Emergency: Need Help refuting a Freeper style email....

My husband belongs to several message boards. This message was put up on a board he runs. We need DU help crafting a really good "Sit Down Waldo!" type response.

As you will soon see the post has several "bullet" points. WHat I need is you help in refuting this guy point by point. If you have web links for articles or stats that would be even better. Give me rebuttals for each point or only one at a time. We want to really shut this guy down. We want it to sting a bit. Having said this, prepare to hold your nose and be a little sick. I know DU can help. This is a great group of debaters. Here is the post:

--I sat in a movie theater watching "Schindler's List," asked myself, "Why didn't the Jews fight back?"
Now I know why.
--I sat in a movie theater, watching "Pearl Harbor" and asked myself, "Why weren't we prepared?"
Now I know why.
--Civilized people cannot fathom, much less predict, the actions of evil people.
--On September 11, dozens of capable airplane passengers allowed themselves to be overpowered by a handful of poorly armed terrorists because they did not comprehend the depth of hatred that motivated their captors.
--On September 11, thousands of innocent people were murdered because too many Americans naively reject the reality that some nations are dedicated to the dominance of others. Many political pundits, pacifists and media personnel want us to forget the carnage. They say we must focus on the bravery of the rescuers and ignore the cowardice of the killers. They implore us to understand the motivation of the perpetrators. Major television stations have announced they will assist the healing process by not replaying devastating footage of the planes crashing into the Twin Towers.
--I will not be manipulated.
--I will not pretend to understand.
--I will not forget.
--I will not forget the liberal media who abused freedom of the press to kick our country when it was vulnerable and hurting.
--I will not forget that CBS anchor Dan Rather preceded President Bush's address to the nation with the snide remark, "No matter how you feel about him, he is still our president."
--I will not forget that ABC TV anchor Peter Jennings questioned President Bush's motives for not returning immediately to Washington, DC and commented, "We're all pretty skeptical and cynical about Washington."
--And I will not forget that ABC's Mark Halperin warned if reporters weren't informed of every little detail of this war, they aren't "likely -- nor should they be expected -- to show deference."
--I will not isolate myself from my fellow Americans by pretending an attack on the USS Cole in Yemen was not an attack on the United States of America.
--I will not forget the Clinton administration equipped Islamic terrorists and their supporters with the world's most sophisticated telecommunications equipment and encryption technology, thereby compromising America's ability to trace terrorist radio, cell phone, land lines, faxes and modem communications.
--I will not be appeased with pointless, quick retaliatory strikes like those perfected by the previous administration.
--I will not be comforted by "feel-good, do nothing" regulations like the silly, "Have your bags been under your control?" question at the airport.
--I will not be influenced by so called,"antiwar demonstrators" who exploit the right of __expression to chant anti-American obscenities.
--I will not forget the moral victory handed the North Vietnamese by American war protesters who reviled and spat upon the returning soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines.
--I will not be softened by the wishful thinking of pacifists who chose reassurance over reality.
--I will embrace the wise words of Prime Minister Tony Blair who told the Labor Party conference, "They have no moral inhibition on the slaughter of the innocent. If they could have murdered not 7,000 but 70,000, does anyone doubt they would have done so and rejoiced in it?
There is no compromise possible with such people, no meeting of minds, no point of understanding with such terror. Just a choice: defeat it or be defeated by it. And defeat it we must!"

I will force myself to:
-hear the weeping
-feel the helplessness
-imagine the terror
-sense the panic
-smell the burning flesh
- experience the loss
- remember the hatred.
I sat in a movie theater, watching "Private Ryan" and asked myself, "Where did they find the courage?"
Now I know.
We have no choice. Living without liberty is not living.
-- Ed Evans, MGySgt., USMC (Ret.)
Not as lean, Not as mean, But still a Marine.

The person who sent you this e-mail, is daft. You're never gonna sway them.

It's best to appeal to the middle third of the voters, the swing voters. Put your best foot forward and direct your energy toward convincing them.

Forget about the wing-nuts. You have as much chance of making a dent in them, as they have making a dent in you.

If you read it carefully, notice that there is no justification for a point of view. All that is voiced is emotion without rationale.

You defeat this email by asking the poster to specifically state what point is being made.

Everyone is sad when people die or are abused. So what is the point other than stating the obvious?

but I do find this pretty hillarious:

"On September 11, thousands of innocent people were murdered because too many Americans naively reject the reality that some nations are dedicated to the dominance of others. "

Another question you might respond with. :)

--I sat in a movie theater watching "Schindler's List," asked myself, "Why didn't the Jews fight back?"
Now I know why.
--I sat in a movie theater, watching "Pearl Harbor" and asked myself, "Why weren't we prepared?"
Now I know why.


I used to sit and wonder why Nazism was so popular, and spread so easily. Now I know why.
I used to wonder why good people would just let Hitler run away with their country, and celebrate it. Now I know why.

Please don't send me this right wing bullshit rhetoric anymore.

but you might want to reply something along the lines of:

I will not forget that Roanld Regean's CIA taught al Qaeda how to shot down military helicopters with shoulder fired missiles.

I will not forget that the current President's father permitted Saddam Hussein to stay in power in Iraq, leaving a brutal dictator in place.

I will not forget that same President allowed Saddam Hussein to use poison gas on his own citizens.

I will not forget that same President who left US troops in Somalia without sufficient air support.

I will not forget that this weakness enabled the growth of the terrorists who killed Americans on September 11, 2001.

try that one on for size. in fact, now that I think of it, simply insert these things into the email and send it on. keep the chain going, but put the blame where it belongs.

anybody who says that
"I will force myself to smell the burning flesh" is probably not going to be able to be swayed. Just a guess:) Remember, he's a Marine, he's not supposed to think - he's supposed to shoot and die.

He did read it, like what he read, and forward it, however. His e-mail automatically appended his signature line to it.

Hubby doesn't want to try to sway him. We know that these types of people are pretty much lost causes. The person that posted this little ditty to his site (obviously not the guy who supposedly wrote it) just needs a bit of a "Shaddayup, Moron!".

I need some stuff to post, point for point, right back at this, mostly just to embarrass the guy that put it up there enough to never post crap like this again. The list my hubby is running is a toy and games list. This kinda crap needs to be hit hard enough to discourage others from spewing this crap on a site dedicated to playthings.

I will not forget Reagan running away from Lebanon following the suicide attack on our Marines. Osama bin Laden often refers to this incident as evidence of our supposed cowardice in the face of terroristm.

I will not forget Reagan and the first president Bush repeatedly paying ransom for hostages taken by Islamic terrorists. I will not forget Clinton's refusal to do the same. I will not forget that a decade long reign of American hostage taking in the mideast ended following Clinton's reversal of this Reagan/Bush policy.

I will also not forget the Clinton administration's successful capture and prosecution of those responsible for the first WTC bombing in '93.

I will not forget Clinton's destruction of a plant suspected of producing chemical weapons for Islamic terrorists. I will not forget the conservatives who called this "wagging the dog" in their naive belief that terrorism was not a serious threat to this country.

I will not forget the 24x7 manhunt launched by Clinton to locate and capture or kill the terrorist mastermind, Osama bin Laden. I will not forget Bush cancelling this manhunt upon taking office.

I will not forget Clinton freezing the bank accounts of the Taliban government in Afghanistan when they provided safe haven to bin Laden, the man who masterminded the attack on our embassies in Africa. I will not forget Bush giving the Taliban $46 million dollars in foreign aid while they continued shielding bin Laden.

I will not forget the attack on the USS Cole occured just prior to Clinton leaving office. I will continue wondering why people even bring this subject up?

I will not forget George Tenet publicly complaining about the Bush administration's indifference to the threat of terrorism two months before 9-11. I will not forget the Bush personally nicknaming George Tenet "Chicken Little".

I will especially not forget that Osama bin Laden, not Saddam Hussein, was responsible for the attack on 11 Sep 01.

I will not forget that when first questioned about the events on 9-11, Bush said, "all I could think of was getting myself out of harm's way". I will not forget that saving his own ass is just about the only thing at which Bush has ever been successful.

I will not forget that Bush ordered the US military away from Tora Bora and hired a local Afghan warlord to take their place when our forces had Osama surrounded because Bush feared the politcal repercussions of losing too many men in assaulting the mountain stronghold. I will not forget that Osama escaped and is still at large. I will not forget Bush's promise to get Osama, "dead or alive". I will not forget Bush later saying that Osama, the mastermind behind the attacks on 9-11, "doesn't matter".

This is exactly the kind of stuff I need.

Which explains his white hats vs. black hats mentality and his inability to understand the enemy - he's blinded by his own hate.

--Civilized people cannot fathom, much less predict, the actions of evil people.

This is exactly why so many otherwise intelligent (and some not so intelligent) Americans simply refuse to comprehend the immense amount of evil that the Bush Criminal Empire has perpetrated on this country and the entire world for more than a century.

Friends of the family include names like Hitler, Hinkley, Hussein, and Bin Laden among others. These are facts, not speculation. Yet they refuse to see it, because it conflicts with this ideal of America that all of us WANT to believe in.

This has the air and composition of the right wing factory stench about it. Somewhere on the esat coast, we think Maryland,there is a roomfull of hacks who do nothing for their daily bread but compose right wing crap like this for email.

Thank the Sciafe foundation.

The importance of posting a good response to this is that it was not a direct e-mail, but rather was posted on a board for many to see. The point is not to sway the writer, but rather readers who may naively fall victim to the perpetrators demagoguery.
I hope this helps.

--Civilized people cannot fathom, much less predict, the actions of evil people.

This makes no sense. We can fathom, and predict them, as evidenced by the fact that the US had several times anticipated just such an attack. What I find incredible is that you seem ignorant of this fact. Were you aware that Condoleezza Rice was either lying or terribly ignorant when she claimed that we never could have anticipated such an attack?

--On September 11, dozens of capable airplane passengers allowed themselves to be overpowered by a handful of poorly armed terrorists because they did not comprehend the depth of hatred that motivated their captors.

No, more likely what happened is that the pilots knew that it was standard policy for NORAD to be informed immediately after a plane was hijacked, and believed that citizens would be protected by such measures. The failure of the FAA to adequately respond to the warnings they were given has nothing to do with the pilots’ reactions. They knew the procedures, and trusted them to be followed. We should all be very concerned about why these procedures were not followed, and who exactly was responsible for the failures to respond appropriately to the situation. Accountability, remember?

--On September 11, thousands of innocent people were murdered because too many Americans naively reject the reality that some nations are dedicated to the dominance of others. Many political pundits, pacifists and media personnel want us to forget the carnage. They say we must focus on the bravery of the rescuers and ignore the cowardice of the killers. They implore us to understand the motivation of the perpetrators. Major television stations have announced they will assist the healing process by not replaying devastating footage of the planes crashing into the Twin Towers.

No, they were murdered because there were some fanatics who were seemingly allowed to remain in the US, despite our knowledge of their presence, and the goals of the groups they were affiliated with. I am a pacifist, and I do not want you to forget, I want you to see that those responsible for the failure to appropriately deal with these terrorists BEFORE they murdered thousands of Americans share a part of the blame, in addition to the terrorists themselves.

--I will not be manipulated.

You already have been.

--I will not pretend to understand.

No one is asking you to. You are being asked to ignore the lies and inconsistencies in the administrations’ statements. Don’t do it.

--I will not forget.

By all means, don’t. Don’t forget that for the better part of a year, this administration did NOTHING about Al Qaeda, despite being warned of the group’s dire threat to our country when they assumed control. Don’t forget that they fired the ONE person who first labeled the attack on the Cole as being the work of Al Qaeda.

--I will not forget the liberal media who abused freedom of the press to kick our country when it was vulnerable and hurting.

This makes no sense. But it seems you’re overwhelmed by emotion and not using your facilities for reason so . . .

--I will not forget that CBS anchor Dan Rather preceded President Bush's address to the nation with the snide remark, "No matter how you feel about him, he is still our president."

I suppose you failed to notice that this remark was made in DEFENSE of the unelected fraud. Who, in the time following the attack, has managed to turn the outpouring of sympathy and good will we received after said attack into fear and distrust, and some outright hatred.

--I will not forget that ABC TV anchor Peter Jennings questioned President Bush's motives for not returning immediately to Washington, DC and commented, "We're all pretty skeptical and cynical about Washington."

I suppose you also failed to notice that he was simply stating a truth. We ARE skeptical about Washington. Or was that only true when a Democrat was in command?

--And I will not forget that ABC's Mark Halperin warned if reporters weren't informed of every little detail of this war, they aren't "likely -- nor should they be expected -- to show deference."

Please don’t forget that. This is one of the fundamental reasons that our forefathers deemed a free and independent media to be crucial to maintaining our democratic republic.

--I will not isolate myself from my fellow Americans by pretending an attack on the USS Cole in Yemen was not an attack on the United States of America.

Who is asking you to? Again, this was known to be an Al Qaeda attack, yet the Bush administration did NOTHING for 9 months about this threat to our country.

--I will not forget the Clinton administration equipped Islamic terrorists and their supporters with the world's most sophisticated telecommunications equipment and encryption technology, thereby compromising America's ability to trace terrorist radio, cell phone, land lines, faxes and modem communications.

Odd that you think this matters, since we knew who the hijackers were, where they lived, what groups they were allied with, and which flight training schools they were attending. BEFORE the attack. Please visit http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=7816 “Four 9/11 Moms Battle Bush” where you will read the following:

"I don’t understand, with all the warnings about the possibilities of Al Qaeda using planes as weapons, and the Phoenix Memo from one of your own agents warning that Osama bin Laden was sending operatives to this country for flight-school training, why didn’t you check out flight schools before Sept. 11?" (Kristen Breitweiser, 9/11 widow)

"Do you know how many flight schools there are in the U.S.? Thousands," a senior agent protested. "We couldn’t have investigated them all and found these few guys."

"Wait, you just told me there were too many flight schools and that prohibited you from investigating them before 9/11," Kristen persisted. "How is it that a few hours after the attacks, the nation is brought to its knees, and miraculously F.B.I. agents showed up at Embry-Riddle flight school in Florida where some of the terrorists trained?"

"We got lucky," was the reply. Kristen then asked the agent how the F.B.I. had known exactly which A.T.M. in Portland, Me., would yield a videotape of Mohammed Atta, the leader of the attacks. The agent got some facts confused, then changed his story. When Kristen wouldn’t be pacified by evasive answers, the senior agent parried, "What are you getting at?"

--I will not be appeased with pointless, quick retaliatory strikes like those perfected by the previous administration.

I take it you are appeased by this administrations’ lengthy, deadly, yet equally pointless strikes? Are you not aware that we are more at risk than before the September 11 attacks? Are you not aware that while Iraq was not a hotbed of terrorism before our attacks there, that it is now? Are you not aware that Afghanistan is once again returning to the control of the Taliban?

--I will not be comforted by "feel-good, do nothing" regulations like the silly, "Have your bags been under your control?" question at the airport.

By all means, don’t. These are silly and pointless. As I said above, our government knew who the terrorists were, where they were, and what their groups agenda was. There is no excuse for their failure to act on this knowledge. One could argue that they let it happen on purpose. Many do.

--I will not be influenced by so called,"antiwar demonstrators" who exploit the right of __expression to chant anti-American obscenities.

I am an anti-war demonstrator. I am not anti-American. I am pro-American. Pro-American security, pro-American responsibility. Waging war against Iraq had NOTHING to do with defeating terrorism. Unless it’s terrorism against Israel, that is.

--I will not forget the moral victory handed the North Vietnamese by American war protesters who reviled and spat upon the returning soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines.

That is truly indefensible. I would never, ever disrespect soldiers, airmen, sailors or marines. My problem is with the civilians in charge of the Iraq war who went against the better judgment of the generals who, in retrospect, should have been listened to and whose advice should have been heeded. I would not spit on these generals. I would spit on those who defied them in order to wage war on Iraq regardless of the consequences, the loss of our soldiers’ lives, and the cost to our nations’ moral high-ground and financial solvency.

--I will not be softened by the wishful thinking of pacifists who chose reassurance over reality.

This statement makes no sense. Again, since you seem to be overcome by emotion, I’ll chalk it up to that.

--I will embrace the wise words of Prime Minister Tony Blair who told the Labor Party conference, "They have no moral inhibition on the slaughter of the innocent. If they could have murdered not 7,000 but 70,000, does anyone doubt they would have done so and rejoiced in it?

I do not. What I wonder is why you do not focus on our country’s failure to prevent these attacks.

- There is no compromise possible with such people, no meeting of minds, no point of understanding with such terror. Just a choice: defeat it or be defeated by it. And defeat it we must!"

Wiser people have pointed out that with proactive attention to threats, you can defuse them before they’re effective. We did not do that. You should be asking why.


- I will force myself to:
-hear the weeping
-feel the helplessness
-imagine the terror
-sense the panic
-smell the burning flesh
- experience the loss
- remember the hatred.

Are you speaking of only the weeping, helplessness, terror, panic, burning flesh, and loss experienced by Americans? Or does this empathy also go to your fellow man, such as the innocent civilians in Iraq, who are being occupied and terrorized by our country? And keep in mind that the war profits for this occupation are being funded by our children and grandchildren.

- We have no choice. Living without liberty is not living.

Do you support the USA PATRIOT Act? How about the Victory Act (nee Patriot Act II)?

Once again, this is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. I told my husband that the DU folks would help us out. I knew you guys wouldn't disappoint us.

My distinct pleasure, in fact. :)

The language puts on a courageous front, but it's cowardly to the bone.

I will force myself to:
-hear the weeping
-feel the helplessness
-imagine the terror
-sense the panic
-smell the burning flesh
- experience the loss
- remember the hatred.


Whelp...looks like the terrorists won.

My response:

You've basically rejected any notion of hope and healing and have let your hatred and fear overcome you. You welcome this. it is the dark side of the human psyche, and when unbalanced, it is a poison that feeds upon itself. It is not healthy to wallow in your hatred - not only of the terrorists, but your fellow Americans who are working for peace and justice -- and freedom from this fear you imprison yourself with. Your feelings do not honestly address the full reality of the situation. You have only embraced the darker aspects of this tragedy, and have not seen the opportunity that arises from the crisis: An opportunity to bring the world together to fight against the evil that has inflicted itself upon us, and make us stronger in the process.

You have every right to be afraid. You have every right to hate the terrorists for what they've done. But you cannot put blinders on and simply ignore the rest of the story:

--You cannot demonize or simply ignore the rest of the nation and the world who will not let themselves be ruled by fear, hatred and violence. We are urging the Bush Administration to courageously lead by example, and work toward realistic solutions to global problems.
--You cannot ignore the cycle of hatred and revenge that has been set in motion, and the need to rise above it in order to end it. We must be the ones to take the first step. That's what strong & fearless leaders do.
--You cannot widen the gap that is dividing our country. We may never understand each other. Individuals deal with tragedy in their own way. But we MUST respect each other or, we will destroy ourselves before any outside force does it for us.

Evans speaks for a lot of people in his anger over September 11th. We mourn the victims of that attack. But Evans is incorrect when he assigns blame to one group of Americans over another. Bush exploited September 11th to push through policies that had been planned years before.

There's no question that Evans sees liberals as the bad guys. In other pieces he's written, he identifies left-leaning celebrities and implies that these people are traitors. Like John Ashcroft, he's not really committed to the American values embodied in the Bill of Rights.

In taking advantage of September 11th, the right wing has made common cause with the enemies of our people. They impugn the patriotism of people who disagree with them. Ed Evans is so extreme he thinks it's patriotic to refuse to watch professional sports on television:

It really is time we take our country back. We need to refuse to go watch multimillionaires play football and baseball, complaining all the way that they don't get what they deserve. ... We really need to be Americans again, full of hope for the future and in control of our destiny. The world needs us to be Americans. For everyone else, I repeat: "Delta's ready when you are."

http://braden.weblogs.com/military/marineDied

Edit: added missing word