I see myself becoming more of a pacifist by the day

I dont know if I am really. I must say these last few years have been influential in why I may think I may be one, all this war makes me sad for those who have to that hard work, and those who get in the crossfire and etc, I do respect those who serve their country in war. A lot I think has influenced my potential pacifism, books, movies, and the reality of these past few years. I really dont know what I am, but I do know this, I fear more and more wars coming, and I hate war. Let me please share some quotes that could have to with why I may be a pacifist or more so inspire me to be less hawkish no matter what.

"I have seen war. I have seen war on land and sea. I have seen blood running from the wounded. I have seen men coughing out their gassed lungs. I have seen the dead in the mud. I have seen cities destroyed. I have seen 200 limping, exhausted men come out of line—the survivors of a regiment of 1,000 that went forward 48 hours before. I have seen children starving. I have seen the agony of mothers and wives. I hate war." FDR said this 67 years ago, it explains my attiude perfectly and I know FDR himself was no pacifist, he sure did hate war for what it was.

"I am young, I am twenty years old; yet I know nothing of life but despair, death, fear, and fatuous superficiality cast over an abyss of sorrow. I see how peoples are set against one another, and in silence, unknowingly, foolishly, obediently, innocently slay one another." This has to with me being young yet knowing how horrible war is. Thats from All Quiet on the Western Front which has become my inspiration for my beliefs and the next two quotes will be from that beautiful epic.

"Do I walk? Have I feet still? I raise my eyes, I let them move round, and turn myself with them, one circle, one circle, and I stand in the midst. All is as usual. Only the Militiaman Stanislaus Katczinsky has died. Then I know nothing more." War takes away the people you have grown attached to, your friends, people you were ever the close to.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." This is by Einstein and has alot to do with my opposition to these weapon systems that make the Atom Bomb dropped on Japan look like a child's toy.

I know personally not what war is being only 16 but I do know this, that war is a horrible thing. I just cant believe that so many get hawkish. I admit I could never be a true pacifist but I do believe that we need peace. Call me an idealist or whatever, the way wars come and go is saddening, all those who die leave a story to tell, a family member, someone who cared. Thats the tragedy of war, but there are no winners in war. One other thing I would like to add, my generation is being sent in to the fight, the people I grow up with, the people I laugh, cry, and etc with will be sent to these wars. I have many vets in my family and I respect them to death for their sacriface. I wonder about the past so much honestly, and yes there are wars I would have proudly fought in, the US Civil war, WWII, and the causes for revolution.

the hardest thing is to keep peace within yourself. For to be a true pacifist, this is what you need to do. This involves a lot of tolerance and a lot of self-discipline, especially when those who are warlike in thought if not deed attack you. I have yet to master it, but I try every day to find that peace and to maintain it.

but I believe in the cause of peace and justice.

Well said.

I desire peace above all things. That being said, I can also handle my self in a fight quite well. I believe that he who desires peace must be ready to fight to keep the peace. Vigilance is better than enslavement.

I would be willing to sacriface if I had to.

And it ain't easy. I'd just be happy with world that seeks other than violent solutions first, and puts war as an option way, way down the line. Seems like war was the first, last and only option as far as the situation with Iraq was concerned, and very little else was given any opportunity to succeed.

Now, we're down about 400 service personnel, uncounted and uncountable thousands of Iraqi dead, the liberators have become occupiers, carrying out mass reprisals on civilians for real or suspected attacks, and generally making a mess of an already messy situation. What problem were we trying to solve again?

I didn't have a single genuine thought in my head at that age, except about baseball, pimples, and hoping to be "popular" in high school. You're amazingly conscious and developed for that age. When I was 16, I had never heard of the FDR or Einstein quotes you mentioned, & had never heard of "All Quiet on the Western Front." I naively and unquestioningly believed that American leaders always acted on the basis of high moral principles. (This was despite the fact that in my 16th year, JFK was assassinated and the Vietnam war was gearing up.)

Your parents must have provided a remarkably high-consciousness environment for you to grow up in, I guess? Please give them my sincere congratulations! :toast:

You see Rich I am like most other high schoolers, I pay attention to sports and I too love my Orioles(baseball team) and I went to a football game last night which we won. I care about my looks, I wish I had a girlfriend. I dont care about popularity though. Thanks but I am at heart like most others my age, I play the video games, etc. I am normal except I am a leftist who wants to know why and why not, I am. Thank you though for your comments.

Take this from a Quaker pacifist of long standing. Friends have a long tradition of pacifism.

Some would only 'turn the other cheek' to an aggressor. Some certainly would defend themselves and their loved ones.

Much controversy revolved about service in the military during the second world war. Some Friends went into the military to fight fascism. Some drove ambulances to care for the wounded. Some were conscientious objectors and served alternative service in this country.

We must be led by our conscience in each instance. My conscience led me to protest this war.

Excellent post.

but I highly respect and like a lot of their views. Yes Ive read that about them doing noncombat duty. My heart too led me to oppose and protest this war.

You don't have to have it all decided right now. There's plenty of time yet to decide what label fits for you... or, if none do.

You're doing the very important and hard work... you're reading, you're listening, you're watching, and you're thinking. (Hey, don't forget to take some time out and have some fun!)

All that's missing in your equation is life experience. That will weave into all the other work that you're doing, and, if you're listening to yourself, will show you who you are meant to be.

*Our* job is to figure out how to have you cloned... by the thousands!

And right away.

^_^

Kanary

I see Saving Private Ryan and unlike some I dont become a hawk, I become dedicated to preventing wars and honoring the fallen, the scene on Omaha Beach and the fact that Cpt John Miller never lived. The graveyard scene always brings a tear to my eye.

someone like me who knows that there are things worth fighting and dying for but certainly not these wars our capitalistic greed has caused.

I have not seen what is properly defined as combat but I did hold one of my friends in my lap as he died, shot in one of the many unpublicized incidents the public will never hear about. It was enough for me and clinched my thinking on life, death, our government's total lack of regard for anything other than materialistic gain and exploitation of other nations and peoples.

From what I've read of you, I think we have a lot in common except that this war has caused you to think of things most of us never thought about at your age. As this war drags on and leads to other wars (and it shall unless America has the courage to elect Kucinich who is the only candidate up there speaking the truth about the situation we're in) more people will wake up to the horror and shame of what so many are desperately trying to ignore.

There will be many more wars because there's no stopping it now- our country requires it because we're empty. We are a parasite and can't survive the way we now live unless we exploit someone else. It won't matter if it's a Dem or a Republican in office- the path is traced. Under Clinton, we sanctioned and bombed the crap out of Iraq for the 8 years following Bush I's war, under Clinton we pulverised Yugoslavia in a war that went all the way to Belgrade- way beyond Kosovo despite the carefully crafted illusion that it was just a humanitarian intervention in Kosovo crafted to conceal what was really going on.

John, as your friend, I beg you to start documenting your semi-pacifism now. If anyone but Kucinich wins, we will be in Iran and Syria, alone with no one but Israel as an "ally". Start documenting your stance now. The 2 years head start will come in very handy when they call you to go hunt Al-Queda in Syria or Saudi Arabia.

This has little to do with Bush anymore- the beast has been unleashed and everywhere there is an oil field, there will be Al-Queda for us to fight because we MUST control those oil fields. Our future depends on it.

Peace

who died in your arms. Thanks for your comments too.

It hurts to remember it but I saved the blood-stained set of BDUs I was wearing that day as a reminder, a morbid souvenir of innocence and life lost. That is a major reason I am anti-war.

Military people bond intensely because we live train eat and live closely together. It really is one huge family where everyone is just a few degrees separated. We do not take kindly to the loss of our own but more than anything we hate anyone who trivializes that loss.

Some military people think that non-patriots trivialize it. Others, in increasing numbers as they see death, hate those who trivialize it by enabling immoral wars and occupation. The Democratic Party should not be so certain that the military will get behind it because now that people are asking questions, hot air may not be enough.

Peace

"Comrade, I did not want to kill you…. But you were only an idea to me before, an abstraction that lived in my mind and called forth its appropriate response…. I thought of your hand-grenades, of your bayonet, of your rifle; now I see your wife and your face and our fellowship. Forgive me, comrade. We always see it too late. Why do they never tell us that you are poor devils like us, that your mothers are just as anxious as ours, and that we have the same fear of death, and the same dying and the same agony—Forgive me, comrade; how could you be my enemy"
Only difference is that this was your personal comrade, what that book did for me at least was made me forget who was the "good guy" and the "bad guy" they didnt seem like enemies of our country they seemed like regular old guys who got caught up in the war. You lose your friends, people who become so close to you.

they already have a bunch of puppets that can please corporate greed installed there. As for Syria, that's another matter.

Instead of asking "How hih?" when the US says jump, they're just feebly hopping an inch or two off the ground. Additionally, thet make some serious errors in judgement by giving aid and comfort to the Palestinians (remember the telethon?). I don't think the US has anything personal against the Palestinians other than wishing they would just go away and stop being such a huge thorn in our plans but Israel does and neither country is pleased with SA over that support.

And then... again... because of the House of Saud's duplicitious dealings, do you not think the people will want them out? We must by all means, ensure those oil fields don't fall under the wrong control.

The puppets have proven weak...

The House of Saud isn't likely to fall any time soon, and if paying off bribes to Al Qaeda ensures the survival of their regime, why should the US care?

The question must be asked: Is there gain for corporations in it? I don't see any major gain for them.

When it comes to I/P, as long as Israel continues supporting the US's policy of serving corporate greed in the Middle East (Israel is corporate greed's, and therefore the USA's, only true ally in the Middle East; the others only support the excersise of corporate imperialism in their own countries, not others - note Saudi Arabia's stance against the Iraq war) the Palestinians will be ignored. What anyone does to them, in aid or harm, won't matter unless it interferes with corporate interests - in wich case whoever is doing it will find an American cruise missile exploding in their palace.

But I must say that if Bush* gets elected or re-selected in 2004, I don't know what will happen, and I shudder to find out...

I wasnt even politically aware (didnt know the difference between left and right , DEM or GOP) until after I was involved in a war. I was totally indifferent. Desert Storm changed all of that for me. You can still be respectful of the military and be a pacifist too. :hi:

good post johnkleeb but i expect this from you anyways so I am not surprised.

:hi:

checkout this link from the Mash episode where a reporter from "back home" interviews the folks at Mash on their thoughts on the war ... some great quotes here: http://www.mash4077.co.uk/classic/interview.html

my personal feeling is that I'm not a pacifist ... i believe you have to defend yourself when confronted if there's no other alternative ... and sometimes there just isn't a viable alternative ... the standard for the use of violent force must always be that the use of force was unavoidable and that the amount of force used was the minimum possible amount to bring about a situation where its continued use is no longer unavoidable ... i call the standard "minimum necessary force" ...

i used to do some draft counseling during the vietnam war ... our main mission was to help draftees obtain conscientious objector status ... the classic draft board question was: "you mean if your mother were being raped and your only option to stop it was to use force, you wouldn't use force ... c'mon ... do you expect us to believe that !!!???" ... some believe that violence only begets violence ... they may be right ... but sometimes, there just isn't an alternative ...

I believe in peace, but only on a large scale, like war. However, if someone threatens my family, my friends, or me personally, I would have no reservations for kicking his ass. As far as this Iraq war is concerned, this war did NOT need to happen. I would NOT be willing to go there and fight, although the soldiers there have my utmost respect and gratitude.

I believe there are alternate ways of dealing with problems with other countries other than war. That's just my opinion.

Thank you.

Of course, I would be willing to fight. I am just saying that I think the common place of war these days is saddening. I would resist if someone invaded, I am not a total pacifist.

By choice, not by inclination. Since I already know how to fight, I think my lesson is to learn how to cooperate. How to achieve goals without aggression. So I've been working on it for decades. I check my responses and reactions to events, and I feel discouraged, because I want to rage against them. And then I look back over the years, and I realize that I have made tremendous progress. The process continues.

There is a man I have tremendous care and respect for; an elderly quaker gentleman from the east coast who has been out there working for peace since GWB first decided to head to the middle east. Just another chapter in a life of working for peace for him. He sent me some pics of him, and his group, demonstrating in front of a U.S. nuclear weapons facility last winter, with signs saying "Weapons of mass distruction found."

The pragmatists get many things done. The idealists create the conditions that lead to fundamental change for good. Both are necessary. Be a proud idealist, and keep caring about people and the world, John. Maybe, in my final years, I'll be voting for you to bring hope and change where it's needed.

History I believe remembers the idealist. My dad told me that pragamatics come and go but ideals last forever. We need both though. I wont be running for office though, never want to.

:hug:

Here was a man who voted democratic which is great but didnt care about the primary process, hes been inspired by Kucinich and sent pamphlets (the ones Tiniore gave me) to family and friends. It was funny how he and I met DK that night, hes walking down the street of DC (he didnt go in for some reason), and he sees Kucinich and starts talking to him about me and gets his autograph, then I see a guy talking with DK and little do I know its my dad!, hes still talking about me I am like dad right here, and me and Dennis shook hands, it was perhaps the greatest moment of my life.

great moment :wow:

you sure know how to pick'em :toast:

peace

I think that war is very rarely neccesary and that it is tossed around incorrectly as the only solution.

The only justified wars are ones for self-defense or ones for humanitarian purposes. So few wars fall into either of those categories that pretty much any war our government tells us to fight is stupid or unneccesary.

If they wanted to liberate the Iraqi people, why not empower them? Make sanctions strictly for weapons, and promise the Kurds, the Shiites, and the Sunnis their own state, free from the oppression of any of the others. Saddam would have fallen in months; he was crippled and had been for a long time.

But no, our government never would have considered such a thing. A viable three-state solution in Iraq would not have let the US corporations steal oil and gain exclusive government contracts to do so.

The easiest way for our world to eliminate tyranny by peaceful means is by eliminating their outside support as much as possible. Get rid of our oil dependence. Stop supporting the House of Saud or the rulers of Kuwait. Stop supporting terrorism. Stop supporting the import of excessive capitalism to other nations under the guise of "globalization."

No more war, I say. No more war to make the world safe for unrestricted multinational corporations. No more war to help import capitalism across the globe.

It's time for tolerance and unity. It's time to reject oppression and racism and war. It's time to reject tyranny and rule of the elite, whether generated through capitalism or lack of political freedom.

I feel like owning an AK-47 lately....

I was fully convinced by the arguments laid out in that movie, and I haven't read anything since that dented them. I'm not as optimistic as Gandhi--I don't think nonviolence inevitably leads to victory. But I do accept the other side of the argument--that any victory achieved by violence is tantamount to defeat because it is always temporary. You cannot win, in any acceptable meaning of the term win, with a strategy that includes the tactic of violence.

But how could I be more incenced than Ghandi or his followers that were mercillously attacked by the British Imperialists?

I doubt I could be.

No...I don't know really.

I dont think I am and got a temper myself.

but now the only thing I can get enraged about is politics.

Bush* has made me too angry to focus it anywhere else.

Or maybe I'm just being overly arrogant as usual. :shrug:

I'm not sure what it is though. I mean, I hate the violence in Hockey, I cringe when I see a parent hit a child, I abhor bar fights because they're all over such STUPID shit, I simply have a visceral disgust when I witness violence, I'm even instantly mortified when I hurt someone elses feeling with angry words.

But on the flip side I accept that conflict, of a non-political/verbal/legal flavor, may sometimes be the only way to solve an intractable problem.

It's an ugly realization but one that I've grown to accept.

I have a feeling that we're a lot alike in that way.

Peace lovers that aren't Pacifists...

let no man sway you from your path toward enlightenment. :)