Kucinich or Dean, who should I vote for?

http://soli.inav.net/~njohnson/kucinich/dkorhd.html

Interesting site.

On the issues it presents:

Abortion: Kucinich is the winner here.

Balanced budget: I agree with both candidates, but America's infrastructure (it's people!) should have some priority. I must go with Kucinich on this one. Also, the site claims Dean is "to the right" of Bush. WTF does this mean, Dean will waste hundreds of billions of dollars, too?! This is either poorly written or that we mustn't elect Dean!

Campaign finance: We do need reform, but we need specifics on how to do it. And spending hundreds of millions of dollars per candidate who wants a job that pays only $400,000 per year is ASININE. Kucinich's bit is too vague and Dean won't open his mouth on the issue, so I don't trust him here.

Death penalty: Gotta go with Dean on this one. There are circumstances where it must be used, unfortunate as it is. But we don't have cures for all crimes and we don't want to risk jailbreak for the vermin to go out and slaughter more. And we need a very damn accurate judicial system as well so nobody innocent goes to the electric chair.

Defense: Gotta go with Kucinich. Our military is already overextended across the globe, with the draft about to make a re-eappearance (may more of the wealthy be sent out because they get the most from our country and as such need to pay the most back into it...) Dean wants to increase military capabilities? On the other hand, Kucinich has to play his hand very carefully and in a way that the everybody will understand and agree with. On a glib level, his ideas sound terrifying. He MUST elaborate eloquantly here or else he's toast and Bush WOULD win in a legitimate election. People want their protection, even though other countries do it better. Americans are a clouded people, the reaction to 9/11 proves that and Bush too full advantage of American sheepishness.

Illegal drugs: Go away Dean, you insensitive idiot. Drugs are not the problem. Education and control is. Making it illegal and throwing more people in an already overcrowded prison system is stupid and will cost taxpayers more in the long run. And what the hell is wrong with medical marijuana when it's under control and supervised by supposedly qualified people? GO KUCINICH!!! GO AWAY DEAN!!!

Education: No comment, Dean? I'm supposed to vote for you when you won't comment?! Have you commented since this web page was made? I LOVE Kucinich's option, he knows how to make a solid, reliable infrastructure. Kucinich is proving to be, by far, the more worthy American who gives a frick.

Energy/environment: Both appear on equal grounding, but what's been said of Dean so far - sorry, can't trust him. He needs to prove himself.

Family farms: No comment, Dean? Give it up Dean, you support NAFTA so I know you're in bed masturbating corporate america. Kucinich is doing the RIGHT thing here. Corporate conglomerates (big business) is what's destroying this country, or hadn't you noticed?

Gun control: Kucinich. European countries have far more control than the US on guns and, for some odd reason, they donb't have nearly as much gun related crime as we do. I wonder why... and I wonder why people want their 2nd amendment (which speaks of a militia, not an individual so the repukes and such have warped this issue out of reality!)

Health care: Fuck off, Dean. 'nuff said. The comparison speaks for itself.

Iraq: Kucinich once again. Would Dean have done anything to make Iraq a success? I dunno. Toppling a regime is a difficult thing to do, even if you can anticipate what the citizens will do after you destroy their leadership, which wasn't as all pervasive as they claim...

Labor: Kucinich. Dean, once again, has no comment. I wonder why... Corporate $ perhaps?

Patriot act: Depends on how Dean modifies it, though what has the Patriot Act done to stop terrorism? Nothing, since Bush wants a second Act to become law. x(

Sexual orientation: Kucinich. Full equality is just that. Anything less is unconstitutional, pure and simple. Screw the folks who'll relegate ANY American as second-class. My vitriol towards such anti-american bastards has little limit. You dig?

Taxation: How important is this estate tax? Otherwise both are spot-on in their assessment. America cannot afford these asinine tax cuts regardless.

Trade: Gee, Dean supports NAFTA. It makes me laugh when people say this guy isn't for corporate interests. :eyes:

Treaties: Kucinich is standing on his views. Dean appears to be wishy-washy. That's a good quality for a leader... not.

It's the infrastructure, stupid. Infrastructure meaning the people. Supporting corporate interests will increasingly harm America and its people. With more jobs going overseas, this is only the beginning. Globalization will help the big American corporations (many of which seem to merge by the day...) remain in business to continue their exploitation and pursuit of greed, but it will only make WE, THE PEOPLE endure with multiple low paying jobs as all the good ones are gone off to some other country where there are few human rights laws and where the people can be exploited. And if the rate of corporate merging continues, there will be no free enterprise anymore. Just a handful of gigantic corporations making all the wealth and having all the power. Just wait until they get the means to eliminate the minimum wage... People won't be able to live with 3 jobs anymore... That's not america. That's fascism. Is that what you want? x(

It's on a PRO Kucinich site. It gets the facts ALL wrong, probably because it hasn't been updated. Your subject line is misleading. This is a pretty shallow attempt at using a facade of objectivity to bash another candidate.

Go with your heart in the primary. Go with your head in the general.

By the way, what state do you live in? Will your primary vote count for anything? Mine won't.

Estate tax is very important, by the way.

Just watch how much money will transfer hands through un-taxed counduits as the estate tax decreases. Rich people are going to leave a lot of money by will which they might have transfered in other ways which would have been taxed. Tax revenues are going to tank.

You already know that Dean wants to repeal ALL of Bush's 2001 and 2003 tax cuts. Bush's estate tax cuts were in the first of those bills.

making decisions. He's got some of them wrong.

Dean was on the Planned Parenthood board. He has always been pro-choice.

Kucinich was anti-choice until he ran for president.

He stopped voting on abortion bills over a year ago. He was drafted and started campaigning earlier this year.

Until last year the man had a near-perfect anti-abortion voting record, according to the National Right-to-Life Committee.

He even voted against funding of International Planned Parenthood. As far as I'm concerned, that means Kucinich has the blood of dead women on his hands.

I'm real happy he got enlightened, but I don't trust him on this issue. If he's such an all-fired pure progressive, how come he didn't notice that WOMEN ARE HUMAN BEINGS until last year? And also, if he could do a 180 degree flop in one direction, what's to prevent him from flopping back the other direction?

Look up his last vote, ok?

And 'the blood of dead women on his hands'? :eyes: Bit of demagoguing there?

I can't really understand single issue voters, but since I've seen you trashing his record with no regard whatsoever to facts I don't think I'd be spending my time effectively by attempting to have a serious dialogue with you.

However I will say this: eventually people will have to recognize that FETUSES ARE HUMAN BEINGS, TOO.

Nothing is to prevent him from flopping just as nothing is preventing your chosen candidate from flopping. They're humans.

I'm confident he is the best candidate.

It's just not the sort of thing you can switch and expect people to trust your postion. It's analagous to Clark voting for Reagan, Nixon, Bush (?). It's just not OK for someone running for president. Stability is an important characteristic for the person that runs the county. No chameleons for me, please.

Everyone has their breaking point... how much they can tolerate. For me, it was Dean's support of continuing to allow the Pentagon to pad their slush funds and 'lose track' of a trillion plus dollars.

Oh and also his right wing stance on deregulation, which he changed. I guess that flip flop actually more closely matches the situation you describe as the reason you can't support Kucinich.

but I understand why you might like Kucinich, if you feel this way.

Dean has a very strong record on energy efficiency and renewable energy programs. He did experiment with deregulation to allow more flexibility in buying and selling energy, but backed off this effort. Vermont has one of the most progressive energy programs in the country. Dean has been very involved in that. I think you will find this out if you do a search.

But he is really from the same class as GW. I don't really think he will help us middle and lower class people much.

Kucinich Selected as One of Ten Worst Mayors in History

The survey was conducted over a five-month period in 1993 and consists of the answers of 69 experts in municipal government ranging from biographers, social scientists and urban historians as well as others. The results of the tabulation show that the experts chose Dennis Kucinich, who served as Cleveland's mayor from 1977 to 1979, as the seventh worst mayor in the period studied, 1820 to 1993. On the best mayor list, Cleveland's Tom L. Johnson (1901 to 1909) was chosen as the second best mayor.

An excerpt follows:

Only thirty-one years old when elected, Cleveland's "boy mayor" had failings that were not the sins of venality or graft for personal gain, but rather matters of style, temperament, and bad judgment in office. Kucinich earned seventh place the hard way: by his abrasive, intemperate, and chaotic administration. He barely survived a recall vote just ten months in office, then disappeared for five weeks, reportedly recuperating from an ulcer. When he got back into the political fray, his demagogic rhetoric and slash-and-burn political style got him into serious trouble when he stubbornly refused to compromise and led Cleveland into financial default in late 1978 - the first major city to default since the Great Depression. That led also to Kucinich's defeat and exit from executive office. Out of office, he dabbled in a Hollywoodesque spirit world and once believed that he had met Shirley MacLaine in a previous life, seemingly confirming his critics' charges that he was a "nutcake." After that, he experienced downward mobility, losing races for several other offices and finally ending up with a council seat; but more recently, he climbed back up to a seat in Congress. Bad judgment, demagoguery, and default also spelled political failure in the eyes of twenty-five of our experts, who ranked Dennis, whom the press called "Dennis the Menace", as seventh-worst.

Some information to consider below.

Dennis Kucinich and Howard Dean a comparison via:

http://dennisthemenace.blogspot.com/ *be sure to check out the Dean/Kucinich comparison here.

http://www.aflcio.org/aboutaflcio/ns01132003.cfm

http://www.aflcio.org/mediacenter/prsptm/pr01082003.cfm

He went with his convictions and paid the price and he came back. That show he is resilient. He is really the best candidate, IMO.

After he was smeared by the big money boys and was ridden out of town, the city council awarded him for saving the peopole of Cleveland well over a hundred million dollars.

Since then they've elected him again, and again, and again, and again, and again. :)

If we can afford to spend $566 Billion (budget appropriation plus war costs) on defense a year, then we can afford a single-payer health system.

What really happened: After being run out of the mayor's office in 1980 because he had pissed off everyone in Cleveland (the power company flap was only a small part of the story), Kucinich couldn't get himself elected to anything for fifteen entire years, although he kept running for offices. He never was re-elected to an office in the city of Cleveland, but finally in 1994 he captured a seat in the Ohio state Senate. Then two years later he won election to the U.S. House of Representatives.

Highly recommended: Cleveland magazine has an online archive of articles on Kucinich going back to 1972. Highly illuminating stuff.

http://www.clevelandmagazine.com/editorial/thismonth_features.asp?docid=361

See also the bio of Kucinich that appeared in Time magazine:

http://www.time.com/time/election2004/article/0,18471,524691,00.html

Enough said

The fact remains that the writer who thought Kucinich was re-elected many times in Cleveland was considerably mistaken. The fact is that is tenure as mayor of Cleveland was a flaming disaster, and not because of the power plant crisis. He was mayor for two years, after which Cleveland wouldn't elect him to be dogcatcher.

http://www.clevelandmagazine.com/editorial/thismonth_features.asp?docid=361

I think it shows resilience. It's much better than having a warmongering pres.

... it really ought to give you pause. It may be that he's a marvelous man today and has outgrown all the negative qualities that got him booted out of the mayor's office in Cleveland in 1980, which was a long time ago. I don't know him personally, so I can't say. But I get an impression that some people just plain worship the ground Dennis walks on and won't even look at negatives about him, and this is worrisome.

Eyes open. Always.

Always a but. I don't worship the ground he walks on but he has great ideas and stances on the issues. And I am not a one-issue voter. And he's not some rich schmuk looking to boost his ego by running for pres.

he's a POOR schmuk looking to boost his ego by running for pres. But that's me. IMO he's not qualified to be president. Anybody can have ideas -- I have lots of 'em, and mine are even better -- but that doesn't mean he can administrate his way out of a paper bag. (Even with all my good ideas, I wouldn't vote for me, either.)

If you agree with his ideas and want to support him that's fine by me, but be HONEST. Don't pretend he was not an abject failure as mayor of Cleveland, because he was. Don't pretend he got re-elected umpteen times in Cleveland, because he wasn't. Facts are facts.

That's makes you a one -issue voter and that's your right. The rich have had plenty of time to fix the country and they have not. Time for a change.

NOT just against his stance on abortion. If you look at the post to which you replied, that should be clear.

meant to throw off the scent of the real issues.

As I've said several times already, if you want to support Kucnich that's fine by me. Go right ahead. I'm not going to try to talk you out of it. You do what you think is right.

By the same token, I will NOT be supporting Kucinich, for a lot of reasons. He's pretty much at the bottom of my list, along with Joe Lieberman. I'll vote for him if he's the nominee, but that's not gonna happen.

Now, can you just say, "OK," and walk away? Or do you have to flame me because I don't agree with you?

Kucnich supporters cannot fathom that some people really don't like Dennis Kucnich.

Although I agree with him on a lot of points, I think his policy ideas are simplistic and impractical, his personal history is not exactly glorious, and it alarms me that his "supporters" act like brainless cult followers. Frankly, I have qualms about his emotional/psychological makeup, although without knowing him personally I can't be sure I'm right. But my guts tell me he's a whack job.

so expect a counter.

You said something that was inaccurate, and I corrected you. I didn't mean for my message to be an "attack," and if it seemed so I apologize.

No surprise here!

The poster has already made up it's mind. End of story.

It seems it's been opened now to become a 'bash Kucinich or Dean' thread.

but send your money to Dean if you want to back the winner.

:)

Here's one example -- Education: Dean - No comment as of June 25? Then explain Dean's statement from June 10 on No Child Left Behind:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6147

Or his more general issues piece on education.
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_record_education

Please explain to my why Kucinich, and the other candidates in Congress, voted FOR No Child Left Behind while Dean opposed it. Dean's foresight explains his endorsement by the Cal State Teacher's Assn.

Please do some objective research instead of linking to wildly incorrect information.

I didn't read the trash very closely once I saw how innacurate it was.

Dennis is not what he appears.

http://dennisthemenace.blogspot.com

Which is why he is polling at 1%

It was clearly poorly put together and not well researched, and I agree it was a bad idea to use it, there are better comparisons out there.

But why link to a blog DEDICATED to bashing Kucinich?

Why is there a blog dedicated to doing that?

Why is there a website set up to ridicule Kucinich?

Are there any sites or blogs that are solely dedicating to bashing or ridiculing Dean?

I find the information at the dennisblog concerning. I would think Kucinich supporters would want to know and refute if it's innaccurate?

Peace

It is a site that gets his positions wrong, but it doesn't distort articles to try to lie to people.

They are both bad, but I think the one you linked to is worse, becuase while the one linked by the author of this thread is obviously inaccurate, it at least LOOKS inaccurate. You can tell just by looking at it that it's not really reliable. No links, reference, etc.

However, the one YOU linked to, DOES give the appearance of being legitimate, seeming to reference articles that back up the bloggers view.

I read down through much of it before happening on a couple of articles that I was familiar with, so I knew the guy was skewing the facts to make his case.

Here's one example:

One linked article is Democratic Leaders Abdicate on War Policy, by Marie Cocco.

Here are the two excerpts shown by the blogger to 'make their case':

"Kucinich is no political powerhouse. He is the type of quirky congressman who tends to be loved at home but commands little notice in Washington. His official Web site notes proudly that he is "one of the few vegans in Congress." Nonetheless, it provides a helpful link to The Sausage Shoppe in Cleveland (Current special: 8 brats, 8 buns, 8 bucks).

The nation came to know Kucinich as the "boy mayor" of Cleveland, but forgot his name after he was forced from office after one controversial term.

Few listened then, or hear Kucinich now. He creates annoying static, best tuned out. "


I know Marie hasn't bashed Kucinich in the past, but I hadn't seen this article, so I checked it out.

Here are a few more paragraphs, just to show how badly this blogger is distorting facts:

"Kucinich sensed early the cynical turn this war debate would take. In March, when Bush declared that "politics ought to stay out of fighting a war," Kucinich begged to differ.

"Before we celebrate an imperial presidency," he said in a floor speech, "let it be said that the lack of free and open political process, the lack of free and open political debate, and the lack of free and open political dissent can be fatal in a democracy."

Of course, Kucinich might gain a respectful ear if he reminded fellow politicians that he is a liberal who wins in ethnic, Reagan-Democrat neighborhoods; a congressman from a coveted swing district in a coveted swing state. That is an argument too crass for him. But not for the rest of them."


Clearly, this site is solely dedicated to smearing Kucinich and disseminating disinformation about him. There is at least one other site like this, and that one is run by a GOP president of his town's Republican club.


I ask you again, are there any sites DEDICATED to bashing Dean?

as Kucinich does to Dean.

However, here's a bash Dean site for your enjoyment. ;)

http://www.sover.net/~auc/gov.htm

http://www.wafflepoweredhoward.com/ is an interesting look at the biggest problem I have with Dean. Kucinich is a catholic, but his views on a woman's right to choose seem to have evolved. And that's the only flip flop anyone can point to with regard to DK.

I wonder if THAT site is run by a GOPper, as is the bash-Kucinich site not mentioned in this thread. :(

That's strange. Seems pretty tame, by comparison, still.

Most of that site doesn't even come close to addressing the issues. All it does is mock Dennis.

At least Waffle Powered Howard tries to talk about some facts, even if they are inaccurate or slanted.

He seems to have done a sudden 180 degree flop, from being adamantly anti-choice to (I am told) pro-choice overnight. No normal person "evolves" so far, so fast. What's weirder is that he and his followers get really pissed if one even brings this up, like no one is supposed to notice.

He didnt change overnight and while his past choice record wasnt something to be proud of, he didnt get all 100s from Right to Life and 0's from like NARAL. I dont like this aspect of his past views. He didnt change over night, and look I am not angry or nothing. I agree on this issue, Dean is better.

He has a shabby record, but I trust him in his stance on abortion.

I am sorry this thread got the way it got. sigh.

It's being discussed on another DU thread, in editorials

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=20149

Until last year boy had a 90 percent rating from the National Right to Life Committee. It would have been 100 percent except that he supported the Shays-Meehan campaign finance bill.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-carney110102.asp

In the Ohio state Senate, Kucinich voted to ban partial-birth abortions. In 1996, while running for U.S. House, the former "boy-mayor" of Cleveland said, "I believe that life begins at conception." When Kucinich was coming to Washington, the Center for Reproductive Law and Policy counted the former mayor as one of a handful of "anti-choice" Democratic newcomers. ...

... This left-wing congressmen voted with the National Right to Life Committee on every single abortion vote in his first two years. That was more pro-life than three Ohio Republicans that year. The votes included sticking up for a ban on partial-birth abortion and voting to thwart President Clinton's plan to give foreign aid to overseas agencies that perform and counsel abortion.

For the next two years, the story was the same. Kucinich voted again to ban partial-birth abortion, block aid to International Planned Parenthood, and prevent taxpayer dollars from funding abortions in federal prisons. His score in the 106th Congress with the National Right to Life Committee was 95 percent — again, only voting against them on Shays-Meehan.

The 10th district Democrat even towed the pro-life line during the first year of the Bush administration. In April, Kucinich supported the "Unborn Victims of Violence Act," which criminalized harming a fetus in a crime, and he opposed the Democratic substitute that would have defused the fetus-is-a-life parts of the bill.

I do NOT forgive voting against aid to international Planned Parenthood and foreign aid to overseas agencies. This amounts to having the blood of dead women on his hands.

Like Jobs, corporate crime and Bush's complicity in them, The war in Iraq, Deficit spending, unfair free trade.

Let's not let this election get bogged down on wedge issues, shall we?

Bottom line, one's stance on abortion reveals a lot about one's values and how one views women. A person who claims to be "progressive," who says he's out to improve the lives of common people, but then turns around and votes to deny women legal access to abortion, is a fraud.

There have been all manner of sociological studies done on men with anti-choice beliefs, and they tend to have very paternalistic, authoritarian attitudes about women.

Men do not "get over" paternalistic, authoritarian attitudes about women overnight. One suspects those attitudes are still rattling around inside Dennis's head, and he's hiding 'em real well.

Can we trust a person like this to choose Supreme Court justices? NO!

i'm all for accurate comparisons, but when a list starts off by saying Abortion: Kucinich is the winner here, it is clear just how biased the source is. Dean served on the board of Planned Parenthood, has spoken out vociferously against Bush on late-term abortions, and, oh yeah, is a doctor. Kucinich's voting record on abortion changed only recently.

yeah, kucinich is the clear winner on this one. uh huh

I don't even have to go to the site.

Vote for Dennis Kucinich.

And go help buy one of these great billboards in Iowa:

http://www.kintera.org/TR.asp?ID=M6302803117668213778955&iEvent=33251

The slogan says it all:

Fear Ends. Hope Begins. Kucinich For President, 2004.

I almost stopped reading right there. Dennis Kucinich has been pro-choice and wasn't well liked by Planned Parenthood and NARAL, for example.

He switched his position, which is great, but in no way can you get "Kucinich is the winner" out of that one, in my opinion. Unless you're anti-abortion.

Re: Campaign finance, Dean was one of the candidates who signed the Democracy 21 pledge to clean up the system once elected. You can read about that pledge at Dean for America. Sharpton and Gephardt did not sign, and Edwards did not sign (since he does not sign any pledges) but agreed with the principles. Both Kucinich and Dean are raising their campaign funds through small contributions -- they're virtually tied for having the smallest average contribution size -- and both do not accept PAC funds. Kerry, Edwards, Clark, and some others have much larger average contribution sizes. Dean, however, has raised enormous amounts of money this way and figured out how to bypass the big donor/influence mechanism that normally finances campaigns. Kucinich has not been so successful at doing that.

Re: Illegal drugs, Kucinich is fine, but so's Dean, and it might actually get done with Dean. Dean wants the FDA to spend one year after he's elected reviewing medical marijuana. If the FDA approves, that's the science we need, and he'll proceed with allowing doctors to prescribe medical marijuana to their patients. Kucinich's viewpoint is fine, but it'll never get past Congress. (In fact, Dennis has been one of the least successful Congressmen in the House. In his entire term of service, he's had a grand total of one bill passed: a bill which provides access to a government video program to the Ukranian Museum. Yes, I know he's in the minority, but he's not working well with the hand dealt to him, and that concerns me.)

Re: Death penalty, Dean favors very narrow use of the ultimate penalty and reforms to make sure it isn't abused.

Re: Defense, Dean wants level funding. He would reallocate priorities, though. Again, Kucinich can talk all he wants about slashing the Department of Defense and instituting the Department of Peace, but it won't get through Congress and, at least the former, is not the right public policy when America does indeed have threats and global responsibilities. Heck, we can't even seem to find money to keep combat hazard pay in place, and our force strength is stretched way too thin. Senator Durbin is also investigating why that Chinook helicopter called up from the Reserves may not have had the same level of defensive equipment as regular Army equipment. We have misplaced priorities in the defense budget, but funding is needed in certain areas.

Re: Education, what are you talking about? There's plenty of information on Dean's web site about this issue. Two teachers unions have endorsed Dean: the California Teachers Association and the Vermont Teachers Association. No teachers unions have endorsed Kucinich. By the way, Vermont is middle of the country in income ranking but outranks much of the rest of the country in student performance.

Re: Energy/environment, I'm not sure there's enough to go on yet to make a distinction between the two candidates. Kucinich has good environmental ratings in Congress (from what I've heard), and Dean has a good land preservation record in Vermont (to combat sprawl). Dean also opposes new nuclear plants until the waste problem is solved -- something I happen to disagree with him on but which some environmentalists like. He has also come out against the "grandfather" exceptions and recent EPA changes to New Source Review. And Vermont is one of the few states that joined in the stricter auto emissions standards (along with some other northeastern states and California), even though Vermont doesn't have automobile pollution problems like smog-filled cities. Dean also favors raising SUV fuel consumption standards to the identical standards for cars.

Re: Family farms, again, check Dean's web site. What has NAFTA got to do with family farms? If you're arguing that agricultural products from Mexico impact family farms, that's a stretch. It works both ways. A huge amount of U.S. farm output goes to Canada, for example, including products from family farms. Sorry, we disagree on this one profoundly. Read what the Republicans did with Smoot-Hawley in 1930 to see how this country dug itself deeper into the Great Depression under Herbert Hoover. Free trade is exactly what we should be trying to get, with a few basic rules to assure that we're not destroying environment or putting workers into sweatshops in the process.

Re: Gun control, take a look at Canada. Awash in guns, virtually no crime. This gun control liberal is reluctantly forced to conclude that gun control may not be the answer.

Re: Health care, huh? Kucinich wants a Canadian-style nationalized healthcare system. A Democratic Congress couldn't get the Clinton Plan (which fell far short of this) passed, so what's the point in debating an issue position that won't ever happen? Under President Kucinich we'll have exactly the same crappy healthcare system we have right now. Under President Dean we'll get progress. And since we're talking about people dying here, I'd much rather have progress than ideology.

Re: Iraq, huh? Kucinich's and Dean's positions were identical on this one through the run-up. Now they are different, though. Dean still believes there's a way to internationalize this disaster (although time is running out), on the theory that "we broke it, we bought it." Kucinich just wants to run home and leave Iraqis to shoot each other for a long time.

Re: Labor, again, huh? Dean looks set to receive the endorsements of over 3.6 million members of various labor unions. Kucinich is less than 0.1 million.

Re: Patriot Act, Both Kucinich and Dean want to substantially modify it. (Kucinich has said, in the past, he just wants to repeal the whole thing, but from what I can tell in the legislation he introduced in Congress he wants to mend it.)

Re: Sexual orientation, great, but why do so many more GLBT Americans support Howard Dean? And why hasn't Dennis gotten anything done to help the GLBT community since his mayoral days? There's only one state in the country where GLBT have full civil rights: Vermont. (California is almost there.)

Re: Taxation, both very similar, agreed.

Re: Trade, yes, of course, Dean supports NAFTA and free trade, with safeguards. Read your history books. Free trade is first and foremost for consumer interests, by the way, i.e. individuals. Why should government tax me for buying French wine, Canadian paper, Mexican blankets or automobiles, English cheese, or Italian vinegar? And where do you think my payments for those products goes? Usually it goes right back into exports from the United States of Hollywood movies, software, countless agricultural products, etc.

Ask farmers whether they think we ought to trade with Cuba or not. Apparently Kucinich thinks it's OK to have exceptions for countries with awful human rights records (e.g. Cuba) and not OK to trade with second world countries that are trying to get ahead (e.g. Mexico). Why some "progressives" are against free trade is just completely beyond me. Didn't anyone read what the Republicans did in 1930 to this country?

Re: Treaties, you'll have to be more specific. Dennis Kucinich and Bush seem to think that presidents have the power to unilaterally abrogate treaties. Dean thinks Congress ought to have a role in that, since they pass the treaties in the first place.

Re: corporate interests, sure, that's a threat. But the biggest threat is the influence of corporate interests over the political process, and that's addressed by having a quarter million people (and growing fast) each inspired to give 77 bucks to a presidential candidate (Dean). It's not to rail against free trade -- lots of corporations hate free trade. (Ask USX what they think.)

Yes, we have threats but $600 billion is a bit much, don't you think?

That's why our defense budget is about $400 billion, isn't it? :-)

Which brings the total this year to $566.5 billion.

Dean said he would have voted against the $87 billion supplemental, and he would not have invaded Iraq.

Well yes it does but what matters who is better is the ideas on labor, what are Dean's ideas for labor.
Look at Kucinich's ideas for labor such as repealing Taft-Hartley.

:wtf:

The man opposed up until a short while ago, when he started thinking about running for running president. I would critique the rest of that list, but there really is no point - It's from a Kucninich supporters's site, so there is no hope of any kind of objectivity.

Nice misleading topic, by the way.

he is a real liberal with soilid values and youll know he will do what he says he will. Dean is centrist and has high flipflop-ability. However Kuchinich will not be able to beat Bush in the GE. Dean has a better chance (but not by much IMO).

Dean is just a flip-flopping "constepated football coach" (my roommate's quoted words)

I think the idea of bigger government without a lot of waste would help alleviate our crime and health care problems more than gun control would. But, I'm for licensing and registration of guns, and I'd like national standards to help thwart criminals going to other states. Essentials should have quite a bit of spending, IMO. I agree with Kucinich on the death penalty, because it's barbaric, but there's more to it. If we execute every murderer who we have on video tape committing a murder, that would be unfair - because some murderers are more heinous. And it's also unfair to pick and choose which crimes deserve the ultimate punishment - it leaves room for bias. As for abortion, I think Kucinich has pretty much committed himself to his current position. It would look really silly to go back now. I can forgive because I think he has a good heart, but if you can't, I won't bash you for it.

The only TRUE anti-war cadidate.

Dean says he's "to the right of Bush" on the issue of balancing the budget. Since Bush has created the largest deficit in the history of the country, I would HOPE that everyone would be to the right of him.

I agree with Dennis that balancing the budget need not be the #1 priority, but I am a little worried that he does not make it more of a realistic goal for his presidency. I think he should be able to promise a balanced budget within 8 years.

What else will matter on 1/20/05???? Personally I would love to see Barney Frank be our nominee. But he could NOT win in November, so what good would it have done??

I remember being ecstatic about McGovern winning the nomination in 1972. Up until the morning after the election, that is. Thrill wore off really fast after that.

Why oh why does DC (where NO guns are allowed) have the highest murder rate while Vermont (No gun laws whatsoever) has the lowest?

What's up with that?

I think people like Kerry are trying to politicize this issue, knowing darn well that there is a difference in how guns need to be regulated for different states. Dean understands this. Does Kucinich, or is he doing the same thing as Kerry?

I went out to the flea market today (it's in West Columbia S.C.), and manned a table for Kucinich. The Southern folk ain't too fond of NAFTA, and they're warming up to national health insurance.

DK is the only candidate on the left who is articulating a comprehensive and visionary economic plan. Some of the others are just sitting back, bashing Bush and getting talked out of taking risks by their handlers.

I am warming up to Dean a little bit. I saw his speech at the Georgetown School of Economics, and I think he's softened his position on NAFTA - I think he's saying he's willing to reconsider it. And I like the fact that he wants to try and reach out to the Southern working class - though he might want to replace "confederate flag" with "Earnhardt Sticker" next time. I think the good doctor had the right diagnosis, but the wrong prescription.

but I suggest you begin to get used to the concept of a Dean / Bush race in November 2004.

BTW Dean would have done quite a bit to make Iraq a success, by not going to war in the first place.

Dennis is a great guy with some good ideas. He is a veritable left wing firebrand and I love him for it. Dennis is an idealog and a great advocate for his causes. This is exactly why he polls at 2 percent running for President.

Leadership is exactly in conflict with being a uncompromising advocate for your causes. Carter was somewhat similar in this direction which is why he was less effective than he could have been. Political leadership involves working to build coalitions and consensus. This means you don't always get everything you wanted.

Dennis is an 'accept no substitutes' kind of guy. A laudable characteristic in a congressman, and exactly the reason that he will not become President.