CSPAN Dean greeted with confederate flag in NH???

Two references to 'independant' students presenting confederate flags at a Dean rally. Details anyone?

and young campus conservatives brown-shirts are hardly 'independant'...

how else could i denote suspicion ?

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Are you claiming that there should have been a more intelligent response to, "What, are you gonna cry?"

WHat's your point, exactly?

And for God's sake, I RESPONDED TO #6

if you really want to see what an intelligent response would have referred to.

on edit: You didn't respond to post#6. You responded to #15.

i'm just so accustomed to being attacked for my opinions on Dean that i assumed you were aiming at me. i should know better to assume.

my sincere apologies for thinking your post was an attack on me.

Tensions are high. Thanks very much for the apology. It wasn't even necessary.

the sort of mature and intelligent response we've come to expect from some Dean supporters.

Meanwhile, there's a real issue here that's related to what a lot of non-dean supporters have repeatedly tried to discuss: How Dean's tendency for intemperate and poorly-thought out statements can be used by the Repukes to discredit him.

were actually Dean supporters? :shrug:

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don't deal with the issue.
attack the messabger
deflect the issue
whine about haters

this is not going to go away and he'd better figure out a way to deal with it.

Do like Dean did and ignore it. We've beat this dead horse here on DU already.

If not this issue, it'll be something else.

If not Dean, it'll be someone else.

Do you think your candidate is teflon and the Kampus Konservatives won't do something similar?

By the way, the article is linked in LBN, and yes, it was bound to be used by the right. So what? It'll backfire. 9 wingers carrying Confed Flags on campus? I hope the black student union kicks their pathetic pampered asses...

What's the big deal? Someone showed a C flag at a Dean rally. It could have been repukes, it could have been greens, it could have been Kerry and Clark supporters. Bottom line is that it WASN'T Dean supporters, and it WASN'T appropriate.

What, are they going to throw blood on him next? Childish BS is what this is.

The only people who still don't get it are officially STUPID. Who wants to join?

When the Republicans trot out Powell and Rice to attack Dean's "racially divisive" campaign, Deanites will blame anyone and everyone besides Dean for allowing the GOP to paint us as neo-Dixiecrats. That's stupid.

Bush counts on the red-neck vote- except he wants to DIVIDE Blacks and whites.

Do you really think Rove is stupid enough to come out and condemn his base?

It was valiant of Dean to think he could bridge the gap in the South- I know he is not racist, despite what the media says.

Dean is not, and has never been my #1 choice- but he is a GOOD man...

WRT the Dean's flag remark, none of the candidates, and few individuals, are saying that Dean is a racist or a bigot. Even Sharpton explicitely stated that he didn't think Dean was a racist.

The issue is how Dean's irresponsible comment can and will be used against him.

Trust me, I'm from GA, and hell will freeze over before a Republican will criticise the Confederate Flag...

I really cant see the Pukes taking this one too far- EVERYONE who was not born yesterday knows that those folks are traditional Bush supporters...

Of course Republicans won't criticize the Confederate flag. At least, they won't criticize AND identify themselves as Republican. They'll lie like they always do, and say they're "independents"

I really cant see the Pukes taking this one too far- EVERYONE who was not born yesterday knows that those folks are traditional Bush supporters

Yes and no. I don't think this one will go too far, but every bit hurts, and Dean holds the promise of future irresponsible remarks. However, I don't think "everyone" knows about this scam. Most people get their news from TV and most people pay very little attention to the detail until just a few days before the election. I don't think it's a good idea for candidates to ignore potential dangers, yet I don't see Dean or any of his supporters acknowledging that Dean might have a problem.

by accusing Dean of being hypocritical, they will say his party is the one that wants to ban the CF and now Dean is pandering to just that group only to get their vote, they'll point to his denial of the flag and point out that he only wants their vote and cares nothing for their core moral and christian values or beliefs. If he's willing to lie about what his party stands for, he'll lie about everything.

Of course this will only happen when and if he gets the nom. Right now they want him nominated, then the crap will fly fast and furious.



Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

The republican party GAVE OUT confederate flags in NC. They're not going to abandon it.

The argument that this issue and others will become talking points for Rove are just ridiculous. Can we really imagine Republican campaign ads that say:

"Howard Dean sided with Newt Gingrich to cut Medicare."

"Howard Dean supports the Confederate Flag."

"Howard Dean gets an 'A' rating from the NRA"

"Howard Dean is a fiscal conservative"

Tyring to stick these on Dean would work against the republicans and are about as likely as ads from the Sierra Club touting Bush's Clean Skies innitiative.

Seeing as how the Repukes are sending out "independents" to make this message, why do you think the RNC will put this into ads. It seems obvious that they are going to use proxies to send this message in order to maintain plausible deniability to Bush* and the RNC. It's an "astro-turf" tactic.

The repugs will vote for him too! It'll be a landslide! :)

The only people who might be affected by this are those Dems and independents who don't pay attention to the details and who might vote Dem but won't if they think the Dem is supported by racists.

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The GOP can't paint us as neoDixiecrats. BEcause we're not.

But here comes the barrage of (FAKE) concern over the implications of this. Some kids carry a C flag and suddenly Dean's campaign is over.

What is the goal of this discussion anyway? No links provided. No source for the story. Just a chance for antiDean crowds to express their (FAKE) concern and the Dean supporters to either lash out at the continued silliness or shrug and say "Big Deal".

Let them trot out Powell and Rice. By the time they do, they'll look like idiots this story will be so old. LET THEM. I don't know why you folks spend so much time quivering in fear over what the republicans are going to do. Their going to do their worst, and they don't need candidate assistance. If Dean doesn't give them something, they'll just put his picture next to Saddam. What's worse?

The thing is, WE'RE RIGHT. We on the left have solid evidence that the working class in this country who have voted republican have NOTHING to show for it. We on the left in NC have solid evidence that we lost out on Bush's tax cuts. We're WORSE off. And it can be PROVEN.

And you're worried about his flag comments. Once again, your cynicism about the intelligence and awareness of Americans disgusts me.

People have repeatedly pointed out how Dean's tendency for saying things that bite him back afterwards might be used by the Repukes. Many of Dean's supporters responded by ignoring it and claiming it was a non-issue made up by politically motivated Dean-haters. Now, we're seeing it happening, and your response is just more of the same "No one cares. Ignore it. Dean is right"

Let them trot out Powell and Rice. By the time they do, they'll look like idiots this story will be so old. LET THEM

Another stupid thing is to say that right after someone has pointed out that they are NOT trotting out Powell and Rice. They are going to use "independent" individuals, so it can't be traced to the RNC and Bush*. They are going to make Dean appear to be the sort of man who attracts racists.


And you're worried about his flag comments. Once again, your cynicism about the intelligence and awareness of Americans disgusts me

50,000,000 Americans voted for Bush* in 2000.

Maybe I'm not getting it, but show me how Dean's comments are going to be used by the republicans.

about how those "independents" gave Dean a Confederate flag. After it happens a few more times, it will be misportrayed as a grassroots movement of racists who are attracted to Dean.

Where? Where's the link? Have you read "the story."

And furthermore, I just want to make clear, are you seriously suggesting that the media or Rove or the boogey man are going to start reporting that racists are attracted to Dean? That seems to be your implication, but I'd just like to make sure.

And just because it's not linked means nothing. It's still a story, and it does have a citation. It was on CSPAN.

Are you trying to argue that it didn't happen?

And furthermore, I just want to make clear, are you seriously suggesting that the media or Rove or the boogey man are going to start reporting that racists are attracted to Dean? That seems to be your implication, but I'd just like to make sure.

No. I am suggesting that the media will start reporting (actually, if this story is true, it's already started) that "independents" are giving Confederate flags to Dean. It will be left to people to decide what that means. The implication will be that southerners who like the confederate flag (read "racists") like Dean. Rove will keep silent in order to maintain plausible deniability and the perception that these independents represent a grass-roots movement.

You asked me if I had "read the story" not a post. I guess you haven't read the story either. Typical inattention to specifics.

Okay, so now your concern is that the media is going to start reporting that "inepedendents" are giving confederate flags to Dean. I see. Do you think he'll accept them? What will be the effect of the story if he refuses to accept a confederate falg? Won't that be a postitive for Dean?

I don't understand why some people on DU try to argue the impossible ad infinitum instead of keeping discissions within the realm of reason.

Stories aren't limited to what's in the newspapers or on the Internet.

Okay, so now your concern is that the media is going to start reporting that "inepedendents" are giving confederate flags to Dean. I see. Do you think he'll accept them? What will be the effect of the story if he refuses to accept a confederate falg? Won't that be a postitive for Dean?

No, it will be portrayed as Dean spurning the support of the people he is supposedly trying to appeal to.

I don't understand why some people on DU try to argue the impossible ad infinitum instead of keeping discissions within the realm of reason

And I don't understand why some people on DU ignore an issue and deny it's a problem at all even while it's occurring. It's so easy to say "that's outside the realm of reason", but that's just an opinion. Just like you, I have an opinion. It's just not the same one. Instead of discussing our differences, you choose to dismiss them as irrational.

Hint: Dismissing arguments rarely leads to silence from the other side. That might explain your "ad infinitum" perception.

Stories aren't limited to what's in the newspapers or on the Internet.

No, you are right. I have several in my head as I write this.

No, it will be portrayed as Dean spurning the support of the people he is supposedly trying to appeal to.

Watch and learn. You'll see how it gets portrayed.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, puke,

No. Some people just have enough sense to understand when an "issue" becomes a non-issue.

No, you are right. I have several in my head as I write this.

Are you arguing that this story is not true, or are you just subtly impying that?

Watch and learn. You'll see how it gets portrayed.

Are you arguing that I can't speculate and discuss, ot are you just subtly implying that?

No. Some people just have enough sense to understand when an "issue" becomes a non-issue.

More of the "not an issue" denial.

"I invented the Internet", "fundraising at a Buddhist temple", "Ozone Man", "Clinton's penis", "Vince Foster's murder"

And you still want to argue that these stories are "not an issue". "Ignore them"

Once again, we have engaged in a discussion that has diminished to the point of the absurd. Once again, I'll just have to leave it with the understanding that we have a disagreement. Time will tell on this issue.

I had no idea we had that many eligible voters in the US.

So THAT'S why I have you on ignore.

I typed in 50,0000,000 which is obviously a typo. But it's revealing how you chose to fixate on a typo, instead of defending the intelligence of those fifty million who voted for Bush*. As usual, you chose to attack a poster instead of addressing the issue, which you prefer to portray as "not an issue. Ignore"

Well, that is, I do not support him as my 1st choice. But I like the man alot, and its IDIOTIC for us to bash a guy who just might be our man in 2004...

Your post crystalizes my thoughts exactly-

Look people- Bush/media is going to BASH DEMS no matter what- if the flag-flap never happened, they would have INVENTED IT or somthing like it.

We need to stop worrying about how Bush/media is going to be "mean to us" and start kicking some ass- Like MEAN DEAN and Gen Clark do!!!

That knows what's up!

Anyone who thinks that ANY candidate will be immune to the right wing propaganda machine is in trouble. Anyone who talks about how FRIGHTENED they are about it is in BIG trouble. I urge everyone to get ready for it. Get your pens ready for some LTTE's. Get your phones ready for some talk radio. We can make the media less relevant, WE HAVE TO.

It's about the greater probability that a smear will stick if it's based on something that actually happened (even if the conclusion is a farce) than if the smear had no factual basis.

We can make the media less relevant, WE HAVE TO

I really hope you're not counting on making the media less relevant in the next 12 months.

or else list for me the names of politicans who won on the 'mean' ticket.

I don't think it's wise to assume that these students, and the people who may have put them up to it, had them do this because they thought it was a futile effort.

The only people who still don't get it are officially STUPID. Who wants to join?

The majority of Americans have a below-average IQ and they get their news from TV. Do you want to just assume that those people will have enough knowledge to realize that this was a setup? Will Dean's ignoring it, as someone has suggested, lead those people to the right conclusion?

I have my doubts

You know damn well he isnt.

He wants to bridge the gap between "red necks" and Southern blacks.

I TOTALLY relate to waht he meant, and I think most voters know he is not a racist.

For one thing, with the exception of few individuals with extreme views, no one is calling Dean a racist. Bush* isn't, the Repukes aren't, the Dems aren't, and we on DU aren't. Not even those of us who don't like Dean.

For another, nearly all of us agree with Dean's basic point that we need to reach out to those Southerners who really should be voting Dem (based on economic issues) but aren't.

So the point isn't about Dean's being a racist. It's how the Repukes are going to use Dean's careless and irresponsible remarks to misportray him to various groups.

I TOTALLY relate to waht he meant, and I think most voters know he is not a racist.

Most people don't know who Howard Dean is.

Then what the fuck is it about??? Talk about strawmen.

Who said "This is NOT about racism"? I certainly didn't. I (and a whole lot of others) said "Dean is not a racist". I did NOT say it has nothing to do with racism.

He makes mistakes that somehow manage to make him appear both condescending and remarkably out of touch with the feelings of the people who should be his base.

he stands on top. But not because people are willing to look past his mistakes, but rather because everyone is stupid.

The only thing Dean is "standing on top" of are polls in the mid-teens. Most people don't even know who Dean is.

We might actually win in '04.

But I suppose that's not in line with your agenda, is it?

anything but acknowledge the problem

You appear to be the number one practioner of the tactics you ascribe to Dean supporters. Congratulations!

...the same people who fund Greens to run in barely held Democrat areas...

For the next year we will see confederate flags at Dean rallys.

Wonderful TV and print images, don't you think?

votes for Dean, he'll carry the south.

But the image will linger, linger. Black voters will get it, too.

...And you know what resonates with the DINO Dems down here about Dean?

He's got a great track record fiscally as Governor, he's super strong on healthcare and he's got an A+ rating from the NRA! (no lectures on guns please, you have your view, I have mine- so drop it)

Do you want us to keep losing? Keep ignoring voters that you could win over and you'll get your wish.

I don't see Dean getting a lot of conservative Southern votes. I think that Southerners often vote principles over pocketbook and Dean's stands on abortion and same-sex civil unions will hurt him here. On social issues, except for guns, Dean is a "Northeast liberal."

Dean is urging people to put theiur social differences aside.

You think that a traditionally social conservative won't put aside their view on abortion in exchange for a stable economy? Health Care? Education? I really don't know, but I do think that it is awfully early to write them off.

"Principles over Pocketbook'? How 'bout this for principle-

Bush* lies are responsible for the death and mutilation of thousands of our troops. I guarentee Bush's* lies will be on the mind of every Southern man who votes.

That Son-Of-Bitch Bush* better think twice about counting the South in his pocket with 400 dead Soldiers on his watch.

We have at least 6 military bases here in NC.

it shows black voters while mostly democratic and left leaning will not vote for someone just because of the party.

just because they won't vote for bush, it doesn't necessarily follow that they will vote for Dean. pictures of Dean and the stars and bars will not motivate black voters!

here in the South. Maybe a few years down the pike. There's a lot of bad feelings.

Dean is an outdoorsman who speaks for the working man- that's a universal plus here in the South.

And he has the right message. He is not disliked in the south.

And since the only reason they don't vote Democratic is that they don't like the Democrats' policies on race and inclusion, they're certainly going to want some changes in those policies in order to switch over.

So, what's Dean going to have to promise them to get them on board? And whose hide would that have to come out of?

Candidate Bashers are giggling with glee over this. But instead of being pissed off at how the discourse has been hijacked, they're going to harp on this AS IF they're the right wing themselves. They're going to express (FAKE) concern over this keeping Dean from getting elected. What they won't do is the RIGHT THING- Ignore it, admonish is, and keep the dialog on point.

And they'll faulot the Dean side for that, too.

at how this issue has been hijacked but my anger is at the man who set us up to get hijacked. the south is key. the appeal to working and poor southerners was key.. Dean's use of the confederate flag has blown the whole outreach into a great photo opt for every pubbie with 8 buchs to spend on the stars and bars.

Despite your gloom and doom post- Get over your geographical bias and remember Southerners are American's too.

i live in PA...you know...the place people call philly and pittsburgh with a whole lot of alabama in between? a state many people think is key in this deal.

and i am getting gloomy.

for 100 days we have had our gang out there everyday, bashing bush in front of every microphone. and what has happened? bush has slipped but just BARELY. and still beats any named dem. and the ecomomy appears to be turning around. and in about ten months bush will pull sadamn out of his ass and bingo!!!!

AND HE HASN'T EVEN STARTED CAMPAIGNING YET!

NOW.. what was the sub-text of each of the last three big debates?
what subject took up the most time in the lasr debate?
what subject took up the following three news cycles?
was it bushisanidiot? no, it was Dean's gaffs...

how many news cycles will we lose to future Dean gaffs? this isn't an isolated mispeak..not the first and odds are, not the last.

i swear i hear rove&co playing the bongos.

But none of the other candidates' gaffes get jumped on.

Well, I can't say NONE, but not the same number as Dean.

But my family lives in Schuyllkill Co, PA, and they are receptive to Dean.

Well we agree with one thing at least, I too hear Rove and Co. in the background...

WE'RE LUCKY TO HAVE A DEM GOV
the pubbies blew it with a shitty candidate. PA is is play , i fear.

a slew of relatives in Connellsville, PA...all FORMER democrats who left the party...some of 'em just don't vote, and some voted for Bush. One reason: GUNS. They're all retired, most of 'em union, and this is the one issue they vote on now. Whether or not any of you like it, understand it, or think it's crazy, is beside the point. .

And these folks are just hunters, they're NOT NRA crazies. Sh**, even my AUNTS carry concealed up there.

My family is from Spring Glen and Pitman, pretty much. Near the home of Yuengling.

ANyway, the gun issue is THE issue there. They have huge sandiwch boards out at election time: "Specter=Pro-Gun, Clinton=Anti-Gun" and stuff like that.

i'm fond of the black and tan

Seriously, so friggin what? And why is Dean the man who set us up, other than your obvious disdain for him?

He made the statement hundreds of times and no one got pissed off. He made the statement in front of minority audiences and got cheered. And now HE'S the man who set us up to get hijacked. Not the people who initially made a big deal out of this. Edwards, Sharpton, the whole Mountain from a Molehill contingent. Their gross misinterpretation of something Dean had repeated dozens upon dozens of times isignored, and Dean is somehow to blame for other people's reactions. I can't wait for the era of personal responsibility to begin.

The typical Dean response is "no problem. so what. ignore"

And why is Dean the man who set us up, other than your obvious disdain for him?

Because Dean is the man who foolishly and irresponsibly injected the Confederate flag into a discussion about why economic policy should make white Southern males vote Dem.

He made the statement hundreds of times and no one got pissed off.

So what? If a bank robber gets away the first 10 times, do we have to let him off the 11th time?

And now HE'S the man who set us up to get hijacked

Because he's the man who foolishly used a racist symbol in an inappropriate and irresponsible manner. Even Dean admits it was "clumsy"

I can't wait for the era of personal responsibility to begin.

Yes, it's terrible the way Deanies argue that Dean made a mistake, but he's not responsible for any of the consequences.

Really, this is getting old.

You want to support your candidate- I'll listen- you want to bash Dean? ...take a walk.

When people accuse Deanies of "Kerry-bashing" they respond "It's fact so it's not bashing"

But any talk about Dean's "clumsy" remarks is called "Dean-bashing" even though it's FACT that Dean said it, it's a FACT that it was "clumsy" (even Dean says so) , and as this story shows, it's a FACT that the Repukes are going to exploit it

...Bash Dean... breathe...Bash Dean... breathe...Bash Dean... breathe...Bash Dean... breathe...Bash Dean... breathe...Bash Dean... breathe...Bash Dean... breathe

Ad Nauseum

"Dean-bashing. not an issue. ignore it. Dean-bashing. not an issue. ignore it. Dean-bashing. not an issue. ignore it. Dean-bashing. not an issue. ignore it. Dean-bashing. not an issue. ignore it. Dean-bashing. not an issue. ignore it. Dean-bashing. not an issue. ignore it. Dean-bashing. not an issue. ignore it. ....."

Dean BASHER'S. not an issue. ignore THEM.

You want to bash Dem's there, Zell Miller? Knock yourself out- but you'll have a more receptive audience over at FreaKKK RepubliKKK.

Amen to that sentiment. I've never seen a bunch of so called "liberals" want D's to lose this badly.

If I only had a nickel...

Red Herrings' and straw-grasping critics who have to manufacture an issue in order to tear down a candidate.

After the Clinton years, personally- I'm on to this kind of nonsense.

After the Clinton years, personally- I'm on to this kind of nonsense

After the Clinton years, it's hard to argue that nonsense like this has NO effect, and that it's safe for a candidate to ignore it, as many Dean supporters have suggested.

Really, these attacks on Dean, the clear fronte runner, have become all too regular to be considered anything more than a sad passtime.

If Deans desire to try and build a bridge to all Americans is too much for you- I'd love to hear your plan for turning this republiKKKan nightmare around. But be warned- I'd likea reality based assessment- not some pie in the sky, 'I wish my candidate would win' dream scenario.

So far Dean has a plan, motivated support and true momentum- what can you offer other than criticism?

and "pretend that calling the critic 'myopic' will distract from the fact that this is the only argument we have"

Go ahead, you've proven my point for me- Bashing Dean is clearly a hobby for you- not a position based on an alternative view.

you think Dean is the best candidate. some of us don't agree.

what would you have use do? in the general election, do you think for even a millisecond that criticism of bush should be off the table?

HELL NO! this is too important to fight with one hand tied behind our backs. equally important to the election in novenber is the issue of who we put our hopes in, our efforts behind...stake our future on!

so why in the world would you think that this battle should be waged with on hand tied behing our backs either!

I reject, totally, the claim that this is "BASHING". bashing is calling a candidate "snot nose" and "poopyhead" just to mention a couple more memorable inanities. bashing is lying about a candidate.
bashing is distorting his record. criticism of a candidate is criticism....period and no ammount of crying BASHER BASHER or HATER HATER or FREEPER FREEPER is going to stop me from fighting this battle with both hands.

i "hosted" the thread the day Dean broke his first fundraising "bat"

but there was a scene in a bus that started turning me. a reporter was setting him up for a gotcha regarding his previous staement in support of raising the retirement age. she asked "you have previously stated yada yada yada. his reply was "no i didn't" she attempted to refresh his memory with the background of the statement and he replied AGAIN "no i didn't. i didn't say that" she sayd "governer, i have the statement here if you'd like to review it"

he takes the paper, starts reading it, and then sputters and spurts till i left the room to get a stiff drink. since then he has made many more statements that make me want a drink. not because anyone of them were killers but because he keeps doing it!!!!

remember the crack he mad about 'they can't keep me out fof the country club (i forget the exact words) three days after his kid got in trouble.

when someone pointed out to him what a dumb thing that was to say , he said ON FREAKIN CAMERA "why do i do things like that"

since that day i have been asking that question with a folow up.

WHEN IS HE GOING TO STOP DOING THAT? now i'm changing the question.

can we survive his doing that since it seem obvious that he's not going to stop.

where I weigh in on the question. I think yes, we can survive just fine.

I think yes, we can survive just fine.

I'm convinced!

.

What issue might that be addressing?

More than any, even in the repuke party. Is your hate for Dean so deep that you are happily willing to cut off your nose to spite your face?

and i'm not the producer of 'inside politics' on CNN.

the issue i want to address is why does he do things like that
and when will he stop.

go figure. My guess is a serious lack of confidence in the man.

The big question is - will you and the other Deanophobes amp up the hate if and when Dr. Dean does get the nomination?

That will be a telling moment, won't it.

Dean opened his big stupid mouth and invited the confusion.

Blame the messenger, not the message.

And look at what all of your SMART LITTLE fingers managed to eke out.

Invited the confusion. Again, BIG DEAL. The only ones making a big deal out of this are the MEDIA (who we're supposed to be suspicious of unless they aid us in our candidate bashing, apparently) and the Dean Critics, spewing their (FAKE) concern.

Is there anyone who you guys just refuse to side with in your bashing? You seem to be palling up with just about every filth spewer and hate monger out there in your efforts.

After talking about "personal responsibility", hep is back to absolving Dean of his responsibility for making such a "clumsy" (Dean's word) remark.

The only ones making a big deal out of this are the MEDIA

Yes, and we all know it's safe to "ignore them" because no one cares what the media says. It's not like they have an effect on voters.

constantly?

Rather than cherry pick and parse his every word and gesture, why don't you look for the message in the "madness" you so perceive?

You dissect Dean more than you do Bush. Why is that?

more inconsequential reasons than this.

You actually said there might be better men than Dean? This will not play well among a certain segment that views Dean not only on a pedestal, but on a divine pedestal.

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another example of ignoring the point (better men have lost votes over less) in order to attack a poster

You can take that to the bank. There are far superior candidates running besides Dean, Kerry is just one example.

job capturing hearts and minds. I mean, look at all of the fair minded, civil suppotrers he has here.

It's just funny, you know. Even if Dean supporters think better of replying to flame bait and unfounded criticism, one of the Dean bashers jumps in and speaks for us, saying how WE'RE going to react. Real nice.

Do you really think that Dean, polling in the MID-TEENS, is doing "great"?

I mean, look at all of the fair minded, civil suppotrers he has here.

You mean those deleted posts weren't yours? I could have sworn they had your name before they were deleted by the mods

Party is the party of the people.

Just look at the delegates at the Dem. & Repuke National Conventions. That says it all.

Dean is going after the poor southern white vote because he can do something for them. Give them the health care coverage that they will NEVER see from the repukes. Holding a hard right southern white voting base based on Race, Guns, God, and gays has done nothing for the south and they know it.

This has nothing to do with Dean being for or against the confederate flag. That's a red herring the repukes are using.. They use it when they parade the flag around at Dean rallies making themselves look like childish "morans" for running with a false story.

We All Know Which Party is the party of the people.

Are you so sure those 50 million who voted for Bush* in 2000 agree with you?

This has nothing to do with Dean being for or against the confederate flag. That's a red herring the repukes are using.. They use it when they parade the flag around at Dean rallies making themselves look like childish "morans" for running with a false story

Did you ever consider the possibility that they do it because it works?

The common american who takes the time to listen to what the candidates have to say will be able to tell the difference between the obvious repuke hate machine spin, and what the truth is.

Dean said he wants to be the candidate for southern whites who drive pick up trucks with little confederate flag decals in their windows, because THEIR KIDS DON'T HAVE HEALTH CARE EITHER! The common theme is that americans are paying out the ass for health care due to repuke politics. Dean is saying that people who want health care need to jump on the Dean wagon (actually, most democratic candidates are talking about this same issue) regardless of what their views on race, guns, god, or gays are. Do you want affordable health care or not? That's the question. The confederate flag is the repuke red herring and Dean will make the repukes look like asses for deliberately taking his comments out of context.

It also works on Independents. And even if it only works on Repukes, Dean says he's trying to get their votes. If it works on them, then Dean WON'T get their votes.

t and not ask questions? do they watch fox news and buy all the spin? heh.. we're not gonna get their vote either way.

anyone who is brain dead enough to believe that dean is a racist because he said he wants poor southern whites to have healthcare, ISN'T PAYING ATTENTION. I don't care which party they are with.

if we are going to be afraid of repukes spinning everything the wrong way, THEN WHY IN THE HELL COMPETE WITH THEM AT ALL?! why don't we all just assimilate and vote repuke??

stick to your guns, Dean. YOU'RE Right! Don't forget it! Don't Give UP! Don't Give In!

for months i have been saying healthcare can be a winner issue for us.

dean has a good platform from which to speak.

but are we currently discussing heathcare?

was the article about his healthcare initiative?
were the cspan callers talking about his healthcare plans?

NO! it was about his mistakes.

the country is split 50/50. bush has more money that God.

NO ONE can say this won't be close. it's going to be the little things that bust us and Dean can't stop doing these 'LITTLE'things.

that take away from his message. I don't know how anyone could argue that this is A Good Thing.

I'm a Dean supporter (he's my #2 after Clark) but this is a worry that I have. If even 1/4th of the black vote doesn't turn out to vote - it would be a disaster.

This isn't going to hurt him. One person that I know was offended byut glad that he came out and apologized. Another person thought the comment was great, on point. Neither has stopped supporting Dean.

Though all of the black people I spoke to about this realize that Dean is not a racist, they tend to think his foolish remark is a sign that he doesn't "get" it. They know that a Bill Clinton, for example, would know better than to use the Confederate flag in that manner.

AWOL has them all beat.

AWOL "leads the nation in the execution of black fourth graders, third graders, second graders and black acting white children. He leads the nation in the execution of black retards, midgets, invalids, blind, deaf, overweight, pigeon toed, the flat footed, and the bowlegged. The only blacks he doesn’t execute are the ones that don’t live in Texas. And he promised that he is working on that. "

"On Wednesday, January 15, Martin Luther King's birthday, George W. Bush ordered White House lawyers to use all their energy, resources and experience to convince whatever members of the Supreme Court needed such convincing that the University of Michigan should not be permitted to factor an applicant's minority status into its admissions calculations, and neither should the University of Michigan-or, by extension, any other American university-have the option of ensuring ethnic diversity in its student body. Minority ethnic status, Bush said, shouldn't provide an academic advantage and educational institutions shouldn't have favored slots. Educational institutions, he has several times said, should rather offer "affirmative access," a vaporous phrase that seems to mean everybody is free to apply to whatever institution he or she wishes and institutions are under no obligation to do anything about anything. "

Sorry, there's no way the repukes are going to win any minority vote. Their policies say it all.

it's how many will vote....period.

the stars and bars flapping in a picture of Dean isn't likely to inspire.

is going to follow Dean for a long time. I know some thought it was put to rest last week, but I heard CNN Inside Politics did a segment on this story yesterday.

What I don't get is why some Dean supporters would complain when there were a lot of them saying it was a brilliant move by Dean, if it was then further stories of Dean and the confederate flag should help Dean.

All of the Dean critics think this is going to follow him around,m and all of the Dean fans think it won't. Hmmm. Smells like a pointless thread.

I thought Dean fans think that Dean is going to campaign for the votes of white southern males. Do those Dean fans really think Dean's going to be able to do that while the media is just going to forget about the remark?

You want to wear the flag issue like a mantel of power, even to your party's peril. This is the most obsessive case of self-destruction I have ever witnessed.

...just like Shelton's comments will follow Clark around and so on.

That's just how it goes.

Look, we know you guys don't want Dean as the Dem nominee,
but this flap is much ado about nothing. You could at least
be honest about what he was really saying.

but that doesn't mean that it won't help the Repukes. The "I invented the Internet" had even less of a factual basis, and it had an effect.

So, yes, let's just ignore the Repukes. It's not like they have a shot at winning. Everyone knows this is BS. Even the 50 million who voted for Bush* in 2000. There's no need to do anything. Victory is inevitable.

why are you so eager to perpetuate it?

Yep, it's me that handed Dean those flags. I impersonated TWO independents at the same time using my clone (Shhh! Don't tell anyone)

After all, it's not as if the Republicans are trying to perpetuate it. And even if they were trying, we all know the media won't fall for that.

Wanna buy a bridge?

Why are YOU so eager to perpetuate it? Why are you going along with the Republicans...why are you buying into what the people did today if you,as you admit above,agree it's much ado about nothing?

Why are you making the right-wing and media's job easier? Wouldn't it be better to defend the Dem than to go along with their arguments?

Why is Dean so eager to perpetuate this.Why is Dean making the right-wing and media's job easier? Wouldn't it be better to defend the Dem than to attack them like Rove wants?

I didn't ask why Dean does anything...I asked why YOU do?

Check out my exchange in this thread- bob and weave the whole time- bashing Dean is his hobby, don't waste your time...

ignore feature.

to get him to back up charges made against me....suprise suprise...no answer :shrug:

Got a link for that?

we all know what he meant. this issue isn't about what he meant.

it's about how he screws up trying to say what he means. if there was a built in advantage we had it was how inept bush is when talking off the cuff.
i see that advantage slipping away.

This guarantees that we will be diverted by this issue till nov '04. Just imagine, for example, Deanites get pissed off at the flag carrying slugs at a rally and violence insues. Then what will we be yelling at each other about ... while Bush runs away with the election?

Rove is going to tie us in knots over this. Dean must not get the nom.

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If you support Dean, then anyone against you is working for Rove. If you support Clark, then anyone against you is working for Rove. If you support the Greens, then you're working for Rove. &c.

It's amazing we don't all get along...we're all working for Rove, right?

I don't bring up OLD NEWS and act like it's the end of anyone's campaign. I don't express (FAKE) concern over electability. I'm dedicated to getting a D elected, and if it isn't Dean, then I don't care who it is. I'm voting D.

Lots of people here might as well work for Rove. They have the hate in their hearts, and it seeps out of every post. That's fine, they're entitled to take any position they want.

I'll support ANY ONE of the D's. I think ANY of them can beat Bush. It's up to us after all.

as this was on thursday. or in the newspapers today.

i'll stop mentioning it when it actually becomes old news.

did you get your check this week too Terwilliger? I cashed mine and picked up a life-size statue of Nader for my living room :D

All you people who Bash our good DEMS fucking DISGUST ME.

and Rove doesn't even have to pay him to do it.

It doesn't surprise me one bit. The only people who would do this are supporters of other candidates for the nomination. I'm sure Dean handled it well.

Only someone with their head up Dean's butt could blame another Dem campaign.

Only someone with their head up Dean's butt could blame another Dem campaign.

Why? People from other Dem campaigns have wrapped the C Flag around themselves every day since it happened. We're still talking about it, after all.

The flag presenters were misportrayed as Dems from other campaigns. blm pointed out that these people were known and are NOT Dems. Instead of addressing the relevant point, Hep again chooses to focus on a way to attack the critic, and ignores the criticism

The ads with Dean lying will be played almost a thousand times before the Nov. election. The whole party will be smeared right along with Dean and his OWN words dragging them down.

But, those of us who notice aren't supposed to CARE about the welfare of the party and ALL the candidates running lower on the ticket?

Your point was that other Dem candidates would wrap themselves in the C Flag in protest to Dean. I prove you wrong, and now you just make excuses.

Either you justify it or you don't. Make up your mind and get back to me.

Dean lied. It has been noted by Rove. The ads will start next summer.

You said that supporters of other candidates wouln't wrap themselves in the flag. But you do every single day on this forum. What do you have to say for yourself?

Only someone with their head up Dean's butt could blame another Dem campaign.

Considering no link was provided to more information, it's easy to blame another Dem campaign. You guys have been wrapping yourselves in the C flag since it became a controversy.

and was not miffed at its original use last February. Dean's last remark referenced the Con flag in the context of the NRA and guns and NOT the lie put forth by Dean that he was starting a discussion about race relations. Dean is the one who played the race card by LYING about the context of his remark in that interview with the Des Moines paper.

Your words:

Only someone with their head up Dean's butt could blame another Dem campaign.

Other dem campaigns have been aiming at Dean for months, especially their supporters here. And NONE of you have resisted the urge to bring up the C Flag to serve your own agendas. Blaming another Dem campaign fits perfectly when you use this board as a reference point. So you were wrong. And insulting. And hypocritical. And you won't admit it.

And I'd like for you to provide a link to the evidence you have that this was about the NRA, that in no way could he have made a more general statement.

.

When Dean was excusing himself for referring to the Con flag he said he made his remark to try to start a discussion about race relations. The article where he referenced the flag was an interview where Dean was defending his NRA support and gun control positions. Dean never brought up race relations at all in that interview.

If Dean wants to claim he did, let him produce the transcript of that interview. I dare him. I heard from from newsroom sources that the interview was ONLY about guns and never ONCE did Dean mention race relations.

Check out the article itself.

http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html


>>>>>
"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

(DEAN SAID FRIDAY IN NH. for all those saying his quote was from Feb.))

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.

Dean often touts his high rating from the NRA, which he attributes to Vermont's scant gun restrictions, low crime rate and tradition as a hunting mecca.
>>>>>>

All I see is the 3 billionth rehash of a dead issue.

while trying to start a discussion about race relations. He was NOT discussing race relations. He was defending an NRA stance and his position on gun contol. NOWHERE in the article is race relations mentioned.

Are you a mind reader now, and know Dr. Dean's every motive behind every comment?

Incredible. Call Kreskin!

If Dean's a straight talker, then why are his supporters trying to come up with what he meant to say about race relations in an interview about the NRA and gun control positions?

If he was a straight talker then there'd be no controversy at all.

Surely you can't be serious. You are bending like Bush's pretzel to make this into a huge issue that it isn't. Why, I'm still not sure.

Link please. You heard from newsroom sources!

Why am I not surprised? Anything to slime Dean. Incredible.

he claims, then why hasn't he produced a transcript of the interview to prove it?

I can't get the transcript, though I tried through newsroom connex, but, I'm sure Dean and his campaign could. But....they won't.

I'm desperately trying to follow your logic here. How does one wield a transcript that they do not HAVE as evidence of someone's lie?

I mean I've seen freepers do this type of mind reading, but why are you doing it? Is your hate for Dean so white hot that you can't think this logically through?

It was about GUNS and the NRA. NOWHERE does the article say Dean was discussing race relations.

It's only Deanies who suggest that the reporter left it out of the article. I inquired several days ago through someone who works in a newsroom with my spouse and they checked it out at the Des Moines Register. They were told the interview didn't include race relations.

Now, since Dean and his campaign have claimed that was the reason, then let's see a transcript.

The fact is it wasn't in the article, so that should be evidence enough. If Dean was telling the truth, his campaign would have produced the interview transcript to back them up immediately after, wouldn't they?

Incredible! Tell me, how did you develope these amazing ESP skills?

Dean is my number two choice. But I just don't think he can beat Bush. There is a ton of evidence that supports my feeling on this. To ignore it is stupid. To support Dean means that I have to rely on only the enthusiasm of his supporters to put him over the top. I'm not prepared to do that.

Here's an article about the flag. I'm a Southerner and I know Southern politics, and I'm telling you, Dean cannot win the South over Bush. And Merle Black the foremost expert on Southern politics agrees with me.

Remark hinders Dean in South

COLUMBIA (home of chaska - I'm so proud) - Chewing his barbecue under a Confederate flag at the Piggie Park restaurant, Greg Wilson figures he's just the kind of pickup-driving Southerner that Howard Dean wants to bring back to the Democratic Party.

But Mr. Wilson, a staunch Republican and Bush supporter, said that's not about to happen, especially in light of a Confederate flag remark that did nothing more than make him angry.

"It just goes to prove how much of an idiot he is," Mr. Wilson says. "He's vying for votes that he's probably not going to get anyway."

Across a state that's the site of the South's first presidential primary, Mr. Dean's plea "to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks" has fallen flat with the people he was trying to reach.

Under pressure for more than a week, Mr. Dean apologized Wednesday for the remark.

He said what he meant to say was that Southerners who display the symbol of the Confederacy should put down those flags and vote Democratic because everyone needs quality health care and jobs.

Among blacks, expected to make up about half the voters in the state's Feb. 3 primary, the response was even more negative. In a state in the midst of a lingering economic boycott over the Confederate flag that flies over the Statehouse grounds, some said Mr. Dean's remark could be seen as an attempt to reach out to a racist element.

"That's using old history to keep Americans divided," said 44-year-old Devin Reed. "We need to get away from that. We need to unite."

Though Mr. Dean is the front-runner in several key primary states, he polled only in the middle even before the Confederate flag controversy. Political observers said the fallout from his remark and belated apology should only make matters worse for him in the Palmetto State and elsewhere in the South.

"This is very stupid politics on Dean's part," said Emory University political science professor Merle Black. "He's targeted a group that is not going to vote for him and angered a group that is going to vote for him."

Isn't it a little odd that there are so many people here CONVINCED that THEIR guy is the ONLY guy who can beat Bush?

Saying there's a ton of evidence doesn't make it so. There's just as much info that the other candidates will lose.

if he can't beat Bush*????

:boring:

I'm convinced that none of the candidates are any good.We have war-mongers,racists,imps,race-baiters,pink-tutu wearers,Likud members....I tell ya,what a sorry lot we have to vote for!

some of them off. Of course if you mention them, your post gets deleted.

I think Babs Bush has about 10 usernames here. :nuke:

When it comes to these candidate bashers, there hasn't been a civil post between them.

so please stop pretending it's only supporters of other candidates.

but a few of mine were.

So please stop pretending...

Unlike lots of opinion articles by pundits posted here, this is an inquiry about a simple FACT. If you want to get angry, get angry at the confederate flag wavers, not the poster!

The Deanies are trained to "attack the critic, ignore the issue"

Not one Dean supporter has even tried to address the problems Dean's "clumsy" remarks create.

Trained by whom?

or is this just more dishonesty?

HoHO will STILL be wanting to be the candidate of the white guy in a pickup truck with a Confederate flag till the day he dies.

I think Dean can get over it; it's just too bad that he said it in the first place.

I think Dean may have to write off the south now. Which is O.K. since Gore proved we don't need it, but it seriously crimps that arguement for his electibility.

LOL!! You Deanophobes continue to amuse me to no end.

With this kind of "mortal wounding", Dean will have his own death watch in the Lincoln Bedroom!

DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN

smart-ass, Republican college students? So they bought Confederate flags? They're assholes. End of story.

they're not just "a few smart-ass, Republican college students?"

college students." I think that they are operatives from the campaign of one or more of the other Democrats running.

Not challenging your word, just have seen Republicans behind this sort of thing MANY times in the last 35 years. They are quite good at cheap and demeaning stunts. I really hope our guys are better than this.

JMO.

n/t

unless they are conservatives supporting another campaign: "The group of about nine students, whom fellow students and Dean campaign staffers identified as conservative activists"

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/317/region/Students_carry_Confederate_fla:.shtml

I realize Dean didn't anticipate this sort of reaction to his comment but it looks like he's got some tough seas ahead before he can ride this out.

Students call Dean posters a hoax- The Dartmouth Online

to get rid of Dean, I guess the repubs will just start sending 3 guys with Confederate flags to EVERY demo rally, and they'll ALL be seen as racists.

The only thing that made the confed flag remark a flap was the fratricidal way the other 8 candidates jumped on it trying to score their own points. How the FU** is it "controversial" for a Democrat to realize that without some of the Southern vote, he can't ge elected? Jesus, this country has gone WAY too friggin' PC if you can't even MENTION the Confederate flag w/out being branded as racist. Like the guys Dean was talking about don't exist. Get a life people.

How he worded it nothwithstanding, everyone knew wtf he meant.

apparently not.

The people who didn't are freepers and candidate bashers.

;)

It's a consensus! EVERY Anti-Dean poster is officially on record as believing this will follow him around! And every one of them use as their support a college prank.

And you might well ask yourself why you seek to give such a stupid poster more visibility.

Heheeh, shoot-thyself-in-the-foot. The eleventh commandment for some "democrats".

and I'm just shedding some light on events in Hanover.
But then this is all positive publicity for Dean so why not welcome it? Can't you see I'm working WITH you guys? :crazy:

the people that made it...

Couldn't that be considered false advertising...or is there some sort of copyright issue with using Dean's name...?

Just goes to show that the right wing thugs don't know when to quit...they are only making A$$E$ out of themselves...!

Let the backlash begin. :D

draws more attention to Dean. That's probably why they had a huge turnout at the rally at Dartmouth. Those people who posted the confederate flag posters ended up shooting themselves in the foot because Dean sure as hell didn't sound like a racist at that rally when he talked about his education initiative.......

:eyes:

:nopity:

:nopity:

:kick:

Dean continues to draw ever larger crowds of supporters. This must drive the DeanHaterz absolutely nuts.

Do you think that "Deanophobia" might go down in the psychology texts next to the rightwing "Clintonphobia" in years to come? I think a compelling case can be made for it.