Who do you think Killed JFK?

I've been watching the History Channel's "The Men who Killed Kennedy" tonight and some of it is provacative. Made me wonder what fellow DUers think.

some right wing oligarchial faction in our country at the time.

This is the most convincing documentary I have ever seen since I was a student in D.C. at the time of the assassination !

And it is most disheartening to see the results of this poll so far.

Although there may be some self-selecting going on.

On basic ballistics alone, the whole official explanation is risable.

... Basic ballistics doesn't rule out Oswald.

Don't do like that. They just don't.

...toward ruling out Oswald.

According to the Warren Commission, the FBI firearms experts refused to test-fire the M-C until certain repairs were made to the weapon. Those repairs included tightening the scope so that it was no longer loose, repairing the bolt action so that it no longer caught in such a way as to slow the operation of the weapon, and repair of the rigger itself which tended to operate normally and then unexpectedly operate like a hair-trigger causing the weapon to fire prematurely.

Here are some additional links you may want to read:


The FBI's Fib about the Mannlicher Carcano
<http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr795-fbifib.html>


The Great Carcano Swindle
<http://www.geocities.com/whiskey99a/carcano.html>


Jerry Robertson's Photo Study of Bullet Lands and Grooves
<http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JR.html>

similar.

It's mostly bullshit.

Moreover, none of the mechanical adjustment you cite would have PRECLUDED the "basic ballistics" nor would it have precluded that gun from being used to fire those bullets.

So I guess you are going to rule out the shot from the front that was most likely the kill shot. Even the House Commitee on Assasinations finally admitted that there was a shot from the front, and thus a conspiracy back in 1976. You are also igoring the fact that several expert FBI marksmen tried fire to three shots(not aiming at all) in the time allotted by the Zapruder and other tapes. Couldn't be done, they could only get off two, and that was with no aiming at all. If you aimed you could probably only get off one.

You are also ignoring the fact that Oswald, if he was firing at all, was firing with his line of sight impared by a large tree, which while didn't entirely screen him from Kennedy, it would certainly hamper his aim. And remember, according to his Marine records, Oswald was a poor shot.

There are so many holes in the official Oswald as assasian theory that it simply doesn't hold water. Oswald was exactly what he claimed to be, the patsy.

-

If Kennedy had been shot from the front then it would have been the back of his head we see exploding on the Zapruder film. The exit wound was in the front so the shot had to have come from behind.

...was the result of the "jet effect" theory? Got any documentation to prove that theory? No? Neither did the guy that invented it.

By the way, what do you know of the chain of custody of the Zapruder film?

That's a great scene in JFK when Costner keeps repeating that over and over. What you don't see is the one frame where his head pitches forward slightly before moving back in response to the explosive head wound and his body already being hunched forward as far as it would go. I believe JFK was also wearing a back brace which would have added extra spring to his torso.

But all that aside... it was the front of his head that exploded. Not the back. It's just impossible for what we see on that film to have been the result of a shot from the grassy knoll.

About the chain of custody: I know nothing about it. What are you implying?

Edit: I think maybe Time magazine owned it for a while? I remember they published some stills at some point. I think Geraldo was actually the first one to show the whole thing publically but I could be wrong.

...back by a non-penetrating round a split-second before the fatal head-shot? Interesting.

Do you also dispute the large number of medical personnel at both Parkland and Bethesda who stated for the record that they saw a large 7 cm exit wound near the back of JFK's head? Were they all hallucinating? Were they all amateurs in regards to the examination of gunshot wounds, particularly those involving the head?

As to the Zapruder film, do your own research and tell me what you discover.

In the words of Costner, we're through the looking glass. What is a non-penetrating round, just for the sake of my curiosity?

I don't see how the chain of custody on the Zapruder film is at all relavent. I will stipulate that it was in the possession of the KGB or aliens until 1975. It doesn't matter unless you're saying that it's not real or is doctored somehow. Is there some reason I should believe that?

I was confused by the term non-penetrating wound. But I do believe I know what you mean now. This is from the House Select Committee on Assassinations:

(430) The panel believes that the difficulty which Drs. Humes, Finck, and Boswell experienced in trying to place a soft probe through the bullet pathway in President Kennedy's neck probably resulted from their failure or inability to manipulate this portion of the body into the same position it was in when the missile penetrated. Rigor mortis may have hindered this manipulation. Such placement would have enabled reconstruction of the relationships of the neck and shoulder when the missile struck. It is customary, however, to dissect missile tracks to determine damage and pathway. Probing a track blindly may produce false tracks and misinformation.

...your rather obnoxious comment.

I also doubt that you read ANY of the information I provided.

And I ain't GONNA "back it up," either.

If you were born after the publication of Rush to Judgment, then I read it before you were born. And The Warren Report. And probably 20-odd other books, numerous documentaries, articles, etc., all before your precious "links" were ever conceived of, before any kinds of "links" at all were conceived of.

I know very well what a fool's game it would be to try to get in an authentic discourse with competing sets of evidence with a JFK-assassination-conspiracist.

Mad Hound, for example, appears to be of the "it was an impossible shot--the FBI couldn't make that shot" scchool of thought. Well, it was an easy shot. I have stood in that window looking down onto Daley Plaza and figure it's 50/50 I could've hit a passenger in that car with a brick. Any FBI sniper who couldn't have gotten a six-inch group with that shot has no business putting "sniper" down on the job description.

So now what? He says its an extremely difficult shot, I say its an easy shot. No discourse is possible. We could add a hundred posts to this sub-thread on just this topic and not even move the discussion a millimeter.

So. I tell you. It's mostly bullshit.

Nothing I gave to "back up" what I just said is going to change your mind one bit. So why should I bother?

Sheesh, and here you are proud that you aren't backing anything up.

And somehow think that you are superior to the House Assasination Commitee. Lovely, just lovely.

Look, bub, what I said was it was impossible for FBI marksmen to get a bolt action gun like Oswalds to fire off three shots in the time allotted(if I remember right, it was a span of 3.2 seconds). And while you may have been up to the "assasain's nest", you were there after they cut down the tree blocking Oswald's view. It isn't an "impossible shot"(and please don't try to stuff words in my mouth), but with a tree blocking your view of a moving target, it is a difficult one, and Oswald was a recorded poor shot.

And then you fail to take into account at least one other bullet, the one that spattered into concrete of the overpass, spraying slivers everywhere, one of which is documented to have hit a bystander. You also fail to explain how this "magic bullet" could travel the course it did(which included two ninety degree turns in mid air), smash through dense flesh and hard bone, not once, but several times, only to emerge apparently unscathed and in pristine condition at the hospital.

And of course, you ignore the auditory evidence of shooters in front of Kennedy and in the building next to the book depository, the photographic evidence of a shooter behind the fence on the grassy knoll, eyewitness statements and so on and so forth.

But that's OK, toe that party line, just remember, you have nothing to "back you up", and are proud of it. Way to hang tough, way to fly in the face of reality.

If by "poor shot" you mean "unlikely to make the kill shot in Dallas." Or "poor shot" in relation to the general population.

No, I'm not ignoring the evidence of the grassy knoll and all the rest of that crap, I'm calling it "mostly bullshit."

Go look at Oswald's Marine records. It was noted in his records that he was a "poor shot".

And here you are, calling expert crime scene investigators, forensic pathologists, audio experts, video experts, dozens of eyewitnesses, and untold numbers of other people, including the House Assasinations Commitee "mostly bullshit", without backing your happy little theory up with one thing. Simply buying the physically impossible magic bullet theory.

Snake oil salesmen must love one so gullible as you.

The bullet didn't have to make any mid-air turns inconsistent with its trajectory. The relative alignment of JFK and Connally was perfectly consistent with them having been hit by the same bullet exactly as they were.

Take a look:
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl2.htm

...was probed by the autopsy doctors and was found to be a non-penetrating wound? In other words, the probe could not enter JFK's chest cavity (the only area of JFK's body that bullet could have entered at the angle of the alleged shot) because there was NO EXIT for that particular wound.

Additionally, did you know that the wound in the front of JFK's neck was described as small and circular by the medical personnel who first saw him at Parkland Hospital in Dallas? They also noted that it was a wound of entrance, not exit. Did you also know that the nicks in JFK's tie and shirt were caused by the scalpel used to remove those items of clothing at Parkland so that the doctors could begin work on JFK? The frontal neck wound was obliterated when the tracheotomy was done.

The so-called "magic Bullet" was nearly totally unscathed and looked far more indentical to a round fired into cotton than a round which allegedly caused seven wounds in two grown men. By the way, subsequent firing tests of M-C rounds into goat cadavers and human wrist bones conducted by the Warren Commission COULD NOT DUPLICATE in any way the pristine condition of the "Magic Bullet".

The "relative alignment" of the wounds is much easier to line up in a computer simulation if you ignore certain key testimony, isn't it? I find it laughable that some people try to argue the same old government line of bull without having looked at any of the actual evidence in detail.

I remember that scene in JFK.

I know there's a lot of inconsistencies about the autopsy but they just don't add up to a conspiracy. They add up to sloppy work which in itself is bad enough considering the subject.

I have to disagree about the bullet. The tests were severely flawed. It's impossible to recreate how any bullet will react absolutely, especially one that goes through multiple targets.

Witness testimony about where they were sitting and how they were oriented in their seats? Why would you rely on witness testimony for that? We have dozens of photographs and several seconds of 8mm film that show exactly how they were positioned.

I was a real junkie for this stuff for a long time and I believed all the grassy knoll, multiple shooter theories without really understanding anything in detail. But the more I learned the more it seemed obvious what the truth was. It was that image of the cloud of blood and brain tissue shooting up and forward from Kennedy's head and the way that chunk of skull folds over to the front that I couldn't rationalize away. Eventually I had to accept the truth. That shot came from the rear and a shot coming from the rear means only one thing ladies and gentlemen...

What you said about the angle of the back wound would be true if JFK had been sitting upright and straight. But he was hunched forward considerably as you can see in any photo. Remember how Costner had those guys sitting right in front of each other when he was talking about the magic bullet in court? That's nothing like how they were really sitting.

...discussion, not me.

I find it very sad that you allegedly chose to stop searching for the truth on the JFK assassination. But that's okay...there are plenty of us remaining who continue to sort through the theories and the evidence as it becomes available.

Did I mention anything about "witness testimony" concerning where the occupants of the JFK limo were sitting? I did refer to the actual physical evidence from JFK's autopsy, did I not? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying that what we see in a few seconds of film as explained by Arlen Specter is all the information we need to make a qualified decision. Sorry, but given the choice of relying on Specter's veracity and what the medical personnel stated that they saw at both Parkland and Bethesda, I'll take the opinions of the medical personnel every day.

You said, "The "relative alignment" of the wounds is much easier to line up in a computer simulation if you ignore certain key testimony, isn't it?" I somehow read the word "witness" in there. Still, it's not a matter of interpretation where Kennedy and Connally were sitting and how they were oriented.

The evidence from the Dallas autopsy doesn't in any way rule out Oswald as a lone shooter.

A MARINE being labeled a "poor shot" is a hellava lot different than an average person being labeled a poor shot, and all of that presumes that he was so labeled or that he didn't improve during training, which is what the Marines do with soldiers labeled "poor shots."

As for calling the experts "mostly bullshit," a-yup. You got that right. Mostly bullshit.

By the way, when are you going to cough up something to back up your point of view on anything having to do with the assassination of JFK?

Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath.

That would be dangerous.

You might asphixiate yourself waiting.

Why am I not surprised.

Because I've only said at least a half dozen times that I have no intention of going over all this.

I picked one very small issue, the "poor shot" angle, and you clung to your belief in the face of contrary emprical evidence and logical argument.

Like I said, er, like YOU said: Don't hold your breath.

Oswald qualified "Expert" throughout most of his tenure in the Marine Corps. It was only on his last I'm-outta-here-and-don't-give-a-sh!t testing that he failed.

Why is that rifle supposedly so difficult to shoot in the time alloted? I know a lot of people assume that, as a bolt action, you had to remove and insert a bullet between each shot. But this particular bolt action was magazine fed. That incorrect assumption has played a big part in leading a lot of people to believe in a conspiracy.

Many people also make the mistake of thinking he had to load, aim and fire three times in that timeframe when, of course, he had to go through the full cycle only twice.

...level of qualification.

...to actually defend his position.

You can't respond because you have nothing with which to respond.

All of their smoke and mirrors have been exposed, yet they still try to peddle the same old BS.

Kind of pathetic when you get right down to it.

Remember that scene from "Back to the Future II"?

Dude, I have a whole LOT better things to do with my life than exgage in pointless bickering about the JFK assassination. I picked one tiny issue, the "poor shot" angle, and it's obvious you won't listen to emperical evidence anyway.

So tell me why I should bother?

Because people reject the unlikeliest and least simple explanation?

FACT: Coup d'etats kill heads of state more often than lone assassins do.

Your FACT has no relevance to this case unless you can demonstrate its relevant.

It's a FACT that Presidents of the United States who win the popular vote win the Electoral College vote more often than those who lose the popular vote and win the Electoral College vote.

Checked the Oval Office lately?

can you summarize their findings and did they really overtly pinpoint LBJ?

LBJ came up as a prime suspect because of the ties he had in TX. I'll have to look at the tape I made to get names...but there was a party the night before the assassination where LBJ came in and took a call as well as discussed some stuff, (unknown) with some others, after LBJ left, people generally left the party.

in another segment, LBJ's mistress said she was told by LBJ that those, (bleep, bleeping Kennedy's, {sic}, wouldnn't embarass him again. Apparently, he said this twice to the mistress, on two seperate occasions.

The vast majority of stuff being presented on the Histor Ch is new to me, and interesting to say the least. Big problem I have, is WHY did it take so long for these people to come forward? Kind of pushes the credibility of some that would come out years after the event, when so much could have been done prior to today. The HSSC on Assassinations should have had access to a lot of this info. The fact that it comes out so late, makes it suspect to me, but it is fascinating to hear.

You could probably go to the History Channel on line and get a transcript.

:kick:

He and LBJ supposedly had a closed door conversation with a group of other guys at the party.

.

I'd vote for that one.

/////

... I agree with Terwilliger again :)

More specifically, a young cia opertive named George. He tried to get Reagan too.

answer. The common thread is Poppy.

I can see where the military industrial complex would want to get rid of a guy who took direct military action against Soviet naval ships to keep them away from Cuba, flew into a city completely surrounded by the Soviets to snub his nose in their faces, and launched a number of anti-Communist operations including stopping the first North Vietnamese invasion of the South along with the destruction of the Viet Minh.

At the rate he was going, he might have won the damn war too quickly for the industries to realize much of a profit.

I think Saddam hired al Qaeda to do it. LHO was an al Qaeda operative. Look at his hair and brow - he's obviously Arab.

If you offered that choice too, it would be hard to decide between them.

who in the Joint Chiefs had it in for him. They were planning an inauguration day coup, but it never happened.



Edited because, well, just because. Get over it.

et al.

Reasons:

The Oil windfall Profits tax (which JFK was about to implement to curb the extrem profits of the Rockefellers and oil cartels)

Vietnam (Brown and Root - LBJ and later Cheney's boyz et al - wanted the resources there and wanted to make a bundle of of warfare)

Cuba -- the day JFK head was blown open his emissary was in Cuba for talks with Castro to begin normalization of relations. The Mafia and blackops diivision of the CIA/Shaow gov. were still pissed that their base of operations for raising funds for off the shelf operations was disrupted (gambling, drugs and prostitution)

That's for starters

On Edit: Oh -- I think Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis ran the actual assassination operation. It appears to be they whose pictures were taken when they were poicked up on the grassy knoll.

Bush, at the time, was just a peripheral figure but close enough to be complicit. Nixon was there in Dallas that day, but forgot where he was when asked. LBJ and Nixon were the political beneficiaries and their backers were the economic beneficiaries.

Dulles Rockefeller Bush Hunt Hughes et al.

Reasons:

The Oil windfall Profits tax (which JFK was about to implement to curb the extrem profits of the Rockefellers and oil cartels)

I remember an older friend telling me that at the time.

Vietnam (Brown and Root - LBJ and later Cheney's boyz et al - wanted the resources there and wanted to make a bundle of of warfare)

I do think that we all tend to underestimate how long these people have been working behind the scenes. Another friend has done some research into the role of these families during the Second World War and it is scary to know that these people have now stepped out of the shadows and are doing their thing with the cheers and approval of about half of the citizens of this country.

The Mafia and blackops diivision of the CIA/Shaow gov. were still pissed that
their base of operations for raising funds for off the shelf operations was disrupted (gambling, drugs and
prostitution)

How sad, what all this country has tried to do to Cuba simply because they dare to prefer communism.

who did 9/11? I might vote for that. Okay, maybe not the same exact people but those with that mindset that toil within the bowels of our government.

Bush to this list :evilgrin:

Perhaps they had a time machine.

As evidenced by the names of the boats used in the Bay of Pigs fuckup.

The Barbara - Poppy's wife

The Houston - His adopted home town

The Zapata - Name of his oil company

for the BoP- It was Poppa Smirk's mission all the way.

He later found himself on a "grassy knoll" on nov 22,1963...the day he killed a president.

...because the OSS liked to recruit Yalies that belonged to secret societies and were also athletes. Poppy fit the bill on all three.

I am also of the opinion that the piece of film that we've seen, ad nauseum, of Poppy climbing on board a submarine after being allegedly shot down is part of the "legend" being used to protect Poppy's long background in intelligence. Subs were used by the OSS to insert and extract agents from the various islands held by the Japanese during WWII. The best way to get those agents to the subs was to drop them by parachute near a surfaced sub...that way, nobody watching U.S. port activity would know that the agent had ever left the port.

The CIA was signed into being by Truman in 1948. The operational component of the CIA was the old OSS...these were the folks that did the undercover stuff overseas to include the so-called "wet-work".

Contemporaries of Poppy would have been "Wild Bill" Donovan, head of the OSS during WWII, and a host of names familiar to anyone that's read anything about CIA intelligence operations. People like Frank Weisner, the Dulles brothers, David Atlee Phillips, E. Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis, Bernard Barker, George DeMohrenschildt, etc. Poppy would have participated in intelligence operations in Mexico, Central America, South America, and the Caribbean, as did all but a few of the operatives noted above. In fact, he would have also participated in domestic operations, supposedly only to be conducted by the FBI.

People outside the so-called intelligence apparatus would have been Poppy's allies...J. Edgar Hoover, Richard Nixon, LBJ, the Hunt brothers of Texas, the old money folks in the Eastern U.S., etc.

I watched more than a dozen people on MSNBC recounting, in considerable detail, specific events in and around the hour of JFK's assasination. John McCain remembered. Michael Moore remembered. Tom Brokaw sure as hell remembered. Ed Harris remembered. But George H. W. Bush somehow cannot remember what happened to him in Dallas on November 22, 1963.

Spooky.

Maybe that's because the news didn't come as a great shock to him?

Where was Poppy Bush on November 22, 1963?

Where was E. Howard Hunt?

Where was Bay of Pigs veteran and CIA operative Felix Rodriguez, better known as "Max Gomez" during the Iran Contra scandal?

couldn't handle a northern catholic beating their redneck LBJ during the nomination process, so they got rid of him Texas style which was in vogue down there a half-century ago.

On History Channel now.

Explaining how Secret Service sabatoged JFK's security on day of the shooting.

are me and Oswald; everything else is up for grabs.

:kick:

so I'm not part of it either ;-)

n/t

A very clever eight years old, mind you, but a great admirer of President Kennedy and not inclined to do him harm.

After all, it was you and me.

until the 80s

The worst line was the one he snorted off of David Bowie's chest in 1973. :o

Lou Reed's snot

that one will make me wake up in the morning with a Zomby Woof on my mind....
god that was cheezy.. just an excuse for some Zappa sympatico..
Scott

Any Zappa sympatico is okay by me. *wipes Reed's snot on mitchum's shirt*

#2 would be that it had an awful lot to do with Cuba -- Cuban exiles, disgruntled Bay of Pigs veterans. Mafia bosses who'd lost their casinos.

Of course, both of those lead back to the BFEE -- kind of like all roads leading to Rome, I guess.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

the military/industrial complex - among others. Interesting that Kennedy had intentions to pull all troops from Viet Nam and even signed the order to begin withdrawal. LBJ immediately reversed that, and we know what happened after that. (Texas oilmen - also part of the military/industrual complex.)

How about the previously unidentified fingerprint in the School Book Depository sniper's nest identified as a criminal associate of LBJ? Interesting.

Also the party the night before the assassination was an interesting group, wasn't it. Nixon, J. Edgar Hoover, LBJ, and that Texas billionaire oilman (Murcheson? - forgot his name) Very, very interesting assortment.

The fragments of which became the Bush Crime Family that is poised to end the American Experiment once and for all...

Dick Nixon was handpicked to be Ike's running mate by Prescott Bush. His entire political career was as one of them.

I mean look at the guy. His manners, his voice, nice-guy looks.
The guy couldn't hurt a fly.

Histroy Channel just mentioned how the limo Kennedy was in was ordered sent away and scrapped at a Ford motor plant before anyone could examine it. Witnesesses said the car was riddled with bullets.

The car was never never submitted as evidence during the Warren hearings. Now why is that??

I was only a teenager but I remember it vividly. I already suspected from the photograph of LBJ taking the oath of office that he was involved or knew who'd really done it. When he had the limousine demolished it was obvious for anyone with half a brain that a cover-up was in the works. It was a crime of state and the vehicle in which the President of the United States had been assassinated was destroyed BEFORE a thorough investigation.

Remind anyone of anything more recent?

The limo JFK was killed in is currently on disply in the Henry Ford Museum... it is a 1961 Lincoln Continental stretch convertable limo

and completely rebuilt

directly behind him.. that's why Jackie crawled back on the trunk.. to git his skull and brains.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

...that a mediocre shot with a misaligned scope could score headshots on a target in a moving car from the third floor of the Book Repository. And that he would leave the murder weapon in that room to be found much later. And that Oswald was lying when he looked the TV camera straight on, confronted a screaming reporter's question, and said "I didn't do it."

Or one could question if maybe, just maybe, Oswald was a patsy, set up to take the blame for Kennedy's death by one of Kennedy's many enemies.

The answers died with Jack Ruby, IMHO. Had he been extradicted to a safer prison, maybe he would have given the testimony necessary to crack the case wide open. Instead, he died of cancer in a Texas prison, and we'll never know.

as long as poppy draws breath.

Poppy will Never Ever uncover his role in the assasination. Never. That is one thing of which I'm certain. Wouldn't surprise me if he has a cyanide tooth in his jaw, so he can kill himself quickly should he face serious interrogation on the topic.

I've never been much of one for conspiracy theories, but I've always been troubled by assertions that someone could be that accurate a shot with a bolt action rifle and a moving target(not only moving at the speed of the car but moving inside the limo as a result of the first shot)in the allotted time. Just hope I live long enough to learn the real story.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

were gunned down in. There had to be automatic rifle or machine gun fire.

that the interior of the President's limo had been completely stripped bear at the Ford plant (seats taken out, panels taken out, blood wiped clean, etc.)

The manager at the plant said this occurred shortly after the shooting.

Apparently, it was used as the presidential limo for several more years after it was cleaned up. It now has a hard top on it (probably installed after the assassination). I took a picture of it when I was at the museum in '94.

I think that a lot of blackmailing has gone on by some in government who know and who have used their knowledge and evidence to gain political leverage.

All of whom were extremely angry at Kennedy over the Bay of Pigs...the CIA perceived it as being "soft on Communism"; the Mafia wanted their Havana casinos back (and wanted to take out Jack as revenge for Bobby crackingdown on them as Attorney General); the Cubans felt like they'd been fucked over and wanted revenge...the most convincing scenario has these 3 groups acting in concert.

that this isn't dreaming up some weird, one-off, ad hoc coming together of disparate groups. The CIA, the mob and the Cubans were already working together on Castro assassination plots and the like. The CIA, the military and the mob had run joint ventures and been pursuing mutual interests for decades, had established channels of communication and shared numerous go-betweens.

CIA, and the head of that operation was none other than Poppy Bush."Can't remember" where he was that day my ass....

Poppy Bush. After he discovered how EASY it was to kill a man(first, his 2 aircrew members in WWII) he got to liking it.
JFK, Bobby, Tried to whack Ford (Warren Commission. Have to silence him) and got impatient for the Oval Office and tried to whack The Great Pants Soiler, it just kept going.

Poppy Bush, CEO of "Assassins, Inc."

JFK was about to bust European Nazis who had infiltrated public life.

Using just time frames, it is ridiculous to believe that Oswald fired all, iof any, of the shots that day.

Everyone knows about the Mannlicher-Carcano and the bad scope, so I'll leave it alone.

Oswald fires, then runs down to the first floor from the sixth, in a matter of less than a minute, buys a Coke and is confronted by the Mgr of the builing and a Dallas Police Officer. He is not winded, and shows no sighns of stress, (a little wierd wouldn't you say)?

Oswald finds out the president has been shot, gets on a bus to go home. Leaves bus, and walks the rest of the way because of time constraints due to assassination. Traffic is messed up, and people are in shock. After getting home, Oswald picks up a revolver, then walks a few blocks to allegedly kill Officer Tippet. Witnesses see two people, neither identified as Oswald, shoot at Tippet. Cartridge cases from an automatic are fouond at the site, something Oswald did not have in his possesion. Automatics eject casings, revolvers don't.

Oswald winds up going into the Texas Theater by after not purchasing a ticket, (not to bright), and the ticket seller calls the police. A good portion of the Dallas PD shows up for the arrest. I have often wondered why ANY police officer wouold show up within an hour of the assassintaion of a president and the murder of a Police Officer, to confront someone who had not paid for a ticket in a theater. But not one officer shows up, a whole fistful of officers show up. This one piece of evidence alone speaks volumes of what was happening that day.

Oswald was set up, and his famoous words, he was a "patsy". I am sure that he was to meet a contact in the theater. I will not say that Oswald was not a part of a larger conspiracy, but if he were, he was obviously expendable.

There are many more facts and time frames that never were part of the Warren Commission's report. Just the "Magic Bullet" alone could use up untold amounts of space.

Like I said before, I know I didn't do it, and I know Oswald didn't pull the trigger for the head shot, everything else is up for speculation.

:kick:

Everyone knows about the Mannlicher-Carcano and the bad scope, so I'll leave it alone.

"Everybody knows?" Logical fallacy. You can shoot accurately with a bad rifle. I was on the range one time with an FN-C1 shooting bullseyes. The armourer came along to inspect the weapon and immediately confiscated it as unusable.

Just because a weapon jams sometimes doesn't mean it jams every time. Oswald got "lucky" (if you can all it that).

Automatics eject casings, revolvers don't.

Revolvers eject casings if you dump them on the floor when reloading. There's no such thing as "automatic" ammunition - rounds are rounds.

Oswald fires, then runs down to the first floor from the sixth, ... He is not winded, and shows no signs of stress,

He's running downstairs not upstairs. Downstairs is easy, especially if you're in any sort of shape. He has just done a crazy thing, apparently without remorse. Crazy people do crazy things like going in theatres without buying tickets. Trying to make "sense" out of crazy people's behaviour will drive you crazy.

The Carcano was a piece of trash, albeit a cheap piece of trash. He would have had to practic elong and hard to get that rifle to work the way it was supposed to.

As for the casings found at the Tippet murder site. They were of two different calibers, and yes there is "auto" ammo. .46 ACP for one, is different fron .45 standard.

According to eyewitnesses, the Tippet assailant immediately fled the scene, he/they did not stand around dumping rounds out of the cylinder, or reload. Bullets that killed Tippet were .32's I believe and Oswald had a .38. Initial reports said that Oswalds revolver had not been recently fired. (Maybe he threw or spit bullets at Tippet?).

I don't cqare who you are, to cross the floor on the 6th floor, run down some 12 flights of stairs, and calmly buy a Coke without breaking a sweat or being winded, to say the least, not showing any signs of fear or anxiety when a cop shows up with gun drawn, (especially after shooting the president),the person is not insane, but more likely an alien!

:tinfoilhat: it just doesn't add up...and still does not explain why so many Dallas police officers showed up for someone that scooted into a theater without paying, right after there was an assassination not far away. Logic says one, maybe two officers to thropw the guy out of the theater, not 15, and to be there so quickly, we're talking 2 minutes after the call went into the PD. Kind of overkill wouldn't you say? Would 10 cops show up for a litterer?

And I found the History Channel's reference to Oswald looking to connect with a "Mr. B" in Mexico City utterly fascinating.

:evilgrin:
dbt

Tricky couldn't stand losing. It got to him. He was afraid his glorious political career might be preempted by a New England Liberal and hell knows what after that.

When a Texan gets as close to being The Big Shot as LBJ was--look out.

Nearly the same enemy we have today, substituting the Pentagoons for the C.I.A.

... a skid-row alky found dead in an alley in Chicago would receive a more competent forensic post-mortem examination than did the President of the United States? The best evidence in any homicide investigation is always the body of the deceased, and President Kennedy's is still buried at Arlington, where it's been for the last 40 years.

Can we say 'exhumation'?

Was not JFK about to dismantle the Federal Reserve?

LBJ gained the presidency, but then that is not always a step up.

who stood to lose if JFK stayed in office?

I suppose I coulda voted Mafia, but I think they deserve separate mention.

Mick Jagger on the poll?:evilgrin:

is possibly the only American then alive who has stated, for the record, that he "can't remember" where he was on 11/22/63.

Grassy knoll? Triple underpass, perhaps?

:tinfoilhat:

Stupid sheep fucks!!!!

Well, that's nice, lunatic paranoid motherfucker.

I'm glad we're keeping this civil.

....

Google Marcello, Trafficante, Hoffa, JFK.
Or read this:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/family_epics/marcello/1.html?sect=16

overlooking Dealey Plaza. And that's it.

were mistaken about an entry wound in JFK's neck, a small entrance wound in the forehead, and a large exit wound in the back of his head. Probably didn't look closely. But once they got JFK back to Washington, those mistaken and misguided doctors and nurses were all properly discredited in the official autopsy report; and their testimony to the Warren Commission discarded as mistaken, which it undoubtedly was, ya know? What do emergency room doctors know about gunshot wounds anyway?

It's not inconceivable that Oswald was part of a conspiracy. But is completely impossible that the shots which hit Kennedy and Connaly came from anywhere but that sixth floor window of the book depository.

1) The head shot clearly came from behind as evidenced by the Zapruder film. That film shows the front part of Kennedy's head exploding which necessarily means the shot came from behind. This is so obvious it's amazing anyone would think it came from the front. If the shot came from the front then it would have been the back of Kennedy's head that exploded.

2) When the head shot came the limo was nearly at a stop. The driver had slowed down and looked behind him when he heard gunfire. You can clearly see this on the Zapruder film also. He then speeds off.

3) The "magic bullet" behaved exactly like a normal bullet should have. Kennedy was hunched over forward and to the right side of the limo with his armpit resting on the door. Connaly, in front of him, was sitting much farther inbound with his body twisted slightly to the right as he looked at the crowd. They were lined up perfectly for the bullet to go through Kennedy's neck and then enter Connaly's back under the right armpit.

None of this means there wasn't a conspiracy. It just means that there was only a single gunman who fired from the sixth floor window of the book depository.

I used to believe the conspiracy stuff but the more I learned the more it just didn't make sense. That part of me was somewhat disappointed when the myths were shattered but I had to accept the obvious.

Here is a link to a site debuffing the reenactment of the reenactment of the "magic bullet" trajectory as seen in the very good fantasy film JFK by Oliver Stone.
http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100sbt.html

This is a site which details the tractories of the bullets with excellent graphics.
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl2.htm

The head shot did not come from the TSBD. let's not forget, there is 1 frame missing from the Zapruder film. Don't ask how or why, but it is mentioned, as well as a couple of others that are missing. The head moves to th rear after being struck, and it is clear that a pice of the occipital lobe is skidding across the trunk. If shot from the rear, this is not going to happen.

The 'magic' or "pristine" bullet, that was picked up off the gurney at Parkland, could not have been the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally, unless it actually gained in mass! More weight in fragments found in Connally than the bullet had lost going through Kennedy. For it to gain mass, it would indeed have to be "magic".

One frame missing would not change the fact that the exit wound is in the front. And a bit of JFK's skull and brain matter ending up on the back of the car is normal. Stuff was flying everywhere, but clearly the majority is going upward and forward.

Also the bullet recovered was not pristine at all. It was severely flattened, had bit missing from the tip and lead extruding from the bottom. It also just doesn't make sense for someone to have planted what could have turned out to be one too many bullets.

it had two small knicks out of the nose. That is the bullet from the gurney where Conally was laying. It is indeed "pristine".

The bullet was in pretty good shape I would say. You cannot call it pristine. As I said, it was severely flattened, had lead protruding from the base (possibly the source of the bullet material found in Connally) and you even admit it had two small nicks on the nose. Those things disqualify it from being called pristine.

But think about it for a moment... knowing how many bullets were fired, why would the members of the "conspiracy" want to plant another bullet that hadn't actually been used in the assassination? What purpose could that serve? It would add an extra bullet to the evidence pool, essentially proving the conspiracy they were trying to cover up.

Allowing the motorcade to violate Secret Service guidelines in making the more than 90 degree turn set up Oswald for the kill.
Oswald got "help".

The death certificates and The Warren Report state that Kennedy was killed by high-velocity missiles. But the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano is not a high-velocity weapon. Its muzzle velocity is 2,000 fps, meaning it qualifies as a medium-to-low velocity weapon, rendering it incapable of having been the cause of Kennedy's head trauma. (Murder in Dealey Plaza, p. 5)

Oswald is alleged to have used standard full-metal jacket ammunition, which does not explode upon impact. Kennedy's head wound is more typical of that caused by an exploding bullet.

Historian Michael Kurtz points this out in his analysis of the autopsy materials and the HSCA testimony of wound ballistics expert Dr. Larry Sturdivan:

"Sturvidan...stated that Kennedy was not struck in the front of the head by an exploding bullet fired from the grassy knoll. The reason, Sturdivan declared, was that the computer-enhanced x-rays of Kennedy's skull do not depict 'a cloud of metallic fragments very near the entrance wound.' In cases where exploding bullets impact, he asserted that 'you would definitely have seen' such a cloud of fragments in the x-ray. Sturdivan's remarks betrayed both his own ignorance of the medical evidence and the committee's careful manipulation of that evidence. Sturdivan saw only the computer-enhanced x-ray of the skull, not the original, unretouched x-rays. Had he seen the originals, he would have observed a cloud of metallic fragments clustered in the right front portion of the head. Furthermore, the close-up photograph of the margins of the large wound in the head shows numerous small fragments. The Forensic Pathology Panel itself noted the presence of 'missile dust' near the wound in the front of the head. One of the expert radiologists who examined the x-rays noticed 'a linear alignment of tiny metallic fragments' located in the 'posterior aspect of the right frontal bone.' The chief autopsy pathologist, Dr. James J. Humes, remarked about the numerous metallic fragments like grains of sand scattered near the front head wound. The medical evidence, then, definitely proves the existence of a cloud of fragments in the right front portion of Kennedy's head, convincing evidence, according to Sturdivan, that an exploding bullet actually did strike the president there." (Crime of the Century, p. 177)

More points for you to consider in this thread from yesterday, "JFK Assassination: 10 Simple Facts":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=726944#727957

Carlos Marcello had both John and Robert hit as a payback for his deportment.Lee Harvey Oswalds step father was a bookie for the Carollo family in New Orleans.Sirhan Sirhan was a horse groom for a Stable owned by Cohen(Marcello's LA Capo)at Santa Anita Downs.Santos Trafficante(Miami-Cuba Capo) told an FBI informant in 1962 that Jack Kennedy would be dead in less then a year.Jack Ruby was a Marcello's made man in Dallas.Add it all up Folks.

The book "Little Big Man in the Big Easy" outlines the whole scheme in chapters 14-17.

Also FBI records show that James Earl Ray visited the Town&Country Motel in Jefferson Parish in 1967.This same motel owned by Carlos Marcello and family.It is thought that Marcello was doing the hit on MLKing for JE Hoover as a payback for the Warren Commission ruling that Oswald was the lone gunman in the JFK hit.

The whole thing was set-up by CIA-LBJ-Meyer Lansky who had the ties to CIA agents in Miami-New Orleans-Dallas-Mexico Tequila factories(CIA fronts).

All the evidence is out there.It was the greatest Mob Hit ever.As all New Orleanians know,the Little Big Man never lost a bet.He bet his brother in 1958 after his deportation that the Kennedys wouldn't die of natural causes.

The CIA hit team was on the grassy knoll.

The CIA hit man was the security man behind RFK in the Ballroom
kitchen.

WHY you ask,would LBJ get involved along with the CIA and the FBI?Lady Byrds ownership of Halliburton is the answer. There was a Presidental Order sitting in the desk of JFK in the Oval Office in which ordered a troop & military support withdrawal in Vietnam.Halliburtons cash cow was threatened.JFK told several aides and LBJ that he would sign the order after he returned from Dallas.That order was removed from his desk minutes after the first shot was fired.

Robert was killed to keep him from being able to bring the the whole conspiricy to light with presidential powers if he were elected in 1968.

Everyone will know the truth in about 30 years when the files are reopened that were sealed by the Kennedys under duress by the CIA-Warren Court.

I usually don't believe conspiricy storys but in this case I know its true because my best friends dad owned several Tequila factories in Mexico,he kept reel to reel tape recorders on the telephones and we were forbidden to answer or use the phones.All 6 of them.He left New Orleans on Nov.20th 1963 supposedly to go to Texas on business.He never returned to New Orleans.My friend and his mother left for Mexico a month later never to be heard from again.My friend once told me his Dad worked for the Government as a spy but I never believed him.Now I do.The Family name came up several times in the Jim Garrison trials in New Orleans.Thats why I know its true.

Maybe the mob killed Kennedy but if they did they weren't on the grassy knoll. Again, if Kennedy had been shot from the front then it would have been the back of his head that exploded. But it was the front of his head that exploded. So the bullet had to have come from behind. That's just how it works.

As of lately all the sound recordings of the event that day examined by high tech means now say one shot came from the grassy knoll.I'm believe one shot came from the front because of JFK slumping forward then his head snapping back a second later.I believe the first shot came from the book depository but the second came from the knoll.If you recall the tapes of the grassy knoll showed people ducking and looking behind them as the shots rang out.The third shot also came from the book depository thus also gives credence to Oswalds ability to get off 2 shots and not 3 in 5 seconds.

backward.
Are we watching the same film here?

We must be watching different films. The one I'm watching shows a big chunk of skull, attached by skin at the bottom, folding forward over the area of Kennedy's right eye. He does jerk back and to the left but this is well after the bullet hit and isn't consistent with being caused by the impact of the bullet.

Just like his ties to Hinkley ,(whom shot Reagan),that is about to be release
because the doctors out of the blue ,during W's administration,
say he is perfectly normal!!!!

This guys footprints are getting to easy to follow now!

Because really, I find the obsession bizarre.

and you "find the obsession bizarre"?

America can't be put right until this, the cause of so many wrongs, is put right.

"America can't be put right until this, the cause of so many wrongs, is put right."

That's an unfalsifiable, unproveable fantasy.

How was the Kennedy assassination the cause of any of today's problems?

And I'm far from convinced that the state arranged and covered up his murder.

Kennedy was far from perfect, but Americans can't sit and let a bunch of yahoos kill their President and not be allowed to know what the hell went down!

The fact of the matter is that Kennedy was trying to
1) get the CIA under some kind of control by ELECTED OFFICE HOLDERS.
2) get America out of an unwise war in Vietnam.
3) get J.Edgar Hoover and his own personal Hoover Bureau of Investigation back under Federal control.
4) get the Oil Depletion allowance under control so that rich Texans paid more reasonable taxes on their huge Oil profits.
5) and Bobby was going after Organized Crime, all of which made enemies of people I am happy that he dared to alienate, but all of which caused a lot of powerful people to conspire to engage in such a successful COUP d'ETAT that most Americans aren't yet aware that it even happened.

JFK was just another establishment "liberal". He didn't seriously threaten the status quo.

That flies in the face of what's already known. He threatened some very powerful people in this country. If that all sounds like one big X-files show, so be it.

He was a Cold Warrior who supported the South Vietnamese. He was friends with Joseph McCarthy, and supported him politically. His attitude towards the civil rights movement was one of very critical support. He cut the capital gains tax.

And don't say he was ready to pull out of Vietnam. Read Chomsky's Rethinking Camelot.

I personally detest the Kennedys. They exemplify limousine liberalism.

before you try blowing Chomsky's smoke up any more asses.

http://bostonreview.net/BR28.5/galbraith.html

except that I consider them a cancer on the body politic

at least that's what somebody said in the Gun dungeon...

I guess the US Postal Service was also involved... :eyes:

I've heard lots and lots of theories, but I think that's another part of the coverup. I think looking at what Kennedy's asassination brought about or caused the cancellation of is a lot more revealing. The fact is, we'll probably never know. At least in this lifetime.

but not without a nod from number two and not with FBI agents directly involved.

It's obvious Oswell fired shots, and had connections with the bay-off pigs crowd who were also pissed at Kennedy. But he also spent time in Cuba, time with Communist groups, and time working with counter-intelligence. This guy was a complete nut, and if he was really used by the government in security operations..it certainly exploded in our faces!

But who knows what really happened? And what kind of investigation doesn't even allow an autopsy and public investigation of the assassination of the President? A detailed autopsy is always the key to finding the precise causes of death, and for putting together any case needed to convict someone of murder. But investigating a murder case without an autopsy is just as groundless as supporting conspiracy theories based only on paranoia.

Just my opinion.