Family of starved children on 60 Minutes

I hope there isn't already another thread discussing this. Anyway, I saw that family on 60 Minutes last night and I have to say that that appearance did not help them in my eyes. Let me say right up front that I was raised in an abusive foster home so I am biased in cases like this, however I did try to watch the show with an open mind. I kept waiting for someone in that family to say something that would make me think, 'OK, I can see how things might have happened the way they did'. I didn't hear anything like that. The mom was dabbing at her eyes saying that she wanted her children back but I didn't see any tears. And frankly, with the shape that those boys were in it's not really a matter of what she "wants" but what those boys actually need. I don't believe for a second that four boys who aren't related by blood would ALL have eating disorders. Even if they were related, I can't imagine what the odds would be for them to all have the same affliction. The family tried to explain this by saying that the oldest boy had developed a habit of repeatedly regurgitating his food and re-swallowing it and that the other boys had started imitating this behavior. Bullshit. It would be incredible for ONE boy to start imitating this behavior for an extended period, but for THREE boys to pick up this habit is something that I just don't buy. Even if it were true the parents should have immediately isolated the other three boys from the oldest one so that they did not imitate his self-destructive behavior. As I watched the home video they had of the oldest boys indulging this strange habit, the first thing that popped into my mind wasn't that he had an eating disorder but that he was savoring this food for as long as possible because he didn't know when he would get food again.

And then there was that pastor who has been giving the family his support. When Dan Rather asked him if he ever thought there was a problem with the boys he said something defensive and flippant like, "Well, I wasn't going to go up to one of the boys and ask him 'Hey kid, why are you so small'. NO ONE is suggesting he should have taken such a tactless approach!!! These people really pissed me off. I'm ranting. I'm sorry. Maybe some of you had a different take on what you saw. Please share with me your views.

The parents, the preacher and those kids look and act nuts like they are in some Jim Jones style cult.

The thing that will send them to jail is the fact that the kids are now thriving.

I was wondering if maybe there was some kind of religious cult thing going on too. You know, where they don't seek any medical help but just pray over the children instead.

The only thing wrong with those kids was that they were starving.
I think it was some sort of crazy weird shit.

I could tell those older kids were not telling the truth. It was spooky.

"...is the fact that the kids are now thriving." Those were my thoughts exactly. The said the kids have been gaining weight since being taken out of that situation.

I didn't see the interview because the whole thing about kids being taken from their parents and then dying or nearly dying has my nerves fried.

on the CBS News lead up it was mentioned that these kids had gained weight since being removed from the home. That very fact contradicts the parents claims of eating disorders/inability to gain weight.

Hmmmmm.....did they mention if the parents were donating any of the state sponsored money to the pastors' church?

in the CBS piece he was driving a Range Rover.

That wouldn't surprise me in the least. There has to be some reason why this guy is throwing his support behind this family to the extent that he is.

Also, does anyone know whether these children went to school? Did Bruce, the 19 year old, graduate from high school? What the hell?

*

is anyone familiar with the book babywise by gary ezzo?

this man has absolutely no theological or pediatric training but says that infants should be fed on strict parent-controled schedules, instead of feeding on demand when infants are hungry.

this has led to failure to thrive, dehydration and slow growth.

heres an article.

http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/9108.html


i wouldnt be surprised if the foster parents and the church were somehow related to these boys' abuse.

...a customer came in and saw his book in our store and actually told one of the booksellers to inform the manager that this book came highly UNrecommeded. She said that there had been reports of children dying at the hands of parent who followed this books advice.

if children died by his methods. you can not spoil an infant by giving them food when they are hungry and attention when they cry.

ezzo has another book called "growing children god's way" like children are friggin' bonsai trees.

These people only THINK they can grasp God's way. God actually has a lot more imagination than they do.

Then breastfeeding on demand is the only effective way.

I've replicated one study and I'm setting up another one on women who breast-feed on demand (keep baby in sling, feed often in small amounts) versus women who do not. (breast feeding only - we did not consider formula babies)

Moms are healthier - 72 % fewer breast difficulties, faster post birth weight-loss and better toning of muscles; moms sleep better, experience less pain. Menses do not return and pregnancy is less likely for longer.

Babies are healthier - gain weight faster, fewer digestive disorders, less diarrhea.

The biological basis - if you're a creationist, the way God made us - says that he's full of shit.

Politicat

going to a new caretaker wouldn't have changed a supposedly
deep psychological condition. That they are doing better is
a bad thing for the abusers. It shows them to be liars.

That a church would step in and help them and not the suffering
little children shows their 'religion' to be a lie too.

....was the follow up at the end. All three boys are eating everything they are offered and have gained significant amounts of weight since being removed from the home.

So does this qualify as a hate crime since all three were singled out based on gender?

That was strange. Although, the Jackson' did have one biological male child. But still, all those obviously well-fed girls...

or any other family that does things that result in children having problems, but people here have to realize that not everybody has the average DUer's education and ability to deal with life.

These children had problems, it seems. According to the older kid's bio parents, he had an eating disorder when he was a baby and did regurgitate into his mouth when he could. Will other disturbed children pick up this behavior? You betcha. Neglected children have a whole host of horrific and bizarre behavior that makes no sense at all to the non-neglected.

This family should obviously not been given one, let alone several, special needs kids. But it is very possible for them to have had the best intentions and belief that they were doing the right thing and still been unable to cope with these childrens' problems. I've seen kids with reflux taken from mothers because of failure to thrive when it was the mother's inability, NOT her neglectfulness that led to the problem.

There's people out there who cannot deal competently with medical problems. People do stupid things to cope with problems (like maybe feeding them pancake batter or tying them to a bed), things a person with a modicom of education and a smidgeon of a middle-class upbringing would never do, but many times the reason is incompetence, not criminal motives, not gendercide, not hate crimes.

Energy would be better spent lobbying for more support for parents with kids with problems, than on criminalizing these ignorant people.

...but it seems to me that once the childrens' problems started affecting there health to the extent that was evident with these children then it is time for these people to let someone else intervene. This family did not seem that uneducated to me and even the most uneducated person would realize when they have reached the limits of their abilities and not take on the extra responsibility that FOUR troubled children entails.

I hope that I'm not sounding snippy. I don't mean to if I do. I grew up in a foster home where there was a screwed up dynamic involving food and money and I can't help but suspect that there are people out there who take in foster children just for the stipend they get for each child. The woman who raised me received this stipend plus child support from my father and she so apparently resented having to feed me. There was no such thing as a "midnight snack" in that house. There was cold cereal during the warm seasons and instant oatmeal during the cold ones. She never bought whole milk, just that Carnation condensed milk in a can which I'd add water to and use for my cereal. I ate lunch at the school cafeteria so for most of the year dinner was the only hot meal this woman prepared for me. She bought almost all of my clothes from thrift stores and would help herself to whatever money I had earned running errands for neighbors. And this woman was not poor. I don't mean to slam foster parents but I've come to suspect that some people out there are using the system to make a buck. I heard a really horrible quote a few weeks ago: "Life is a series of scams. The trick is to get in on one." I think that for some people, their "scam" is working the foster care system for money.

You cannot explain this away!!
The other children are healthy, the abused kids are doing well now that THEY ARE NOT BEING STARVED!!!
This is sickening, how can ANYONE treat a living being this way?
And to try and explain it away?
These people are SICK, they are CRIMINALS, and should GO TO JAIL.
Was I direct enough? could I be more blunt?
Children need protection, the state failed, the church failed, seems like everyone failed these kids.
The social workers are screaming that they shouldn't lose their jobs. They are lucky that the kids didn't die. The loss of their jobs would be the least of their worries.

as you want. I work with people like this, and I know what I deal with every day. You won't get anywhere with trying to get them to take their kids to the Dr. if you scream at them that they are criminals, sick, and should go to jail.

I just don't buy the eating disorder story. If any of the kids really had eating disorders, they would have been taken to the doctor at least once, even by the worst of parents.

...on this episode of 60 Minutes was the lawyer saying that these children would have died if they'd stayed in that house. This should have been clear to those parents. How much more does a child have to waste away before you realized that he or she is dying before your very eyes? Did the Jacksons think that these boys were just suddenly going to get better and start gaining weight on their own? When a 19 year old falls well under 100 lbs. anyone should realize that they have a SERIOUS problem on their hands.

The simple fact is that they had a number of healthy biological children, and I refuse to believe that anyone in an even-slightly functional state of mind could believe that 45 lbs is an acceptable weight for a nineteen year old! My brother weighed 170 lbs when he was that age, I weighed 120 lbs. There is absolutely no way to explain this away, imho.

sick bastards...

I also saw the 60 Minutes program last night. I get the weird feeling that church they belong to played some role in this abuse. How on earth could a pastor and congregation stand so firmly behind the parents in this situation? Along with paying the parents' bail, I also read that this church was recently paying the family's rent, as they were months overdue. What is going on here?

that if these kids had had eating disorders in a household with middle-class, reasonably educated standards they would have been taken to the Dr. But the fact that they weren't (if they had eating disorders) doesn't necessarily mean that the family was criminal. Not everyone as the same attitude toward seeking medical help that you and I do. My point is not that they shouldn't have been taken to the Dr, it's that failure to do so is not evidence of criminality in every stratum of our society.

I could understand your point more if this family had struck me as considerably LESS that middle-class and reasonably educated. They and their biological children simply did not strike me as being low on the socio-economic and educational ladder.

quite so clueless. I refuse to believe that. It is clearly abuse, whether they were starved or actually had eating disorders. There's no way around it.

working class (which is middle class) OR undereducated people. I'm talking about some people who do not live by middle class values and who are not well educated. And yes, some people are extremely clueless.

...RobinA, isn't a certain level of education and adherence to middle class values looked for and expected before placing a child--let alone four children--in a foster home?

And these weren't just foster kids, they were formally adopted!!!

that pastor and congregation sat by and watched this happen. It goes beyond two "clueless" parents. Let's get real here. This is an abuse case if ever there was one!!

And what the hell does it have to do with education? Nothing. Even people who went to Clemson know that you have to eat.

I hope the parents go to jail for a very long time.

They are foster parents and had to hold to a listing
of behaviors to have the kids. They didn't. I don't
see socio-income, education as a factor here. I see
people scape-goating a portion of their family and
taking care of the rest. This is a common thing in
severely abusive situations. These people cannot explain
nor can it be mitigated by outside factors what they
did. They starved children deliberately. If they were
indeed simple-minded as some might believe, they
would have harmed all of them. Because they didn't,
they chose their course of action carefully and
turned a blind eye to children in extremis. They need
a healthy and long term stay in prison.

That nineteen year old boy was four feet tall and
weighted 59 pounds. He will pay forever for their
cruelty. What awful, terrible people these are.

According to the older kid's bio parents, he had an eating disorder when he was a baby and did regurgitate into his mouth when he could. Will other disturbed children pick up this behavior? You betcha...There's people out there who cannot deal competently with medical problems.

Not these people--not if they were competent enough to keep their OTHER children properly fed! And if, as they claim, the boys were suffering from eating disorders, they should have sought help, especially if feeding them pancake batter wasn't doing the trick!


rocknation

if they were given adequate access to food. these boys were starved!!!

and as i know the parents were getting monetary support, if they did have eating disorders they should have been treated.


these boys were neglected, plain and simple. either their dietary needs were neglected or they psychological needs were neglected.


plain and simple.

your world is plain and simple. Our president lives in a plain and simple world as well. Mine is not nearly so balck and white.

edit: i wasnt attacking you so im not sure why you feel it is appropriate to attack me by analogy to commander asshat.

second. on face value there is some where that the system failed these boys. either the parents denied them food and the religious and CPS ignored what was going on. or the parents denied them adquate medical care to help treat their eating disorders. or CPS knew something was going on and did nothing. or the church knew something was going on and did nothing. need i go on???

there are various things wrong with this story and various ways in which it could have been remedied.

He was adopted and was about 16, and the 'family' tied him up and beat him to death because he did not 'obey' them (god's word) and because they went to church regularly and probably gave money to the church the church goers were on the side of the murderers against the teenaged boy....I think that is when I actually HATED the reight wing religious zealots.

...that a similar dynamic is at work here. That pastor really burned my ass with that flippant response of his.

If there's any justice to be had here!!

The mom was dabbing at her eyes saying that she wanted her children back but I didn't see any tears. And frankly, with the shape that those boys were in it's not really a matter of what she "wants" but what those boys actually need.
After all that's happened, it's still about poor pitiful THEM trying to get THEIR kids back. THAT would tacitly exonerate them, of course, but why get caught up in petty details?

The family tried to explain...that the oldest boy had developed a habit of repeatedly regurgitating his food and re-swallowing it and that the other boys had started imitating this behavior.
Yet they didn't think it was something they should see a doctor about? Their lawyers may have arranged this interview so that they could be paid. But don't they realize that their clients hanged themselves by ADMITTING to suspecting an eating disorder? That's going to be REAL hard to explain away in court!


rocknation

...I do have to say that I read that the Jackson's would not be paid for their appearance on 60 Minutes. But still, like I said, their appearance on the show did nothing for them in my opinion.

and Bush never said "mission accomplished" or "immenent threat." That's all the more reason to wonder if they money went straight to their lawyers.


rocknation

And funny how those eating disorders cleared right up when they were removed from the home!

A neighbor of this family called the police upon finding the oldest child going through his garbage late at night.

I'm sorry, a child looking through garbage for food does not have an eating disorder, he's STARVING!!

...the one sister claiming that rummaging through garbage was a thing that Bruce, the 19 year old, did when he was upset about something? She claimed that he did the same thing when the family dog died. A habit of rummaging through the garbage brought on by stress--yeah right.

kids who are not starving will rummage through garbage cans for food. Now, this child may have been starving, I'm not talking about him. But addressing your general statement, neglected kids do all kinds of weird stuff with food (and feces). If lack of food is part of past neglect, kids will hoard food long after they are quite well fed. It's a survival thing. When their mother wasn't feeding them they learned to get food where they could, or they wouldn't be alive today. It gets etched into their brains. When they get to foster care, even well-fed foster care, they hoard any food they can get their hands on, and it's damn near unstoppable. They hide ice cream under the bed, quarts of milk, lunch meat, half-eaten hamburgers.... They sneak down to the kitchen at night and take what they can find. They don't care if it's from the trash can or the refrigerator. They steal exactly as if they were starving, because they expect to be starving again and are trying to guard against they day.

The first inkling the mother has is when it starts to stink. She finds in under the bed and the kid is busted. Couple days later the place starts to stink again. It's not under the bed, because it will be found there. The search is on. Often they hide the food all over their room, so if one cache gets discovered they will still have others.

Not saying that was going on here, but weird shit does happen.

i hadnt heard any. because if there was food under their beds or in their closets etc. that would be evidence that they had access to food.


and its not like the food they were given was wholesome or anything. it was raw pancake batter. the parents didnt just "forget" to feed them. or fed them only in small amount. they were intentially given food that would not sustain them.

Brittany Murphy's character in "Girl Interrupted" kept those chickens under her bed. at the time I did not think that was a real "ailment"...wow.

However, I think that the family is a little too eager to offer a myriad of explanations and excuses for the conditions of the four boys. Most of these explanations place the blame on the boys themselves. That's not right.

the 4 adopted boys were forced to cut the lawn with hand clippers--neighbors saw them doing this. Neighbors also said the boys were made to wash their clothes outside in plastic buckets.

Unfortunately I did not see the 60 Minutes II interview (due to That's 70 Show), I've only read the mass media stories. I have never heard of a child under stress rooting for garbage, but I'm not a social worker(my sister is, I'm going to ask her.)I am also wondering why in some child abuse cases, there are children who are abused and children who are healthy/well-treated in the same family (this also happens in the popular "Child Called It" book series).

I had a heart-breaking thought after reading your post, skypilot...when I am stressed, I tend to EAT.
Poor things. I hope the next phase of their lives is full of love and everything else they could possibly want.

I've got to wonder now what other "stressers" there were in that house. The sister talked as though Bruce's rooting through garbage was an ongoing thing. What else, besides the death of the family dog, sets him off like this if what she is saying is true. Also, I would think that the death of the family pet would have served as some sort of wake up call for this family. If pets were dying it's not that much of a leap to imagine a child dying--especially a child that was in such poor health as these boys were. I mean, do living things just DIE in this house. How far from death were those boys?

On edit: Feel free to disregard this last little rant. For all I know the family dog was hit by a car.

He was so astonished and horrified when told the boy was 19.

(besides the fact that there is some contraversy as to whether his abuse really happened, but lets ignore that).

lets just assume that the boy's foster parents are mentally unbalanced and that lead to the abuse. in some abuse cases, is with ABNI the abuse, was focused on one (or one group) and not all. they could have thought that the boys needed special structure and discipline because of their backgrounds etc.

maybe both parents have munchausens by proxy (when parents, usually mothers, intentionally make their children sick).


lets assume that the foster children had eating disorders, mental issues.


even if either of those situations were the case, those boys should not have been with those foster parents. One needs to look simply at the condition of the boys when they were found. if the parents were sick, they were abusing the boys by denying them food. if the boys were sick, the parents denied them medical care.

My understanding is that they were all Adopted sons (just to set the record straight).