a controversy and numerous protests calling for removal of the confederate flag.
The guy in the photo below would disagree that confederate flag wavers should be in his party.



Let me add that the man on the van is protesting the confederate flag being placed back on one of the poles. There were HUGE protests there for weeks.

This photo came from the South Louisiana Council of Conservative Citizens--you want to see how some of these guys are? Go read their webpage. will turn your stomach. http://slccc.tripod.com/index2.htm

Even if it doesn't pay off with a win now, don't make the overtures?

That makes no sense.

I'm in Columbia, too and know at least two other DUers here. We should have a DU gathering since sometimes it feels so lonely in this GOP state especially for this transplant (SC = husband's home).

The February 3 South Carolina primary is just 90 days away. This weekend supporters from South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia and Alabama will be canvassing across the state, spreading the message of this people-powered campaign. If you're in South Carolina or anywhere in the Southeast, come out and Canvass for Carolina.

In other SC news, Dean For America has hired a deputy state director and is in the process of hiring a director. Shortly we will open offices in Columbia and Charleston.

South Carolinians can also pledge to vote for Howard Dean in the primary, sign up for local events at the Dean Directory, and go to tonight's Meetup in Anderson, Charleston, Columbia, Florence, Greenville, Greenwood, Myrtle Beach, or Sumter.

Posted by Mark Sundeen at 06:27 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002140.html

Dean brings campaign back to South Carolina
CHARLESTON, S.C. - Vermont Gov. Howard Dean brought his surging presidential campaign back to South Carolina after months away on Friday, telling a crowd of mostly students at the College of Charleston they have a chance to take back America.
…
Throughout the crowd were Generation Dean signs and the visit was a stop on a tour that will take Dean to seven college campuses around the country in four days. Dean didn't mention his Democratic opponents, but took aim at George Bush.

"South Carolinians have voted Republican for 30 years," said Dean, who appeared on stage with no jacket and blue short-sleeve shirt. "Tell me what you have to show for it?"

"Nothing! Nothing!" several in the crowd shouted back.

"The Legislature cut $73 million out of the public school system. Jobs gone to other countries especially in textiles. People haven't had raises in five years because their health insurance premiums took their raise in pay," Dean said.

"If you're satisfied with that, you ought to vote for George Bush," he said. "But maybe you ought to vote Democratic again. Because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's when we make social progress."
http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/local/6928029.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=53554

by saying this. Thanks for the info!

Charleston and Columbia are 2, I forget the third...

I live here in SC, too. And totally agree with you. If Dean has that bastard Bessinger in his camp, he can forget the black vote in SC. While I understand that he was trying to convey the need to expand the Party's reach, his way of saying it was off base. As a black person, I'm really not offended. That damn flag ain't going away and there are other more important issues to focus on.

But Bessinger's statement is hollow; don't be fooled by that sniveling snake. He would love to have Dean be the Dem nominee knowing full well that he will vote for Bush. The underground murmurs I hear are that some of Dean's financial support comes from regressive repug racists (sorry for the redundancy but I love the alliteration)who are helping the Dean campaign during the primary season so they can set him up for a fall in the general election. Dean doesn't have a campaign office in SC and will not win here or elsewhere in the south.

That's why we need Clark. He will peel off southern and military votes handily.

I'm not from Carolina, heh. NYC girl here.

I'm bi-racial, myself. The thing that astounded me about the flag thing was that any politician would think they could use it, outside of being on the record as totally opposed to it, without getting into big trouble. I don't care how he meant the remark, there are just some places you don't want to go!

This will be beat to death, now. Right-wing types will keep bringing it up and acting like they love Dean just to piss us off. Argghh! Rove can't wait for Dean.

I've heard rumors that he is giving SC a total pass, myself. Who knows?

I think Clark will rock in the south, too! :)

all because of one statement he apologized for? DEAN MEANT WELL. He always follows up that point with wanting there to be racial unity.

And here is the big point - HE IS NOT A RACIST - and therefore he can get that message across to black voters, because it is the TRUTH. I sincerely doubt people would prefer Bush the white supremacist over a guy who just puts his foot in his mouth sometimes, but really means well.

Dean has gotten the attention of potential white swing voters with this remark, because his remark got a lot of press. Foot in the mouth aside, what he said - and what they heard - is "What has Bush done for you?" And "Look at us - we can do more."

Maybe they won't listen this time around, but we got their attention. Maybe a few will be swayed. This looks to be a squeaker of an election,a nd every vote counts. I don't get the defeatist "Why try?" attitude about the south.

But some might stay home on election day and it could very well cost him in the primaries.

In what will be a close race, why risk pissing of a substantial part of the democratic base, one you need to win? On the off chance some confederate flag waving white southerner is suddenly going to change his vote from Bush to a Yankee liberal?

Guy seems nuts to me.

TDS ran a segment about his racist barbeque sauce. Quite funny. Bessinger is a confederate anachronism. It's amazing.

Anyone who insists on having that damn flag on their bbq sauce at the expense of being able to sell to area stores, well, that's obsession. I do think he, in particular, could potentially vote for Dean because of the flag comment alone, but I somehow doubt he's representative of the confederate flag decal crowd...

NT

Phelps hates everyone.

Guy" while inside they may be very different. Not saying this is true about Bessinger, but I'd worry more about Tommy Condon(a Charleston Patrician) who's a real right winger politician who's looking to run for Hollings Senate seat than I would worry about what Bessinger says.

NT

This is how THE MEDIA works! This story means nothing. Not a damn thing. This is the media taking the issue in stupid directions as a means of not talking about the REAL issue.

What a waste!

Of Dean...


I read the entire piece in the paper this morning and it wasn't intended to be flattering...


Furthermore anybody who thinks Bessinger's endorsement of Dean was sincere has a tin ear or is it tin eye in this case...

the article was positive or negative. The article is reactionary of the controversy instead of being focused on the issue. Why HAVE people in the south voted against their best interests, and how will ANY D nominee rectify that?

That's all I'm saying. You're right in your post. I just can't figure out why anyone cares what one dude who isn't going to vote for Dean anyway thinks. He probably thought that about Dean since before the controversy. He probably got it from Rush.

We need to ignore this kind of press.

He hasn't talked to his own brother because he makes a competing barbecue sauce and supermarkets carry it cuz it tastes good and he doesn't fly the Confederate flag....

ROTFLMFAO....

the Charleston Area. They have been at this for awhile!

NT

The brother without the flags restaurants have gone "down hill" last time I was there the food was awful.

The good brother's store gets boycotted...

I guess if Cain and Abel opened up competing barbecue restaurants folks would boycott Abel's restaurant....

We should encourage the good brother to improve his food and encourage people to eat there....


Next time I'm in Charlseton I'm eating at the good brother's place and I'm not over fond of barbecue...

Sauce or eaten at his restaurant since the "Flag" incident. But, his non-flag waving brother's restaurant on James Island has gone down in the quality of the food served and so I won't eat there again,either.

Sorry, I don't eat at place with poor quality food, in protest or non-protest!
:D

Friends and family from SC used to mail us bottles for Christmas every now and again. His business is sort of a fundraiser for local segregationalist culture. I won't buy it because I wouldn't give him my money.

Maybe Mr. Bessenger could make barbecue sauces with the different candidates on the bottles and see which does best..

I was at the Omni Hotel in Charleston on business the day after Election 92....


I saw two African American bell hops on thier sixties discussing the USA Today front page declaring Clinton's victory... One turned to the other and said "he (Clinton) kicked his (Bush's) ass".

You gotta pay the price for your ideals I guess. What an idiot.

It's like watching a cat toy with a mouse just before he gobbles him up.

to see you curb your vitriol, even if for a day.

I think Turnipseed's (what a name!) comment is very revealing in that Dean's comments got him noticed in SC and that the reaction may have better consequences for Dean in getting votes than what some DU'ers have thought.
----------------------------


"Tom Turnipseed, a Columbia lawyer and self-described "reformed racist" who was Gov. George C. Wallace's national
campaign director in 1968, said, "Democrats have got to reach across, and understanding is the only way."

"You can get those folks together on economic issues," he said, referring to the Southern whites Dr. Dean wants to court. "And
on war and peace — they're the ones who fight and die," he said, referring to the war in Iraq. "They feel like they were very
much misled."

-----------------

you really should have done some reasearch into that whackjob. But thanks for the laugh

His Restaurant with a pick axe?

My bad....


That was Lester Maddox....


Maybe we can have a seance and see what Lester has to say about this.....

http://www.mauricesbbq.com/

Hey, isn't he who we were trying to reach? ;)

LOL's Thanks......although most DU'ers won't see the humor in our Eccentric Southerners....but it's a not so subtle understanding that folks need to come to just to understand what candidates are dealing with when they try to win back the South!...Thanks!

I thought we were trying to get attract southereners who vote R against their self interest....


Maurice is prolly using his tax cuts to open more rib joints.....


I think it would be funny to go into one of his restaurants with a "By Any Means Necessary" tshirt...

I'd like to point out that an endorsement, of any sort, by Tom Turnipseed is no coup. Turnipseed is very unpopular with whites in SC. He is seen as the black man's lawyer and something of an ambulance chaser. And as a liberal activist, he is seen as a radical leftist nutjob ... that should probably be strung up. He basically is SC's voice of the far left. This is not a good thing in SC. He may have some clout with black voters, but blacks won't vote for Dean (polling has demonstrated this to be so).

Clark does poll well with blacks, and polls much better with white Southerners than Dean.

On edit: As I mentioned last night Turnipseed is spinning big time in his statement. I assure you, poor whites in SC are nothing if not supportive of Bushco, and certainly do not feel betrayed by them.

But, then SC is such a mix up of factions and cronyism and interests....it's hard to sort it all out. They need someone to rally round to bring all these folks together. However, Real Estate & Tourism.....always rule in SC.

:crazy: I take your point. But, he was quoted in NYT's and this is what this article was about......that's why I posted it. I have to figure that the reporter was looking for "fair and balanced." HA! LOL's.......NYT's....depends on the reporter!

I'm far left. Turnipseed's okay by me.

Just trying to make the point that I don't think poor whites can be won by Dean. I pray (not literally) that we can bring those folks home one day, but it won't be soon, I'm afraid.

Nothin' personal, KoKo.

n/t