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:yourock: Your guy is great, too, and should he get the nomination, he'll have my full support.

Your brand of maturity and civility stands out around here.

And I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. Dean's toughness is a big part of his appeal. We absolutely need a candidate who won't back down, because no matter who it is, there is going to be a vicious assault from the Bush camp, and we have to be able to fight back.

Dean IS electable. In fact I'm beginning to think that Dean might be a classic case of "be careful what you wish for..." for the Republicans and the lackey media. (The new Dean spin mantra be careful what you wish for. In addition, the following comments do nothing to convince me that Dean is indeed electable).

"Yes, his comments about the Confederate flag were badly worded - and he apologized the next day,..". (It took Dean more than one try to finally apologize. Shooting off his mouth and then having to backtrack and apologize seems to be a habit for Dean. This will really work well when trying to work with our allies and trying to get anything done in Congress).

"He has what it takes to face Mr. "I don't give a fuck" himself, George Bush." (Bush unlike Dean is not an in your face I don't give a fuck.... Dean's in your face nastiness might attract some people but for many people that type of behavior is a total turnoff, and will make Bush look presidential in comparision).

Granted, Kerry and Clark have proven their courage in battle, but Dean's backbone is his pride, and his style of in-your-face pride is something Democrats could use at a time when Bush has claimed pride and righteousness as his exclusive domain. (What you see as pride, many others see as arrogance. It's going to be hard for Dean to claim righteousness when Rove is through exposing Dean's many lies and deceptions. People will be faced once again with voting for the lesser of two evils. Clark has a spine of steel as shown by his prior dealings with the Pentagon and can take on Bush without reducing the whole political process into a Jerry Springer show.)

And then there's the fundraising issue: 2 million supporters in a general election each donating $100...do the math. (Where are these 2 million supporters? In addition, Bush is so disliked, I'm sure there will be plenty of people to donate to whoever the nominee is (if they think he has a chance of beating Bush). Plus, with Dean as the nominee I believe that many people will view 2004 as a write-off and put there money in local races, trying to hold ground there).

My days of saying that Dean can't beat Bush are officially over. The guy has something in him that inspires people, and if you combine that with his innate self-confidence and conviction, he could very well be a winner next year. (While Dean my inspire some, he completely turns-off many others. He’s a very a polarizing individual, which won’t play well in the general election. What you view as self-confidence I view as arrogance and cockiness. Regarding conviction – what conviction? The man changes his stated positions so much that it’s hard to determine what his is convictions are (other than promoting Howard Dean).

Dean has really taken a page out of the Rove playbook. You repeat something often enough the masses will start to believe it. Plus, I think the herd mentality has something to do with it (the media is anointing Dean the winner and people want to jump on his bandwagon).

Dean's not my first pick but I too think he can win.He's not perfect,none of the candidates are,but he's got something going on for sure!

I still have an open mind as far as candidate choices, but you do point to a very big reason why so many are enamored with Dean. You really do get the impression that he won't back down from a fight and many are searching for someone to stand up for them.

...but the fight will be with us, not the elites. If we look at his positions, he's Bush Lite. He stands for being elected, and for maintaining the status quo. Whoopee.

The bitter part is that Dean is getting credit for being tough when the only candidate who has actually proven he's tough and will stand up --for us, not them!--and who is for real, pro-working-people change is being marginalised.

What does that say about the political sophistication of DUers?

because he is spot-on on labor and working class issues but I would really, really like to know how he managed to erase a career-long history of anti-choice sentiments with nary a peep from the "liberals" on this board.

expressed strong dislike of Kucinich's anti-choice history. Personally, I'm one of those who will not forgive an anti-choice history, nor will I forgive a vote to take us to war. Especially when those who voted that way aren't apologizing for the vote. More to the point, the American public at large knew the excuses to go to war were fraudulent, and why all the Senators who voted to support Bush's illegal policy did so, despite thousands upon thousands of calls, letter, and emails begging them not to do so, I will never understand. Nor forget.

He didn't 'erase' it--everyone knows about it; he has never tried to explain it away or excuse it. I'll also note in passing that it was not the 'pro-life-from-conception-to-birth' position beloved of the rightwingers -- it was fully rounded.

He re-thought that position. It took him something between 12 months and 2 years to do. He offered a rationale for his shift. His current pro-Choice position fits with the rest of his pro-working-people politics in a way that his earlier position did not. He has both spoken out strongly in Congress and voted his change of heart. I think the majority of feminists see his evolution as genuine and principled. Those of us who've been around awhile are willing to believe that people can grow and change, and we're glad when that change is for the better.

Dennis's long, thoughtful process of change, and his willingness to offer an explanation for the shift, stands in complete contrast to, say, Dean's change of heart on the Iraq invasion and massacre. Dean underwent a suspiciously quick change of attitude, from pro during the Conason interview to anti the day after. And not only did he not explain that change, he even tries to deny that it ever took place. He apparently thinks his supporters are fools, willing to swallow and defend his story du jour, no matter how much it might contradict yesterday's. That's not an attractive characteristic in anyone, but particularly not in a political candidate.

Dean is for And can ACTUALLY DELIVER universal health care. He's as strong on labor as Kucinich. The diffence is, he is charismatic. He can rile up a crowd like nobody I have ever seen. He's angry, and he connects with the average voter. He will crush Bush in new hampshire unlike Al Gore. My apologies. Up to now I have never, not once attacked Kucinich but you just pissed me off badly.

Dean is not for universal healthcare. He is for a patchwork for-profit system that would keep the hands of the elites in our pockets, cost 88G more than what we're paying today, and still leave 10M people out in the cold. It's far more like the Clintons' failed plan than it is the real universal single-payer plans that Dennis, CMB, the 9000 physicians, and the Labor Party are proposing. Look at his website if you don't believe me.

He has no plans for real, substantive change in any sphere. It's all status quo. That's Bush Lite.

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to me the "status quo" means keeping things just the way they are. I can guarantee 100% "phase change" with President Dean. Gone gone GONE will be the inner sanctum "other White House" and "other Pentagon" as well as Halliburton and other sweetheart, officially sanctioned government deals, gone will be puppetmasters and shadow people. The CheapLaborcrats will be effectively squelched--even a repuke Congress will fall out of favor as people are inspired to stand up for what is honest and just--IMHO. We the people will prevail with a President Dean in charge.

I know that you want to believe that, but where in his record and his policy statements do you find support for it? When I look at his policy statements, I see the status quo:

He's not going to cut the obscene war-industry budget, now approaching the size of all other war budgets in the world combined.

He's not going to take the hands of the wealthy elites out of our pockets on healthcare. Instead he's actually planning to give them $88G MORE per year while still leaving 10M people without healthcare.

He's not going to end the drug war, which means that while, if he follows through, he's going to switch some money out of the prison industry, he's just going to funnel into the same elite pockets via the healthcare industry.

He says full civil rights for LGB people are a state issue...which is both the status quo and false (equal-treatment clause of the Fourteenth Amendment).

He says he's going to balance the budget. But on whose backs? Obviously not the wealthy elites' backs, so guess whose backs that leaves!

He's a status-quo-except-for-tweaks guy. By his own admission he's not a liberal, he's on record as bragging to Cato about his Republicanesque record and belief system, and he's on record as being willing to consider some VERY anti-Constitutional changes in the law and some anti-working-people changes in what fragments remain of the social safety net. He also seems happy to mislead people even about things that can be proven false (e.g., his lifelong opposition to the Iraq invasion and massacre)--a characteristic he appears to have in common with Smirk.

I honestly see no reason to believe he stands for any substantive changes apart from his own election. I'd be overjoyed to be shown to be wrong, but I don't intend to try holding my breath while waiting.

... that Dean is not the hardcore liberal that a lot of us would like to see. But he is a step in the right direction.

As for the real liberal candidate, unfortunately they don't seem to be able to run a campaign that fires up the electorate. It could be the person, or it could be that America is really just not ready for a real liberal just yet. Or both.

That's a great post, Pete.

:-)

It means a lot to have an able Kerry defender such as yourself see something in Dean that we also see.

:toast:

One of the things that has frustrated me about politicians as long as I remember is so many of them try never to say anything that could be construed as offensive to anyone, so they end up saying nothing of substance. Dean, though he's still a politician and has his faults, isn't quite like that.

I, too, will support whoever gets the nomination, and while Kerry isn't my first pick he isn't my last either.

Thanks for the positive comments, and like truthspeaker, while Kerry isn't my first pick, he definitely isn't my last.

Later.

RJS

I very much appreciate your post. For the record, I like both Kerry and Clark but every time I hear Dean speak or read something he's penned I am more drawn to him. Let's beat the fuckers!

to share your opinions. We should all be prepared to issue our individual mea culpas in the next few months.

Why? For making considered decisions to back a candidate in a primary, and then enthusiastically supporting the ultimate nominee against our common opponent?

Don't hold your breath for mine.

Dean is unelectable and a terrible candidate against Bush. That and that he is bush lite.

your Dean smear campaign has definitely taught us not to harbor hope of you joining the fight for the greater good should Dean win the nom.

No, in fact we know you and the other career Dean haterz will gladly take you ball and go home instead of helping defeat the fascist bunch in the WH.

Good lookin' out for the country. Not.

Julie

Except that all the stuff you listed only means and proves that he will run a good, tough campaign. None of that makes him any more or less "electable". He is still going up against a huge juggernaut that will be able to portray him as something he is not. Partly through misinformation and partly through his own words and the words of his supporters.

I totally hope I'm wrong, and I do believe that even if we lose there will be a great campaign run. But the positive things you posted which I agree with don't remove any of my reservations.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=709613

Good for you. I've seen your posts and you've been a solid Kerry supporter. It's hard to walk away from a candidate to another, but if you feel another candidate is the better choice, then do what you must.

One thing ... please, just don't become a deanper and flood this place with dean posts a day. Have some respect for the rest of us.

seeing as though THE VERY FIRST THING HE SAID WAS THIS-"I have been a Kerry supporter for some time now, and I will continue to be faithful to a candidate whose life has been devoted to progressive causes. Kerry would make an exceptional president, and I am proud to be a supporter."

Jeezuz,your bitterness is a sight to behold.

No mention by you of the CLark supporters who breathlessy post ( I won't name names) his every comment and gesture....selective outrage does not become you. :hi:

you say:

"please, just don't become a deanper and flood this place with dean posts a day. Have some respect for the rest of us."

That is too funny. Are you ignoring the never ceasing tantrums thrown in DU by the Deanophobes, attacking his every move or word and creating threads out those attacks?

Talk about the "robbed Cossak".....ROFL!

flood this borad with posts about him, it the Dean Haterz Club. But don't take my word for it, do a search.

Julie

thanks for your post.

People keep asking why we support Dean so staunchly. Here's why I do:

I have NEVER felt like I was EVER part of a certain person's candidacy. But with Dean I do. He wants my vote and he tells me and shows me that. I feel like I CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE! I feel like I'm part of the process. Plus I initially liked his attitude. One that wasn't afraid to say what he thought, even if the others didn't agree with him. He saw right away that alot of Dems were BEGGING for our leaders to listen to US. They did NOT. Dean did.

This is why I am a firm Dean backer despite the fact that I disagree with him ideologically on some issues... because he has given me the impression that he will be a tenacious opponent who understands what he is up against.

However, there is a minefield to cross before he's even nominated, never mind elected.

I have thought for months that ANY of the Dems could beat Bush. Now, I don't.

That 87 billion dollars for Iraq was the BEGINNING of Bush's election spending. That money will buy a semblance of success, no matter how fraudulent in reality. Bush will have a new "democratically elected" leader installed in Iraq months before their convention.

Dean's rhetoric also doesn't hold up to close scrutiny when you try to match it with his lengthy record of aligning with the GOP against the Dems in Vermont. Because he is getting away with it now, who thinks the media won't strip off that teflon they granted him when he's up against Bush?

I also saw a different story than you on that Confederate flag. Dean used a lie to cover up WHY he referred to the Con flag. He said he made his remark because he was starting a discussion about race relations. He referred to the Con flag while defending his NRA support and his gun control positions. NOWHERE in the interview with the Des Moines reporter does Dean talk about race relations.

So there he is on camera for a few days LYING about his reason for invoking the Con flag image. Why you think that Rove missed that point because Dean and his campaign spun so many here and in the press just baffles me. Rove will NOT be as forgiving. The operatives who are showing up at Dean's events now with Con flags are there to keep the issue alive and the Dems divided. Rove will use the LIE aspect, though, to smear the whole party.

Something along the lines of you admiring Pete's objectivity and respecting his views.

to ignore will be what bites the whole Dem party in the ass when Rove has Dean's lie ads playiing on heavy rotation for months.

You think most of the Dem party doesn't want Dean at the top of the ticket because he'll win? Try because internal polls in most states show he'll drag down entirs tickets in many of the competitive districts.

you think anyone who respects or considers respecting Dean are duped, stupid, brainwashed, or something else other than intelligent and objective. Your views are no secret. No allies. Anyone even on your side who shows objectivity is weak minded enough to FALL FOR Dean's dirty tricks and propaganda.

Repeating a fiction doesn't suddenly make it a fact. Show us, once and for all, where the "lie" is, and not just your opinion, but where and how it's a "lie".

Why do you have to try and derail an otherwise positive thread by spewing your attack memes?


"I also saw a different story than you on that Confederate flag. Dean used a lie to cover up WHY he referred to the Con flag. He said he made his remark because he was starting a discussion about race relations. He referred to the Con flag while defending his NRA support and his gun control positions. NOWHERE in the interview with the Des Moines reporter does Dean talk about race relations."

Nowhere in that flag quote did Dean mention guns or the NRA.

The author says in the piece in question that he interviewed Dean, and the flag quote says nothing about the NRA and was not a direct response to a question in the article. Read it, it was presented after a paraphrased statement about dems failing to reach out to the south.

Dean used the flag statement the same way he has used it over and over for the last 11 months... regarding raching out to working class southern whites. You are trying to claim that because the author focused mainly on gun issues that drive southern voters from the dem party, that therefore Dean's 11 month old flag statement is now suddenly about gun issues... which is obviously flawed logic.




"So there he is on camera for a few days LYING about his reason for invoking the Con flag image."

Say it over and over, it still won't make it true.


"Why you think that Rove missed that point because Dean and his campaign spun so many here and in the press just baffles me. Rove will NOT be as forgiving."

Yeah because we know how much ROve wants to run on issues like Dean reaching out to the south... LOL! Dean wants to reach out to the south and he's not anti-gun. Boy that's really going to hurt him with that southern swing vote.


"The operatives who are showing up at Dean's events now with Con flags are there to keep the issue alive and the Dems divided."

And how many of those "operatives" are from other candidate's campaigns?

"Rove will use the LIE aspect, though, to smear the whole party."

You sound so excited and hopeful... like you want to see Dean get hit with Kerry's dishonest misrepresentation of Dean's position.

And would NEVER hold up in a court of law. The facts are against you every step of the way.

The burden of proof is on you, counsellor. You claimed he lied. Show the interview and show where he lied. It is YOUR job to provide evidence to support your case.

Oh yeah, L&O!

http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

>>>>>>
"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.

Dean often touts his high rating from the NRA, which he attributes to Vermont's scant gun restrictions, low crime rate and tradition as a hunting mecca.
>>>>>>

Just because you post excerpts from the same article over and over again doesn't mean an argument in your favor will magically appear, blm.

Did you bother to see that Dean just proposed an education program funded by 7.1 billion dollars, which would get every college student 10k a year in assistance?

Yeah, isn't that wonderful? But hey don't let me stop you and the never ending cocktail party you throw over Dean's confederate flag comment. We wouldn't want to address anything of SUBSTANCE now, would we.

it was how he excused it afterwards which doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Ignore it if you wish, but those of us who have seen the GOP operatives at work over the last 3 or 4 decades know exactly how they pounce on mistakes that are made and clumsily covered up with a lie.

Democrats may easily get past it or pretend it doesn't matter, but Rove will make sure it DOES matter. And right when it will handicap the Democratic party the most.

Before we start, please stowe the pedantic rants about how "some of us" have seen the GOP shennanigans over the past few decades. I'm older than you think - I was a kid when JFK was assassinated, and I've been more involved in the workings of politics than you lamely assume.

Now to the heart of the matter. Are you posing as a caring Democrat who just wants to protect the potential nominee from falling victim to these ominous Rovish GOP election tactics? Do you really think we are that dumb? Your posts reek with a hatred toward Howard Dean that is matched only by what we routinely show toward one George W. Bush.

I suggest you focus and center again. You ire has become misguided. Remember who the "enemy" is.

my 87-year-old WWII veteran father said in a recent e-mail: "The reason I"m sticking with Dean is because he's not afraid to say what he thinks. He is very honest. He doesn't pull his punches. He doesn't "play politics." He's been deadset against going into Iraq right from the gitgo. He's head and shoulders above the other contenders in every way. I agree General Clark is a good man but Howard Dean has more appeal for the ordinary man in the street."

Dean would be the most feeble of the top column candidates to run vs Bush. If Dean is nominated, I hate to say it will most likely be another defeat in the Mondale-Dukakis proportion.

Although I understand the fear regarding Dean polling the way Mondale did in some respects, there are a couple of levels I really just don't get it. I just don't see an equivalence.
1 -- Mondale ran against Reagan. I just don't see Bush as equating with Reagan in terms of charisma. Bush charges people up through hate.
Reagan was a charmer whatever you thought of his politics.

2 -- I saw Mondale speak in person in 1978. Saw Dean in person a couple of months ago. Admittedly, it was a long time ago, but my memory is that Mondale did not have the same kind of fire back then that Dean does these days.
Both these points have to do with charisma and not issues, but I think that the factor of charisma in a presidential election can not be underestimated.

Looks to me like you rather enjoy saying it. You say it every day.

:yourock: Hep!

That's the second time you've made me laugh in this thread.

Everyone said Reagan couldn't win in 1980. He was compared to Goldwater. A little fella named George Bush (Sr) said that Reagan would lead the party to disaster.

In fact, the Carter campaign was praying for Reagan to get the nomination. In '92 Bush1 and his campaign were hoping Clinton would get the nod as well, thinking his "bimbo problem" would for sure seal Bush1's victory. So a message to Rove....be careful what you wish for (you little prick!)

And thanks, Pete -- welcome to the club :yourock:

I have my own favorite, but it won't be too hard to vote for Dean, Kerry, or Clark if they get the nomination.

I've said all along that all of our major candidates can beat Bush and Dean is right in there too. Thanks for your insight.

One of the discouraging things about this nomination process, on DU and in the larger sense, is that we spend time tearing down otehr Dem candidates to promote whoever we support.

IMO the nomination race ought to at least not try to be smearing otehr opponents who may end up with the nomination. That's going to be really embarassing later on when Unity Time comes.

As for Dean, I have mixed feelings, but I do think he'd be a great candidate for the reasons you stated. He says what's on his mind, and I think people are hungry for that.

He's got a dificult balancing act, because he is basically a moderate. The real test will be how he can walk that thin line between expressing the anger and frustration that many liberals feel, and reconciling that with his actual positions and approach, which is neither visionary nor scary to average people.

(I'm a neighbor of Vt. so am somewhat familiar with him before he entered this race. My impression was that was was basically a good governor, who has progressive instincts but in a pragmatic way. And governing a state like Vermont is more like dealing with local politcs and less like the highly partisan national atmosphere.)

and if he gets the nomination, I will be one of those two million who will pony up a hundred dollars even though I can't afford Christmas presents for my family. Some things are just too damn important. Getting rid of the Crooks who have Ransacked America is one of those things. I appreciate your words as they mean we can come together.

Yes, that refusal to apologize even surprised me (and I am a Dean supporter). You are so right-on here. Dean holds on steadfastly to what he believes in doesn't give a f*ck about whether it's the right thing politically to say. He could have come back w/ some political-speak and tap-danced his way out of that remark, but he didn't. That's Dean and he can take the "heat."

One reason that I like Dean is that he is a workhorse and will be prepared for the nasty tricks that the thugs plan to dump on him should be the nominee. Believe me, knowing this team (Trippi et al), they are probably already planning how to retaliate.

I feel one of the reasons Gore didn't win overwhelmly is that he allowed * and the thugs to diss him and not fight back. Like framing his as a "liar"..."he invented the Internet." When this type of crap is repeated over and over, people start believing it. Gee, Gore is one of the most honest people going.

Can you picture Dean in this type of situation? He would be on them like "funk on skunk" to dispell the lies. Dean is a stree-fighter and that's what we need.

Want to see some great stuff? go to howarddean.tv

Keep supporting your man and we'll keep supporting ours. May the best man win, for the good of the country. I'll happily support either one, but I'm in for Dean in the primary!

I have my own mea culpa regarding Senator Kerry. I have held a vicious grudge against him bordering on the obsessive regarding his IWR vote. I spent several weekends faxing, emailing, calling and begging a lot of congresscritters, but especially Senator Kerry prior to the vote. I sent him articles and op-eds by former Bush I henchmen criticizing the invasion idea. I spent a lot of time (along with tens of thousands of other Americans and DUers) pushing on Kerry precisely because he had been a Vietnam vet and spoke out against the insanity of that little imperialistic adventure. He should know, I thought, if anyone can see, that this is not just wrong, but will be a big mistake that can easily make things much worse than even a Saddam.

I got back pablum emails with the RW mantra of WMD, etc, with NO response or thought of the geo-political or moral consequences of the proposed action.

I'm not suggesting that he should have responded to me with some personal message. I'm saying that I have been furious that he would not address the serious issues surrounding the IRW vote, but spouted the RW idiots lines for the invasion, all in his quest for the WH, which I found disgusting.

I need to back off and ease up on him. He was in a tight spot, and I can hope that having gone through this, and having made such a terrible mistake that he has learned from it and that this will be an ADVANTAGE in the event he receives the nomination. I can only hope so.

Didn't mean for this to be a KerryBash, but maybe a small rant to vent my spleen so that I can look at him without being enraged, and to seriously consider his qualifications.

Anyway, I too think Dean can be elected and that he would make a damn fine centrist president, not beholden to corporate interests. (I'm sending him money).

If Kerry gets the nomination, I am working on my attitude, so that I won't just vote for him, but work to help him get elected.

Thanks for listening.

ABB 2004!

and I applaud you for sharing your change of view.

Thank you.

Julie

You said it very well. I saw it first on his Meet the Press appearance, which was supposed to have been a fiasco, but which actually sparked a huge week for Dean.

My problem with this has been that I don't see a lot of substance. I see this election as a huge opportunity to put some substance back in the elections. I'm going to struggle a little while longer against just looking at $$$$ and polls when deciding who to vote for.

very well written and reasoned. You hit the nail on the head, IMHO; Dean's solid backbone and fundraising abilities give him what it takes to win. I will vote for whomever runs against Bush* in the general election, but I'm throwing my support (and money) behind Dean in the primaries because I honestly believe he has the best chance of beating the BFEE. Other candidates have positions more in line with my own, but ousting Bush* is my biggest concern, and that's why I'm sticking with the good Doctor.

As much as i dislike what he has done over the last 3-4 years, I think Kerry is a good man and does have a great progressive record overall. I think he'd make a fine president.

If Kerry gets the nomination I will gladly support him.

Whoever wins the primary, they've got my vote...

You may not have been the only one to appreciate that moment in the debate.

My apolitical daughter called and told me she and her SO had watched. I got ready to explain *in detail* about the whole situation but she surprised me. Her take was that the attackers were mean and that Dean was *sincere*- she got the point he tried to make (made barely adequately, imo). I didn't even try to mess with her perception! lol

It's still early. Good luck.

to ride it right into the white house!

i'll support anyone who wins the dem nomination and so far, Lieberman has been the only candidate I've said a bad word about, but there's no stopping Dean, ladies and gentleman. The united states citizenry and people of the world want AWOL out of the white house. He's sooooooo gone!

while he does have something in him that inspires people- all the money and support in the world will not undo or erase from the record the dumb things Dean has said and done which will basically disqualify him in the eyes of the critical voters we need from the center.
Mainly, those are his statements about national defense.

Many thanks for that post. You're a giant among men!

George Bush, who is proud to admit that he doesn't "waste much time" soul searching?

Good post.

Bev Harris
http://www.blackboxvoting.org

but as you said, Dean's got that fire in his belly to take it to Bush and shaft him out of the White House ;-)

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This was very big of you to admit. You could have definitely kept this to yourself, but you stepped up to the plate and again played the gentleman. Kerry is truly very lucky to have a supporter of your caliber.

I have to admit, though, after some real questioning of my beliefs, I still see the handwriting on the wall. More than any other major candidate, the GOP has a throrough defense against Dean laid out. My biggest fear is that they will knock Dean out early and we will have to watch for months as the re-election closes in.

Between his "us vs. them" anti-war position - including blasting those that originally thought disarming Saddam was a good thing, and "supposing" the removal of Saddam and his sons was a good thing - his politically naive position on rescinding ALL of the tax cuts, his frequent flip flops on issues, his passage of civil unions, and the fact that Vermont's population is about 600,000 doesn't bode well.

I felt that Dean's performance at Rock The Vote was not "steely," but was instead clumsy and arrogant. He could have easily said that he had unfortunately truncated his flag stump speech in resonse to an NRA question, and that he was sorry there was a misunderstanding. Then he could have went on to actually answer the kid's question.

The guy was asking what Dean would do to help the black community, and Dean went on to talk about what he'd do to help poor whites. I'm sorry, but I was not impressed. I think it is difficult to hang yourself with 8 other candidates on the stage, but Dean did a pretty good job. When the field gets smaller, I am certain that Dean's personality will be more and more revealed.

I give Dean props for putting together one hell of a grassroots campaign. As a mobilizer, he is a force to be reckoned with. And he has a rock star quality to him. He gets people energized with his polarizing "take no prisoners" attitude and his self-help psychology ("you have the power").

I think that Kerry will have a harder time beating Dean than Bush. The IWR is a controversial point with many Democrats, and many Democrats are willing to forgive Dean's foreign policy naivete for at least giving voice to their opposition to the war. I seriously doubt that is the case in the general election.

Think of it this way, Dean may be the paper that covers Kerry's rock, but Bush will easily cut through with his scissors. I only hope we have to have enough sense to stick with the rock that will smash those scissors.

Pete, I have tremendous respect for your opinion, and I will continue to give it great consideration. But for now, we simply do not agree. I still think Dean is paper.

I also don't find Dean particularly articulate - I thought the exact same thing during his Rock the Vote performance - and I think the Republicans are just salivating to have him as our nominee.

I think he *might* win the general. *Might*. I too have the nightmare that he'll be 20 points behind after Labor Day and we'll have to watch a slow death spiral signaling the second Bush term.

But I think there's a stealth issue in this primary season that isn't as easy to define as the IWR, and that's the rock of the 2000 election around these guy's necks.

Did you see John Kerry out front and center demanding justice for our democratic system during the recount debacle? Dick Gephardt? Hell, Lieberman handed them the Thanksgiving stuffing with the military ballots.

The sad fact is that the "leaders" of the Democratic party laid down and died while our system of government was being openly stolen, while the Republicans were out shrieking in the streets, on the talk shows, and where ballots were being counted. They, not the Supreme Court, gave validity to the idea that Bush had 'won'. And our party said not a friggin' word.

I think that's why there's such an attraction to outsiders in the party, because we know that the 'insiders' were weak-kneed girl scouts during the most terrible debacle in our history. And that's why I think Dean attracts so much enthusiasm (although, it's fair to say, I don't remember seeing him standing up for the millions of Gore voters who were jobbed, either - but he was hardly a nationally recognized Democratic leader at the time).

Gore. He countered Trent Lott's horseshit while speaking up for Gore and democracy.

I'm pretty sure it was Larry King Live.

that protest from the CBC, eh? Oh wait! Nevermind....

Julie

I honestly don't recall seeing Kerry during the recount, but I'll take your word for it.

If he made one appearance on LKL, then good, I guess. Of course, one appearance doesn't really balance out the number of times we saw almost every Republican member of congress out there shrieking over the airwaves. I do remember several members of the Congressional Black Caucus making fairly consistent appearances to try to counteract the propaganda.

By the way, I'm a Kerry supporter. I just think that the recount is one reason that a lot of primary voters are turning to Dean.

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Although I still disagree with you about Dean's electability, I have to agree with this second statement:

"one of my major problems with Dean was that I thought he would be trounced by Bush...I no longer feel that way. All the points you make regarding Dean may be valid, but there is something about his candidacy that transcends flubs and flip-flops. He has qualities that resonate at a visceral level, and that translates into raw political power."

There really must be something said for getting people at a gut level. It's not an easy political gift to come by. Mere pandering can never accomplish this sense of connection Dean is capable of. There's a real quality to it.

Kerry goes more for the head than the gut. He doesn't use alot of applause lines - which I used to think was a mistake. But then I realized that he, too, had a rare gift of connecting with an audience. While they are not jumping up and down, I realized that Kerry's audiences sit quietly and raptly listen to what he has to say. From watching closely, the most common response I see from his audiences is a subtle, thoughtful nod. Not many politicians can ask that of an audience without all the bells and whistles of a normal political speech.

It is an interesting contrast of styles, and I can't take away Dean's ability to connect with people. It is a very important part of the process. I'm not sure what role it will ultimately play, but after listening to you, I will perhaps be a little more hesitant to sell Dean short.

wins.....Many of us who have been here have rooted for ALL the candidates as there are "pieces" of all of the candidates spread amongst us on DU. Each candidate expressing some small part of who we are and what we believe is the future of America.

A little bit here a little bit here of all 9 or 10 or whatever contenders.

In the end...we have to acknowledge that the candidates who got the "individual" contributions, were the ones who we figure are like us, the most or are the one we can "compromise" with to move us along.

I'm Dean and Kucinch...donated to both. But, I started out way back with an open mind. But I, and some others of us....kinda were older and so we saw who we thought might have problems in this race before others of you did.

I'm glad there were candidate wars....and still are....but when it get's down to it for some of us "hard core Dems" we know some history and we are so frustrated we gotta go with someone who gets the "little people" to pony up the "little" contributions. And, not knowing if you fit into our "long time Dem Experience" or not......

Glad you had the courage to change in midstream. You are going with your conscience or whatever...and I don't know if your or my choice is the best one.....but if it hits our "gut" then it can't be bad.

We need to wait it out....and it might not pan out in the short term....but might have reverberations somewhere in the future, for our kids, now, future, and grandkids.

We have taken a stand with the "little guys." And we are "going for broke" with it. Not, the most pragmatic of reasons, but then our "guts" are driving us in a different direction.....and that may be the most important in the long run...for our futures..

:-)'s

I've mentioned it to about twenty people and they all asked for information on where they should send their checks.

..."fire in the belly" instead displaying the robotic tendencies of Gephardt and Daschle.

I knew I liked you for some reason! (despite those former anti-Dean posts)

Thanks for this!!! and :yourock:

If Kerry doesn't get the nomination, you're gonna be one HELL of a Dean guy, I can already tell. He'll be lucky to have your support.

I love an honest person. I wish I could be as graceful as you.

n/t

And not just because I'm a Dean supporter!

Just joking. Anyway, what I mean is that we have a very reasoned, intellectually concise, clearly thought-out post, followed by equally reasoned DISCUSSION, with all sides expressing their views eloquently and without disrespect to anyone else. I have felt like there has been a lot of counterproductive rage in the air here over the last couple of weeks, and I'm relieved and grateful to see people with divergent views DISCUSSING the various sides without resorting to any of the childish bullshit that I've seen far too much of lately.

I am a Dean supporter, but as someone said already, I will not only vote for whoever gets the nomination but work to get them elected. All the other candidates would make formidable presidents, and I would be proud to vote for any of them. I know that we all want the same thing at the end of the day, and I truly believe that as long as we respect each other and keep our common goals in mind then we will have no problem accomodating all of our divergent views and uniting behind our eventual candidate.

Keep it up!

(months ago...where'd you go?...I was counting on you hounding the Pug Convention and reporting on the glorious aftermath...think you moved to *gasp* Cali), let me say this:

I have reservations about Dean. Is he what I think he is? Although I agree with a lot of what he's saying, will he really try to implement it? Is he just another politician whoring for a vote? The answer keeps coming back to the campaign. Usually a politician has to whore for votes by reducing it to the common dollar denominator(Corporations and well-heeled contributors). Being the first Dem candidate to forego matching funds and fund himself by small individual contributions, he might also be the first to get rid of his pimp or madame. It's almost too tantalizing not to give that reality a chance. I've been fooled before but who else is offering the chance to see if the common man still has a voice? It's still a crapshoot, but if you know the math and the other guy doesn't, even craps can be a successful venture. Here's to hoping for a 7.






I hope you get the 7 you're looking for, too. Whoever, or whatever, it is.

Normally, you mostly give off-hand comments and jokes. It's nice to see a real person behind the rhetoric. I think too often we find ourselves (myself included) acting like we have all the answers, that this is how things are. It's nice when a thread comes around every now and then and opens people up. David Zephyr certainly did that for me, and I feel alot better after getting some of my anxieties about Kerry off my chest.

Here's to the Democratic nominee, whoever that may be. And here's to humility and sincerity.

:toast:

Of course, I'm sure we'll be at each other in an hour or whatever, but let's try to keep in mind that we're both passionate Democrats, committed to doing what we feel is best for the Party, for America, and for the world.

:toast:

Too bad there are still so many DUers who can't see what you see.

I don't care if people support Kerry, Kucinich or whomever. But the poison some people spread about Dean is really over the top. And I question their motives.

:hi: