Mumia probably killed that guy

That's what I heard Michael Moore say last night on C-SPAN. He was talking about things that some "lefties" have wrong and won't admit.

MOORE: Well, that`s because every time I go to speak on a campus, there`s always a group of well-meaning kids handing out this -- Mummia is a guy who`s on death row in Pennsylvania, who actually wrote a best-selling book and was a commentator on NPR for a while, on "All Things Considered." And he was accused of killing a cop, and that`s why he`s on death row. And there`s all these movements on the left about, you know, freeing Mummia. And you know, from everything I`ve read, you know -- - it`s like one of those things that you can`t really say to them. It`s like, you know -- Well, you know, there`s a good chance, actually, he did kill the guy.

Now, I`m against the death penalty. I don`t think Mummia should be executed, and I will do whatever I can to participate in fighting his execution. But there are two separate issues there. And it`s only one of many things that I...

*snip*

http://www.booknotes.org/Transcript/?ProgramID=1754

Moore had some good ideas about winning Republicans over.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/17/164233

This man is a true journalist...they read some of his writings from prison and before his imprisonment. He is one of America's true political prisoners. I learned a lot from this program and other materila about Mumia. His imprisonment makes him Mandela-lite.

The guy shot someone in cold blood and rants and raves how he is a political prisoner.
Sounds like a cheap hood looking for attention.

Moore came across as a real person I might know in real life, which is very rare. Sounded like whatever he was saying, or whatever he's written, is what he really believes, whether it's right or wrong.

He lost me when talking about religion, but that's something I can relate to also, a lot of real people lose me when talking about religion.

That would put the issue to rest for me.

They enjoyed it.

Let's have a retrial.....Le't get rid of the death penalty except for when the victim is a child or person that has created crimes against humanity...killing more than 20 people or something.


Damm, that's a fine man on that pic you got there!

May I?

I guess. But the justice system is even *more* screwed up now. :shrug:

I'm ordinarily against the death penalty as a matter of principle. (I actualy worship as a deity a fellow who was wrongly convicted and executed.) But really, this Mumia guy wore out his celebrity welcome years ago. Let him take his appeals like all the other "wrongly convicted" death row inmates. This guy is sucking up attention that guys who have evidence they are innocent might actually benefit from.


And let's not have a retrial for Mumia, at least not a real one. Let's have a pretend retrial, where we close our eyes and play pretend, so that the supporters can have their fantasy and claim they were robbed again, just like the first time.

The cop killer Mumia got a trial the first time, and chose not to testify and thereby perjure himself. There's no do-overs simply because the losers (and I do mean losers) have consequences for their decisions.

Death to Mumia!!!! And the sooner the better.

or deliberate amoral flame-baiting.

If so, or if not, there is no point in pointing you toward the facts of the matter.

I am sick and tired of this guilty SOB forcing innocent death row inmates out of the public eye. He had a trial and was found guilty. His chief complaint is that he could now testify and change everything, when he deliberately chose to remain silent during his trial. I've heard the whole thing several times and its a load of crap. You get to make the choice of testify once, and only once, no do-overs.

Death to Mumia.

After this SOB is executed, the only retrials will be by tired historical societies reliving the youths of Mumia supporters. And then maybe death penalty opponents will take up the cause of a deserving inmate.

Death to Mumia. It will be worth compromising my prinicples here just to watch his supporters' lower lips tremble in outrage and finally have them SHUT UP! Cut his mike!

I guess you don't know that others have confessed to the killing of that cop and that the appeals are not based on the rationale you suggest. You seem pretty determined to see him killed; I can't guess why you want this. But if you want to understand why "they" want to silence him you can listen to his voice at the beginning of this segment from today's Democracy Now! show: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/17/164233 The audio link is: http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=webactive/demnow/dn20031117.ra&start=16:12.6

I heard the show too- have followed the case for years.
Mumia is undoubtedly one of the most intelligent minds to ever
grace our country. No wonder they want to silence him.
The rabid left is every bit as alarming to me as the rabid right
these days.
Notice how many of them are also Clark supporters?
Moore has recently endorsed Clark as well.
Somehow, I find it hard to believe that Moore is unaware
of the Clark corporate connection to Frank Carlucci who funded
the formation of Entrust. (Recent winner of the Homeland Security
contract and Northrop Gruntmen.)
Illinois has just contracted with Entrust to ensure the monitoring
of draft evaders...No child left behind...Clark will make certain of that.
BHN

the confessions are lies. The guy is guilty. I want him executed because he is guilty and he is (was) duping people over the radio, just like Rush Limbaugh. He and his mental case followers have inveted stupid excuses for years and they need to get on to something that isn't so dead end, like supporting Lyndon LaRouche. And I'll love seeing weepy fools crying about it. The guy was found guilty by a jury because he was guilty. You just don't know what the facts are other than paper thin excuses.

Death to Mumia. Weeping to his wussie followers.

I had always found your posts intelligent and thoughtful.
You have NO idea what you are talking about here however.
Is Mumia guilty the same way the inmates in Gitmo are?
He is a political prisoner- same as Leonard Peltier.
God help you, if you are ever considered as big as a
threat as they are to the powers that be.
BHN

factually sound, his excuses are obvious lies, and his legal ground (I am a lawyer) is full of crap. This guy is spouting a line of bullshit lacking a fraction the intellecutal integrity of a Lyndon LaRouche position paper.

But the guy is guilty, in a factual way of killing the cop and then spending the next 20 years lying about it.

I'm against the death penalty in all instances, including this bastard's. But calling him a bastard is an insult to bastards everywhere. About half of all death row inmates, in my opinion (based on Illinois statistics) are factually innocent. Yet the Mumia cult is only aware of this one inmate because of his long campaign of fatuous and obvious lies. Nor is he a genius, nor a great reporter. He is a self-promoter and no different than Ira Einhorn in manipulating trusting people for his own personal gain, at the expense of the liberal cause, not advancing it. This cop killer and his followers have done more damage to the anti-death penalty cause than any other issue. His obligation to himself and his cause, as a human being and a reporter, was to get out all of the facts as he knew them as soon as possible and to testify on his own behalf. He chose to game the system, and lost.

without hearing the voice of any number of hate-radio/TV ranters?

A hundred death-row inmates, duly convicted, have been proven innocent because DNA evidence was available and decisive, and yet you are convinced that this one guy is guilty as charged because of what? Because you were you there? Because he he is articulate? Because he was always a radical thinker? Because he is black? Because he speaks the truth? Why?

Mumia was convicted on the basis of incredibly perjured testimony, with a biased judge to boot. and what, pray tell was the "motive" for Mumia to kill the cop? if Michael Moore really said that, he needs to do a little more research before opening his trap on the subject.

minded thinking.

Perjured testimony, a biased judge. Awww, cry me a river. There are standards in the law for exactly those things to be considered on appeal, but he hasn't met those standards. Everyone who loses a court case cries that river, and most mean it. It doesn't make it true.

There are people who are as sincerely convinced as you guys are that Adolf Hitler was innocent. They do that because they interpret all of the evidence their own way to fit a preconceived notion. They are nutty and they are sincere and they spread lies and they are just wrong. Heck, when I look at my dictionary, I sincerely believe that Bill Clinton did not have sex with "that woman", but did have fellatio. Sex is penis into vagina. He didn't do that. But the court of public opinion thought it was a lie (not worthy of impeachment, but a lie nonetheless) and dinged him on his credibility. He even acknowledged it was deceptive. I personally don't think that, but I am inclined not to, and as a professional, I think that Starr and his subordinates were incomptent in not asking the right question, so I scored my game card as I pleased. You and I don't get to interpret the evidence in a court case, the jury does. And if you don't get it right the first time, tough luck.

And there are also standards for late evidence, confessions after the fact from wackos, and even factual innocence. Mumia meets none of them.

There are people on death row who do. But because Mumia the murderer happens to be black, happens to be a leftist and happens to be a good communicator (sure could have helped at his trial according to you guys), that doesn't mean he is not capable of killing. There are people on death row who are innocent of the crime charged, but because they are black (or not), leftist (or not) but mostly because they cannot cast a personal spell of charisma, have nobody arguing for them, least of all not a bunch of fool hypocrits who fall for a slick tongued liar. They don't even have so much as a human being who will come to visit them as they await their execution date, or write them a letter.

Mumia is an ass. We do not deserve to have his blood on our hands, but his self-centered Jim Jones type brain-washing of the gullible doesn't leave me feeling at all sorry for him. I have not felt this way about a death row inmate except once before: for Timothy McVeigh. But my disgust at Mumia exceeds what I felt even for McVeigh: McVeigh at least did not send out young fools to die like Hitler order the Hitler Youth to fight to the death from the bunker. Mumia is a despicable Svengali, and I will not weep when he gets his injection. Mumia has earned my contempt, which is my own to decide on, because he refused to testify at his trial to what he supposedly felt the truth was, and because he tells such obvious lies sucking in so many compassionate people. Now you may think that, well, he doesn't have to take the stand. He doesn't. But I'm not on a jury, and his trial is over, and I am not treading on any of his rights in drawing my own conclusion for it: someone who is on trial for their life who does not get on the stand to look the jury in the eye and say they didn't do it, or explain why what they did was not a crime, when charged with the murder of a cop isn't a genius, he is an idiot with something to hide. I don't do criminal defense, but I know damn well that if I had faced those accusations and even if I had a criminal record, that I had damn well better take the stand or have my will all made out. Mumia did not take the stand because he would have faced a cross examination that he felt he could not survive.

maybe killing a cop is worse than actually killing hundreds. Listen to yourself.

(edit typo)

Murdering a cop is a crime. So is killing hundreds. I've reviewed the evidence, and I am convinced that Mumia killed the cop. I'm well aware that people in denial are beyond convincing: there is indeed far more evidence of the holocaust, but if people can deny that, they can certainly deny the evidence in one little disputed homocide.

So what? And you are sure that you are omniscient? Why the hatred? Why the lust for blood? Why the venom? I really don't get it.

No, I don't claim to be omniscient, or even infallible. I despise people like Limbaugh, Hitler, O'Reilly, Mumia, et al who build a cult following of fanatical followers. No, if you'd read my posts, I'd rather people not be executed, including him. But he has killed a cop and should be punished. I find his apologists pathetic fools and I fault him for misleading them. I'll add Charles Manson to the list. I don't need to be omniscient or infallible to be certain that this guy is a sinister creep who has killed a cop and duped fools.

You can be just as certain of your view, you could claim to be omniscient and/or infallible (as some here have with respect to infallibility) and it wouldn't sway me a bit. Mumia murdered a police officer and was found guilty by a jury. Whining, but not proving, improper bias is the argument of a loser. Mumia's deception of otherwise good people (you guys) and his willingness to do so with laughably bad lies convinces me that he is a sick, twisted sadist. I am reminded that famous murderers like Richard Ramirez, and the Mendendez brothers have no problem attracting women to marry them and convince them of their innocence despite what any rational and unbiased person would tell them. I think that developing a personality cult, a religion, which is what Mumia and LaRouche, Hitler, Moon, Manson, Jim Jones and others have done is especially evil. It is terribly selfish and destroys the lives of the people sucked in. There is no difference between Mumia and Jim Jones except that Mumia is a convicted murderer and still able to hold sway over the weak minded.

Someone would know that, as opposed to believe that because they are omnipotent.

The recanted testimony has to be a lie, because police have never, and would never, coerce or threaten witnesses.

The judge referred to Mumia with a racial epithet because he's guilty, not because the judge is a bigot —I'll help you put that ****** away.

Defense attorneys collectively attested to the judge's willingness to flout the rule of law and courtroom procedures because they lie (lawyers are crooks anyway, except for prosecutors, they're saints and are never wrong).

Mumia's association with the Black Panthers was cited as proof of his criminality, despite his never being charged with or suspected of criminal behavior prior to his conviction, because the FBI never specifically targeted the Black Panthers for infiltration and disruption (COINTELPRO) and the police were never aware of it.

Mumia should die because no innocent men have ever been wrongly convicted, especially not Black men who have FBI files 500 pages thick.

Mumia is guilty because the ballistics disproving the official story that he was shot as the officer was falling down (at an upward angle) are a lie, planted by his cult followers.

Mumia is guilty because the Philadelphia PD has a reputation that is beyond reproach, there was never rampant, sickening, mind boggling corruption and abuse of power, and they only go after guilty perpetrators. The following is all a lie...

In 1973, a federal judge for the US District Court stated that police abuse occurred with such frequency in Philadelphia that it could not be "dismissed as rare, isolated instances" and that city officials did "little or nothing" to punish or prevent police abuse.

In 1979, the US Department of Justice filed a lawsuit against the then-mayor of Philadelphia, Frank Rizzo, and other city officials for condoning police brutality. The lawsuit listed 290 persons shot by the city's police officers between 1975 and 1979, the majority of whom were from ethnic minorities. During Frank Rizzo's eight years as mayor, fatal shootings by Philadelphia police officers increased by 20 per cent annually. In the year after he left office, 1980, fatal shootings declined 67 per cent. Mayor Rizzo appeared to tolerate police misconduct. In 1978, he told an audience of 700 police officers "Even when you're wrong, I'm going to back you".

Mumia should die because he has too many people who believe he deserves a new trial and that proves it is a cult of personality.

Mumia is guilty because 111 people waiting execution on death row have been released because they are actually innocent, there are no more left, they released them all.

Mumia's cult followers are wussies; those who insist on his guilt and relish the idea of legally sanctioned murder are really butch and emotionally mature.

Don't confuse him with facts. :evilgrin:

Martin

and you guys haven't come up with a single fact in the whole thread. Fact is, the jury decided the guy was guilty. I don't think he is entitled to a new trial based on the facts I've read. Facts as I read them are unequivocal: cop is dead by lead poisoning from a gun, Mumia had motive and opportunity and access to the gun at the exact time of the murder. Dem's da facts. The burden of proof was met at beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty, and the trial is over, you don't get a do-over, it isn't a game.

..."the trial is over, you don't get a do-over".

So much for the right of appeal. :eyes:

Remind me to never ask you for legal advice. I'd likely end up convicted of a crime I did not commit.

Martin

If you had me represent you in a criminal trial you would deserve to go to prison, I'm a civil trial lawyer. You know, the kind Republicans hate. Unless they need one. In which case they still hate us, but pay us handsomely.

My point was that you cannot reverse a trial on appeal simply because a lot to drooling children want a new trial because their cult leader wants them to agitate for it. You have to have what is called "reversible error." I've seen nothing in the Mumia case that comes close.

And yet, you want to play prosecutor (and executioner) in this case. Do us all a favor and stick to your field.

I have reviewed all of the information, too, BTW. I am at work, which is why it's not all at my fingertips. I happen to believe there is reasonable doubt, based on the trial transcripts and evidence that has come to light since the initial conviction.

Martin

P.S.: No one confesses to capital murder for the hell of it.

and I won't be doing you any favors by backing off on mine. By your logic, unless you are a criminal defense attorney, you have no right to an opinion on this? What nonsense. Trust me on this: stamping your little feet and demanding a do-over isn't going to get your Furher a new trial: reversible error under Pennsylvania law or a prompt habeas corpus petition with valid grounds are the only way to go.

And I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm well aware that your mind is far more closed on this subject than mine is. (And mine is pretty closed.)

I'm not disputing your right to hold your opinion, I'm mocking your cause (and a few other things). That's still my right in this country. If you don't like me having that right, you can try to get a Republican to ship me off to Gitmo. The reason I'm mocking your cause is because you losers have got sucked in by a charletan murderer and his "I don't remember anything because I was passed out" is just such a pathetic and obvious lie. It is such a childish lie, and so transparent. Yet you guys will believe it until your dying day, even if Mumia confesses posthumously. It's as perverse as believing that Nader can one day be President.

And wackos confess to capital murder all the time. The police do not release all the details to the public, and if the wacko does not know all the details, then that confession is viewed with extreme suspicion. Under undisputed law, an uncorrborated murder confession is not admissible.

Read some stories about hunting for serial killers. Police often hold back facts about the crimes because they know there will be a deluge of confessions and they want to be able to filter

High profile murders always have people confessing

when you read the facts of the case, it is hard to come to any other conclusion.
Sure, there is a lot of BS floating around planted by mumia, his laywers and his supporters, but the guy is plainly guilty.

He was there. It is absolutely absurd to say he didn't do it.

If Abu Jamal has been so horribly railroaded, why isn't the ACLU springing to his defense and providing him legal counsel? It seems like his case would be a perfect cause for the ACLU. Why isn't Ron Kuby his attorney of record? There are plenty of far left lawyers in this country who would no doubt love to represent Abu Jamal against the Man. Why the hell aren't they stepping up to the plate and doing so?

I still think that if Abu Jamal were an uneducated, inarticulate home boy, he'd have fried long before now, unnoticed and unmourned. That he has so many white leftist supporters says more about their cultural prejudice than it does his innocence or their sense of justice.

and doesn't realize the innocence of genius that is Mumia. Only a racist cannot be convinced down to the cockles of his redneck heart of the dazzeling beauty of this man's stunning innocence. And everyone knows that lawyers are only in it for the money.

(For the thinking impaired, please note sarcasm above.)

Mumia was shot during the incident. it was his freaking gun!! There are witnesses that said he did it.

People confess to every high profile murder case around. Mumia is guilty.

Others confess to every high profile murder that happens. I could confess to killing nicole brown Simpson and Ron Goldman and Lacy Peterson, but that does not mean I did it.

If Mumia was a political prisoner because someone wanted to silence him why would they allow him to go on the radio, write books, and in general make a martyr out of a relativly unknown Black panther?

F--- Mumia

I agree with Moore.

Liberal Democrats Normally Against the Death Penalty in All Instances, But Willing to Personally Suffocate Mumia With a Pillow, Just to Watch the Wussies Cry

How about Leonard Peltier?

but it's circumstances are similar from what I know. Basically from what I know, he claims it was a "thown down" and has maintained his innocence and exhausted his appeals and asks for a pardon from each successive President. I don't know if he is a journalist or if he took the stand. I do know that his personal efforts don't include a disgusting personality cult.

well i'd have to say i agree with moore on mumia, and to an extent, old what's his name up there above me ranting about it, but just not to that extreme....

mumia does deserve another trial... but he's probably guilty anyway. and i don't think his stealing the shine from all the real political prisoners locked up does anything but a general disservice.


as for peltier.... i don't think so. but even if he had killed them, i can't say i care particularly. perhaps those were the only two agents on the rez who hadn't been involved in coordinating and carrying out the murders of dozens of lakota and suppressing true democracy and supplanting in its place one planned and approved by the feds, but, i doubt it.... in which case, callous as it sounds, they got what they deserved.... shouldn't be fucking around on sovereign territory, waging continued war against native peoples.

<http://www.leonardpeltier.org>

This whole thread is morbidly humorous:evilgrin:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I'm sorry I don't see it.

Cruel yes.

Funny, definitely

I sense a man at the end of his tether

And you probably never will.

Martin

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Directed at anyone else -- only him. Why is that? If it's not race, what is it? Why does he get under your ... umm ... skin?

Really, though, it doesn't matter what you say. You exposed yourself already above, when you denied the right to appeal out of hand.

Some grasp of law you've got there. :eyes:

Martin

That's not what JS said is it?

Standards for appeal and retrial have to be met.

It would appear in this case that this has not adequately established.

You don't get a retrial on the basis that you want one.

You don't get around much, do you? He doesn't have anything to worry about from me. I'm against the death penalty even for Mumia, but I won't cry when it happens.

I have no right to grant or deny his appeals, out of hand or otherwise. I just don't accept the assertion of his cult followers.

As for your grasp of the law, I've just gotta ask, how's your writ of habeas corpus on Mumia's behalf coming along?

He has competent lawyers for that. He doesn't need me poking around. That said, I would guess that the people I work with will file another amicus brief when necessary.

Martin

You know, the one where you call me a ________, and I shove the insult right back at you because in the context, calling me a _______ clearly made you a ________ because it required an assumption for which there was no evidence, and when that particular assumption is make, it makes the accuser a ________.

For the record, I sure as heck didn't ask for the post to be removed.

I consider that kind of censorship in a spirited debate to be far more violence to our liberties than the death of Mumia.

You sure have a funny way of expressing your opposition to the DP:eyes:

5. Death to Mumia!

Edited on Tue Nov-18-03 02:38 AM by JackSwift
I'm ordinarily against the death penalty as a matter of principle ("I'm against the death penalty") . (I actualy worship as a deity a fellow who was wrongly convicted and executed.) But really, this Mumia guy wore out his celebrity welcome years ago. Let him take his appeals like all the other "wrongly convicted" death row inmates. This guy is sucking up attention that guys who have evidence they are innocent might actually benefit from.


And let's not have a retrial for Mumia, at least not a real one. Let's have a pretend retrial, where we close our eyes and play pretend, so that the supporters can have their fantasy and claim they were robbed again, just like the first time.

The cop killer Mumia got a trial the first time, and chose not to testify and thereby perjure himself. There's no do-overs simply because the losers (and I do mean losers) have consequences for their decisions.

Death to Mumia!!!! And the sooner the better.

"I'm against the death penalty"

Bwahahaha! You so funny.

Wait. Before you say you were just kidding...

JackSwift
8. No point at all


I am sick and tired of this guilty SOB forcing innocent death row inmates out of the public eye. He had a trial and was found guilty. His chief complaint is that he could now testify and change everything, when he deliberately chose to remain silent during his trial. I've heard the whole thing several times and its a load of crap. You get to make the choice of testify once, and only once, no do-overs.

Death to Mumia.

After this SOB is executed, the only retrials will be by tired historical societies reliving the youths of Mumia supporters. And then maybe death penalty opponents will take up the cause of a deserving inmate.

Death to Mumia. It will be worth compromising my prinicples here just to watch his supporters' lower lips tremble in outrage and finally have them SHUT UP! Cut his mike!

Wow. Again, "I'm against the death penalty", christ dude, take a pill or something.

Bloodlust? Sure a shit looks like it to me:-)

PS~ I'm not a Mumia "anything". I've got bigger fish to fry. I just wanted to point out ridiculous this all looks.

Rather than just hit and run?

Try me.

I don't see how the death penalty equitably applied is racist.

It's obviously racist now.

his conviction stems from the fact that he is black, rather than the evidence. There's some sort of assumption that "leftists" or "blacks" or "journalists" cannot commit murder by some law of physics and anyone that thinks so must be a "racist". It's racist to believe that someone can't be guilty of murder because of their skin color.

Race is an aggravating factor. I guess you think that Mumia's history in the Black Panther Party was motive, too. Oh well.

You and Judge Sabo seem to have something in common; both of you want to "fry the n----r" with all possible speed. The difference, however, is that he was sitting as the "impartial" (sic!) judge when he said this.

Martin

As a black man who fell for the Mumia myth back in '96, but decided to study the case and finally learn the truth, I find no racism in JackSwift's anger. I feel the same way about Timothy "Kill 'em while they sing songs in the day care" McVeigh. Do I have that anger because I'm a racist? He's white and I am black! JackSwift may be a cop, or maybe his father, mother, somebody close is a cop and he has extra disdain for cop killing thugs.....good for him! Mumia is guilty, whatever his skin color, and that's the bottom line.

His unequal approach to these issues is an issue. The fact that the judge in the case conspired with the prosecution to deny Mumia his constitutional rights is an issue. The fact that the prosecution successfully used Mumia's history with the Black Panthers as the basis for "motive" is an issue.

You are welcome to sing the praises of "learning the truth" (a point I dispute) all you want. These facts have not changed. Personally, I don't care if JackSwift is directly related to Faulkner, his gleeful desire to murder another human being is an issue -- indeed, it is THE issue here at this moment.

Martin

To point out the inequality being applied?

I just don't see it. JS has reviewed evidence and come to a different conclusion than you. Does that make him racist?

will you try to kill him yourself since you're so sure of his guilt?

When's he going to be freed? I hadn't read this morning's Left Wing Fantasy Intelligencer yet. Do you have a link?

I can hold him down and read him The Green Party platform. Normally I'm against both the death penalty and cruel and unusual punishment, but I'll make an exception.

but, then...

Really.

I've looked into it. I know there's a history of cops framing black men throughout our history, but I agree with Moore, it's likely he did it.

But I wonder if the whole FM movement hasn't been hijacked by the FBI or other COINTELPRO operations. Think about it. It's ripe for infiltration, if it hasn't been done already. Free Mumia is an issue that manages to divide US "on the Left" almost as much as Israel does. ENOUGH!

The Right Wing, FBI, BFEE, military-industrial whomever are aware of this, and I wouldnt' be surprised if it emerged some day that ANY one of THEM were actually the prime movers and financial backers of this "cause." Free Mumia annoys, scares, disillusions, and just plain pisses off enough well-meaning white people to the point where I truly think the movement's been taken over by COINTELPRO.

I wasn't at that last big protest march in DC last month, but from what I heard, many people were really turned off by all the attention that was diverted from protesting Bush and the Iraqi Invasion, but rather to the "Free Mumia" jerkoffs.

This is much like how Tucker Carlson always brings up Al Sharpton to "smear" the Democrats.

Enough!

Captain Mike

If I thought Mumia were innocent and not a sinister creep, I'd be all for getting him out, but he is a cop killer and as they said of Socrates, a corrupter of youth. Do I want these loser hijacking events I help organize to put this patently ridiculous cause front and center? Hell no.

The only thing anybody can say bad about Sharpton is that he believed Tawana Brawley and still does. Was and is he wrong? Probably. And he's probably too stubborn about it too. But his motives were pure in my opinion.

Listen to audio program on COINTELPRO (from Pacifica Radio program, Democracy Now): http://www.webactive.com/webactive/pacifica/demnow/dn970804.html

intro:
"Roughly 30 years ago, the Federal Bureau of Investigation began what it called the Counter Intelligence Program or COINTELPRO-- a vast national program that aimed to destroy left-wing and progressive political organizations emerging out of the African American, Native American, and Latino communities. Also targeted were student and youth groups that challenged the Vietnam War and the economic structure of American society.

The FBI launched major campaigns against Dr. Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, among others. Many in the Black Panther Party leadership were jailed and assassinated as were many leading organizers of the American Indian Movement."


UC Berkeley Library
Social Activism Sound Recording Project:
The Black Panther Party
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/pacificapanthers.html

Churchill, Ward. The COINTELPRO Papers: Documents From the FBI's Secret Wars Against Domestic Dissent
By Ward Churchill and Jim Vander Wall ; foreword by John Trudell ; preface by Brian Glick. Boston, MA : South End Press, c1990.

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU KNOW???

By the way, have you heard about the confession offered by someone else who said he shot and killed Faulkner? You still sure Mumia did it?

I can tell you that it is very difficult to be a black Democrat, run with my crowd and agree with the jury that Mumia is truly guilty. I was sucked into the Mumia movement (yes it's a movement all its own) back in 1996 knowing very little. After finally questioning a few things I jumped in and studied the case very hard as opposed to fighting the verdict very hard. I realized I had been duped by a cold blooded killer. However, I must bite my tongue around many friends if I am interested in keeping them. Unfortunately most black Democrats accept the Mumia myth as gospel. The man is guilty....not a question in my mind.

I'd never heard of it till I saw a protest at a state convention. It was poorly written and unconvincing, but I checked it out anyway. I came to the conclusion that he was a very intelligent and articulate and charismatic narcissist and a murderer. Kinda like W, 'cept for the articulate and "very" part.

I hang out with people who I disagree with all the time, so I don't keep my mouth shut to protect the feeble minded's delicate sensibilities.

Do I think that there are people out there who think that Mumia is guilty just because he's a black, leftist troublemaker (making them racist). Sure. But just because some racists think that a murderer must be guilty because he is black doesn't necessarily make him innocent.

Just so you know....I'm not a weak knee pansy when it comes to standing up for what I believe. I, too, argue my beliefs strongly when it comes to many issues. I was pummeled in a thread about "What's it like to be black in America?" by other blacks who think we must be victims all day every day in order to make progress. I have fought this with all I have as I believe that my heritage is one that makes it hard, but not impossible to do **anything** and I will NEVER allow professional race-baiters to tell me what it's like to be black in America and see racism around every corner. We can fight for justice as a CLASS and be successful. To fight a race-based war is wrong....for all involved.

Honestly, I tip-toe ONLY around this issue as it is CULT-LIKE and makes for draining fights that go nowhere with Mumia supporters, of which there are many in my neighborhood even though they know NOTHING about the man except that black "leaders" support him. Lap dogs.

can't feel what it is like to be in the minority in this country, and I do understand the value of friends. I've a number of black political allies (on my county central committee and other places) and they've never mentioned the Mumia thing. But they are very sophisticated operators and wouldn't put me on the spot, as they know I would probably not be very diplomatic. Heck, I'm not diplomatic when it comes to people in the room sowing discord. If I think someone is slowing sapping our strength, I come out and try to lance the boil right away, much to the annoyance of people who want to keep things sub-surface.

But from my point of view, this Mumia thing is so chickenshit. These dipwads want to hijack the whole Democratic Party and left wing movement: social security, medicare, peace, education, whatever. And for what? A fast talking cop killer? It never ceases to amaze me. So do I like to rub their noses in their stupidity? Unfortunately. The big thing in my county now the suburband soccer moms are infatuated with the Green party because it is their first political experience, and the Greens don't compromise and are so "pure" in their philosophy and have no power. So count your lucky stars. I've got to make nice with Greenies. In person. Not as JackSwift. Anonymity has its perks.

what makes you so sure? I mean, if he was surely guilty he'd be dead by now. If he was surely guilty, the judge wouldn't have to recast the sentence and purposefully ignore appeals.

He's so damn guilty that he'll probably be released within 10 years.

that's how I'm so sure.

So how's that appeal going? It's been what, two decades? Rumor has it that he will be free any day, I read it in one of your above posts. The appellate court is so certain of innocence, they are going to skip over reverse and remand and go straight to freeing him? I hope he doesn't have to wait too long.

Say, has the Green party taken a stand on Mumia? I know they are so pure of heart. Maybe the Greens would like to lend him their credibility.

I guess justice isn't being served then because he's still alive.

and if they don't execute him, I'll get my wish.

As for the not Green part, congratulations. I'm going to go eat some crow!

are out shilling for a common street thug who has built a myth around himself.
Mumia is as guilty as sin.
There are many black males in prison for Marijuana charges, and their voice deserves to be heard more than Mumia.

Or at the very most it was second degree.

Classic Moore, really, especially when he said in the interview that it came from the people that show up at his events with Free Mumia signs.

I think there's a real issue there about his trial, and Moore said that too, but his comment was about the movement, which does deserve to be looked at in a humorous way once in a while.

I once stopped and talked to a woman on State Street in Madison, WI, handing out Mumia literature because I was curious about it. I was obviously aware of the movement, but I didn't know any details. I was shocked, really seriously shocked, this activist couldn't even give be the basic idea of the case. She couldn't even tell me if she herself believed he shot the man, or if that was an important part of the case. She in short didn't know why she cared about the case.

But like I say, I believe there's a real issue there somewhere, I just think there's something about the movement that deserves to be satirized, big time.

Mummia is a guy who`s on death row in Pennsylvania

Wasn't his death sentence changed to life in prison?

And he was accused of killing a cop

No. He was CONVICTED of killing a cop.

a crime that warrants the DP.

There was lots of evidence that suggested that he didn't have the state of mind required for first degree murder warranting the DP.

to the Free Mumia crowd. To them it is not an issue of wether he deserves the death penalty or not. But that he is innocent and should be released from prison.

and it's my impression that, regardless of whether he pulled the trigger or not, there isn't any evidence at all which justifies the deat penalty.

his death sentence overturned and converted to life in prison?

have lost track of it since then.

If the DP sentence wasn't warranted and it has been commuted to life in prison, that life in prison sentence would still be too much. He should be sentenced for the crime the evidence supports beyond a reasonable doubt, which is a crime much less serious than the one for which he was convicted.

I had sort of peripherally heard about Mumia for a while...and then noticed in the 2000 campaign that freeing him was an official plank in the Green Party (USA) platform.

At that point it was evident that whatever the merits of the case for a re-trial that there was a serious problem with his sway over a large number of leftists.

I am sick of this guy. He killed Faulkner in cold blood and is now trying to play political prisoner.
The evidence is clear---no matter what BS his supporters and laywers put out, he is guilty as hell.
Fuck him

hmmm....

Mumia probably killed that guy

Yeah, but you don't condemn someone to death on a "probably."

Mummia is a guy who`s on death row in Pennsylvania, who actually wrote a best-selling book and was a commentator on NPR for a while, on "All Things Considered." And he was accused of killing a cop, and that`s why he`s on death row.

I think that Mumia was a radio commentator and a talented writer and social critic first... which led to the accusation that he killed a cop, which then led to his being on death row. I also think that had Mumia not been a radio commentator and a talented writer and social critic he would not have been accused of killing a cop and he would not be on death row.

Now, I`m against the death penalty.

Excellent. Then even if Michael Moore believes that Mumia is guilty, he also believes that a death sentence is not appropriate for Mumia or for anyone else. It would be encouraging if Michael Moore would take a closer look at the rules of evidence and the time limits that are arbitrarily set for presenting new evidence to the courts. Because I think that if someone can find evidence that proves innocence, or even shows reasonable doubt to a jury, that person should be able to present that evidence even if the original trial was held fifty or sixty or seventy years ago!

This is a human life we're talking about here. Mistakes happen, but they need to be corrected... not dismissed out of hand.

Support a cause against the death-penalty that we can win...

Mumia shouldn't die, but there are alot of others on death row that are far more deserving of being freed then him.


So free the West Memphis Three!

Three kids who got railroaded by the local cops and da, one is on death row and the other two have life sentences. Read the evidence and you will clearly see the injustice. We can and will get these men free.


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